Lease almost up

afkasurfjunkie

have been renting an apartment through a letting agent for the past 3 years and our lease is up in aug. we are hoping to buy a house in the next couple of months (weeks, if everything goes to plan) so dont want to extend our lease for another 12 months. however we dont want to give up the apartment either, in case our plans dont work out.
would the letting agency be likely to let us renew our lease for another 3 months with option of 3 more months after that? we have been the ideal tenants so far, rent is always paid on time. just wondering how flexible they might be?

not even wrong

Why do you feel the need to renew your lease at all? You have been there for 3 years so your tenancy is protected under Part 4 of the Residential Tenancies Act.

afkasurfjunkie

not quite sure what that part 4 bit means though.
can we just continue on as we are and not have to sign another 12 month lease? do we then just need to give 56 days notice once we decide to move out?

odds_on

afkasurfjunkie wrote: »

not quite sure what that part 4 bit means though.
can we just continue on as we are and not have to sign another 12 month lease? do we then just need to give 56 days notice once we decide to move out?

You got it in a nut shell.
Much more convenient for you to have a Part 4 tenancy than another fixed term agreement as you can give notice (written and 56 days as you say, the maximum time for a tenant) at any time.

The landlord/agent cannot force you to have another fixed term lease if you don't want one. By not signing a new fixed term lease you automatically have a Part 4 agreement afforded you by your rights under the Residential Tenancies Act 2004.

afkasurfjunkie

odds_on wrote: »

afkasurfjunkie wrote: »

not quite sure what that part 4 bit means though.
can we just continue on as we are and not have to sign another 12 month lease? do we then just need to give 56 days notice once we decide to move out?

You got it in a nut shell.
Much more convenient for you to have a Part 4 tenancy than another fixed term agreement as you can give notice (written and 56 days as you say, the maximum time for a tenant) at any time.

The landlord/agent cannot force you to have another fixed term lease if you don't want one. By not signing a new fixed term lease you automatically have a Part 4 agreement afforded you by your rights under the Residential Tenancies Act 2004.

Thanks for that.

gibo_ie

not even wrong wrote: »

Why do you feel the need to renew your lease at all? You have been there for 3 years so your tenancy is protected under Part 4 of the Residential Tenancies Act.

WRONG!
Quote from PRTB:
At the end of the 4 years, a new tenancy will commence and the
cycle begins again on the same basis as outlined above. The
following are other key features of Part 4 tenancies:
 Tenants may opt to continue in occupation after a fixed
term tenancy that has lasted 6 months or more expires, but
they must notify the landlord of an intention to remain, between one
and three months before the fixed term lease is due to expire.

So as they are not there 4 years then they don't have this because they are based on a lease. If you want to renew for 3 more months i am sure the LL wound be only too happy once they know in advance, much better than an empty property.
After 4 years if you move to Security of Tenure under Part 4, you can still be given notice very easily, just as you can give notice!
Read the doc here for facts... http://public.prtb.ie/DownloadDocs/Residential%20Tenancies%20Act%202004%20-%20A%20Quick%20Guide.pdf

odds_on

gibo_ie wrote: »

WRONG!
Quote from PRTB:
At the end of the 4 years, a new tenancy will commence and the
cycle begins again on the same basis as outlined above. The
following are other key features of Part 4 tenancies:
 Tenants may opt to continue in occupation after a fixed
term tenancy that has lasted 6 months or more expires, but
they must notify the landlord of an intention to remain, between one
and three months before the fixed term lease is due to expire.

So as they are not there 4 years then they don't have this because they are based on a lease. If you want to renew for 3 more months i am sure the LL wound be only too happy once they know in advance, much better than an empty property.
After 4 years if you move to Security of Tenure under Part 4, you can still be given notice very easily, just as you can give notice!
Read the doc here for facts... http://public.prtb.ie/DownloadDocs/Residential%20Tenancies%20Act%202004%20-%20A%20Quick%20Guide.pdf

Although your quote is correct, you should read the paragraphs previous to it. In summary, they explain that after a tenant has been in occupation for six months he acquires all the rights of a Part 4 tenancy. Thus, if the first lease is a fixed term lease for one year, after six months, the tenant has still a fixed term lease (until it expires at the end of the fixed term) PLUS all the rights of a Part 4 lease (which are in general not as secure as a fixed term lease) which give him the right to remain in the property for a further 3.5 years.

Thus, at the end of a first fixed term lease (usually one year), the tenant may opt for either another fixed term lease which gives him more security of tenure as the landlord can basically only evict the tenant if the latter breaks the terms of the lease (his obligations). With a fixed term lease the tenant cannot vacate without losing his deposit at any time unless he gets a replacement tenant who becomes an assignee.

On the other hand, if the tenant opts for a Part 4 lease instead, the landlord can evict a tenant on a number of grounds, two of which are if the landlord wants the property for his own use or if he intends to sell the property within the following 3 months. Further more, the tenant may give notice to leave at any time with the appropriate notice period.

