PILOT TRAINING COLLEGE(PTC) GOING OUT OF BUSINESS

bkehoe

Apparently anyone posting anything on the page that they don't agree with will be band too. :rolleyes:

Delancey

Anyone care to PM me the link to the PTC students Facebook page ? Cannot find it myself ( perhaps I'm technically challenged )

Delancey

donkey balls wrote: »

oh sweet jesus I'm just after looking at the facebook page and the crap their posting is unreal I wonder are we the ones mentioned by these coments .

To you great member of the public please keep supporting us and lets also overcome the negativity of certain individuals posting on Uncertified Forums

That is probably a reference to this forum and perhaps also pprune where a lot of posters are minded like here.

bkehoe

Delancey wrote: »

Anyone care to PM me the link to the PTC students Facebook page ? Cannot find it myself ( perhaps I'm technically challenged )

Click the text in the quote from saspeir and that'll bring you straight to the page.

phoenix999

saspeir wrote: »

I certainly hope I haven't come across as negative. I just wouldn't want others getting something the rest of us wouldn't. It has to be fairness for all. I do feel a lot of sympathy. I'd never wish it on anybody.

I think it's a positive development that the Gardaí are supporting you and I hope they find in your favour.

Perhaps they would get more sympathy if they found a spokesman who can actually write proper English and put forward their (not there) case in an intelligent manner.

donkey balls

Check out the banners they have cringe worthy is an under statement,If some of these PTC students have some connection within RTE why don't they do a prime time investgate on Mr edgeworth and the fact that the company were still sending e mails about flight training upto 6/8 weeks ago as I received one.
Even though I'm well passed my sell by date for fATPL.:rolleyes:

saspeir

phoenix999 wrote: »

Perhaps they would get more sympathy if they found a spokesman who can actually write proper English and put forward their (not there) case in an intelligent manner.

I agree. It's something that gets on my nerves too. But I don't think it's confined to the PTC students. I find it a lot on boards in general.

The same goes for:
It's vs. its
There vs. They're vs. Their
Being vs. Been
to vs. too
General use of the apostrophe.

I ain't a grammar snob but yeah... We could all do with some improvements I guess.

phoenix999

saspeir wrote: »

I agree. It's something that gets on my nerves too. But I don't think it's confined to the PTC students. I find it a lot on boards in general.

The same goes for:
It's vs. its
There vs. They're vs. Their
Being vs. Been
to vs. too
General use of the apostrophe.

I ain't a grammar snob but yeah... We could all do with some improvements I guess.

I agree. I don't have an issue with people on boards. We often make stupid errors. But it's a different story when issuing 'campaign' press releases, updates or whatever else the PTC students want to call them. They need to up their game on all fronts if they want to be taken seriously. Who would want to fly in a plane piloted by a guy with literacy skills comparable to my 12 year old sister (and she would probably be offended by the comparison). Rant over.

Delancey

@phoenix999 - Be careful not to ' diss ' them on FaceBook or you could get band

I wonder will Phoenix magazine unearth more information about Edgeworth ?
The Garda Fraud Squad angle will likely vanish up it's arse , how many companies go wallop and no investigation takes place ?

donkey balls

Delancey wrote: »

@phoenix999 - Be careful not to ' diss ' them on FaceBook or you could get band

I wonder will Phoenix magazine unearth more information about Edgeworth ?
The Garda Fraud Squad angle will likely vanish up it's arse , how many companies go wallop and no investigation takes place ?

Someone mentioned in another post about the phoenIx magazine what was mentioned in it about them

phoenix999

Delancey wrote: »

@phoenix999 - Be careful not to ' diss ' them on FaceBook or you could get band

I wonder will Phoenix magazine unearth more information about Edgeworth ?
The Garda Fraud Squad angle will likely vanish up it's arse , how many companies go wallop and no investigation takes place ?

I wouldn't want to confuse them with any difficult words. They are a rather young fresh faced bunch. Out of curiosity, I asked my father (just a plain lorry driver) what he would have done if I turned round at 18 years old and asked for 90grand to be a pilot. After nearly collapsing with laughter, he said 'probably tell you to go f*** yourself'. Says it all really.

