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PILOT TRAINING COLLEGE(PTC) GOING OUT OF BUSINESS
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So Where did all the money go? Whats to stop someone like Edgeworth collecting millions in fees for integrated courses and lodging it in an offshore bank account? He then claims bankruptcy and leaves the country to retire abroad with his fortune. I'm not saying this is what happened but will anyone ever find out what happened?0
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I am currently in the middle of modular flight training, I work my ass off day in, day out to get a decent wage, I save most of my wages for flight lessons and when all my friends go out on the p*ss (which a 23 year old lad should be doing)...I stay in! I'm not complaining, its my choice at the end of the day, and hopefully, one day i will be rewarded for these sacrifices! BUT, As much as i feel for the guys and girls who are affected by this mess, i would be absolutely fuming if they get the rest of their training funded by the government or IAA. It would be a big kick in the teeth to modular students who are waiting for their wages to come in every week before going flying.
If these students had done some proper research on PTC, im sure they would have avoided them like the plague! I could be wrong, but it screams to me that the people who went to PTC dont really have a huge interest in aviation, they just thought being a pilot is a cool job with a cool uniform, and when mammy and daddy said they could do it, they picked the first school that came up in google.
As for IALPA requesting Aer Lingus' help, this is pure disgraceful! Im guessing they mean giving some of these students a position in the next cadet scheme! I hope Aer Lingus dont crack under pressure! Because if they were given a place on the cadet scheme it means that because of their naiveness and lack of research into a flight school that they would be become some of the luckiest wannabee pilots in the world.0 -
Dog eat dog is just the way of life. What gets to me is that these students are getting treatment I and others wouldn't get if similar happened us elsewhere. They were clearly reckless in their judgement and should they get any more than flights(which I think is generous enough) I will be shocked.IngazZagni wrote: »I'm quite surprised at the attitudes of many members of this forum. But this industry has high supply and low demand at the moment and that breeds a dog eat dog enviornment. So in that sense it's not really surprising when you think about it. That also means opinions are in plentiful supply.The cost of flights to and from the States was included in the amount paid to PTC. It stated that in the contract as well.
Surely, the students would have had contingency money for flights in case of the unexpected(family sickness, school going bust etc. etc.). If it is true, which I doubt it is, that they couldn't pay for flights home it shows again their reckless judgement in choosing PTC and going to the States.
Who was this accredited by? Who gave the lectures? What was the exact arrangement with WIT?PTC have been running a course in WIT. A BA in something like Aviation Science,I can't remember the actual course name but it does exist.. Or did.
You'll find that you have misquoted. The I.A.A. is a commercial semi-state that does not receive State funding. Therefore, any money out of the I.A.A.'s kitty is money out of our kitty. The reason it is not State funded is because of the few thousand Ryanair guys paying for licences, the affluent aircraft leasing industry here and ATC fees for fly overs. That does not excuse it from bailing out the unfortunate few. Everybody should be treated the same.The IAA is a commercial organisation, they do not receive state funding so you as a taxpayer will contribute nothing. However those of us that pay fees to the IAA will be paying for this. I don't know what to think really. I'm a bit indifferent to it really.
I just can't see how they could give preference to these students. It has to be against recruitment rules (advertising, due process, etc. etc.). I hope all they meant was possibly flights home from Orlando? It's a joke if they do.happy_head wrote:As for IALPA requesting Aer Lingus' help, this is pure disgraceful! Im guessing they mean giving some of these students a position in the next cadet scheme!0 -
http://www.derryjournal.com/news/local/nightmare-in-florida-grounded-flight-student-set-to-lose-86-000-1-4039378
This self appointed spokesman can be checked out on FB...
If only he put the same effort into his research I'm sure the guy would be a lot better off...Conor Deeny(Facebook) wrote:After a long 2 weeks its time for me to pack up and leave Florida all I can say is thank you to the many many ladies and gentlemen that helped me in drawing a lot of attention to this messy issue ! Without your help and preservation of my crazy moods I would not have been able to do it and together we have given a successful "one voice" and we will put up the fight ! I will be at home from Thursday onwards and i will resume to monitor and react to the forever changing situation, Press Wise I will keep in contact with the senior team both here and in Ireland and we will work on something ! Keep strong and we will win ....... trust me
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Couple of things need to be said.
Firstly @Leftbase. You met some twats. There are twats everywhere, get over it. Not everyone in PTC had this attitude you were unlucky. You would have gotten worse attitude from Oxford students.
Ptc's training was grand. It was not as good as it's marketing team but it wasn't below standard. But the company as a whole was rotten. The training I've seen in other places was the same standard. As for people going to interviews and not being ready. That's your own fault for not studying.
If these guys are hoping that the government will bail them out what are they going to do when the airline they are in goes bust. I've only flown with a few guys who have never been in a bankrupt airline. Deal with it, you signed a contract, you knew what you were getting into. I have more sympathy for the guys who are 25+ and have worked a bit.
