Joe Higgins, Clare Daly, and Joan Collins misuse expenses

Sully

Just after the Oireachtas and the country got over Sinn Feins latest expenses controversy, another batch of opposition TDs claiming to represent the working class are now embroiled in a new expenses controversy.

Joe Higgins, Clare Daly, and Joan Collins have been claiming expenses, under the travel allowance, from the state / tax payer for travelling around the country for their anti-government campaign (in particular the household charge).

The controversy broke yesterday after questions emerged whether or not the TDs were entitled to use their travel allowances for anything other than to/from work.

Joe Higgins was quick to respond claiming that "It is absolutely justifiable" to do so and has today slammed the "manufactured controversy" and blamed the Independent Media Group for the latest news on opposition TDs screwing the country to the wall. Richie Boy Barret doesn't, apparently, use the allowances because he was told by the Oireachtas it wasn't permitted.

The Oireachtas this evening have had to come out with yet again another statement to clarify the expenses system and to respond to Joe Higgins claim that it was perfectly acceptable. They have now stated that it was never foreseen the current situation arising where TDs would use the expenses to travel anywhere other than to and from Leinster House and around their constituencies. They are seeking legal advise on the matter.

Source(s):
http://www.thejournal.ie/oireachtas-travel-expenses-household-charge-joe-higgins-clare-daly-508817-Jul2012/

http://www.thejournal.ie/joe-higgins-clare-daly-joan-collins-thomas-pringle-united-left-alliance-expenses-household-charge-boycott-508036-Jul2012/

http://www.thejournal.ie/joe-higgins-clare-daly-household-charge-boycott-absolutely-justifiable-506918-Jul2012/

My own take on this is simple enough. I cant believe that the TDs in question think that it covers travelling all around the country. But even if it actually did, is it not a bit of a contradiction?

Here we have TDs going around fighting against austerity and measures by the government to try recoup money to balance the books. They claim to represent the working class and complain about the harsh taxes, levies and cuts the people have to suffer. Yet they claim a generous wage, always get generous expenses regardless, and have a lovely pension to retire from and now they are abusing the expenses system by milking it for even more money!

I thought this was just a Sinn Fein tactic, but it seems all these left-thinking parties in the Dail who claim to be elected to fight for the working class are all just out to rob the country blind. The rich, the poor, and the very poor – all paying for these TDs wages, expenses, and pension.

They completely contradict their policies.

Am Chile

They are doing what they promised to do pre election which was to fight against Austerity, they re sticking to their pre election promises/commitments at least, pity the same can,t be said about fg/lab-besides think all the leaflets, all the advertising, all the posters, all the travelling and canvassing for the yes vote in the recent referendum would of being used by taxpayers money wheres the media outrage over that? besides its some coincidence this story is the media at the very same time the warning letters have being sent out over the household tax.

This is a politically motivated witch-hunt against people who are unwilling to bend over and take what the IMF/ECB want to dish out. The establishment and their political lapdogs are desperate to stifle all opposition.

Independent Newspapers - owned by two tax exiles (both of whom have provided political donations to Fine Gael) - have been leading the charge trying to drive austerity down the throats of ordinary working class people. They have targetted anyone and everyone who oppose their agenda and the agenda of FG/LP/IMF/ECB - while at the same time ignoring the numerous incidents where government ministers and TDs have been abusing the rules in relation to expenses and political donations. Where was the song and dance from the Indo or the times a couple of weeks ago when Phil Hogan and his officials ran up a bill of €10,000 on a junket to Brazil staying in a €560 a night hotel?

Let's be clear about this - neither Joe Higgins, nor any other Socialist Party or ULA representative has made any personal financial gain out of the expenses that were claimed. The Socialist Party and the ULA have consistently promoted and supported any measure to reduce both the salaries of members of the Dail and expenses and allowances. The political system in this country is designed to preserve the rule of the political establishment through a system of political donations to right-wing parties by big business, corporate control of the so-called 'freedom of the press' (if you are wealthy enough.

Chuck Stone

We need to set up real time financial monitoring of all elected officials. If the Community Welfare Officer can do it for people on welfare then surely we can set up a similar system for our beloved leaders.

Good loser

Joe is an insufferable hypocrite.

He turns every interview into an interminable political party broadcast.

Tortuous and torturous.

When on the attack he claims to have these masterful insights into all these conspiracies mounted against 'ordinary working people' with material for his rants drawn from here, there and everywhere. He covers so much ground that no one can get a fix on what he has said by the time his gallup is interrupted.