Delancey

donkey balls wrote: »

Someone mentioned in another post about the phoenIx magazine what was mentioned in it about them

They reported that Edgeworth had gone on a property buying spree and he and his kids had between them bought no less than 14 houses in and around Waterford in the last couple of years.

bombs away

saspeir wrote: »

It was under instruction of Min. Leo Varadkar that the flights were paid for

Minister Varadkar did nothing of the sort nor would he have the mandate to have been able to order the IAA to do anything, while semi-state there are no government appointees to the board nor do they receive any state funding.

The minister gave advice and the IAA happened to agree with it, there's a difference.

RadioRetro

Today's Irish Times; "MINISTER FOR Transport Leo Varadkar has ruled out any financial compensation for student pilots left without classes due a dispute involving a Waterford-based flight school.

In Dublin yesterday, Mr Varadkar and the chief executive of the Irish Aviation Authority (IAA) Eamon Brennan met representatives of “self-financing” student pilots affected by the dispute. These are students who have paid their own fees, rather than been sponsored by an airline or employer.

Speaking afterwards, Mr Varadkar said he had “huge sympathy for the situation in which the trainees and their families find themselves”.

He made a commitment to continue to engage with them but he ruled out any financial compensation. The students later said the outcome of the meeting was “very disappointing”."

Linky to article.

saspeir

bombs away wrote: »

Minister Varadkar did nothing of the sort nor would he have the mandate to have been able to order the IAA to do anything, while semi-state there are no government appointees to the board nor do they receive any state funding.

The minister gave advice and the IAA happened to agree with it, there's a difference.

Do your research son! One of the affected PTC guys by any chance?

Statement issued by the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport wrote:

10 July 2012: The Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, has requested that the IAA make arrangements to help repatriate any self-funded PTC students at Florida Institute of Technology who wish to return home.
To facilitate this, the IAA has made arrangements with Aer Lingus to accommodate students on flights from Orlando to Dublin between 11th July and 1st August 2012.
Students who wish to avail of this offer must register their details with the Irish Aviation Authority at info@iaa.ie
Onward travel arrangements for those not domiciled in Ireland may also be arranged.
The IAA has notified the students of these arrangements via the Florida Institute of Technology's information portal.
For self-funded PTC students who have already returned from Orlando, Florida, may have their air fare refunded to the value of a one way economy class fare by submitting their details to info@iaa.ie
Students may also contact the IAA Helpline at 01 603 1111 from 09:00 a.m. - 5:30 p.m. tomorrow 11th July 2012 for further information.

bombs away

saspeir wrote: »

Do your research son! One of the affected PTC guys by any chance?

Myabe you should follow your own advice,

sasper wrote: »

The Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, has requested that the IAA make arrangements to help repatriate any self-funded PTC students at Florida Institute of Technology who wish to return home.

There's a big difference between requesting and ordering. The IAA were under no obligation to carry that out.

And no for the record I've never been a student of PTC, big assumption on your part there although irrelevant in any case.

And as for "Son" I'd appreciate it if you could leave out the patrionising tone next time you make a comment.

saspeir

bombs away wrote: »

And as for "Son" I'd appreciate it if you could leave out the patrionising tone next time you make a comment.

Requested/directed... all the same. By the way, a request doesn't equate to advice either.

Do you seriously think the Department would issue a media statement and that the IAA would ever subsequently refuse? The Department does very much have a say in the IAA, being the major shareholder in it. You're being pedantic. Remember, you implied the IAA had nothing to do with the government above. They are one and the same, bar an element of independence being a semi-state.

bombs away

saspeir wrote: »

Requested/directed... all the same. By the way, a request doesn't equate to advice either.

Do you seriously think the Department would issue a media statement and that the IAA would ever subsequently refuse? The Department does very much have a say in the IAA, being the major shareholder in it. You're being pedantic. Remember, you implied the IAA had nothing to do with the government above. They are one and the same, bar an element of independence being a semi-state.

Just like the Minister could not direct/request the air traffic controllers to go back to work after a 4 hour stoppage a few years back. Very different in my opinion. While the government maybe a shareholder in the iaa they have very little input into it's day to day runnings and that was what I was referring to.

Minister Varadkar requested, the IAA obliged. Simple as. And a request can be based on advice received

saspeir

bombs away wrote: »

Just like the Minister could not direct/request the air traffic controllers to go back to work after a 4 hour stoppage a few years back. Very different in my opinion. While the government maybe a shareholder in the iaa they have very little input into it's day to day runnings and that was what I was referring to.

