PILOT TRAINING COLLEGE(PTC) GOING OUT OF BUSINESS

Delancey

Jumboman wrote: »

I think this is the interview your referring to.

http://www.tv3.ie/videos.php?video=29834&locID=1.65.74&page=1[/QUOTE]

Pure unadulterated shyte , typical of TV3.

Have to say the so-called Employment Counsellor was the biggest dickhead by far with his talk of '' half a million pilots will be needed '' .

As for the Pilot Skills Assessment so essential to gaining entry to PTC has anyone heard of a candidate who could afford the 80 Grand and was refused entry because he/she failed this important test ??

Jumboman

Delancey wrote: »

As for the Pilot Skills Assessment so essential to gaining entry to PTC has anyone heard of a candidate who could afford the 80 Grand and was refused entry because he/she failed this important test ??

The guy in the video said their was 100% pass rate they must even pass people who are colour blind

flynnlives

im sure Martin Cullen can answer why this company got tax payers money!

Sure he is only down the road in florida enjoying his tax payer funded pension

maybe the stranded pilots could shack up with Cullen in his gaff till they sort it all out!!
here is his gaff

saspeir

Talking of Cullens, I see on RTé's 6 o'clock news Evan Cullen of IALPA, no less, is calling for the government to place these students with the remaining Irish colleges to complete their training at the cost of the government.

I mean let's get real! If that happens is the State going to pay all contractors that got screwed over by developers that went bust?

Just dole out the cotton wool there Evan...

coylemj

RTE News website, updated at 18:41 today....

The Pilot Training College whose Irish students have been left without flight training in the US has apologised over the distress caused

In a statement, the Pilot Training College insists that its US training partner, the Florida Institute of Technology is to blame for the problems

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0706/enterprise-irelands-investment-in-pilot-centre.html

jmayo

This is the problem with modern day Ireland and the precedent was set when someone suggested that Eircom shareholders, who never should have bought the marketing speil then held on to long and didn't see the writing on the wall, should have been reimbursed for their losses.
Then it was taximen.
Then we had actual bailouts for bankers and developers only to be followed with calls for anyone in negative equity or mortgage trouble to be bailed out.

Nobody is respeonsible for anything anymore and if a group are vocal enough and publicised enough some politicans or connected types starting come out of the woodwork championing them and their demands to be recompensed for their losses.

Someone should tell Evan to get his IALPA mates to cough up.

Does anyone in this fooking country understand that the taxpayers are not an infinite source of money. :mad::mad:
Especially seen as some celebrites that shout their mouth off don't even bother paying any.
BTW that was not aimed at Evan but some pinko politican.

BTW how come we have yet another RTE news item on this.
Who will be dragged in tomorrow to comment on it ?
I can't wait for Michael O'Leary to be asked to comment. :rolleyes:

Cactus466

100% agree with the above post.

My two cents here also, what so special about these guys as opposed to anyone else who has been "burned" by a school that has closed.

Meaning if any regular modular student doing a cpl/ir etc had lost his/her money with a school because it was closed, you and me both know we would be told "tough s***"

Taxpayer to fund this crap? You must be joking!!!

You played the game, knew the risk (some under a rock didn't) and now you have been burned.

golfalphazulu

Are there any sponsored/cadet types caught out by this, if so are they being treated differently by PTC, just curious. Also interesting thread on pprune from a couple of years back, google the ceo,s name followed by pprune, something similar happened , outfit called PFT, look him up on linkedin .

I dont know how to do the link thing sorry

A320

Whats this about ?
http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0120/ptc-business.html

More bull**** from 'The Captain'

Delancey

I know some folks dislike Leo Varadker ( well he is a politician after all ) but at least he has firmly ruled out any form of Government ' bail out ' for the affected students.
Evan Cullen would be better advised sorting out the colossal pension fund losses incurred by buying EI shares to thwart O'Learys first bid.

