PILOT TRAINING COLLEGE(PTC) GOING OUT OF BUSINESS

edgeworthless

FlyingEye wrote: »

Hmmm.....anyone starting to smell a rat here or isit just me?

Been doing some digging, and this may be a case of 2+2=5 but here goes!..We know that PTC was in the process of stting up a new school in Cambridge, UK under CAA approval. By all accounts, a few million quid was invested. A few (say 50) €85,000 enrolment fees later......(Students - want to know where your money went???). I gather that the approval application was at a relatively advanced stage (until those meddlers at the IAA got wind of financial problems and suspended their approvals, which no doubt alerted the CAA) and if it had, what would have become of the Waterford operation? A 'regional' multi-IR only specialist??? Enter examinership and talk of 3 'interested' investors and a change of tack for the business to concentrate on multi-IR training!! These investors wouldn't have one eye on whatever was invested in at Cambridge by any chance? Could this have been the plan all along?? Stiff FIT in Florida for $1.2M, go for examinership to getthe bulkt written off and start afresh with a nice shiny new school in Cambridge and a small operation in Waterford for multi-IRs! Of course, it could just be poor management that got them in this mess, but maybe there's more to this than meets the eye!

Flying eye, that is very observant. It has been noted. Lets see if the the UK CAA are as open to cocktails and golf deals as the IAA appear to have been.....

nuggetclv

According to the corkairport.com website, the European College of Aeronautics was established in Cork in Sept 1989, four months after Iona opened a flight school.

I agree with previous posts, they should be seeking Edgeworth!

The students' facebook page has removed that comment about it not being tax payers' fault, and calls the Dáil protest a huge success

bluecode

Interesting comments about possible developments and possible future developments.

An acquaintence of mine who is an outright businessman in aviation first and a pilot second is utterly contemptuous of pilots trying to set up businesses. Another person like that is Michael O'Leary who famously said he had no desire to fly unlike all too many CEOs of airlines.

I think that's what we see here. A pilot trying to run a business. It was always doomed to failure. Only recently I myself saw a potential goldmine shut down because the pilot who ran it hadn't the first clue about marketing or running a business. Pathetic.

That's what we have here. There should be a law against pilots setting up any business. We are useless at running a business.

bluecode

nuggetclv wrote: »

The students' facebook page has removed that comment about it not being tax payers' fault, and calls the Dáil protest a huge success

Saw that, happen to know the guy. He was ex PTC and managed to get an airline job by his own efforts, two airline jobs in fact, no thanks to PTC His reasonable and supportive comments were deleted just like mine. I've no idea if he was called a moron or not. But it wouldn't surprise me.

Seriously I have lost all respect for those people.

flyingcowboys

http://www.ishcc.org/FL/Melbourne/solarsolus-energy-llc

follow the link, look at the company and who is the managing director and then check out the address on google maps and you will see that it is a nice beachfront condo in florida.

jmayo

Delancey wrote: »

There are 2 vital ingredients required for a business to successfully emerge from Examinership - debt write off and fresh investment.
For PTC to survive they will need to screw their creditors and try and get an investor involved .
Relatively few examinerships are succeeding nowadays largely due to the reluctance of investors to get involved , it seems that those with cash are keeping it safe .

Cannot see a long line of investors banging down the doors of PTC.

Investment in aviation at the best of times is hard to get.
A lot of people think of the old saying "how does one make a small fortune in aviation ? Start off with a big one."

The PTC brand is shot and there is no way it can ever be refloated.

private dick wrote: »

...
This thread needs to get back on track and focus on where is the money!!! Has it been invested into real estate? Different companies? What?? Where?? Where is it?

If a student didn't complete a lesson then shouldn't the money still be in the students account? (Not bullied out of them to pay PTC bills!) We should be asking..'why can't the students get their money back'? Why do they have to pay MORE money to another FTO?? WHERE IS THE MONEY?

Is too easy to bash the PTC students for going to the media and a lot of posts have been critical of them. Whether you agree with their course of action is irrevelant in my opinion. Why are we going after these young, ambitious pilots who are just trying to get their money back or training completed?

The reason "we are going after these young, ambitious pilots" is that they expect the Irish taxpayer, of which I am one, to pay for the fact they blew a lot of cash with a private company.
Even worse they often appeared to have been arrogant and dismissive in ignoring valid criticisms and warnings about PTC before they joined and they still appear arrogant with a huge sense of entitlement that the rest of us owe them.
Well tough sh** is my reply.

BTW this does not apply to every PTC student past or present just the ones who are on facebook, on radio, outside Dail, chasing the government/IAA to pay for their decisions.

private dick wrote: »

Why did the question of "where is the money Mr. Edgeworth" die a quick death?