Minister Varadkar requested, the IAA obliged. Simple as. And a request can be based on advice received

You're both right and wrong.

Yes, they don't have involvement on a day-to-day basis. That being the structure of a semi-state.

The Minister appoints the boards and can interject to make directions/requests/whatever as is necessary. The Minister would also send in questions from the opposition that would then be read out by him in the Dáil as if he wrote the thing himself.

Bobinkerry

bombs away wrote: »

saspeir wrote: »

Requested/directed... all the same. By the way, a request doesn't equate to advice either. Do you seriously think the Department would issue a media statement and that the IAA would ever subsequently refuse? The Department does very much have a say in the IAA, being the major shareholder in it. You're being pedantic. Remember, you implied the IAA had nothing to do with the government above. They are one and the same, bar an element of independence being a semi-state.

Just like the Minister could not direct/request the air traffic controllers to go back to work after a 4 hour stoppage a few years back. Very different in my opinion. While the government maybe a shareholder in the iaa they have very little input into it's day to day runnings and that was what I was referring to.
Minister Varadkar requested, the IAA obliged. Simple as. And a request can be based on advice received

You're completely right bombs away, the iaa were NOT directed to pay for the flights, they were requested, and obliged.it's the iaa money that payed for it, therefore the iaa had the right to say no.however they weren't gonna do that because, yes, it was out in the media,n wouldn't have looked good.in my opinion, the iaa n government didn't even have to do that, but did as a good will gesture.now, as i said before, they, the action group, need to leave the government and iaa alone to get on with what they do, and go find edgeworth to try and get there money back.they ain't getting it from taxpayers!

edgeworthless

phoenix magazine article attached

Mod edit: Can't publish copyright material without permission.

edgeworthless

This is all Public Knowledge, I am not outing anyone or anything. There is nothing here that is not accessible by anyone at anytime.
Perhaps the money is here somewhere?

Shemburn Ltd (Michael Edgeworth, Diarmud Maher, Anthony Howard Kember, George Edgeworth}

Pilot Training College of IRELAND Ltd (Shemburn Ltd, Michael Edgeworth, Ciaran Doyle, George Michael Edgeworth, Judith Mary Kember, Anthony Howard Kember, Ann Edgeworth, Michael Flynn, John Donlan, Porema ltd)

Pilot Training College CAMBRIDGE Ltd (Shemburn Ltd, Michael Edgeworth)

A and O Properties Ltd (Shemburn Ltd, Michael Edgeworth, Ruth Edgeworth, Harry Everard)

Aircraft Technical Support Ireland Limited (Shemburn Ltd, Michael Edgeworth, Laura Edgeworth, Ciaran Doyle, Andrew Fleming, Paula Horan, Gill Hanlon,)

Pilot Training Systems Ltd (Shemburn Ltd, Mike Edgeworth, Ciaran Doyle, Declan Walsh, Private research ltd,)

RTF systems Ltd (Shemburn Ltd, Ciaran Doyle, Anthony Howard Kember, Declan Walsh)

Skytrace Limted (Michael Edgeworth, George Edgeworth, George M. Edgeworth, Ciaran Doyle, Victor Ostapenko)

Alphatel Ltd (Michael James Edgeworth, Declan Walsh, Porema Limited, Marc O’Connor, Sean Kavanah)

ATS Telecommunications Ltd (M.J. Edgeworth)

Wolcar Ltd (George Michael Edgeworth, Michael Roche, Francisco Dominguez, Brendan Glynn, Mary Glynn)


Plus in Florida

Pilot Training College llc
PTC RE llc (with Paul Glover)
Allgifts llc
N4923T llc (with Lorraine Skinner)

Su Campu

So this whole fiasco has gone off the radar all of a sudden. Where are the students now? Gone very quiet (thankfully).

Jumboman

Su Campu wrote: »

So this whole fiasco has gone off the radar all of a sudden. Where are the students now? Gone very quiet (thankfully).

If someone had robbed me of 80k I would not be gone quiet. If I was them I think I would of started a riot outside the dail:pac:

Delancey

Su Campu wrote: »

So this whole fiasco has gone off the radar all of a sudden. Where are the students now? Gone very quiet (thankfully).

I guess that Varadker has firmly stomped out the stupid suggestion the Government pick up the tab for the fiasco . Given this reality the students have to look to PTC which is a total waste of time ( even RTE can see that ).

