PILOT TRAINING COLLEGE(PTC) GOING OUT OF BUSINESS

Lustrum

Just watched the bit there on the news from last night. In fairness, as ridiculous and all as what they're trying to get is, you have to hand it to them for not letting whoever is writing the press releases speak on the telly!

I just hope that those parent who are putting time and (presumably) money into this know what they're getting into. While I admire their persistence in making sure their training is completed, it is a much longer road than just getting your licence. As someone else said, if Ryanair won't look at them that rules out about 80% of their chance of getting a job when they're finished. Are they going to get back onto the RTE contact when the training is finished and claim that no-one told them there were no jobs??

If any PTC students are reading this, start doing your research now (Pprune, flight global, linkedin etc) and get talking to people. And maybe this time, really listen to what those with experience have to say

donkey balls

Whats with the story that FR wont look at anyone that trained with PTC what are the reasons behind it?Also do these lads know that there are loads of people who have managed to get their MEIR/MCC and stil cannot get a job my mate happens to be one,And accodring to a mate of mine who is an FO with FR seemingly they have over 2000 C.V on file.

king2

bluecode wrote: »

Oh dear God, just watching the news now on the subject. I called them naive, now I know it. They are incredibly naive.

Varadkar the FG rottweiller will properly tell them they will get nothing more from the government than sympathy.

Srs123, fair enough. Actually you're right, PTCs training was alway quite good. They had good staff, personal friends among them. But they were always overpriced for what they offered. Plus they were past masters at marketing which is good if they actually delivered. This failure was inevitable. The whole 'Pilot Training College' was an illusion. The attempt was to give the impression that it was something like going to Trinity or whatever. That's the market they sold to and we can see it in the attitude of some of the students. It's as if they were attending a pilot university and somehow they had passed some test to attain this elite status.

Meanwhile back in the real world, we have the likes of NFC and Atlantic in Ireland and plenty of others in the UK and elsewhere who been around for years. Short on marketing they just deliver training for pilots.

One thing though, even if the government coughed up to finish their training. They will simply join the ranks of the other unemployed flight school graduates. Ryanair won't touch them, neither will Aer Arann.

I would suggest it's time to let go the 'dream'. Go and get a real job.

Atlantic are fairly big into the marketing as well. I note that they are now calling themselves "Atlantic Flight Training Academy" Academy? How cheesy.They also spend alot of time on seminars. Their "CFI" spends more time on marketing, seminars and meeting prospective students than he does on Flight Training.It also states on their web site that he is an experienced airline captain with thousands of hrs. This is strange as the guy has never been rated on a multi crew aircraft. They have also started to offer integrated courses.....

bombs away

king2 wrote: »

Atlantic are fairly big into the marketing as well. I note that they are now calling themselves "Atlantic Flight Training Academy" Academy? How cheesy.They also spend alot of time on seminars. Their "CFI" spends more time on marketing, seminars and meeting prospective students than he does on Flight Training.It also states on their web site that he is an experienced airline captain with thousands of hrs. This is strange as the guy has never been rated on a multi crew aircraft. They have also started to offer integrated courses.....

Yes but the difference is that Atlantic have a very good reputation, have had for years. Whereas the dog on the street could have told ya PTC were chancers.

Xpro

donkey balls wrote: »

Whats with the story that FR wont look at anyone that trained with PTC what are the reasons behind it?Also do these lads know that there are loads of people who have managed to get their MEIR/MCC and stil cannot get a job my mate happens to be one,And accodring to a mate of mine who is an FO with FR seemingly they have over 2000 C.V on file.