Carvair

bluecode wrote: »

I don't really blame Mr Edgeworth, the truth is that pilots are crap businessmen. The best flying schools are run by business men first, pilots second.

PTC was always a triumph of marketing over reality. This moment was inevitable. The tragedy is that there are too many dreamers in this business.

Oh, I see ... now its ALL the fault of the guys in Florida

cavanman112

I hate to say I told you so, and I do honestly feel sorry for the parents of the students but seriously, all concerned parties entered into a legally binding business agreement, one party has defaulted and left the other in the lurch, this is happens thousands of times each year, its called business, so how in the name god does Evan Cullen think that the governement should pony up and pay for the completion of the lads atpl ?

I lost a fortune on Anglo which i was going to use on my flight training.........Evan....help.......please...nah, didnt think so, just sound bites !!!

LeftBase

If the govt pay out money to complete the training for these guys they set a legal precedent which means that they will have to help out any trainee pilot in strife and many people who were burned in the past could sue.

In short it would be a legal minefield and we'd be back to the IMF for another bailout by the time it was over.

Flybe's involvement with PTC has made them somewhat of a joke but I'd imagine Gulf Air are most likely cringing into their pillows now....I'd be surprised if their head pilot has the strength to overcome the mortification and show his face in public for a while....

winglets73

Firstly I have read boards a long time but never felt the urge to post until now.

As a past student of PTC (6 years ago) and currently working in the airline business, 'Leftbase' your attitude is absolutely disgusting. Possibly you are regretting it now...I hope. You talked in a few posts how no PTC students are getting jobs...well I have it as FACT that they are getting jobs (and have gotten). Just as much as any flight school in Ireland. Numerous Irish airlines have taken on PTC students over the past few years. By NO means am I giving credit to PTC for that. The credit goes to the students, as PTC give absolutely no help to students when job hunting. They are useless when it comes to employment. Yes I would agree PTC have a bad rep with airlines but from my experience airlines still interview the student and judge the candiate on themselves rather than a schools rep.

Before I get shot at I was in PTC years ago before it was 'integrated' and we did a pay as you go method of payment - modular. There is absolutely no way I would pay that much money up front. Even back then it was an absolute disgrace of a school. The school itself with regards to flight training was great, admin and the owner was the big problem. When I went to PTC it was on par with the cost of every other school in Ireland as a modular fast track course. Leftbase you talk about ptc students all having silver spoons... everyone that I trained with paid for it themselves. Either by saving the money before starting or having a bank loan. There is no way to know that all the current students have had 'mammy & daddy' pay for there courses, and even if they had what business is it of any of us.

I feel very sorry for the students and staff in all the PTC owned training centres. Yes it is the students fault but as someone said hindsight is a great thing. I have warned many people and changed there mind on ptc in the past - I can only say I am sorry for those that didn't listen. I never say 'I told u so'. Karma. These things comes around. So...why gloat about it.
So two ptc students gave you hassle at a flyer show? How about growing up and taking it on the chin? I have often, in the past, had the same attitude from Oxford students. Doesn't bother me one bit. You get that in all walks of life...even in airline jobs. I don't throw a tantrum over it.

I completely agree with you that there was enough information out there to know about PTC's rep. But you have to remember you don't know everyones situation - In particular I know one person that knew PTC's rep but still went there as he's wife was sick and he needed to live at home. So did everything in Waterford. This was years ago so not effected by this situation. My point is...you don't know everyones circumstance so you can't judge.

With regards to the current situation, I absolutely agree that they should be credited what they have done e.g if they have an FAA PPL they should be allowed to keep it. On the other hand I don't think they should get special circumstances and allowed discounted training or training allowances that other students in other schools would not get. You can't make them a special case. It's unfortunate to happen to them, but this has happened before to other Irish students and nothing was done. e.g Cabair etc.

I think IALPA's point about schools having to have bonds is excellent and should be something that is looked into. At the moment the other schools in Ireland, NFC/Atlantic etc...have they bonds? What happens to the current students there if they go bust? They may not have thousands on account but they have to keep there account in credit so would have some money paid in.