Tenger

Jumboman wrote: »

If someone had robbed me of 80k I would not be gone quiet. If I was them I think I would of started a riot outside the dail:pac:

I have to agree with the sentiment, however the overall opinion on boards is that protesting outside the Dail and blaming the IAA/Govt is a waste of time. The students need to be chasing the directors of PTC, these are the guys who took money given in good faith for a service and failed to deliver the service. Thus that should be their focus and goal, not making banners to wave in front of media outlets who will move on in a day or two.

donkey balls

Was reading in the Irish daily mail that the students have been in contact with The Gardai fraud squad about trying to get there money back.

saspeir

I know the IAA have gone out of their way for the students. Apart from flights, atpl exam fees and advice does anyone know if the IAA have waived fees on licence conversion or any other fees?

urajoke

donkey balls wrote: »

Was reading in the Irish daily mail that the students have been in contact with The Gardai fraud squad about trying to get there money back.

What from the Gardai, they are getting desperate, next they will be asking for money back from the church collections they gave to !

CatFromHue

urajoke wrote: »

What from the Gardai, they are getting desperate, next they will be asking for money back from the church collections they gave to !

If you'd had a company shaft you mid way through an 80,000 euro course would you not be desperate?

McNulty737

urajoke wrote: »

What from the Gardai, they are getting desperate, next they will be asking for money back from the church collections they gave to !

This is definately a job for the guards....I didn't support them going after the government to pay for their training (although the IAA do have alot to answer for), but i definately do support their efforts in going after the crooks that ran ptc.

donkey balls

While I didn't agree with the PTC students trying to get the govt to pay towards finishing off there training,I don't have a problem with them getting in touch with the fraud squad to see if anything can be done letting the likes of Edgeworth off without a fight to try and get their money back could mean that in another few years he could set up another school and do the same again.

edgeworthless

COPIED FROM PPRUNE

"So the Fraud squad are after edgeworthless now...about time too.

Garda Fraud Squad considers probe into pilot training college | Irish Examiner

Lets see if the Garda are as corrupt as the government.

Ireland, your reputation hangs on this......

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/garda-fraud-squad-considers-probe-into-pilot-training-college-203676.html

I hear that statements from former employees are being solicited

Bring it on...."

As the game of Monopoly says " go to Jail, Go Directly to Jail do not pas Go!"

urajoke

CatFromHue wrote: »

If you'd had a company shaft you mid way through an 80,000 euro course would you not be desperate?

BTW I was joking about them looking for their money from the Gardai but I guess the joke went over your head.

CatFromHue

urajoke wrote: »

BTW I was joking about them looking for their money from the Gardai but I guess the joke went over your head.

Don't give up the day job :pac:

Su Campu

edgeworthless wrote: »

COPIED FROM PPRUNE

"So the Fraud squad are after edgeworthless now...about time too.

Garda Fraud Squad considers probe into pilot training college | Irish Examiner

Lets see if the Garda are as corrupt as the government.

Ireland, your reputation hangs on this......

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/garda-fraud-squad-considers-probe-into-pilot-training-college-203676.html

I hear that statements from former employees are being solicited

Bring it on...."

As the game of Monopoly says " go to Jail, Go Directly to Jail do not pas Go!"

And that in itself is a highly intelligent post :rolleyes:

Keepon

Looks like the court has thrown PTC a life line.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0907/breaking39.html

Lustrum

Keepon wrote: »

Looks like the court has thrown PTC a life line.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0907/breaking39.html

While that may be good new for the guys that have money tied up with PTC and haven't gone elsewhere yet (I know a lot of the Air Astana guys are at Atlantic in Cork now), any investor with half a head would be mad to put money into this. There's no way any prospective student with half a head would touch PTC now after what has happened, as long as they do what it seems many of the current crop didn't do and do some research beforehand.

I can't imagine any airline would be interested either in sending cadets anymore, time perhaps for PTC to completely shut up shop

tankbarry

But what if the Investor comes in and run's it properly. If that happens then isn't it worth it if its run properly students only pay for what they do with no up front fee's then I could see it working.



Just make sure the old boss is not anywhere near it

Keepon

tankbarry wrote: »

But what if the Investor comes in and run's it properly. If that happens then isn't it worth it if its run properly students only pay for what they do with no up front fee's then I could see it working.