I'm not a supporter of PTC. I'm glad they're gone and I do have sympathy for the people involved but don't go crying to the government like the people in negative equity.0 -
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In the end this is a private matter. I really dont understand all this goverment involvment. If they were aircorps cadets "stranded" abroad because a training facility went bust,then i would understand. But this is not a state issue, its a private matter, they engaged into something without proper research and now the cheeky cadets are expecting help from goverment?
These guys need a reality check big time. Its now time to take them uniforms off and wake up!!
There are more important people out there that could do with help of goverment, not this little rich snobs0 -
Kieran Byrne had been appointed the director for corporate affairs in PTC. WIT were linked to PTC through their joint aviation degree. This was a non standard relationship as the degree appears to have been run by PTC and not WIT. The ground school elements seemed to make up a lot of the degree. I presume WIT made money out of this by having extra students signed up with them and PTC made money from the normal flight training etc. Kieran Byrne was in WIT when this was developed.Guramoogah wrote: »
What role did ex-WIT director Professor Kieran Byrne have at PTC?
This is exactly what I was wondering. Why did PTC get to use WIT logos and website? They got air miles from that! Was Kieran Byrne getting a kickback from it? Obviously was.0 -
Questions need to be asked of WIT and their policy to allow third parties use logos, website etc. etc. PTC earned respectability out of it and it clearly stinks of rural Ireland 'contacts' making things happen that otherwise wouldn't be allowed elsewhere.Kieran Byrne had been appointed the director for corporate affairs in PTC. WIT were linked to PTC through their joint aviation degree. This was a non standard relationship as the degree appears to have been run by PTC and not WIT. The ground school elements seemed to make up a lot of the degree. I presume WIT made money out of this by having extra students signed up with them and PTC made money from the normal flight training etc. Kieran Byrne was in WIT when this was developed.0 -
Statement on arrangements for Pilot Training College students
10 July 2012: The Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, has requested that the IAA make arrangements to help repatriate any self-funded PTC students at Florida Institute of Technology who wish to return home.
To facilitate this, the IAA has made arrangements with Aer Lingus to accommodate students on flights from Orlando to Dublin between 11th July and 1st August 2012.
Students who wish to avail of this offer must register their details with the Irish Aviation Authority at info@iaa.ie
Onward travel arrangements for those not domiciled in Ireland may also be arranged.
The IAA has notified the students of these arrangements via the Florida Institute of Technology's information portal.
For self-funded PTC students who have already returned from Orlando, Florida, may have their air fare refunded to the value of a one way economy class fare by submitting their details to info@iaa.ie
I would like to know why the minister has asked for this ?
Come on Leo lets get "the truth" that you normally are so fond of spouting.
I just hope anyone training with Fligth Safety, EASA, OFT, Naples, etc turn up looking for their free flight home.Guys, this has gone from flaming PTC for this fiasco to blaming the students and having a go at RTE and the government.
Seriously, put the blame where it belongs back at PTC. Sure the lads were incredibly naive but the same could be said for the airlines that used PTC.
Whatever way you look at it, they've learned a hard lesson and some may had their career ambitions killed stone dead. So I won't begrudge them a plane fare home.
The students have to take a share of the blame for the fiasco they find themselves in.
They signed up with an organisation that had a huge chunk of negative connotations attached to it.
Lots of people had warned about PTC, but yet some of these kids signed up in the last year.
AFAIK there was even a post around here somewhere where someone rediculed those warning about PTC.
When the fook are people going to start taking personal responsibility for the decisions they make ?
Have we now reached a situation in this country where everyone else is meant to compensate those who make stupid decisions ?
It looks like it to me.
And I do view anyone handing over €80,000 upfront to an aviation training organisation (any aviation organisation which is unbonded and no escrow accounts) as stupidity.
And that is before even factoring in the reputation of PTC.
As far as I can recollect some small would be property developers have used the naivety excuse as a reason why they shouldn't repay their debts.
Hell one claimed they didn't read the contract.I am not allowed discuss …
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I've no problem letting the students take some of the blame for their plight. But I'd just like to put the emphasis back where it belongs, right on PTC's and Mr Edgeworth's doorstep.
I do think the students or their parents have been sufficiently punished. They've lost all the their money, some of them their opportunity to become a pilot. Most criminals are never fined that much. The crime of naivety doesn't deserve that.0 -
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I've no problem letting the students take some of the blame for their plight. But I'd just like to put the emphasis back where it belongs, right on PTC's and Mr Edgeworth's doorstep.
I do think the students or their parents have been sufficiently punished. They've lost all the their money, some of them their opportunity to become a pilot. Most criminals are never fined that much. The crime of naivety doesn't deserve that.
Don't worry just because I blame the students doesn't mean I don't blame PTC.
I also think the likes of IAA & Dept of Transport need to properly regulate flight schools and organisations that offer extensive expensive training.I am not allowed discuss …
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I'll just say it. I'm a former PTC student but finished with them over a year or so ago. Before starting and handing over any money I did my research. That included calling a handful of both current and students that had just completed training there. The opinions then were generally positive. The worst comments were that sometimes you had to "keep on top of them" if you had any issues but that it would always be sorted.
I didn't pay all up front but rather in multiple installments. The most I would have been out of pocket if they had shut down while I was there is close to 10k. That would have been bad but nowhere near the amount many current students have most likely lost now.