When attacked he resorts to labyrinthine detail and semantics to justify the indefensible. Here there is no way in the order he quotes that he is 'obliged' to travel to these protest meetings. He claims it is a movement arising from the people when everyone (with commonsense) knows he personally is the 'onlie begetter' in the whole thing.

He takes us for fools.

Dannyboy83

I think they've seen what politicians can get away with in recent years and I reckon most TDs would chance their arm at anything now.

nelly17

Would Travel Expenses have been claimed when the Pro Fiscal Treaty Campaigners were on the road? or would this have come from seperate funds released?

20Cent

Here is the wording of the legislation
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2010/en/si/0084.html


the amount payable to a member of Dáil Éireann as part of the parliamentary standard allowance for the relevant period in respect of travelling facilities for distances, from the member’s normal place of residence in respect of the distance referred to in that column, to and from Leinster House, overnight expenses and travel expenses which the member is obliged to incur in the performance of his or her duties as a member of Dáil Éireann.

Looks like the media making a story where there isn't one.

jimmycrackcorm

20Cent wrote: »

Here is the wording of the legislation
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2010/en/si/0084.html


the amount payable to a member of Dáil Éireann as part of the parliamentary standard allowance for the relevant period in respect of travelling facilities for distances, from the member’s normal place of residence in respect of the distance referred to in that column, to and from Leinster House, overnight expenses and travel expenses which the member is obliged to incur in the performance of his or her duties as a member of Dáil Éireann.

Looks like the media making a story where there isn't one.

Looks like you're making up the meaning of Obliged!

Perhaps - Ivor Calelly was obliged to commute from Cork for his expenses.

Brian?

A bit naive to use expenses in this manner, but I can see how they think it's justified. They were elected to fight austerity and are doing so.

20Cent

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Looks like you're making up the meaning of Obliged!

Perhaps - Ivor Calelly was obliged to commute from Cork for his expenses.

How so?
They are doing what they were elected to do, the legislation is clear. Personally I don't think any TD should be getting travel expenses at all but this is clearly a manufactured "scandal".

Good loser

20Cent wrote: »

How so?
They are doing what they were elected to do, the legislation is clear. Personally I don't think any TD should be getting travel expenses at all but this is clearly a manufactured "scandal".

What they do - travel to these meetings - is not an obligation on them.

It is something they choose/elect to do - the anthithesis of an obligation.

The money should have come from SP funds or their own pockets.

Legislation should be brought to suspend them from the Dail (without pay) while they are in contempt of it - advocating law breaking.

gandalf

Its amazing how the so called white knights of the ULA have found their way around bending the expenses guidelines with an ability that will would nearly see them being invited to join Fianna Fail.

It shows them up for the hypocrites that they are. Coupled with their average industrial wage lie when they cost us the taxpayers of this country just as much and judging from their expense more that the "bourgeois" TD's that they are always whining about.

There was a time I respected Joe Higgins as a man of principle but he has long since spent that respect. This is just the icing on the cake so to speak.

20Cent

Good loser wrote: »

What they do - travel to these meetings - is not an obligation on them.

It is something they choose/elect to do - the anthithesis of an obligation.

The money should have come from SP funds or their own pockets.

Legislation should be brought to suspend them from the Dail (without pay) while they are in contempt of it - advocating law breaking.

There are performing duties they were elected to do. Think there should be an investigation of all expenses would like to see that happen! (and pigs will fly).

Happyman42

Good loser wrote: »

What they do - travel to these meetings - is not an obligation on them.

It is something they choose/elect to do - the anthithesis of an obligation.

The money should have come from SP funds or their own pockets.

Legislation should be brought to suspend them from the Dail (without pay) while they are in contempt of it - advocating law breaking.

They where elected on a platform to fight austerity that is what they are obliged to do.
Non-story.

Borderfox

another smokescreen so the Government can wag their finger at the anti-austerity group. I wouldnt expect anything less from the (not) Independant Media Group.

Sully

Am Chile wrote: »

They are doing what they promised to do pre election which was to fight against Austerity, they re sticking to their pre election promises/commitments at least, pity the same can,t be said about fg/lab-besides think all the leaflets, all the advertising, all the posters, all the travelling and canvassing for the yes vote in the recent referendum would of being used by taxpayers money wheres the media outrage over that? besides its some coincidence this story is the media at the very same time the warning letters have being sent out over the household tax.