Its not just the PTC students, even tho that would be their style. Word on the street is that only foreign pilots are taken onboard at this stage.
Simple reason is because of the whimps constantly complaining and moaning and looking for their rights and Mr. O`Leary is just not taking it in anymore.:(

edgeworthless

Copied from a pprune post I read earlier today

Firstly,
I do believe that way back in 2003/4 when PTC was born and yes I was there, that Mike Edgeworth had the belief, vision and intention to create the best Pilot Training Facility in Ireland and hopefully the world. Instead of teaching from the garden shed at the corner of the airfield as was the norm in Ireland then.
This would have happened had he let the people, (some of whom were very talented) do the job he paid them for and not personally micro managed everything to the point of destruction. Ego and money then took over with the usual predictable result.:(

Right now it is a sad state of affairs for all the students, families and honest staff members who all worked hard to help make the promised dreams come true. At one time PTC were the best, for a few months in 2009 under the wisdom and leadership of Nick Clarke and Ciaran Doyle the team cared about the students and the training they received. Everyone involved worked hard to develop safe and professional pilots whilst still providing an unforgettable once in a lifetime experience. Any student from that time will confirm this.
….

What happened? Edgeworthless happened!

chapter 2 to follow:E

moonship

Su Campu wrote: »

That guy is every bit as bad as the head of PTC himself!!

Anyway, I note that this morning the PTC site is gone.

www.pilottrainingcollege.com

strange that http://www.skytrace.ie still live...

Kumsheen

Well if i was a potential Airline looking to employ pilots, i would remember some of the faces and names from the media campaign and steer well clear of them in the future.
Do they not think that some future employers might view them as potential troublemakers?

It's a bit like someone who takes a previous employer to court for whatever, and get's a settlement. They are now tarnished with this as a negative point on their employment history for future employers.

A very naive campaign if you ask me. They have lost any sympathy i had for them.
But I'm sure others (IALPA perhaps ?) may be pushing them down this road. But it's PTC they need to protest. Not the taxpayer !

The IAA are not responsible for the financial collapse of a flight school. Let me put it to you another way, Irish Airlines are licensed by the IAA, so if one of them goes to the wall too are the IAA responsible for this too?

saspeir

Maybe somebody in the know could clarify this issue?

As far as I can make out the IAA make a cursory glance at the financial health of a flight organisation only for the purposes of flight safety. Obviously if an organisation were in difficulty they may make cuts in maintenance or other such critical areas. It is for this reason and this reason only that the IAA seek the flight organisation to present certificates from finanical professionals to say they're above board. As far as I know the same goes for airlines but this isn't with view to stopping them going bust as was nearly the case with Aer Arann not too long ago.

Maybe, some of the PTC students in the action group (whom I'm sure have researched this :rolleyes:) could give some insight?

Kumsheen

saspeir wrote: »

Maybe somebody in the know could clarify this issue?

As far as I can make out the IAA make a cursory glance at the financial health of a flight organisation only for the purposes of flight safety. Obviously if an organisation were in difficulty they may make cuts in maintenance or other such critical areas. It is for this reason and this reason only that the IAA seek the flight organisation to present certificates from finanical professionals to say they're above board. As far as I know the same goes for airlines but this isn't with view to stopping them going bust as was nearly the case with Aer Arann not too long ago.

Maybe, some of the PTC students in the action group (whom I'm sure have researched this :rolleyes:) could give some insight?

Well you just have to just look at all the private airlines and flight schools across the world that have gone bust in the past. I didn't see any of their governments bailing out creditors afterwards.
All were licensed by National authorities and many had grants and subsidies from Government agencies too. How somebody can translate that into liability i just do not know.

Bobinkerry

Kumsheen wrote: »

Well if i was a potential Airline looking to employ pilots, i would remember some of the faces and names from the media campaign and steer well clear of them in the future.
Do they not think that some future employers might view them as potential troublemakers?
It's a bit like someone who takes a previous employer to court for whatever, and get's a settlement. They are now tarnished with this as a negative point on their employment history for future employers.
A very naive campaign if you ask me. They have lost any sympathy i had for them.
But I'm sure others (IALPA perhaps ?) may be pushing them down this road. But it's PTC they need to protest. Not the taxpayer !
The IAA are not responsible for the financial collapse of a flight school. Let me put it to you another way, Irish Airlines are licensed by the IAA, so if one of them goes to the wall too are the IAA responsible for this too?