My experience in Florida was fantastic. For the most part everything ran smoothly. The instructors were great and things were done in a timely manner. I worked my ass off over there and it has paid off now. I put my social life on hold in the 3 or so weeks leading up to exams.
The problems I had with PTC came towards the end of my time with them back on the Waterford side. Not nearly as organised, multiple tech issues with aircraft but I did complete training in a relativly efficient manner. Around the time I left I started hearing more and more negative stories about what was going on in Florida, things deteriorated a little.
I also want to mention that I had a one on one conversation with the main guy in the news as of late. I knew straight away that this guy was bad news and he was in it for only one reason, the money but I had almost completed training at this stage.
As for the attitude of some PTC students. I agree with some comments. I saw it myself but please don't paint everyone with the same brush. I also talked to a couple Oxford guys. Their heads barely fit through the door.
What the PTC students are asking for now is over the top and they shouldn't get what they are asking for. However I can't fault them for their efforts and trying to have something done. So you think they should just roll over and accept their fate? Ask for everything and you may get something but only ask for something and you may get nothing. After some thought I think the IAA have some responsibility in this and agree with their decision to pay for airfares home. After all it was the IAA's failure to regulate that has caused this to happen in the first place. Despite the multiple audits and all expenses paid trips out to Florida for many of their employees they failed to find any issues in regards to financial stability. Finally I agree with some sentiments here about us putting the blame back on PTC and its top guys as well as the IAA and stop with the bashing of PTC students and their misfortunes.0 -
Dog eat dog is just the way of life. What gets to me is that these students are getting treatment I and others wouldn't get if similar happened us elsewhere. They were clearly reckless in their judgement and should they get any more than flights(which I think is generous enough) I will be shocked.IngazZagni wrote: »I'm quite surprised at the attitudes of many members of this forum. But this industry has high supply and low demand at the moment and that breeds a dog eat dog enviornment. So in that sense it's not really surprising when you think about it. That also means opinions are in plentiful supply.
Surely, the students would have had contingency money for flights in case of the unexpected(family sickness, school going bust etc. etc.). If it is true, which I doubt it is, that they couldn't pay for flights home it shows again their reckless judgement in choosing PTC and going to the States.The cost of flights to and from the States was included in the amount paid to PTC. It stated that in the contract as well.
Who was this accredited by? Who gave the lectures? What was the exact arrangement with WIT?PTC have been running a course in WIT. A BA in something like Aviation Science,I can't remember the actual course name but it does exist.. Or did.
You'll find that you have misquoted. The I.A.A. is a commercial semi-state that does not receive State funding. Therefore, any money out of the I.A.A.'s kitty is money out of our kitty. The reason it is not State funded is because of the few thousand Ryanair guys paying for licences, the affluent aircraft leasing industry here and ATC fees for fly overs. That does not excuse it from bailing out the unfortunate few. Everybody should be treated the same.The IAA is a commercial organisation, they do not receive state funding so you as a taxpayer will contribute nothing. However those of us that pay fees to the IAA will be paying for this. I don't know what to think really. I'm a bit indifferent to it really.
I just can't see how they could give preference to these students. It has to be against recruitment rules (advertising, due process, etc. etc.). I hope all they meant was possibly flights home from Orlando? It's a joke if they do.happy_head wrote:As for IALPA requesting Aer Lingus' help, this is pure disgraceful! Im guessing they mean giving some of these students a position in the next cadet scheme!
Iaa get most of there money from the atc ops side, the rest is piddly compared to that money.so everyone saying it's coming out of you're pockets to pay for the lads to come home is totally untrue!! They also don't audit the finances of a flight school, not there job, they are safety! If you want to blame someone over the financialsituation, you should be talking to the revenue.
Just a few facts for you.0 -
If it's like the ESB they would pay a dividend back to government. For the ESB that was €70m last year. Either way it is govenment money and therefore those spending it (Leo Varadkar in this case) are accountable to us.Bobinkerry wrote: »so everyone saying it's coming out of you're pockets to pay for the lads to come home is totally untrue!!0 -
If it's like the ESB they would pay a dividend back to government. For the ESB that was €70m last year. Either way it is govenment money and therefore those spending it (Leo Varadkar in this case) are accountable to us.Bobinkerry wrote: »so everyone saying it's coming out of you're pockets to pay for the lads to come home is totally untrue!!
Nope it's not government money and no dividends are paid to government, so it's the iaa money, not tax payer.0 -
Whether or not money goes back to the exchequer it is ultimately at least offsetting expense by the government. Is the I.A.A. not a government agency? Why then are the students looking for the Irish government to do anything for them? It is State money that is paying for flights home for the students, one way or another...Bobinkerry wrote: »Nope it's not government money and no dividends are paid to government, so it's the iaa money, not tax payer.Financial Report 2010 wrote:In common with many other government bodies, the Irish Aviation Authority deals in the normal
course of business with other government bodies and departments, such as Dublin Airport
Authority plc, ESB, the Department of Transport, and Met Eireann. In addition, in the normal
course of business, the Authority transacts with certain Irish banks which have become wholly
or partially owned by the Irish State. All of the Authority’s transactions with such banks are on
normal commercial terms.
