My dog killed my cat

telecaster

We've 2 dogs (twin female labrador crosses, aged 5) and now 2 cats down from 3 yesterday.

The bigger of our 2 dogs (the other was the runt of the the litter), yesterday turned on our very old cat, aged about 15 and pretty much on her last legs anyway.

The dog swung her round the place leaving puncture wounds and in a matter of seconds had done too much damage for the cat to survive before my wife intervened. My wife has had the cat since she was a kid, so you can imagine how upset and angry she is.

The 2 dogs and 3 cats had lived in broad harmony until yesterday's incident. There was the ocassional hiss and bark and chase as they established a pecking order and tested its boundaries sometimes, but never a wound inflicted or anything you'd worry about, bar one exception about 3 years ago when the bigger dog turned on her sister in a very aggressive way. I was onhand and intervened, they were best pals again a few minutes later.

Both dogs sleep in the house at night and are in and out of the house to a big garden each day. The 'killer dog' really is a big pet, she is very affectionate and obedient. However we have now had 2 serious 'out of character' incidents from her. We have 2 young kids, also a baby due later in the year. I'm concerned that our lovely pet may not be the loving family dog we believed she was.

My thinking on it is that the dog understands her place in the hierarchy of our family, she is above all other animals but below all of the people. She defers to our kids (she will sit and wait on their command) and to myself and my wife. She has never shown any aggression to a human.

My wife's not convinced. Maybe I'm not convinced either.

Thoughts?

Sappa

It's an out of character incident for the dog.
We expect way too much from our loyal
Pets and we seem horrified if they show any out of set character reaction.
Think about it the dog is taken from it's family,disciplined,made to obey your rules,robbed of it's freedom and if it shows any sign of disobedience people think right I got to put it down now it snappped at a person,the dog has off moments also.
Look into some obedience training,horrible and all what happened to your cat don't act on emotion and the dog did not intentionally wake up and think right I'm going to nail that cat today.animals need constant direction and you should really look at a few classes and I believe this will solve any worries you may have.

Jimmy Bottlehead

I don't have any advice. I'm just to sorry to hear this happened
Hope your wife is doing ok.

LeinsterDub

2 out of character incidents is 2 too many, what happens when one of the kids decide to pull out of the dog's tail for 5 minutes? I can't think the cat did much to annoy the dog and would certainly think young kids can push a pet much further

seamus

She's a dog at the end of the day. An animal. We can train them to obey our rules, but we shouldn't expect them to understand the rules any more than we should expect them to not be an animal.

A dog who shows aggression towards other animals isn't automatically a risk to humans (and indeed vice-versa). Dogs do understand that you are not a dog, while in many cases dogs will "accept" cats in the home, in some cases the dog simply accepts their existence begrudgingly rather than being affectionate with the cat.

I'm very sorry to hear about your wife's cat. It's not a nice way to lose any pet, even worse when the damage has been done by one of your own.

Is the dog neutered? Does she get any preferential treatment from any of the humans - sitting up on couches, being fed scraps or treats, etc?

I would see no particular reason to be concerned that she will turn on any of the kids. But as she's a dog that's probably 30ish kilos in weight, I think it goes without saying that the dog and the kids should never be left unsupervised until the child is 10 or 12 years of age.

mikehn

Hi
My sympathy for your problem. I am a dog lover and have been all my life.
We have lost a couple of dogs over the years and it has been really upsetting as basically they are part of our family unit. We also have a cat/dog situation and there have been spats but only verbal, I would however have a serious concern with your situation. This agressive behaviour may be totally out of character for your dog, perhaps he was reacting to a particular set of circumstances, but what if a similar set of triggers occur say in 12 months time when your infant is crawling around the floor in the dogs vicinity!!! the question is are you willing to take the chance. Personally I would not, I would look at getting a suitable new home for your dog.
Dont forget that the arrival of a new baby is going to affect the family dynamic with a lot of attention going to the new arrival, your dog could regard the new baby as a threat to his place in the pecking order and seek to put the baby "in his place" at some stage with tragic consequences.

gozunda

Sorry for the loss of your pet - especially as it was an old and venerable member of your family.

On the topic of the attack and some of the previous points that posters have made I believe the following may be relevant

Labradors have been involved in a number of aggressive attacks on humans / children in the past this is not unknown behaviour in the breed

Dogs tend to see all humans AND other animals as part of a pack. Their position in this pack will often dictate their position and behaviour to other pack members as shown by its aggresive reaction to the cat

Your labrador would appear to be in position of pack leader under your wife and yourself

The dog will not differentiate your children (esp young children) from other pack members

I would be very very wary of keeping this dog in its present environment due to its known history.