Another point what will happen to Mike Edgeworth? I hope to god he is arrested and held accountable. Some seriously shaddy dealings and smells of a pyramid scheme.

PTC blaming FIT is laughable. Talk about trying to share the blame. PTC should of paid there bills end of. If they had of the students would receive training. This is not the first time PTC refused to pay bills to there American schools and planes were grounded then too. Perhaps they should of concentrated on building small to start rather than jumping head first. I wonder shall they have a judge and prize at the Rose of Tralee this year!

A good thing that will come from this is hopefully the Dept. of Transport and the IAA will look at flight schools and training in greater detail now.

saspeir

I can't see the government giving anything to PTC students. These students, as sad as it is, lost money for careers, not their homes. They'll recover from it although for some may take some time. Hopefully the banks will be lenient.

But, and it's a big but, take Priory Hall as an example. Families with young children evicted from their homes and still have to pay mortgages on homes that can never be lived in again. Homes that were signed off by the local authority to say they were to spec. If I were a Minister my priority would be those families, not the students.

LeftBase

winglets73 wrote: »

.
As a past student of PTC (6 years ago) and currently working in the airline business, 'Leftbase' your attitude is absolutely disgusting. Possibly you are regretting it now...I hope. You talked in a few posts how no PTC students are getting jobs...well I have it as FACT that they are getting jobs (and have gotten). Just as much as any flight school in Ireland. Numerous Irish airlines have taken on PTC students over the past few years. By NO means am I giving credit to PTC for that. The credit goes to the students, as PTC give absolutely no help to students when job hunting. They are useless when it comes to employment. Yes I would agree PTC have a bad rep with airlines but from my experience airlines still interview the student and judge the candiate on themselves rather than a schools rep.

I regret nothing and wont do so no matter how many people look to wade in with emotive sympathy etc. I admitted some things were a little heavy in their delivery but none the less I stand by the points I have made.

Given the % numbers PTC churn out very few PTC students actually achieve jobs off their own bat. Many of them get vacant jobs at Flybe due to the mentored scheme Flybe run at PTC. Flybe are saving an awful lot of money out of this deal and so it is in everyone's interest down there for PTC students to be Flybe FOs. The numbers PTC quote in their employment stats INCLUDE the mentored students and so if there is a group of 20 and 10 are Flybe "cadets" then a 50% strike rate is boasted. However these guys have been given a guarantee of a job as long as they train to a standard. I don't think I ever said that absolutely nobody there gets a job, of course a few pick up jobs but the fact is many of them actually come out lacking the knowledge and skills to pass interview regardless of the school's rep and this is much lamented among training captains etc and has been seen posted here a few times.
The PTC you trained in is a very different PTC of the **** factory it was when it went bust.

Like I have said before. There is no point wading in attacking me because people view this as a human interest story. Other posters have agreed that any trainee pilot who has had dealings with PTC students find that experience makes any real heart felt sympathy very hard. If my FTO was gone under they'd be laughing it up out there and using it as propaganda to rub in faces at the next FLYER expo....I don't think you'll see other FTOs do that this year.

LeftBase

Sorry to second post but there was more issues from winglet's post I forgot to reply to

Leftbase you talk about ptc students all having silver spoons...

Do i?

So two ptc students gave you hassle at a flyer show? How about growing up and taking it on the chin? I have often, in the past, had the same attitude from Oxford students. Doesn't bother me one bit. You get that in all walks of life...even in airline jobs. I don't throw a tantrum over it.

More than 2 students more than once..more than the flyer exhibition and some of the abuse I got was from admin staff and instructors when I asked questions they didnt like in front of the "sheeple" who were lapping up a nice helping of bull**** at the open day. To be honest I cannot post the true and full nature of my bad experiance with PTC as it would be legally dogey...but my bad experience and witnessing of verbal abuse goes right to the top!

winglets73

Well all I can say is that's your opinion and you are entitled to it. Although it is a very negative attitude and all I can say is best of luck with that in the airlines.