Why aren't the students asking this question rather than asking us the taxpayers ?
In fact I believe the students are the ones that have taken the limelight off of him through their tactics.

private dick wrote: »

A person like captain edgeworth (HAHAHAHA...think i puked a bit in my mouth while I typed this) should not be allowed to conduct aviation business any further. He is a vain and dangerous embarrassment to our industry!

And in my opinion so are the students who are leading the media campaign and blitz to have the taxpayers held responsible for their and mr edgeworth's decisions.

bluecode wrote: »

...
I think that's what we see here. A pilot trying to run a business. It was always doomed to failure. Only recently I myself saw a potential goldmine shut down because the pilot who ran it hadn't the first clue about marketing or running a business. Pathetic.

That's what we have here. There should be a law against pilots setting up any business. We are useless at running a business.

Willie Walsh seems to have done ok.
I know the exception.

Milan Cobian

That's what we have here. There should be a law against pilots setting up any business. We are useless at running a business.

Willie Walsh's done ok. As have legions of other pilots, civil and military who have run everything from airlines to their own business on the side. Still it's easier than doing any actual research to make comments worshipping at the altar of St Michael of Gigginstown :rolleyes:

bluecode

In fact Willie Walsh is a perfect example. He was future management from the day he found himself on the line. The reality was that he was always more manager than pilot. His flying career was relatively short and limited compared to many pilots. He got himself a business degree and never made any secret of his ambitions. in fact he fits the model of businessman turned pilot rather than the other way around.

Sure there are plenty of examples of pilots running successful businesses but when you look at it more deeply, quite often they were always business savvy in the first place.

On the other hand off the top of my head. I can think of a number of businesses set up by pilots which failed largely because while they were good pilots they were poor businessmen. PTC can be added to that list. I know of two small little operations that went down very recently. Both were potential goldmines but they had no idea how to market or fund themselves. Both started with great enthusiasm by pilots.

The reality as typified by O'Leary, it's all about business, first foremost and only. He reserves his enthusiasm for his horses. But even that is run like a business.

joejohn

http://www.floridatoday.com/article/20120719/NEWS01/307190034/Florida-Tech-sues-Irish-flight-school

Florida Tech is accusing Ireland-based Pilot Training College of undertaking a “systematic campaign” to damage the university’s reputation in an effort to save its own.

In a breach of contract and defamation lawsuit filed last week, Florida Tech claims that — after the company breached its contract by failing to pay bills estimated at $1.4 million for flight training and housing — it issued “false and defamatory” statements about the circumstances.
“(PTC) knew their financial crisis would become a major political issue in Ireland,” the lawsuit says.


The company has blamed Florida Tech for not delivering timely or professional training, an assertion that continued this week in Irish court when it claimed flight instructors were inexperienced.
The university has repeatedly denied those allegations.
“We feel that we operated with PTC in good faith, and we provided a high quality training program as evidence by the large number of students continuing with Florida Tech,” spokesman Wes Sumner said.

Kumsheen

joejohn wrote: »

http://www.floridatoday.com/article/20120719/NEWS01/307190034/Florida-Tech-sues-Irish-flight-school

Florida Tech is accusing Ireland-based Pilot Training College of undertaking a “systematic campaign” to damage the university’s reputation in an effort to save its own.

Maybe they will look to claim money from the Irish Taxpayers too.:D

Xpro

This is turning into a joke.
They are really taking the pi$$ at this stage.
I would suggest to all PTC students that your best bet would be to go to Waterford and protest there.
Whoever is advising you to go and protest outside the Goverment buildings and the IAA is very naive and thinking that you will get something back.
I will say again, this is a private matter and it is between you and PTC.
You are ruining your reputation carrying on like an inmature children, and certainly this attitude wont get you a job in an airline. No wonder Mr. O`Leary wont take any irish onboard because of a few individuals that carry on like you do.

joejohn

Xpro wrote: »

This is turning into a joke.
They are really taking the pi$$ at this stage.
I would suggest to all PTC students that your best bet would be to go Waterford and protest there.
Whoever is advising you to go and protest outside the Goverment buildings and IAA is very naive thinking that you will get something back.
I will say again, this is a private matter and it is between you and PTC.
You are ruining your reputation carrying on like an inmature children, and certainly this attitude wont get you a job in an airline. No wonder Mr. O`Leary wont take any irish onboard because of a few individuals that carry on like you do.

Worth noting that this is a small minority, the majority of former PTC students are either currently sourcing if not attending new training providers staying focused on what they want to achieve, or trying to reorganise finances to see if it is viable to continue training elsewhere.

Milan Cobian

Sure there are plenty of examples of pilots running successful businesses but when you look at it more deeply, quite often they were always business savvy in the first place.