Yl


You're right, the IAA and government are not responsible,i can't understand why these lads n parents are protesting outside government buildings, instead of where they should be = waterford ptc and finding where edgeworth is!!!
Instead there trying to get tax payers money!! So in there mind, if ryanair,aerlingus,or nfc,atlantic etc etc went under, all the pilots blame that on the IAA aswell???NO! It's actually a bit sad.
But where is edgeworth??? Now go find him for you're money guys :-)

Jocry

So it appears that there's a demonstration planned outside the IAA building tomorrow on D'Olier Street!!

I guess the students, parents, etc will be voicing their distaste at the whole process. It should be fun, and I get a front row ticket to see how it will goes down.....

ps. I dont work for the IAA

Jocry

So it appears that there's a demonstration planned outside the IAA building tomorrow on D'Olier Street!!

I guess the students, parents, etc will be voicing their distaste at the whole process. It should be fun, and I get a front row ticket to see how it will goes down.....

ps. I dont work for the IAA

saspeir

Support PTC Career Robbed Trainee Pilots - 17th July wrote:

Announcement from the Pilot Training College Action Group

Picket for Justice by the Pilot Training College Action Group is going ahead on Wednesday 18th July at midday outside Dail Eireann

Minister Varadkar has promised to meet a represesentative group, but not on the day itself, but within a short period of time

We are also asking Minister Ruari Quinn to consider that our sons/daughters Education has been taken away overnight.

If this happened in any other 3rd level College in Ireland, there would be a massive protest by the students. The Pilot Training College cost at least 10 times the cost of any Irish 3rd Level College.

The vast majority of parents/trainee pilots took out massive loans to fund their education

The trainee pilots were extremely motivated and proud of their aspiring careers in this , an area of Science and Technology, which the Government says its focusing on.

THE IRISH AVIATION AUTHORITY ( A STATE BODY) in accordance with JAR (Joint Aviation Requirements Flight Crew Licencing) MUST satisfy itself that Flight Training Organisation's have SUFFICIENT FUNDING available to conduct TRAINING to the approved standards REFERENCE JAR (JOINT AVIATION REQUIREMENTS FLIGHT CREW LICENCING REGULATIONS )

THE IRISH AVIATION AUTHORITY AUDITED THE PILOT TRAINING COLLEGE IN OCTOBER 2011 AND GAVE THEM A CLEAN BILL OF HEALTH FOR ANOTHER YEAR.

WE ARE ASKING THE GOVERNMENT TO ENSURE THAT EACH INDIVIDUAL TRAINEE PILOT WHO WAS PRIVATELY FUNDED CAN FINISH THEIR TRAINING WITHOUT ANY ADDITIONAL COST.

Desperate.

Tenger

I think the wording of that document missed the point that the 'IAA gave PTC a clean bill of health' in relation to training and standards. i doubt that the IAA were looking at their accounts.

The document also alludes to these students 'losing their education' having paid 10 times more than other Irish 3rd level students. While I feel for the financial and emotional losses of the students, going to a 'private' expensive 3rd level institution like PTC is a choice not a right.

Sorry guys and girls. Hopefully you get another chance to follow your dreams.

CatFromHue

"THE IRISH AVIATION AUTHORITY ( A STATE BODY) in accordance with JAR (Joint Aviation Requirements Flight Crew Licencing) MUST satisfy itself that Flight Training Organisation's have SUFFICIENT FUNDING available to conduct TRAINING to the approved standards REFERENCE JAR (JOINT AVIATION REQUIREMENTS FLIGHT CREW LICENCING REGULATIONS )

THE IRISH AVIATION AUTHORITY AUDITED THE PILOT TRAINING COLLEGE IN OCTOBER 2011 AND GAVE THEM A CLEAN BILL OF HEALTH FOR ANOTHER YEAR."

Is this true? (about the sufficient funding)

jasonb

I also wouldn't count PTC as a '3rd Level College' ( not like how they mean, i.e. comparing it to UCD or Trinity etc. ) and the reason why it's 'at least 10 times more expensive' is the 'other' Colleges don't qualify you as a Pilot...