At the end of this 4 year cycle, as you correctly state, the cycle recommences again which if still a Part 4 tenancy gives the landlord the right to evict the tenant during the first 6 months without giving a reason. Furthermore, the notice periods begin again at 28 days. This tenancy is then called a "Further Part 4 tenancy".

not even wrong

gibo_ie wrote: »

WRONG!
Quote from PRTB:
At the end of the 4 years, a new tenancy will commence and the
cycle begins again on the same basis as outlined above. The
following are other key features of Part 4 tenancies:
 Tenants may opt to continue in occupation after a fixed
term tenancy that has lasted 6 months or more expires, but
they must notify the landlord of an intention to remain, between one
and three months before the fixed term lease is due to expire.

So as they are not there 4 years then they don't have this because they are based on a lease

Please don't offer advice unless you know what you are talking about. Part 4 rights take effect after six months, it does not take 4 years, you have misinterpreted it badly.

gibo_ie

not even wrong wrote: »

Please don't offer advice unless you know what you are talking about. Part 4 rights take effect after six months, it does not take 4 years, you have misinterpreted it badly.

Actually wrong, i do know what i am talking about and have had reason to confirm this previously with the PRTB, otherwise whats the point in a lease at all?...

22. What happens if I have a Fixed Term Contract or a lease in place?
The existence of a fixed term tenancy does not preclude the operation of Part 4.[1] Part 4 runs with a fixed term tenancy, so that the continuous occupation by a tenant under a fixed term tenancy for a period of 6 months, means the tenant shall, as in normal course, become entitled to the protections of a Part 4 tenancy. In cases of fixed term tenancies however, the rights under Part 4 only apply to the extent that they benefit the tenant over and above the rights afforded to him or her under the terms of the fixed term tenancy.

During a lease or fixed term contract, a termination notice can only be served by a landlord for reasons of a breach of any of the conditions listed in the Tenancy Agreement / Lease. The grounds specified in the Act to terminate tenancies (Section 34) are not applicable during the term of the Tenancy Agreement / Lease, unless they themselves are incorporated as part of the agreement.

So i was advised if the tenant did not wish to continue in a new lease then tenancy expires at end of lease unless they have given notice in writing (and accpteed) that a part 4 lease would commence immediately upon termination of current lease!

sunnysoutheast

gibo_ie wrote: »

Actually wrong, i do know what i am talking about and have had reason to confirm this previously with the PRTB, otherwise whats the point in a lease at all?...

22. What happens if I have a Fixed Term Contract or a lease in place?
The existence of a fixed term tenancy does not preclude the operation of Part 4.[1] Part 4 runs with a fixed term tenancy, so that the continuous occupation by a tenant under a fixed term tenancy for a period of 6 months, means the tenant shall, as in normal course, become entitled to the protections of a Part 4 tenancy. In cases of fixed term tenancies however, the rights under Part 4 only apply to the extent that they benefit the tenant over and above the rights afforded to him or her under the terms of the fixed term tenancy.

During a lease or fixed term contract, a termination notice can only be served by a landlord for reasons of a breach of any of the conditions listed in the Tenancy Agreement / Lease. The grounds specified in the Act to terminate tenancies (Section 34) are not applicable during the term of the Tenancy Agreement / Lease, unless they themselves are incorporated as part of the agreement.

So i was advised if the tenant did not wish to continue in a new lease then tenancy expires at end of lease unless they have given notice in writing (and accpteed) that a part 4 lease would commence immediately upon termination of current lease!

Really not sure what point you are trying to make. The OP's lease is up next month and they can simply rely on their Part 4 tenancy until their purchase goes through, giving the 8 weeks notice as required.

It's not clear to me whether they have reached the end of their third year's lease or if they have been on a lease for a year followed by a further two years under part 4, but it doesn't matter in this scenario (although they can be removed after 3 1/2 years under part 4).

The tenant is suppose to inform the landlord of their intention, but even if they don't any sanctions are limited:
"If you do not notify your landlord you cannot be refused coverage under Part 4 but you may have to compensate the landlord for any financial loss she/he has incurred because you did not notify him/her of your intention to remain in the tenancy."

SSE

odds_on

gibo_ie wrote: »

WRONG!
Quote from PRTB:
At the end of the 4 years, a new tenancy will commence and the
cycle begins again on the same basis as outlined above. The
following are other key features of Part 4 tenancies:
 Tenants may opt to continue in occupation after a fixed
term tenancy that has lasted 6 months or more expires, but
they must notify the landlord of an intention to remain, between one
and three months before the fixed term lease is due to expire.

So as they are not there 4 years then they don't have this because they are based on a lease. If you want to renew for 3 more months i am sure the LL wound be only too happy once they know in advance, much better than an empty property.
After 4 years if you move to Security of Tenure under Part 4, you can still be given notice very easily, just as you can give notice!
Read the doc here for facts... http://public.prtb.ie/DownloadDocs/Residential%20Tenancies%20Act%202004%20-%20A%20Quick%20Guide.pdf

Originally Posted by not even wrong
Please don't offer advice unless you know what you are talking about. Part 4 rights take effect after six months, it does not take 4 years, you have misinterpreted it badly.

gibo, Maybe you should read what you wrote in your post (above)

So what type of tenancy do the tenants have at the end of 3 years if they signed a fixed term lease for one year, didn't advise the landlord that they were staying on and continued living in the property for a further two years? Thus they have been in occupation for 3 years but less than 4 years and more than 1 year after the termination of the fixed term lease.