The ultimate controlling party is the Department of Finance.0 -
Whether or not money goes back to the exchequer it is ultimately at least offsetting expense by the government. Is the I.A.A. not a government agency? Why then are the students looking for the Irish government to do anything for them? It is State money that is paying for flights home for the students, one way or another...Bobinkerry wrote: »Nope it's not government money and no dividends are paid to government, so it's the iaa money, not tax payer.Financial Report 2010 wrote:In common with many other government bodies, the Irish Aviation Authority deals in the normal
course of business with other government bodies and departments, such as Dublin Airport
Authority plc, ESB, the Department of Transport, and Met Eireann. In addition, in the normal
course of business, the Authority transacts with certain Irish banks which have become wholly
or partially owned by the Irish State. All of the Authority’s transactions with such banks are on
normal commercial terms.
The ultimate controlling party is the Department of Finance.
The iaa is not a government agency, it funds itself, it doesn't get a penny from the government and it earns it's own money and funds itself and makes it's own profit, so it's different to all the other semi state companies. Why the students are looking for the government to pay,I've no idea, but it's worked, it's a good will gesture.0 -
Bobinkerry wrote: »The iaa is not a government agency, it funds itself, it doesn't get a penny from the government and it earns it's own money and funds itself and makes it's own profit, so it's different to all the other semi state companies. Why the students are looking for the government to pay,I've no idea, but it's worked, it's a good will gesture.
So, I suppose the ESB isn't State owned either then?
I think you'll find that it is the Irish government that are obliged under ICAO to provide navigation facilities, S&R, customs, ATC etc. etc. etc., a lot of which would fall under the remit of the IAA.
I think you're very mistaken.0 -
So, I suppose the ESB isn't State owned either then?Bobinkerry wrote: »The iaa is not a government agency, it funds itself, it doesn't get a penny from the government and it earns it's own money and funds itself and makes it's own profit, so it's different to all the other semi state companies. Why the students are looking for the government to pay,I've no idea, but it's worked, it's a good will gesture.
I think you'll find that it is the Irish government that are obliged under ICAO to provide navigation facilities, S&R, customs, ATC etc. etc. etc., a lot of which would fall under the remit of the IAA.
I think you're very mistaken.
sorry,I think you're very mistaken, it's a semi state company, semi, but they do not, not, get any government funding, not a penny,n All the stuff i said is also true.anyway, not the point, the students coming home is not being paid from tax payers money, fact.0 -
TO ALL
IT IS SAD AND DISHEARTENING TO SEE SOME OF THE DISGUSTING COMMENTS POSTED BY SOME IGNORANT PEOPLE ABOUT THE PLIGHT THAT HAS BEFALLEN US.
WE FEEL WE HAVE BEEN FAILED BY EVERYONE. NOT JUST BY PTC BUT BY THE GOVERNMENT FOR IT FAILURE TO RECOGNISE THEY ARE PARTIALLY TO BLAME FOR THIS FIASCO.
ENTERPRISE IRELAND ( A SEMI STATE BODY ) FINANCIALLY BACKED PTC TO INEVITABLY PROFIT FROM US. THE IAA ( A SEMI STATE BODY ) HAD THE RESPONSIBILITY TO ENSURE THAT PTC WAS ECONMICALLY VIABLE. PTC FAILED IN ITS RESPONSIBILITY AND OBLIGATIONS TO ITS STUDENTS.
IF YOU WERE TREATED THE WAY WE WERE TREATED AND FAILED THE WAY WERE FAILED YOU WOULD BE DO EVERYTHING YOU CAN TO BRING ATTENTION TO IT IN AN EFFORT TO KEEP THE DREAM ALIVE AND ACHIEVE IT.
FOR MANY UNFORTUNATELY, THEIR DREAMS ARE TRULY DEAD WITH OUT ASSISTANCE AND THIS IS WHAT FOR FIGHTING FOR.0 -
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ALL DO NOT JUDGE WHAT YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT
PRESS RELEASE 05-07-2012 - CURRENT STATUS - URGENT - PTC TRAINEE STUDENT PILOTS STRANDED IN FLORIDA
To Whom It May Concern,
This is a press release on behalf of the Pilot Training College (PTC) Student body currently left stranded in Melbourne, Florida, USA. For many months there has been ongoing issues involving PTC and their American Flight Training Provider, Florida Institute of Technology (FIT). Within the last week these issues have come to head, culminating in the termination of the contract by FIT to continue to provide training to PTC students currently enrolled with FIT. Over the past week PTC Students have been provided some false and misleading information by CEO and Chairman Mike Edgeworth. He has on numerous occasions said that there are ongoing communications with FIT to reslove the problems however there has not been the meetings to the extend that PTC have been supposedly been involved in with FIT.
Here are some details on our situation:
• As of the 26th June at 12.41EST Florida Institute of Technology (FIT) have cancelled the contract to continue to train PTC students with FIT.
• As of 19.00EST July 2nd the Florida Branch of PTC (PTCF) has ceased to operate.
• There are currently around 80 self funded students now in Melbourne, Florida, with all our training currently suspended.