J.

bkehoe

jasonb wrote: »

I also wouldn't count PTC as a '3rd Level College' ( not like how they mean, i.e. comparing it to UCD or Trinity etc. ) and the reason why it's 'at least 10 times more expensive' is the 'other' Colleges don't qualify you as a Pilot...

J.

No traditional flight school like PTC is a third level college. If the students had applied through the CAO to an aviation course accredited with a third level institution which then placed them with PTC then maybe there would be a case to answer but in this case the government & the IAA has absolutely no responsibility for what's happened here. It's a private matter between a consenting adult and a limited company to whatever terms of contract was agreed and signed by both parties.

I haven't seen or heard of any picketing outside PTC in Waterford...why not? Is it because they believe that the government will roll over and give them some concession towards the completion of training if they keep the publicity thing going? Paying for their flights was certainly a start, they must believe that a bit more pushing and they might get somewhere?

I've been staying quiet on this thread as what has happened to the PTC students is quite similar to what happened to me and more-so other friends/colleagues a few years ago with Sigmar and the actions of this group of PTC students is quite frankly disappointing to see and absolutely unprofessional. My initial reaction when I saw the news of PTCs closure was that of pity for the students and remembering the varying levels of difficulty when it has happened to friends but now I'm angered when I see their expectations of free training. Even the standard of grammar in their 'press releases' is a joke!

When Sigmar restructured the IAA were very supportive and helpful in what they're appointed to do - ensure the flying aspects of the course were all adhered to and when ultimately the Integrated course approval was pulled they ensured that all our training was completely credited and ensured thats some students were able to transfer to Oxford and ensured that our ATPL exams would be accepted by the UK CAA and so on. None of us even considered blaming any government agency.

These students should be chasing PTC, protesting in Waterford, finding Mr Edgeworth, just like what any other person would do who's lost a lot of money on a business deal.

saspeir

CatFromHue wrote: »

"THE IRISH AVIATION AUTHORITY ( A STATE BODY) in accordance with JAR (Joint Aviation Requirements Flight Crew Licencing) MUST satisfy itself that Flight Training Organisation's have SUFFICIENT FUNDING available to conduct TRAINING to the approved standards REFERENCE JAR (JOINT AVIATION REQUIREMENTS FLIGHT CREW LICENCING REGULATIONS )

THE IRISH AVIATION AUTHORITY AUDITED THE PILOT TRAINING COLLEGE IN OCTOBER 2011 AND GAVE THEM A CLEAN BILL OF HEALTH FOR ANOTHER YEAR."

Is this true? (about the sufficient funding)

They're being quite economic with the truth on this one I think. From what I've heard the IAA look to see that any flight organisation (training school, airline etc. etc.) have enough liquidity so as not to hamper a safe operation. This means that if an important instrument became unserviceable for example the airline wouldn't be tempted to fly without it in order to cut corners.

I could be wrong but it is a cursory check where PTC submitted a clearance from the bank or from the accoundant to say all is O.K. The IAA didn't make the judgement as far as I can make out.

It's a very tenuous argument.

FlyingEye

I've been following this thread and the developments at PTC over the last 3 weeks or so with much interest (and latterly, amusement) and felt it is time to add my tuppennyworth!

It is without doubt a sad development in Irish aviation, and hopefully is one that will not tar the reputations of the two remaining Irish commercial training organisations. As many have already iterated, opinions on PTC are many, and whilst I was going to say divided, they do tend to lean more towards the "shower of sh*te" side - a testament to their (ex-) marketing team perhaps! That said, the post-mortems of these type of things usually show that it is management 'meddling' rather than the quality of the product (& staff) that contribute to the downfall.

Together with many of the previous posters, anyone I've spoken to about flying training (and there have been many, both here and in the UK) has always been told to avoid schools that look for full (or substantial) payments upfront or in the early stages of training - for me, this is the first warning sign of potential problems ahead, especially with the figures that are being bandied around by the affected students. Sadly, we see it time and time again - most recently with Cabair's failure. If ever there was a message to prospective student aviators to be financially savvy, THAT was it. Yet, here we are again trying to pick up the pieces - WHEN will people learn from others mistakes??