Better the poor cat served as a warning than for the dog to turn on a toddler who unintentionally annoys it someday

Better be safe than sorry

Sappa

mikehn wrote: »

Hi
My sympathy for your problem. I am a dog lover and have been all my life.
We have lost a couple of dogs over the years and it has been really upsetting as basically they are part of our family unit. We also have a cat/dog situation and there have been spats but only verbal, I would however have a serious concern with your situation. This agressive behaviour may be totally out of character for your dog, perhaps he was reacting to a particular set of circumstances, but what if a similar set of triggers occur say in 12 months time when your infant is crawling around the floor in the dogs vicinity!!! the question is are you willing to take the chance. Personally I would not, I would look at getting a suitable new home for your dog.
Dont forget that the arrival of a new baby is going to affect the family dynamic with a lot of attention going to the new arrival, your dog could regard the new baby as a threat to his place in the pecking order and seek to put the baby "in his place" at some stage with tragic consequences.

Op this is pure scaremongering,disregard it.

tk123

No disrespect but there seems to be a trend with threads like this (dog biting etc) where people are analysing pack theory/order/asserting dominance etc, they try to sort it themselves and it blows up in their faces.

If the dog is acting out of character your first stop is the vets to have any medical issues ruled out. After that head to http://apdt.ie/ and get in contact with a qualified behaviourist. Would you let me look at one of your kids if I changed my username to TK123 MD? - NO (well I hope not lol ) - step up as "pack leader" and get some professional help.



PS congrats on the baba

gozunda

tk123 wrote: »

No disrespect but there seems to be a trend with threads like this (dog biting etc) where people are analysing pack theory/order/asserting dominance etc, they try to sort it themselves and it blows up in their faces.

If the dog is acting out of character your first stop is the vets to have any medical issues ruled out. After that head to http://apdt.ie/ and get in contact with a qualified behaviourist. Would you let me look at one of your kids if I changed my username to TK123 MD? - NO (well I hope not lol ) - step up as "pack leader" and get some professional help.

Hear what your saying there but the facts are....

- Dog attacked other dog

- Same dog attacked and killed other family pet cat

Dog IS exhibiting both aggressive and dominant behaviour

The OP clearly loves his pets

but the 'pet' in question is not a child or kid as referred to above
Does not take 'an expert' to decide what the safest course of action is

No-one here is 'looking at the dog' the OP has clearly stated what happened

IMo the problem with such replies is that they assume that such behaviour requires large amonuts of cash and or psychobabble thrown at the problem

seamus

gozunda wrote: »

Does not take 'an expert' to decide what the safest course of action is

Perhaps not an expert, but it does require someone who knows what they're talking about.
Bland theories about packs and dominance aren't a substitute for a qualified and experienced assessment.
You wouldn't bring a sick child to a witch doctor, so I don't know why people put such high value in pop theories about dogs that they hear on TV.

mitosis

OP, I am going to step outside the seeming boundaries of this forum. What you have is an unpredictable animal in your house. You need to get rid of it lest you have another, worse incident.

The attitude of posters here is way too "California" in my opinion - behavioural therapists my arse. It's a dog. And in your case a potentially very dangerous one. I am not allowed to tell you it should be destroyed, but you need to put it where it can no longer do harm.

tk123

gozunda wrote: »

IMo the problem with such replies is that it presumes that such behaviour requireslarge amonuts of cash and or psychobabble thrown at the problem

IMO the problem with your reply is that some of us don't see our pets as disposable things we get rid of when there's a problem. If the dog is insured a behavioural assessment will be covered - It'll cost less to see the behaviourist than getting it pts. It could be in pain without the OP realising.

tk123

seamus wrote: »

You wouldn't bring a sick child to a witch doctor,

:eek: HEY!!!

seamus

mitosis wrote: »

OP, I am going to step outside the seeming boundaries of this forum. What you have is an unpredictable animal in your house. You need to get rid of it lest you have another, worse incident.

All animals are inherently unpredictable.

Seriously, anyone who thinks that any dog can be 100% "predictable" is fooling themselves and is at one stage or another going to have an "incident".

The key is what you do after the incident. If you destroy or rehome the dog, then you learn nothing and the same thing will eventually happen again with another animal.