Absolutely. My point is that being a pilot and business savvy is not mutually exclusive. There are plenty of people in any walk of life who are not business savvy, and that includes the business world. Regrettably the worlds banks were largely run by those with no business savvy.
Some pilots have no place in business, nor do some doctors, architects, lawyers, developers, stock brokers, managers etc etc. Whereas many do.
I know several pilots with successful businesses. Are they good businessmen? Yes. Were Sean Fitzpatrick or Ken Lay good businessmen? It turned out they weren't.
Sweeping statements are nonsense.

bluecode

Milan Cobian wrote: »

Sweeping statements are nonsense.

You're picking me up because I made a sweeping statement? Well this is the internet, sweeping statements are not exactly unknown.

I take your point but you do know what I mean and in PTCs case this is a good example of someone's enthusiasm outweighing his business sense.

saspeir

One interesting thing I picked up on in the news of the examinership yesterday was that of a lost contract with Aer Lingus. What's that about? PTC must haved tendered for the training of the cadets? Was there ever a chance PTC could have gotten that?

Irish Independent wrote:

Other factors which led to the financial difficulties included loss of key customers, including a major contract from Aer Lingus, he said. The company incurred significant operating losses and it has total liablities now stand at just over €9.7m.

bkehoe

I was never aware of them having a contract with Aer Lingus. The wording of that article implies that they were actually were doing business with them and lost it rather than tendering for anything. Loss of a tender would be quite common in business and hardly worthy of a mention in this situation.

Anyone know what contract they had with EI or is it BS?

Kunny

bkehoe wrote: »

I was never aware of them having a contract with Aer Lingus. The wording of that article implies that they were actually were doing business with them and lost it rather than tendering for anything. Loss of a tender would be quite common in business and hardly worthy of a mention in this situation.

Anyone know what contract they had with EI or is it BS?

Aer Lingus had originally planned after the original tender process to split the current cadets with half going to FTE and the other half going to PTC. It was quite late in the finalisation process for reasons I am not going to go into here Aer Lingus decided not to go to PTC and decided to send all to FTE, so there is truth in this on this occasion. If you note I had mentioned the possibility of more than one Fto in a post in the Aer Lingus thread at the time.

edgeworthless

Kunny wrote: »

bkehoe wrote: »

I was never aware of them having a contract with Aer Lingus. The wording of that article implies that they were actually were doing business with them and lost it rather than tendering for anything. Loss of a tender would be quite common in business and hardly worthy of a mention in this situation.

Anyone know what contract they had with EI or is it BS?

Aer Lingus had originally planned after the original tender process to split the current cadets with half going to FTE and the other half going to PTC. It was quite late in the finalisation process for reasons I am not going to go into here Aer Lingus decided not to go to PTC and decided to send all to FTE, so there is truth in this on this occasion. If you note I had mentioned the possibility of more than one Fto in a post in the Aer Lingus thread at the time.

Let's make this clear! PTC never had a contract with Aer Lingus. mike edgeworth and his global sales training manageress ha ha, told FIT they had a deal to bring 20 Aer Lingus students a month. I thought Aer Lingus was only going to train 20 students for the year! They used this lie to sell to students at the seminar saying they could get them jobs. They probably used the same lie to get investors and extend their line of credit.
They also tried it with Ryanair but got seriously slapped down by them.
The point is the money is missing.
I hear the parents of some of the students are planning a trip to waterford, feel free to contact me for a map to the Edgeworth farm.

McNulty737

Protesting outside the dail and in the media in their little ptc uniforms and stripes....ouch, thats embarassing....if any of them ever do make it as pilots they'll look back on that and cringe.

CatFromHue

McNulty737 wrote: »

Protesting outside the dail and in the media in their little ptc uniforms and stripes....ouch, thats embarassing....if any of them ever do make it as pilots they'll look back on that and cringe.

No they won't!

They got screwed for 80K and they're doing their best to bring attention to it. They be slightly misguided in their approach but I can't be fault one but for effort.

Fair play I say.

Delancey

CatFromHue wrote: »

No they won't!

They got screwed for 80K and they're doing their best to bring attention to it. They be slightly misguided in their approach but I can't be fault one but for effort.

Fair play I say.

If one were to apply that logic to its conclusion then every unsecured creditor that ever got stiffed when a businness went tits up should be picketing the Dail and looking for a Government bail out.
These students seem to think their case is morally superior to others who have lost money - it isn't.