So its perfectly acceptable that they screw the working class and tax payers who are finding the times very tough, all because its in the name of "fighting austerity"? They are doing it at a massive cost to the state and they are not exactly contributing their part to HELPING the states finances and making a small dent in the governments austerity policies. In fact, by claiming a considerably high wage and considerably high expenses they are partly the cause of austerity as the state is spending money where it shouldn't have to. Not forgetting the extra icing on the cake - leaders allowance. Talk about creaming the state.

As for the Yes vote campaign - every single party, group and so on were given a set amount of money for the campaign. Those on the Yes and those on the No. If you exceeded that, by all means but its at your own cost and not at additional cost to the tax payer. All perfectly above board and legit, unlike the claims being made by Joe & Co.

Coincidence? Sounds like a conspiracy theory tbh. Sinn Fein were put under the light recently re: expenses. They were vindicated and told it was within the rules. Joe & Co are operating outside of the rules. If you have nothing to hide and if your doing things above board - what's the harm if its called into question? The majority of the TDs, both sides of the house, are taking the nice wage and expenses with some cases published throughout the year of excessive spending and highlighted. Even Fianna Fail were caught out. Its not like its let loose to dodge attention of something, especially when this item is going to the householders house and seeing as its a pretty big chunk of people not having it in the media as much isn't going to limit any damage to either campaign group.

This is a politically motivated witch-hunt against people who are unwilling to bend over and take what the IMF/ECB want to dish out. The establishment and their political lapdogs are desperate to stifle all opposition.

Its got nothing to do with the IMF/ECB. That's just a silly conspiracy that doesn't stack up.

Independent Newspapers - owned by two tax exiles (both of whom have provided political donations to Fine Gael) - have been leading the charge trying to drive austerity down the throats of ordinary working class people. They have targetted anyone and everyone who oppose their agenda and the agenda of FG/LP/IMF/ECB - while at the same time ignoring the numerous incidents where government ministers and TDs have been abusing the rules in relation to expenses and political donations. Where was the song and dance from the Indo or the times a couple of weeks ago when Phil Hogan and his officials ran up a bill of €10,000 on a junket to Brazil staying in a €560 a night hotel?

Jesus christ its well noted and publicly stated even by a government minister that the Independent Newspapers are by no means fans of FG and the government. Independent Media have been a Fianna Fail supporter for a long time now giving leaders big spreads and attacking the government left right and center.

The Daily Mail were the first to highlight the expenses of Sinn Fein re: Ink Gate. Its not the same paper each time that gets the exclusives. Political donations have been hot on the collar for Fine Gael in the paper for a long time now and the Indo were beating them for Enda Kenny at the New York Stock Exchange with Denis O'Brien plus they revealed about the donations he was giving etc.

The media in Ireland is on a witch hunt to beat politicians around the bush but mostly the government parties (Fine Gael, as Labour makes its own bed) but it has pointed out the hypocritical behaviour from the opposition. Another example is Gerry Adams & his party trips abroad costing thousands, travelling in a superior class in the plan and so on. All before the household tax and letters.

Let's be clear about this - neither Joe Higgins, nor any other Socialist Party or ULA representative has made any personal financial gain out of the expenses that were claimed. The Socialist Party and the ULA have consistently promoted and supported any measure to reduce both the salaries of members of the Dail and expenses and allowances. The political system in this country is designed to preserve the rule of the political establishment through a system of political donations to right-wing parties by big business, corporate control of the so-called 'freedom of the press' (if you are wealthy enough.

You make a gain when you don't have to pay for transport out of your wages. Most of the working class don't get generous wages, expenses, leaders allowance, pensions etc. They campaign for one thing but don't practice in what they preach. They are all talk and absolutely no action. At least Sinn Fein campaign for such and partly act as they preach withdrawing a chunk of their wages and handing it to the party. Now not living on industrial wage seeing as expenses makes it up, its still better then just taking it all for one and not budging.

Sully

Happyman42 wrote: »

They where elected on a platform to fight austerity that is what they are obliged to do.
Non-story.

They pretend to fight against austerity. Lets remember they claim the same wage, and in Joes case more, than needed. They claim expenses, when they don't have to. If they were against austerity, they would live like those who are facing it the hardest. But they don't.

Just because its available - doesn't mean you should use it. Especially if its partly causing more hardship to the people they represent, and its rubbing their nose in it.