I would nearly 100% guarantee you that if the OP "got rid" of the offending dog, then his second dog will change and will end up attacking one of the cats or doing something else "unpredictable".

gozunda

seamus wrote: »

Perhaps not an expert, but it does require someone who knows what they're talking about.
Bland theories about packs and dominance aren't a substitute for a qualified and experienced assessment.
You wouldn't bring a sick child to a witch doctor, so I don't know why people put such high value in pop theories about dogs that they hear on TV.

Its a dog as the OP has pointed out - Didn't read that he kept his children as pets from the details provided in his post.

Also see the facts of what happened are somehow theorteical. But that applied theory is ok....What do you think behavioural therapists actually do - wave a magic wand and make it all lovely dovey doo???

seamus

gozunda wrote: »

Its a dog as the OP has pointed out - Didn't read that he kept his children as pets from the details provided in his post.

So because it's a dog that suddenly makes it OK to take advice from anyone regardless of their experience or qualifications?

Also see the facts of what happened are somehow theorteical. But that applied theory is ok....What do you think behavioural therapists actually do - wave a magic wand and make it all lovely dovey doo???

If this person is a proper professional, they will have studied the theory, achieved relevant certification and have relevant experience.

This will give them the skills to properly assess the dog and provide proper advice to the owner on training plans and other activities to gain more control over the dog. Or they may assess that the dog has behavioural issues which are beyond the OP's ability to control and recommend rehoming the dog with someone else.

Talking to people who "just wouldn't risk it", or who've claim to have spent fifty years rearing collies to chase sheep, is no substitute to getting proper advice from someone who knows what they're talking about.

The problem is that most of the time people approach this as a problem with the dog that needs to be fixed, when in reality it's a problem in the dog's environment which needs to be adjusted.

gbee

I'd see if I could get rid of the bitch, in this animal thread, I would refer to children as such and as such I would be a little concerned.

Your bitch may have killed the old and dying cat just because it was old and dying, nature never goes too far away.

Your bitch might have a tumour on the brain, causing sudden aggressive mood changes ~ time to see a professional on that one.

In any event your bitch has gone through a change and I'd advice professional help, in the meantime, I'd keep the children away from the animals.

telecaster

Thanks all for the spectrum of views. I am grateful for your counsel, sympathies and good wishes to my family.

On the 'dog behaviourist' topic. We living at the Cavan end of California consulted such an individual 5 years ago when we took the two puppies in to our home from the shelter which was boarding them after their pregnant mother was abandoned.

The expert advised us on many aspects of how we could best enjoy our dogs, and she offered a lifetime consultancy service after that one visit at no extra charge. We have had cause to call her on a few occasions since and her input has been very helpful. She is a person who has given a great part of her life to understanding dog behaviour, human behaviour and the overlap of the two. It was a modest amount of money well spent in my opinion. I acknowledge that had I followed all her advice to the letter there is a greater chance the cat would have passed more peacefully.

As well as my seeking opinion here, my wife also contacted the Dog Behaviourist.

She said we have to acknowledge that the dog has killed twice (I did not mention earlier that she had killed hens - I didnt think much of it, perhaps I should have) and that steps have to be taken to control her. The dog should be muzzled around people and kept in a secure run at other times.

We have been too liberal and trusting of our dogs. Not that we were ever going to allow a toddler to yank their tails etc, we should have been keeping a bit more space between our children and our dogs.

I think it comes down to managing space, controlling the dogs presence and restricting their ability to attack (however unlikely) by appropriate muzzling.

Above all we've had a reminder that dogs live by a very different morality to humans.

Our dog will not be re-homed or put down. She will have owners who now understand her better and are taking the steps to manage her better.

gozunda

seamus wrote: »

gozunda wrote: »

Its a dog as the OP has pointed out - Didn't read that he kept his children as pets from the details provided in his post.

So because it's a dog that suddenly makes it OK to take advice from anyone regardless of their experience or qualifications?

Also see the facts of what happened are somehow theorteical. But that applied theory is ok....What do you think behavioural therapists actually do - wave a magic wand and make it all lovely dovey doo???

If this person is a proper professional, they will have studied the theory, achieved relevant certification and have relevant experience...

Way to much psychobabble....the dog has shown itself to be aggressive on more than one occasion. It's not nuclear bloody physics....