I'm sure the next few weeks will tell the outcome for the students and staff.

LeftBase

winglets73 wrote: »

Well all I can say is that's your opinion and you are entitled to it. Although it is a very negative attitude and all I can say is best of luck with that in the airlines.

Why do people always pull out the "oh the airlines wont like that" card. All I am doing is stating the reality of PTCs situation. I'm sure airlines what their pilots aware of the conditions on their route and if you can advise other pilots of that then all the better. PTC went bust and people lost 80k each....thats fairly negative...not much I can do to make it sound any better. They are(were) a very negative company for any trainee to be involved with and the experience for most as you yourself admitted was negative. There will always be success through bloody mindedness of some people...that that success should not be allowed to mask the majority failure of the school.

These students launced full on into a thunderstorm when every country had a convective sigmet out on it....that is not going to gain any one of them any luck in an airline!

winglets73

LeftBase wrote: »

Why do people always pull out the "oh the airlines wont like that" card. !

It's not a card Leftbase it's fact. Airlines look for pilots with good CRM, positive outlook and team players as well as other qualities. Do you honestly think some of the things you have said strike you as a 'team player' to your fellow pilots? Attack the school I understand completely, they are disgraceful. But that's your future colleagues, and you shouldn't be gloating in there misfortune no matter how deserved you think it is.

Now back to the topic at hand...opinions are like arses...we all have them.

LeftBase

winglets73 wrote: »

It's not a card Leftbase it's fact. Airlines look for pilots with good CRM, positive outlook and team players as well as other qualities. Do you honestly think some of the things you have said strike you as a 'team player' to your fellow pilots? Attack the school I understand completely, they are disgraceful. But that's your future colleagues.

So if in 10 year's time FO/Captain Leftbase see's his Captain/FO(a former PTC student) making a very silly mistake he should not point it out? Or the training department notice that this guy is doing something very wrong? Keeping to this scenario both myself and training would be told to **** off and that we know nothing and that their PTC instructor said this and that. And that is no overstatement..some of what they say is actually quite similar to that.

I can be a team player and get on with people fine...but I would never sit by and let such a blatant error go un-mentioned. PTC is largely at fault for all this BUT the students must shoulder some blame too! I have been taught that once you take your 1st hour of your PPL you must foster the attitude of a professional pilot if that is your goal. Everything you do must be treated as if it is a commercial operation and by doing so you build good habits. Almost the 1st thing a pilot does is check the weather...they are the conditions for the course he intends to fly that day! By not doing any research or asking around these students failed to carry out such a responsibility and ended up in the **** with no way out much the same way many VMC into IMC accidents have taken place. Any VFR pilot killed in IMC is mourned as any loss is, however people have to be able to point out that he made a serious error so that this is accepted and others can be educated in the future.

Just because somebody has something really bad happen to them doesn't excuse them from being wrong....and it doesn't mean their error should not be pointed out!

winglets73

LeftBase wrote: »

So if in 10 year's time FO/Captain Leftbase see's his Captain/FO(a former PTC student) making a very silly mistake he should not point it out? Or the training department notice that this guy is doing something very wrong? Keeping to this scenario both myself and training would be told to **** off and that we know nothing and that their PTC instructor said this and that. And that is no overstatement..some of what they say is actually quite similar to that.

I can be a team player and get on with people fine...but I would never sit by and let such a blatant error go un-mentioned. PTC is largely at fault for all this BUT the students must shoulder some blame too! I have been taught that once you take your 1st hour of your PPL you must foster the attitude of a professional pilot if that is your goal. Everything you do must be treated as if it is a commercial operation and by doing so you build good habits. Almost the 1st thing a pilot does is check the weather...they are the conditions for the course he intends to fly that day! By not doing any research or asking around these students failed to carry out such a responsibility and ended up in the **** with no way out much the same way many VMC into IMC accidents have taken place. Any VFR pilot killed in IMC is mourned as any loss is, however people have to be able to point out that he made a serious error so that this is accepted and others can be educated in the future.