Again, you quote:

Quote from PRTB:
At the end of the 4 years, a new tenancy will commence and the
cycle begins again on the same basis as outlined above.

For a new tenancy to commence, there must have been a previous tenancy cycle (of 4 years which is the way a Part 4 tenancy runs). When does the first cycle begin and finish?

not even wrong

gibo_ie wrote: »

So i was advised if the tenant did not wish to continue in a new lease then tenancy expires at end of lease unless they have given notice in writing (and accpteed) that a part 4 lease would commence immediately upon termination of current lease!

I don't know who you were talking to in the PRTB but they are wrong too. Your own quote even disagrees with you:

The existence of a fixed term tenancy does not preclude the operation of Part 4.[1] Part 4 runs with a fixed term tenancy, so that the continuous occupation by a tenant under a fixed term tenancy for a period of 6 months, means the tenant shall, as in normal course, become entitled to the protections of a Part 4 tenancy.

Improbable

What it means is:

Under Part 4 of the Residential Tenancies Act 2004, if you have been renting for at least 6 months and haven't been given a written notice of termination, you automatically acquire security of tenure in 4-year cycles. Any tenancy, therefore, that has lasted more than 6 months is a 'Part 4 tenancy' or a 'further Part 4 tenancy'. After 4 years of your tenancy has passed, a new tenancy starts. The same 4-year cycle can begin again, leading to a further Part 4 tenancy.

odds_on

gibo_ie wrote: »

Actually wrong, i do know what i am talking about and have had reason to confirm this previously with the PRTB, otherwise whats the point in a lease at all?...

So i was advised if the tenant did not wish to continue in a new lease then tenancy expires at end of lease unless they have given notice in writing (and accpteed) that a part 4 lease would commence immediately upon termination of current lease!

At the end of a fixed term lease, the tenant has several options.
1. Sign a new fixed term lease for more security of tenure. - i.e. tenant can only be evicted if he breaches his obligations under said lease.

2. Advise the landlord between 3 months and 1 month prior to the expiration of the fixed term, that he wishes to remain in the property under his rights to Part 4 tenancy and either sign a Part 4 agreement. Failure to sign a part 4 agreement makes the contract a non written contract.

3. Not advise the landlord that he will remain in the property in which case he may or may not have a written agreement. By not advising the landlord of his intention to remain in the property does not preclude this right. However, in this case he may be liable to the landlord for any reasonable expenses of the landlord who may have re-advertised the property for rent.

Zamboni

odds_on wrote: »

At the end of a fixed term lease, the tenant has several options.
1. Sign a new fixed term lease for more security of tenure. - i.e. tenant can only be evicted if he breaches his obligations under said lease.

2. Advise the landlord between 3 months and 1 month prior to the expiration of the fixed term, that he wishes to remain in the property under his rights to Part 4 tenancy and either sign a Part 4 agreement. Failure to sign a part 4 agreement makes the contract a non written contract.

3. Not advise the landlord that he will remain in the property in which case he may or may not have a written agreement. By not advising the landlord of his intention to remain in the property does not preclude this right. However, in this case he may be liable to the landlord for any reasonable expenses of the landlord who may have re-advertised the property for rent.

Just a quickie.
Can a landlord simply decline in the second scenario above?
i.e. new fixed term or you're out on the last day of the current lease?

odds_on

Zamboni wrote: »

Just a quickie.
Can a landlord simply decline in the second scenario above?
i.e. new fixed term or you're out on the last day of the current lease?

I used to think that he could, but I was wrong. The tenant's Part 4 rights prevent a landlord evicting a tenant at the end of a fixed term lease even if the landlord insists on a fixed term lease. If the tenant wants security of tenure then he should sign another fixed term lease.

However, if the tenant feels that he may not want to stay for another full term (what ever length that may be) then he may be better with a Part 4 tenancy either written or not, as he is fully covered under the RTA 2004. It should be remembered that a Part 4 tenancy is in fact the minimum requirement available hence it is easier for either side to get out of though it must be said, much easier for the tenant than for the landlord.

As a landlord is in business to rent out his property, it would seem to me that if a tenant is abiding by the terms of the lease, why would he want to evict? If the tenant is breaching the terms of the lease, then there are obvious remedies and/or as a last resort via the PRTB - eventually!

Zamboni

Can a landlord increase the rent if the tenant invokes the Part 4?

odds_on

Zamboni wrote: »

Can a landlord increase the rent if the tenant invokes the Part 4?

Basically, a landlord may review the rent once in any 12 month period bearing in mind that the rent must be the market rate. However, the landlord is obliged to advise the tenant in writing at least 28 days before the new rent is applicable during which time the tenant may make a claim with the PRTB if he feels the an increase is unjustifiable.