Just make sure the old boss is not anywhere near it

Well, that is the same as starting up a new firm altogether, so if these are clued-up new investors,actual business people, wouldn't it be better for them to start from scratch instead of buying a dud? If they've any nowse at all why would they want to put fresh good money in a zombie business with an appalling track record, And also with useless management who lost millions, and no chance of ever gaining confidence with customers again.

On the other hand if you're a victim of this mess (such as my nephew, the poor fekker), you might hope that some new financiers will stump up money which will repay even a bit of what you've lost. But why would any investor find that attractive. Still, there are fools out there, as this whole story has shown us.

The lad is hoping for a cut of any new funds, but I've told him - dream on.

bluecode

Atlantic and NFC keep going, no need for them to send people to Florida. No need for them to have have fancy promises.

Seems to me that's the business model to copy.

As for the excuses of Irish weather. I know one pilot who is close to the commercial limit of 100 hours a month in spite of our weather. Even I managed 70 hours in one month VFR flying in Ireland.

PTC were a victim of their own marketing.

LeftBase

tankbarry wrote: »

But what if the Investor comes in and run's it properly. If that happens then isn't it worth it if its run properly students only pay for what they do with no up front fee's then I could see it working.



Just make sure the old boss is not anywhere near it

Given the problems with government in Ireland I am thinking of starting my own political party if anyone wants to join? I'm going to call it "The National Socialist Workers Party". It's nothing like the one they had in the 30s/40s though! I have some snazzy new armbands and brown shirts for us all to wear too!:)

bkehoe

Don't know if anyone has seen this yet but it was reported on local radio in the past few days;
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/courts/pilot-training-college-hopelessly-insolvent-after-proposed-investor-pulls-out-3243631.html

There had been rumours of some activity in EIWF but I expect that's all to come to an end again now.

wellboytoo

PtC was put into liquidation at three o clock yesterday.

Delancey

It had been reported a few days ago that the fabled ' investor ' was about to put money in but a condidtion of this investment was that the courts would set aside the training contracts of the students. In otherwords regardless of what happened the students were up sh1t creek.

LeftBase

Delancey wrote: »

It had been reported a few days ago that the fabled ' investor ' was about to put money in but a condidtion of this investment was that the courts would set aside the training contracts of the students. In otherwords regardless of what happened the students were up sh1t creek.

I dont think any investor has 5.5m to throw away at a few gullible kids!

There were fresh claims the other days that the parents and general financially disadvantaged groups to do with the students want the govt to give them their money back! back:rolleyes:

I can tell ya if that happened....I'd be home to the local TD to pick up my 60k from the Exchequer!

Keepon

bkehoe wrote: »

Don't know if anyone has seen this yet but it was reported on local radio in the past few days;
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/courts/pilot-training-college-hopelessly-insolvent-after-proposed-investor-pulls-out-3243631.html

There had been rumours of some activity in EIWF but I expect that's all to come to an end again now.

Your naievety is charming! My nephew and a couple of other ex students went down there early today to check things out. Judging by their premises and talking to staff at the airport it seems the PTC owners are up and running again with a new company, training students from the Gulf. Though apparently when asked the students have little or no idea of the recent history of this fabled outfit.

The lesson is clear.

In spite of supposed regulatory oversight, company legislation, directors' responsibilities, supposed auditing requirements, etc., Ireland is still a place where a company can make contracts without having any means of fulfilling them, can take in money from unsuspecting customers days before it collapses, can wreck the reputation of an industry, can refuse to communicate with anyone, can run up close to €10m in debts, can close shop with no comeback whatsoever - and then start up the next morning as if nothing had happened.

We all thought the phoenix company syndrome was dead and gone in a new Ireland where customers and creditors had increased protection.

Nope. PTC rises from the ashes.

Well done Ireland.
Well done IAA.
Well done auditors.
Well done Office of Corporate Enforcement.
Well done consumer protection legislation.

NOT!!

LeftBase

Keepon wrote: »

The lesson is clear.

In spite of supposed regulatory oversight, company legislation, directors' responsibilities, supposed auditing requirements, etc., Ireland is still a place where a company can make contracts without having any means of fulfilling them, can take in money from unsuspecting customers days before it collapses, can wreck the reputation of an industry, can refuse to communicate with anyone, can run up close to €10m in debts, can close shop with no comeback whatsoever - and then start up the next morning as if nothing had happened.