Just because somebody has something really bad happen to them doesn't excuse them from being wrong....and it doesn't mean their error should not be pointed out!

Ok firstly talk about taking something out of context!

Of course you should point out a mistake if it will cause danger or harm to your aircraft or crew. When you start flying for an airline you will learn some key words - team player, diplomacy, good leader.
There is a way to speak to someone and a way not to. A good leader brings out the best in his/her crew - even in a bad situation. You don't bring someone down. You want to encourage and help them learn. We ALL make mistakes be it in life or flying. The pilot that thinks they never make a mistake is a dangerous one.

I think these students in questions will learn from there mistake, it is a hard one to bear. They don't need someone in the corner "pointing out the error"...it's pretty obvious...they are short 80k.

You said "you must foster the attitude of a professional pilot if that is your goal"... well your attitude is completely unprofessional and if you were in my flight deck giving me that attitude I'd offload you. I am not trying to be mean, you are still training and to be honest experience is key. Over the coming years you will learn loads. It's not just about flying the aircraft, theres much more there. You need to be a manager as well, know how to manage people and bring out there best. Not put them down.

Anyway I think we should let this topic lie as I said before and stop boring people and get back to the topic at hand.

saspeir

Just because somebody has something really bad happen to them doesn't excuse them from being wrong....and it doesn't mean their error should not be pointed out!

Very true. Totally agree. Now consider the manner in which somebody points out an error made by somebody:

1) "John, very good approach overall. Nice flare and I liked your use of into wind aileron on the roll-out. One thing I would say is don't use the sideslip all the way to the runway. Make sure to be speed stabilised at least by 200ft..."

2) "John, that way f*cking dangerous what you did there. I'm reporting you. I warned you about caution in the approach to land. Wait here's Jim, let's tell him and the crew room what a muppet you are. I knew you and your type the very day you joined. People like you are always arrogant little *hits..."

I'm with Winglets. I hope I never have to fly with you. You strike me as vindictive in the extreme! Not good when you're on the line for hours with somebody...

Su Campu

Again well said Leftbase, I really feel sorry for the students' predicament but as you and others have repeatedly pointed out - NOBODY forks out 85 grand without first checking things out thoroughly. I don't care what their situation is, sick wife or otherwise, nothing can prevent basic economical wisdom still prevailing and doing full research. If their situation is so bad that they can't do that then they shouldn't be put in charge of flying a plane solo.

So yes, we all sympathise with their predicament, but enough of this personal abuse when someone points out the hard truth.

Cessna_Pilot

Leftbase I hope we get to fly together one day, from either seat

LeftBase

winglets73 wrote: »

Ok firstly talk about taking something out of context!

Of course you should point out a mistake if it will cause danger or harm to your aircraft or crew. When you start flying for an airline you will learn some key words - team player, diplomacy, good leader.
There is a way to speak to someone and a way not to. A good leader brings out the best in his/her crew - even in a bad situation. You don't bring someone down. You want to encourage and help them learn. We ALL make mistakes be it in life or flying. The pilot that thinks they never make a mistake is a dangerous one.

I think these students in questions will learn from there mistake, it is a hard one to bear. They don't need someone in the corner "pointing out the error"...it's pretty obvious...they are short 80k.

You said "you must foster the attitude of a professional pilot if that is your goal"... well your attitude is completely unprofessional and if you were in my flight deck giving me that attitude I'd offload you. I am not trying to be mean, you are still training and to be honest experience is key. Over the coming years you will learn loads. It's not just about flying the aircraft, theres much more there. You need to be a manager as well, know how to manage people and bring out there best. Not put them down.

Anyway I think we should let this topic lie as I said before and stop boring people and get back to the topic at hand.