• As of 04.45EST today, the 5th of July, PTC Students in Florida have yet to recieve any word officially from PTC Ireland since the 3rd of July.
• The information which was given by PTC in this statement, on the 3rd, said they "were working with senior management in Florida", however there has been no management in Florida since the closure of PTCF on July 2nd.
• It is now our firm belief that from previous statements issued by PTC CEO Mike Edgeworth, was designed to stall PTC students and enviably dimish our chances in salvaging any funds paid to PTC. Thus allowing PTC to be in the best position, regarding the companies financial future at our expense.
• On average most students has given, in good faith and under the assumption that there were no issues or financial difficulties currently with PTC in Ireland or PTC in Florida, around €85,000 to provide us with the required training to take us from zero hours in an aeroplane to being a fully qualified JAA Commercial Pilot, ready to be hired by airlines in Europe and further afield.
• PTC is an international organisation and has many students from many different countries currently enrolled on its courses. These countries include Ireland, Northern Ireland, England, Scotland, Wales, France, Sweden, Finland, Germany, Switerland, India, Nigeria and Kenya.
PTC have been working inconjunction with Florida Institute of Technology (FIT) for over two years now since terminating from Flight Safety International Inc. (FSI) in Vero Beach, Florida. Over the past few weeks, discussions have been taking place between the two schools and unfortunately, the contract between them was terminated by FIT. The information we were given regarding this issue stated that it was a disagreement in training provisions and payments between the two schools.
The students have been left stranded, and as it stands, due to the contract being terminated we have 21 days to now leave the country by 17th July, as our M1 status visa is no longer valid. The accommodation FIT provided PTC students will be unavailable after the 15th of July. This leaves us in a predicament as in keeping with our PTC contracts we are in great risk of being in the country illegally. In any industry, any person will realise that this is not in any means an ideal situation for someone to be in.
At this present moment, the PTC office in Florida has closed. This in turn has left the students with no PTC liaison on the ground in America whatsoever between PTC and us. PTC Ireland have been made aware of this however they still maintain that there operations in Florida are running smoothly. This unfortunately is not the case and the Irish Aviation Authority has confirmed the stoppage of training and all related operations with regards to PTC in Florida.
As of the 4th of July the Irish Aviation Authority (IAA) has temporarily suspended the IAA approval for PTC to provide training here in Florida and also in Ireland, pending an IAA investigation into the current situation. Also the IAA are helping to facilate the smooth transfer of students away from PTC to FIT and other flight training providers in Ireland and Europe. However for most people they will not have the funds to pursue this option as no financial compensation can be offered from the IAA and that studetnts themselves will most likely have to take the financial burden of the loss of their money.
Students have contacted their own public representatives, at Government level, in their home countries to make them aware of their current situation. We can disclose that every member of Dáil Éireann, Seanad Éireann and The Assemebly of Northern Ireland has been contacted via e-mail of the current situation and many have corresponded back to us. However we have yet to recieve any official word from the Department of Froeign Affairs or Dept. of Transport in both countries.
We have also have made contact with a prominant Irish news company and they currently have members of their staff on the ground liasing with us in Melbourne, Florida. Something which PTC have failed to do. And it is with PTC we currently have our money invested to provide us with this sort of support and contact. What have we paid for? PTC continue to say that the students are their primary concern yet lack of support and direct contact with us has shown us this is not the case.
From the latest statement from PTC Ireland to a leading Irish newspaper we have found many flaws in what the Irish media have recieved from PTC.
PTC state that "Some, but not all, of these students will lose money as PTC has already paid for services that FIT has not yet delivered on." We have recieved information from a very reliable source from within PTC themselves that PTC currently owe FIT money and not visa-versa. We can also elaborate further that FIT has confirmed this. As part of the contract which had been drawn up by PTC and FIT every month PTC would pay FIT $500,000 for the training in Florida. From our understanding, as we have contracts to PTC Ireland only and not PTC Florida and FIT, we believe that students will lose money only through PTC and not FIT as stated by CEO Mike Edgeworth above.
PTC have said that they have "been advised by our Irish lawyers, Orpen Frank, ...the possibility of commercial litigation against FIT" due to "FIT’s non-performance" and FIT's failure to deliver "services" and the "direct impact on PTC and its students, both in the US and also in Ireland." At this time we cannot comment on the current litigation case that FIT may face as to not jepaordise these legal proceedings in anyway.
A leading Irish newspaper has reported today on PTC's current "perilous financial situation". From our source within PTC it is our belief that PTC have debts ranging in millions of euro. It also has reported that PTC are in the process of trying to sell the aircraft which its sister company the Shemburn group currently own in Ireland. We understand that PTC for some time have been in financial difficulties and that in an effort to increase cashflow into the company, an increase in students was need in the company. PTC had decided that it would need on average around 20 new students each month which it started to carry out since Janurary of this year. Previously PTC Florida recieved students on a bi-monthly basis.