Those fighting against austerity are absolutely creaming it.

poeticseraphim

There needs to radical reform in regulation in public office. And it needs to be enforced. This cannot continue it leaves roles of public office very vulnerable to corruption and we have seen where this has gotten us.

Really THAT is the most needed reform ....law and order...

Who cares which side they are on or not whether it's SF Claire Daly....Mick Wallce..

There should be an immediate sacking of those found guilty of flouting the rules with a ban on holding any further public office for life no pension and a fine ...court cases when laws are broken

I am serious..i am sick of this
Tax evasion is a crime Mick Wallace does he face prison???

Hypocrytes.....seriously law and order and regulation ...zealous persuit of those who break the rules and anti corruption policies...or the country cannot function

yore

ClareDaly is elected to represent the people of North County Dublin. She is not a member of the cabinet and has no "national" responsibilities. She was not elected to "fight austerity" in Mullingar or Cork or wherever she was travelling to.

Regardless of the expenses, I hope that the people of North County Dublin remember that Daly spent her time promoting herself and her party on
TV and throughout other constituencies instead of focusing on the issues of the people she was elected to represent. Those other constituencies have their own elected, and well paid, elected representatives.

The only possible outcome of her hypocritical travel is to raise her own profile. It will not, and can not have any practical effect.

It makes it even more laughable that she is doing it on the pretence of trying to convince people to stop paying a tax that is the first step to having a form of a progressive "wealth tax"

yore

Am Chile wrote: »

Let's be clear about this - neither Joe Higgins, nor any other Socialist Party or ULA representative has made any personal financial gain out of the expenses that were claimed.

Am Chile wrote: »

Where was the song and dance from the Indo or the times a couple of weeks ago when Phil Hogan and his officials ran up a bill of €10,000 on a junket to Brazil staying in a €560 a night hotel?

So I'll assume that you are consistent in your logic and that because Phil Hogan doesn't appear to have made any personal financial gain on his junket that you support it fully :rolleyes:


At least Hogan has an official position representing the country! And we can probably safely assume that he travelled there on official government business. Maybe it could have been done it cheaper but the country as a whole probably got better value for that money than for Daly and
Higgin's romantic nights away down the country.

jank

Is anyone surpirsed? Socialists love spending other peoples money. This is a story that is true to form.

20Cent

2 weeks ago 1% of the countries national income was paid out to unsecured unguaranteed bondholders in the most insolvent bank in the world which is also currently under criminal investigation and there wasn't a peep about it in the press
http://namawinelake.wordpress.com/2012/06/24/insolvent-country-in-imf-bailout-programme-to-pay-1-of-its-national-income-this-week-to-unsecured-unguaranteed-bondholders-in-worlds-most-bust-bank/

Last week a man found guilty of contempt of court and who owes the taxpayers 2.8billion walks free.

Letters are sent to thousands of homeowners demanding the household charge of 100 euro.

Then this week a "scandal" emerges which even the Oireachtas doesn't know if its a scandal or not. They are seeking legal advice.

Wake up and smell the coffee folks.

If the expenses rules are so vague that they need to get legal advice then they obviously need reviewing. (This is something the SP have been calling for ironically)

jank

20Cent wrote: »

2 weeks ago 1% of the countries national income was paid out to unsecured unguaranteed bondholders in the most insolvent bank in the world which is also currently under criminal investigation and there wasn't a peep about it in the press
http://namawinelake.wordpress.com/2012/06/24/insolvent-country-in-imf-bailout-programme-to-pay-1-of-its-national-income-this-week-to-unsecured-unguaranteed-bondholders-in-worlds-most-bust-bank/

Last week a man found guilty of contempt of court and who owes the taxpayers 2.8billion walks free.

Letters are sent to thousands of homeowners demanding the household charge of 100 euro.

Then this week a "scandal" emerges which even the Oireachtas doesn't know if its a scandal or not. They are seeking legal advice.

Wake up and smell the coffee folks.

If the expenses rules are so vague that they need to get legal advice then they obviously need reviewing. (This is something the SP have been calling for ironically)

So in your view it is acceptable on one hand to call for a review on Oireachtas expenses while also fleecing the system?

20Cent

jank wrote: »

So in your view it is acceptable on one hand to call for a review on Oireachtas expenses while also fleecing the system?

The old double bind I see.