To be honest I'm not trying to start a heated argument with you, I'm just outlining my point of view. If your FO sat next to you and had not read the Met or briefed the departure/route/approach I'd imagine you'd have some choice words. This is somewhat similar in my mind and it appears the minds of others to what these students did.
We are on a message board and so are free to speak our minds. One thing I do posses is the ability to shut up and not say what I think when it isn't totally necessary to say it (ie: "I think we're in a spin Captain!") to preserve unity etc and that is something a lot of people exercise on everyday life, and believe me given some of the places I've worked/worked for(in part to fund flying)....we'll say I've perfected it.

I'll be away for a few days and I'm sure(or hope) this thread will be dead when I get back so I'll end my contribution by saying that PTC as a company are a disgrace to Irish aviation...however the students must bear some of the blame no matter how small, not for the collapse but for exposing themselves to such well know con-men. My comment over the past few days have been at times motivated by my own personal experience of PTC and it's students and that has lead to my comments being perhaps more barbed than they needed to be. This is a terrible personal story for all the families involved...but as I said earlier as bad as it may sound this like many air disasters before it could have been prevented if the proper precautions were taken both by the students and the regulators. It is a combination of structural failure and pilot error leading to catastrophic hull loss for all involved!

That's all I'll say here until there is further significant developments.

LeftBase

Very true. Totally agree. Now consider the manner in which somebody points out an error made by somebody:

1) "John, very good approach overall. Nice flare and I liked your use of into wind aileron on the roll-out. One thing I would say is don't use the sideslip all the way to the runway. Make sure to be speed stabilised at least by 200ft..."

2) "John, that way f*cking dangerous what you did there. I'm reporting you. I warned you about caution in the approach to land. Wait here's Jim, let's tell him and the crew room what a muppet you are. I knew you and your type the very day you joined. People like you are always arrogant little *hits..."

I'm with Winglets. I hope I never have to fly with you. You strike me as vindictive in the extreme! Not good when you're on the line for hours with somebody...

Ok I know I said I was done but I will make an exception for character assassinations.

I have at no point called any of the students names etc bar the ones who abused me and not when they did it. So you can drop that now.

I'm sure when they are loading 200 bodybags into vans they will all remember how nice you were to John......
This isn't just a "mind your speed" type error...it's a serious blatant staring you in the face "entering a spin at 200ft on approach type error". I'm not so sure you would be so clam and kind then.

I hope I don't fly with you either because you draw wild conclusions about people and things based on weak, self compiled evidence and then base final conclusions on it. You'd try and tell me the 737's ASI says 100kts because the auto-pilot has a vindictive personality..:rolleyes:

winglets73

And moving on...

saspeir

LeftBase wrote: »

Ok I know I said I was done but I will make an exception for character assassinations.

I have at no point called any of the students names etc bar the ones who abused me and not when they did it. So you can drop that now.

I'm sure when they are loading 200 bodybags into vans they will all remember how nice you were to John......
This isn't just a "mind your speed" type error...it's a serious blatant staring you in the face "entering a spin at 200ft on approach type error". I'm not so sure you would be so clam and kind then.

I hope I don't fly with you either because you draw wild conclusions about people and things based on weak, self compiled evidence and then base final conclusions on it. You'd try and tell me the 737's ASI says 100kts because the auto-pilot has a vindictive personality..:rolleyes:

You failed to get the quote in there Lefty!

Best of luck to you. All I'm saying is there's no need for the salt rub on the wound. Leave it to the Chief Pilot to decide on the punishment for the 200ft spin. You just keep the calm head on the line and get on with the job... If you want to make those comparisons...

Like Winglets has said, you don't know what info. those students made their decisions on. I have already said I'd like to see more info. on WIT's involvement with PTC and who gave permission for logos and other such to be used in marketing by PTC...

LeftBase

Apologies to Winglets I quoted him when I was meant to quote saspeir