PTC have commented that "Those who have recently enrolled in PTC (39 people) should not be financially impacted." We have recieved no info that any students have been directly contacted so far as so who infact these students might be. Also mentioned in the statement by CEO Mike Edgeworth is that "For those who have actually recently commenced training (25 people), the financial impact should be minimal. " Like the previous students none of these students have been contacted as to who this will affect. They have said that the students worst affected would the the students " who are in the middle of their fifteen month course are still awaiting for FIT to deliver their part of the syllabus and PTC cannot control this." However we believe the latter part of this quote is false and that we can confirm, and it should now be common knowledge, that PTC is in financial troubles and that PTC cannot pay for the continuation of training as they are in debt to FIT.
According to the statement "PTC has separately entered into commercial negotiations with FIT to try to resolve the situation." Our inside source from PTC has also confirmed that this is infact not the case and that PTC have infact appointed a person to commence "wind down" actions of the PTC facilty and its assests in Florida.
Although we have been put in the worst situation possible we would like to stress with the upmost importance, that the ground training and flight training provided by the employees of PTC has been as to the highest standards at each stage of training and has been conducted in the most professional manner. Unfortunately, like ourselves, these employees have been failed by the appalling, irresponsible and deceiving manner in which senior management has conducted their business, which potentially has ruined the careers and dreams of so many young aspiring pilots!0 -
PRESS RELEASE 10-07-2012 – RESPONSE TO PTC STATEMENT ON 09-07-2012
To Whom It May Concern,
This is a press release on behalf of the Pilot Training College student body in response to latest PTC statement on Monday July 9th.
We were delighted to finally receive some communication after 6 days of silence from PTC management. However despite this we are dismayed with the latest update from PTC Waterford which yet again has failed to meet out expectations.
This latest statement has created yet more confusion and frustration among the students over the future of our training. A primary source of this frustration is PTC’s claim that an alternative training arrangement with Oxford Aviation Academy has been found. This claim lacks any assurance of continuation of training and offers only to provide training if two conditions exist:
1) An offer is made by Oxford Aviation Academy to the individual student to begin a new flight training programme under a contract and
2) Students have the funds themselves available to continue their training without those they provided to PTC.
If such an agreement comes to fruition, it leaves whatever students Oxford decide not take on without a solution and shows PTC’s determination to wash their hands of the obligations they have to their students.
The statement mentions that, ‘’70 students have already had their training taken care of by their respective airlines’’. This leads us to believe PTC have resolved these students training issues when the fact is the airline have moved their students from PTC to another training provider. The majority of these students were with Air Astana, Kazakhstan’s national airline, who our source tells us are planning to commence litigation proceedings against PTC. It is not clear what Flybe’s stance on the issue is at this time.
The 39 students which PTC refer to as having “not been financially impacted” by the PTC failure to complete their training, in fact did not commence training with PTC. They have payed their deposit of €3500 to PTC and this money will only exist as a discount should they decide to take up the offer to train at Oxford Aviation Academy.
Once again, PTC cite the ‘‘ongoing dispute between FIT and PTC’’ as the reason for the interruption to flight training. This is false. The additional costs incurred by the students is not as a result of the dispute between the two organizations, as claimed by the statement, but due the fact no one can tell us where our money is when it should be in the accounts of PTC Waterford. We would like to stress that at our contracts was always with PTC Waterford and at no point did we have contracts with PTC Florida or FIT for that matter. In the case of some students, PTC directly provided their training in Florida. They received no flight training from FIT as of yet. Based on this fact, these students should be unaffected by the current dispute and should be able to receive a full refund of their remaining balance with PTC. Students still have yet to learn the location of the money paid to PTC.
PTC state they are continuing in their efforts to resolve the matter with FIT over the “contractual issues” which exist. However FIT’s Director of the College of Aeronautics Glenn Vera confirmed at a student meeting on the 2nd of July that PTC had not even attempted to negotiate with FIT since the termination of the contract on the 25th of June, despite PTC issuing several statements that negotiations were ongoing.
The fact the statement was not signed off by any individual leads us to believe no one is willing to confirm the claims made in this statement or provide us with more information on the solutions they claim to be working toward.
We believe that this statement is deliberately misleading and contains blatantly untrue claims. This has been of an overall strategy to delay our effort to get what is owed to us and distort the truth about what PTC have done to help their students who are left financially ruined and disillusioned with aviation as whole.0 -
QUOTE
“Minister Leo Varadkar statement on RTE's News at One where he tried to define the limits of the governments responsibility by equating the issue of pub licences with a licence that is issued to an organisation involved in the education of students gives us some idea why all the young Irish people out here in Florida find themselves in this dreadful situation. With this mentality from a government minister we are ready to cast our eyes down in despair. “
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APPEAL from PTC Students in Florida to Ireland's TD's and Senators
As you may be aware, the students of PTC and their families are set to lose what is an astronomical amount of money for an ordinary person and their families following the sudden termination of their flight training. Many families in order to put their sons and daughters through pilot training have had to either use entire family life savings, remortgage homes, borrow huge sums of money from financial institutions or other family relatives in order to finance the training and education involved in becoming a commercial, qualified pilot.
We find it very difficult to accept the dire situation we now find ourselves and our families to be in. Not only having to bear the huge financial losses that we and our families may never recover from, but furthermore, the ever more impending reality that our dreams and aspirations of becoming a commercial pilot are destroyed along with the careers that we could have had.