Jelly2

OP, I'm sorry for your loss, it was a horrible thing to happen. But I'm really surprised at some of the responses on this thread. My sister's dog killed three pet hens a while ago, and we never thought that this meant that he might be a danger to humans. Our terrier would kill any cat that she got her teeth into, and we don't assume that this means that she might try to do the same to humans. Our dogs occasionally have a 'to-do', which can seem quite vicious to the onlooker, but they have never tried to do the same to us, and we don't assume that they would.
It is not logical to assume that the way in which a dog behaves towards other animals is the way that they will behave to humans, adults or children.

seamus

telecaster wrote: »

We have been too liberal and trusting of our dogs.

This happens to everyone at one stage or another before they get a bit of a wake-up call.
I imagine even the most experienced handler/trainers have at one point or another found themselves getting surprised by the behaviour of a dog that they had become a little too relaxed about.
So long as you can identify this and remember to snap yourself out of it when it starts happening again (and it will ), then you should be able to have a happy and shock-free life with any dog.

Best of luck.

seamus

gozunda wrote: »

It's not nuclear bloody physics....

You're right, it's not. It's far more complicated than that.

gbee

Jelly2 wrote: »

It is not logical to assume that the way in which a dog behaves towards other animals is the way that they will behave to humans, adults or children.

Yes it is and with children in the mix, the owner may have no choice but to re-home. Things will be different from now on and the bitch may grow more and more resentful.

MrReynholm

I see the "herpa durr, dat dog done needs to go derpa derp hyuck hyuck" hicks have arrived to the thread surprisingly quickly today.

OP, get the dog's behaviour assessed and then take any advise the behaviourist has to offer. It's unfortunate that it happened but it's something that can't be ruled out when you've a dog and cat living together which is why most advice will lean towards never letting them be alone together unless the cat has its own safe place to run to in case the dog snaps at it.

Best of luck with it.

Jelly2

gbee wrote: »

Yes it is and with children in the mix, the owner may have no choice but to re-home. Things will be different from now on and the bitch may grow more and more resentful.

Why it is logical?

MrReynholm

I just saw your update there, OP.

Run sounds like a good idea. You could build it yourself as a project or pay someone to but it's not a big issue to get one together one way or another.

granturismo

telecaster wrote: »

She said we have to acknowledge that the dog has killed twice ...and that steps have to be taken to control her. The dog should be muzzled around people and kept in a secure run at other times.

We have been too liberal and trusting of our dogs. ..

Our dog will not be re-homed or put down. She will have owners who now understand her better and are taking the steps to manage her better.

We had 2 litter sisters who started fighting when they were 2, had them neutered and they started fighting again at about 4 or 5 years old. The most severest damage was a coin sized tear on a leg requiring stitches on two occasions presumably while in a defensive position. We tried several options and eventually we decided to get rid of the dog causing the damage but no one would take her (surprise, surprise).

We had been treating the injured dog as the dominant one because she always investigated other dogs, while the other stood back. She also defended the other dog by barking when other dogs got aggressive. Once we reversed roles and reinforced their pecking order in the family the fighting stopped. Whenever they had to be left alone in the garden we put the aggressor on a shoulder harness and a chain with a swivel link that gave her access to her kennel and 3/4 of the garden. This lasted for about 3 years because we didint want anymore vet bills and gradually took her off the harness. Was the harness cruel - some might say but at least the dog wasnt put down and the dogs could enjoy each others company and now submissive dog could escape if there was any trouble.

They lived til 14 years of age and maybe had the odd growl but continued to enjoy each other's company and slept beside each other every day and night. They never growled at a child.

Mo60

Well done to the OP for not having the kneejerk reaction of rehoming, Pts. etc.

You obviously realise you have made mistakes in the past and are willing to try your best to rectify the situation. Hope it turns out right for you.

Tarkus

Any doubt at all when it comes to your children should give you your answer. Err on the side of caution if anything at all doesn't sit well with you, OP.

Good luck...

gozunda

seamus wrote: »

You're right, it's not. It's far more complicated than that.

Member of the fluffy brigade?

Dog attacks OPs other Dog

Same Dog savages and kills chickens

Ditto Dog savages and kills OPs pet OAP cat (What about the dead pet cat? - I see little or no concern in most of 'de poor doggie replies' tbh)

OP is justifiably concerned for his young children and new baby

Response: 'oh de poor doggy - quick get the psychoanalyst' - really quite unbelievable! :mad:

The OP is absolutely correct to be deeply concerned - there are bad / nasty / aggresive pets out there that have nothing to do with their environment and it is not always possible to take them back from this behaviour NO matter the psychobabble....