As for expecting the IAA or the Government to pick up the tab for their mistakes, these guys need to cop on, holds their hands up and accept it as a lesson of life.
BobinKerry hit the nail on the head - why aren't the media, action group etc hunting down Edgeworth to answer some difficult questions (where has all the money gone, for starters? I would have thought that Enterprise Ireland (aka The Government) would want to know the answer to that one)

I think the IAA's part in this is limited at best. When you look at the JAA's requirements for financial evaluation of FTOs (IEM No. 2 to JAR-FCL 1.055 out of that well known book for insomniacs , JAR-FCL), all that is required is a plan of training (no. of students etc, capital expenditure to provide the training etc) plus a financial statement from the FTOs bankers or auditors which certifies that the FTO has, or has recourse to, sufficient financial resources to meet the proposed training plan. Only the IAA will know the content of the statement provided to them, and who it was submitted by, but with the reputation of bankers and financial auditors in this country, is it any wonder that the sums didn't add up?? Either that or the financials changed the day after the plan was submitted to the IAA and nobody was any the wiser! The IAA isn't a financial auditor so quite why anyone thinks the blame lays at their door I don't know!

Anyway, hope the 'protesters' enjoy they day out in town tomorrow at the IAA and Dail. I always say 'If you don't ask, you don't get!' - has always served me well over the years, but a tenner says it will be a fruitless exercise. Perhaps they are better off camping outside the High Court - rumour has it that Edgeworth (or at least his legal people, if he can afford them) are due at the High Court in the very near future!

MF

Su Campu

I think the students and parents should first learn how to write English before speaking of their "3rd Level Education" being stripped from them. It truly is disgraceful to see the poor quality of spelling, grammar and diction in their releases. The only thing worse than this is the actual basis of their argument.

Chancers.

saspeir

Check this out.

Uniforms and all. All bout the image hey. :cool: :rolleyes:

jmayo

Shure if one of them is stuck they might get a uniform off the pilot who flies from home.

Bobinkerry

jmayo wrote: »

Shure if one of them is stuck they might get a uniform off the pilot who flies from home.

Does anyone no if they protesting at both the iaa and government offices tomorrow???

bkehoe

saspeir wrote: »

Check this out.

Uniforms and all. All bout the image hey. :cool: :rolleyes:

"Hopefully the opportunity will arise to meet with Minister Vadakar"

Nice to see the spelling accuracy continues. In the meantime I wonder what Minister Varadkar will think of them outside the Dail?

bombs away

This is a pretty specialized industry these guys and gals are trying to get into, and people tend to know each other. People have long memories.


They should probably consider that before they make idiotic attempts at trying to get the taxpayer to pay for their training :rolleyes:

Su Campu

bkehoe wrote: »

"Hopefully the opportunity will arise to meet with Minister Vadakar"

Nice to see the spelling accuracy continues. In the meantime I wonder what Minister Varadkar will think of them outside the Dail?

Ya know lads, I don't think some of these guys would even get a Level 2 on their English proficiency anyway, never mind ATPLs!

Jocry

Bobinkerry wrote: »

Does anyone no if they protesting at both the iaa and government offices tomorrow???

From what I know they will be outside the IAA building but looking at their Facebook page it appears they're mainly focusing on the Dail

A320

I can imagine with these peoples names in the public domain causing trouble a job anywhere other than Iraqi Airways is unlikely

FlyingEye

A320

Don't be too derogatory towards Iraqi Airways. In the good old days, their pilots were all Oxford trained!! Then again, with Edgeworth trying to push the students in oxfords direction perhaps they'll end up at Iraqi A/w anyway!! Talking of oxford, I wonder what's in it for Edgeworth pushing the newly enrolled students towards what is historically one of the most expensive FTOs around? Just a thought....!

FlyingEye