It is our view that the IAA, being the overseeing regulator that issued approval based on audits for PTC in November 2011, are partially responsible for the mess we now find ourselves in. They had the responsibility to provide the health check for this company to see that it was fit for purpose to serve as a flight training school, and especially that it had the proper financial controls in place to ensure that it merited IAA approval. We are dismayed to find that IAA's version of evaluating and approving PTC's financial status consisted of merely looking over a furnished auditor's statement before giving the company the green light to go ahead and take our money.
We understood and expected that a school that carried a license from the IAA would be one that would be responsible, properly run and safe for us to pay our money into. Little did we know at the time how shallow the IAA assessment was, and how meaningless an IAA approval was to count for in terms of being genuine and trustworthy.
If we need further deception, we seemingly had it in the fact that Enterprise Ireland is the majority shareholder in PTC owning 71% of the shares. The fact that the State endorsed this company with its own money was done with a purpose to ultimately get our money - and in that it was spectacularly successful. With this type of perverted government initiative and encouragement we are bewildered to know in what direction we should look to find any honest involvement in all of this.
Minister Leo Varadkar response to our situation is pathetic. His concern for us all very fine but it is no substitute for competence, or indeed the simple virtue of taking some responsibility for the State's failure in this fiasco. The fact that he cannot perceive that the State has some accountability for the problems we face - or that he won't admit to it - speaks volumes for the attitude of our alleged political leaders.
His statement on RTE's News at One where he tried to define the limits of the government’s responsibility by equating the issue of pub licences with a licence that is issued to an organisation involved in the education of students gives us some idea why all the young Irish people out here in Florida find themselves in this dreadful situation. With this mentality from a government minister we are ready to cast our eyes down in despair.
The Irish State has failed so many young Irish people and driven them out of the country in their thousands. We attempted through our own efforts and money to try and improve ourselves and build our own careers. But once again the Irish State failed us with senior civil servants and politicians allowing weak regulations and casual evaluations of companies involved in flight training. It is typical poor Irish standards - and we have to suffer for it.
We feel that in the current Irish education system, we are the third class citizens of the system. Unlike our counterpart students who are entitled to £3000 grant under public education entitlements we receive no financial assistance, and it seems even less support. We are left entirely to our own devices within an incompetently regulated area of aviation education.
In these circumstances, where young Irish people are facing what is for some an event of personal destruction, we plead for the help of any caring Irish politicians to act urgently on our behalf.
We urge you to make whatever efforts you can to get the government to face up to the fact that it owes some responsibility to us. Government and political failure helped create this mess. It is reasonable for us to now ask and expect that something right can be done for once in place of the usual ineptitude. Surely as a people we are capable of doing what is right when something is so obviously wrong.
Ends
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The President of the Irish Airline Pilots Association, Captain Evan Cullen, said that this is not the first time this has happened and he wants an inquiry into the matter.
“I think there is a huge responsibilty now on the State because the State filed to regulate and the State has failed to enforce current regulations. The Irish Aviation Authority has the capacity to seek evidence that the organisation has sufficent resources in place to complete these programmes. We are calling for the Minister to investigate this matter. “0 -
Second APPEAL from PTC Students to Ireland's TD's and Senators
Irish governments are now renowned for their failure towards young Irish people. The decision of Fine Gael and Labour to refuse a Senate or Dail debate about this complete debacle is more of the same. The State through its failures is part of this catastrophe that has befallen us. The government through its agency, the IAA, licensed the Pilot Training College as a fit and proper organisation to provide us with the education we were seeking, and so it should publicly admit and accept its failures and its responsibility.
At the same time, Minister Varadkar, who casually equates a pub licence with that of an organisation offering career training, should let us know the last time he knew of a student presenting a pub with €85.000 to provide him with an education.
We call on all fair minded public representatives to give time and consideration to this serious situation. We urge you to press the government to assist us in a meaningful way. Through the IAA and its approval of PTC, the government was part of the deception that drew us and our families into the deep trouble we are now in.
It is time for the government to accept and understand that the state has played a part in the terrible situation that has caused so much heart break and has destroyed so many futures.
Ends0 -
BTW typing in all capitals is the internet equivalent of shouting - no need for it.
What about small construction sub-contractors who got stung when the main contractor on a Public building project collapsed ? Did the Government or commisioning semi-state help them out ? Not a bit and they went to the wall.
Just how did you guys get RTE to keep this in the news for so long ? Forget about being pilots - careers in PR / Corporate Communications await you lads !
Nobody here is laughing at your situation , others here have suffered when a flying school has gone under . The point being made is that in other cases of this happening not a government finger was lifted to help - people are asking what / why are you folks any different ?
Have you been told your money is 'gone ' or is there anything to be salvaged ?0 -
Unfortunatly you're going to have a lot of people on here that dont support your cause, such is life on an Internet forum.
You don't have to remind people here about chasing their dreams, everyone who has trained to be a pilot has chased their dream in some way. Many have failed along the way due to not being selected for subsidised training, their FTO getting into trouble, not being able to afford it or for medical reasons etc. Everyone is on your side as regards wanting to become a pilot.