They probably spend all day in their uniforms admiring themselves in the mirror.

saspeir

ONE of those evacuated from Priory Hall told yesterday of their growing anger and disappointment at being left "in limbo".
Fiona Kurt (35) used money inherited from her parents and all her savings to purchase a two-bedroom apartment on the ground floor of the development in 2007.

hhhhmmmm... and these people have met with the Taoiseach and all. I'd say it'll cost PTC students to be chasing the government if anything. All that fuel and time to meet with people that will not give them a cent. Sorry to break it to you lads but you haven't a hope. Leo will sit you down for half an hour, nod and smile and then he'll fook off for his fancy dinner and forget yas.

Kunny

edgeworthless wrote: »

Kunny wrote: »

bkehoe wrote: »

I was never aware of them having a contract with Aer Lingus. The wording of that article implies that they were actually were doing business with them and lost it rather than tendering for anything. Loss of a tender would be quite common in business and hardly worthy of a mention in this situation.

Anyone know what contract they had with EI or is it BS?

Aer Lingus had originally planned after the original tender process to split the current cadets with half going to FTE and the other half going to PTC. It was quite late in the finalisation process for reasons I am not going to go into here Aer Lingus decided not to go to PTC and decided to send all to FTE, so there is truth in this on this occasion. If you note I had mentioned the possibility of more than one Fto in a post in the Aer Lingus thread at the time.

Let's make this clear! PTC never had a contract with Aer Lingus. mike edgeworth and his global sales training manageress ha ha, told FIT they had a deal to bring 20 Aer Lingus students a month. I thought Aer Lingus was only going to train 20 students for the year! They used this lie to sell to students at the seminar saying they could get them jobs. They probably used the same lie to get investors and extend their line of credit.
They also tried it with Ryanair but got seriously slapped down by them.
The point is the money is missing.
I hear the parents of some of the students are planning a trip to waterford, feel free to contact me for a map to the Edgeworth farm.

Again just to be clear I am not an advocate of PTC but the question was asked about a link to Aer Lingus, which did go towards the final stages of contact negotiation. Now of course Aer Lingus didn't finalise the contact otherwise half the students would be in PTC. As for what PTC told FIT or Rynair I have no idea. Also to note my information is coming from the Aer Lingus side not the PTC side and Aer Lingus was very close to doing business with PTC.

CatFromHue

Delancey wrote: »

If one were to apply that logic to its conclusion then every unsecured creditor that ever got stiffed when a businness went tits up should be picketing the Dail and looking for a Government bail out.
These students seem to think their case is morally superior to others who have lost money - it isn't.

They probably spend all day in their uniforms admiring themselves in the mirror.

The bitterness and begrudging in this thread is amazing! It appears from some posts (not all now) that you'd think the students were the one stiffed people for 80K.

As I said I think their approach is misguided but I can't fault them for effort. By staging a protest outside the Dail they'll bring more attention to their problem than by doing it outside PTC. Is the PTC facility even occupied at the moment? I don't know. At this point they need as much attention as possible, they can't let it disappear out of the media spotlight.

They appear to be blaming the IAA incorrectly and the IAA should release a statement highlighting why this is.

I certainly don't want the govt to reimburse them which would be madness but if this brings a better regulation of pilot training it can only be good. From reading some of the posts here it appears that this isn't the first pilot training centre to go bust but hopefully it will be the last.

Delancey

CatFromHue wrote: »

From reading some of the posts here it appears that this isn't the first pilot training centre to go bust but hopefully it will be the last.

Alas a forlorn hope - flying schools go tits up with monotonous regularity , sadly this will not be the last time........

Guramoogah

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0720/trainee-pilots.html

14:08, Friday, 20 July 2012

Transport Minister Varadkar tells trainee pilots that neither the Government nor the Irish Aviation Authority will be compensating trainee pilots.

Trainee pilots lost money when the company providing their training ran into financial difficulties.

Minister Leo Varadkar said that neither the Government nor the IAA are liable.

Dr Varadkar said that he has huge sympathy for the trainees and would continue to engage with them.

In a statement from the Department of Transport, it said that the IAA is organising one-on-one meetings with the students and will be advising them on their career options.

It continued that it would engage with the examiner appointed to Pilot Training College Waterford to find out what happened to the fees handed over by the trainees.

The Government has already agreed to cover the cost of the trainee pilots returning to Ireland, including those who have not yet returned.

roundymac

Varadker told them today that the Gov and the IAA will not cover their fees to finish their course. He said that there were not liable for the failure of PTC.

vicwatson

Varadker told them today that the Gov and the IAA will not cover their fees to finish their course. He said that there were not liable for the failure of PTC.

Yet.....

The Government has already agreed to cover the cost of the trainee pilots returning to Ireland, including those who have not yet returned.

Kumsheen

Well hopefully the media will now focus on PTC and expose where the students money actually went to.

Crey86

Vicwatson. I suspect that's more a repatriation of stranded citizens than anything to do with the flying school closing.