Unsuspecting? Clearly! A quick google search prior to handing over 80k may have put a stop to that...:rolleyes:

Well done Ireland.
Well done IAA.
Well done auditors.
Well done Office of Corporate Enforcement.
Well done consumer protection legislation.

NOT!!

The IAA's people were telling anyone who would listen to avoid PTC because the house of cards was clearly on that way down.

It annoys me how the students try and blame everyone else for their problems when really at the end of the day it was all their own fault. If I leap off a half finished bridge people can blame the government for not finishing it....but I must shoulder some blame for jumping off in the 1st place given that if I asked anyone they'd tell me it was a very bad idea....but I know better so I'll just jump anyway!:rolleyes:

PLEASE!

Keepon

LeftBase wrote: »

Unsuspecting? Clearly! A quick google search prior to handing over 80k may have put a stop to that...:rolleyes:

That is a valid but separate point. I say unsuspecting because I am focusing on the actions of the company here, and the general environment of consumer and legislative oversight, not on the streetwise level of the customers.

LeftBase wrote: »

The IAA's people were telling anyone who would listen to avoid PTC because the house of cards was clearly on that way down.

Unfortunately for my young relative they told him nothing of the sort. Instead they put their "approved FTO" sticker on the brochure. That in the real world gives a degree of assurance. Of course, the lads should have had extra-sensory perception to divine what you say was really in the IAA's minds. Sadly they didn't.

LeftBase wrote: »

It annoys me how the students try and blame everyone else for their problems when really at the end of the day it was all their own fault.

No, it wasn't "all their own fault". It was the fault of a corporate entity which made the cynical decisions that it made. Your point that the students (read: cheated customers) would have been wise to make more informed judgements is a valid and interesting point. However it is not the main point of my post, which is concerned with the issues of corporate responsibility and oversight, and how little has changed in that arena.

LeftBase wrote: »

If I leap off a half finished bridge people can blame the government for not finishing it....but I must shoulder some blame for jumping off in the 1st place given that if I asked anyone they'd tell me it was a very bad idea....but I know better so I'll just jump anyway!:rolleyes:

A better analogy would be if I were drive on to a finished bridge that says "approved by the Irish Government" and it collapses, then I should have some degree of annoyance when they tell me, oh, we meant the paint job was approved, we didn't mean the structural integrity of the bridge was approved. You should have checked that out on some web forum somewhere, you silly person!"

While I respect your viewpoint, I feel that to constantly repeat "the students should have known. It's all their fault" is to deflect the debate from the real need for reform in corporate, legislative and fiduciary oversight in aviation and similar high-cost training. There are plenty of jurisdictions where laws exist for exactly those purposes, and they should be copied and implemented in Ireland a.s.a.p.



Edited for spelling.

LeftBase

A lot of PTC's problems were down to the "bumbling foolery" of it's owners and employees. They were trying to muscle a niche in an industry they did not understand, and some of the tripe they spouted and clearly believed showed that up.

While a con man may be dabbling in illegal activity, this con was paper thin to anyone who wanted to "look behind the curtain". My personal viewpoint is that no amount of beefed up law etc can protect someone who would give 80k to people without doing a blind bit of research. How do I know that they did no research? The truth is I don't, however if they asked myself or anyone else I know linked in any way, shape or form to aviation we would have put them on red alert! A simple google search flags up pages and pages of horror stories.

The IAA knew that the PTC structure was rubbish and that the standard of training and flight test performance was just getting over the fence... barely! However for the IAA to step in would have been a big thing as the training was taking place in the states where FAA standards are a little more.."lax" than they would be here. The IAA would have been accusing the FAA inspectors of negligence and that would have been a can of worm right there.

The truth is that this "bridge" was never finished. It always had a gaping hole. Both the IAA and airlines frequently questioned why PTC graduates had holes in their knowledge and handling skills. It now turns out that in latter years ATPL classes were conducted via question bank with little or no reference to the books so as to get the box of ATPL theory ticked and move on. Some MEIR training and tests were conducted with ALT hold and NAV control engaged also. I was actually told this when in the IAA getting a rating on my licence not too long ago. I was aghast at some of the carry on! Both the IAA and airlines had suspected such goings on but never had solid proof.