The reality is that many people who post here, especially those that self funded their training, greatly disagree with the government assistance or always had a bad opinion or experience of FTC and have been wating for something like this to happen. Plenty of older pilots have seen it all before.
The mantra of pay as you go has often been advised here every time a pilot wannabee asked for advice or the questions "recommend a flight school" gets asked. If you search for the history in this forum regarding PTC you'll see what I mean....
So apologies if its disheartening to read some posts here but imagine you walk into a busy Aeroclub bar and 50 people hear your story, the same outcome will apply i'm afraid.PTC STUDENTS wrote: »TO ALL
IT IS SAD AND DISHEARTENING TO SEE SOME OF THE DISGUSTING COMMENTS POSTED BY SOME IGNORANT PEOPLE ABOUT THE PLIGHT THAT HAS BEFALLEN US.
WE FEEL WE HAVE BEEN FAILED BY EVERYONE. NOT JUST BY PTC BUT BY THE GOVERNMENT FOR IT FAILURE TO RECOGNISE THEY ARE PARTIALLY TO BLAME FOR THIS FIASCO.
ENTERPRISE IRELAND ( A SEMI STATE BODY ) FINANCIALLY BACKED PTC TO INEVITABLY PROFIT FROM US. THE IAA ( A SEMI STATE BODY ) HAD THE RESPONSIBILITY TO ENSURE THAT PTC WAS ECONMICALLY VIABLE. PTC FAILED IN ITS RESPONSIBILITY AND OBLIGATIONS TO ITS STUDENTS.
IF YOU WERE TREATED THE WAY WE WERE TREATED AND FAILED THE WAY WERE FAILED YOU WOULD BE DO EVERYTHING YOU CAN TO BRING ATTENTION TO IT IN AN EFFORT TO KEEP THE DREAM ALIVE AND ACHIEVE IT.
FOR MANY UNFORTUNATELY, THEIR DREAMS ARE TRULY DEAD WITH OUT ASSISTANCE AND THIS IS WHAT FOR FIGHTING FOR.0 -
Every year, Irish Student Pilots get burned at a flight school that goes belly up.
What is the big fuss with PTC?
This happens all the time.
I know of a lad who just lost €40K who is from Longford after the school he was at went bust in California.
Every year I hear about this happening. Just tough luck lads.
A flight school goes bust every day somewhere around the world!0 -
As Jesus nut has pointed out many FTO go bust burning students look at Sigmar/Cabair/Bristol etc yet there was no mention in the media about these companies folding,As for the IAA over seeing the the financial sides of things with FTO it is not in their remit they oversee training standards licences etc not the money end of things.
Saying the IAA is responsible for all matters relating to aviation for someone who wants to work in the industry is a bit naive, just say there was a security breach or a spot of food poisoning on board a flight it's not up to the IAA to deal with those incidents as there is a separate entity that would investigate them.
The majority of us on this forum either fly for a living or do recreational flying or work behind the scenes within the aviation business and have seen airlines go bust and people loss there jobs,Were not the sort to laugh at peoples misfortune in loosing money with schools that go bust but as others have pointed out there is a load of people in worst situations(Priory hall etc) these people have no homes to go to paying in excess of 300k for houses that they will probely never live in again.0 -
PTC STUDENTS wrote: »TO ALL
IT IS SAD AND DISHEARTENING TO SEE SOME OF THE DISGUSTING COMMENTS POSTED BY SOME IGNORANT PEOPLE ABOUT THE PLIGHT THAT HAS BEFALLEN US.
WE FEEL WE HAVE BEEN FAILED BY EVERYONE. NOT JUST BY PTC BUT BY THE GOVERNMENT FOR IT FAILURE TO RECOGNISE THEY ARE PARTIALLY TO BLAME FOR THIS FIASCO.
ENTERPRISE IRELAND ( A SEMI STATE BODY ) FINANCIALLY BACKED PTC TO INEVITABLY PROFIT FROM US. THE IAA ( A SEMI STATE BODY ) HAD THE RESPONSIBILITY TO ENSURE THAT PTC WAS ECONMICALLY VIABLE. PTC FAILED IN ITS RESPONSIBILITY AND OBLIGATIONS TO ITS STUDENTS.
IF YOU WERE TREATED THE WAY WE WERE TREATED AND FAILED THE WAY WERE FAILED YOU WOULD BE DO EVERYTHING YOU CAN TO BRING ATTENTION TO IT IN AN EFFORT TO KEEP THE DREAM ALIVE AND ACHIEVE IT.
FOR MANY UNFORTUNATELY, THEIR DREAMS ARE TRULY DEAD WITH OUT ASSISTANCE AND THIS IS WHAT FOR FIGHTING FOR.
Out of interest what research did you do before you went with PTC for your training? Did you ever get warned not to pay up front, or hear anything bad about the company?
Answer this honestly and explain to us why you still handed over so much money and now expect sympathy.0 -
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I feel bad for these guys but I think you are going about this the wrong way. You guys getting the free flight home that you probably really did not need was the government washing their hands of the situation.0
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