If the rules are so vague that even the Oireachtas doesn't know what can be claimed for then they certainly need review. If Daly or Higgins are fleecing the system is up to debate some would say they are providing a valuable service and performing their mandate.

Good loser

20Cent wrote: »

2 weeks ago 1% of the countries national income was paid out to unsecured unguaranteed bondholders in the most insolvent bank in the world which is also currently under criminal investigation and there wasn't a peep about it in the press
http://namawinelake.wordpress.com/2012/06/24/insolvent-country-in-imf-bailout-programme-to-pay-1-of-its-national-income-this-week-to-unsecured-unguaranteed-bondholders-in-worlds-most-bust-bank/

Last week a man found guilty of contempt of court and who owes the taxpayers 2.8billion walks free.

Letters are sent to thousands of homeowners demanding the household charge of 100 euro.

Then this week a "scandal" emerges which even the Oireachtas doesn't know if its a scandal or not. They are seeking legal advice.

Wake up and smell the coffee folks.

If the expenses rules are so vague that they need to get legal advice then they obviously need reviewing. (This is something the SP have been calling for ironically)

There is nothing vague about the rule. Didn't RBB enquire and he was told it was impermissable.

Typical public service evasion of responsibility - pass the problem (parcel) onto someone else - as usual to well paid lawyers.

SocSocPol

Good to see these chancers shown up for what they are, they protest against everything at our expense!
They are worse than FF ever were.

Happyman42

Sully wrote: »

They claim expenses, when they don't have to. If they were against austerity, they would live like those who are facing it the hardest. But they don't.

So if they support Abortion, they have to have abortions?
How ridiculous is that comment? :rolleyes:

Just because its available - doesn't mean you should use it. Especially if its partly causing more hardship to the people they represent, and its rubbing their nose in it.

Those fighting against austerity are absolutely creaming it.

More stuff and nonsense. These expenses have been adequately explained.
Those in Labour state they are for the 'working man' and pay lip service to fighting cuts against the poor. Ever see how some of them live? Catch yourself on, you have been enlisted by Independent Media for the FG/Lab smokescreen.

20Cent

Good loser wrote: »

There is nothing vague about the rule. Didn't RBB enquire and he was told it was impermissable.

Typical public service evasion of responsibility - pass the (parcel) onto someone else - as usual to well paid lawyers.

The first part is clear enough expenses traveling to and from the Dail, but then there is the last part which is added. What travel are TDs obliged to incur for the performance of their duties? Pretty vague really could cover a lot of things. If the rules were clear they wouldn't have to refer this to their legal department. I'm sure there are lots of real scandals there waiting to be revealed but our media has just become a conduit for press releases and opinion pieces.


the amount payable to a member of Dáil Éireann as part of the parliamentary standard allowance for the relevant period in respect of travelling facilities for distances, from the member’s normal place of residence in respect of the distance referred to in that column, to and from Leinster House, overnight expenses and travel expenses which the member is obliged to incur in the performance of his or her duties as a member of Dáil Éireann.

Laminations

20Cent wrote: »

If the expenses rules are so vague that they need to get legal advice then they obviously need reviewing. (This is something the SP have been calling for ironically)

Yeah we had similar calls for reform of the system from Doherty after he got away with misusing expenses. So the system needs to be bulked up to protect it from abuse.. says the people abusing it!!

Next we'll have paedophiles calling for stronger child protection laws.

Laminations

Man shamed in media for spending child allowance in booze. In his defence he says there are no clear rules on how you should spend it (clue's in the name - like Travel and Accommodation Allowance) and he broke no laws. to deflect from his behaviour he proclaims 'the system should be reformed'

Happyman42

Laminations wrote: »

Yeah we had similar calls for reform of the system from Doherty after he got away with misusing expenses. So the system needs to be bulked up to protect it from abuse.. says the people abusing it!!

Next we'll have paedophiles calling for stronger child protection laws.

Hysteria won't help here.
Doherty alluded to the confusion caused by the 'system'. Perfectly valid then to call for a clearer system and for vouched expenses. Who is resisting that call again????

Chucky the tree

lol, using an abortion example as comparison. The desperation to somehow make this acceptable is unbelievable.

Laminations

Happyman42 wrote: »

Hysteria won't help here.
Who is resisting that call again????

Who? Source?

Happyman42

Laminations wrote: »

Who? Source?

Who is empowered to introduce 'vouched expenses' and who is resisting doing that?

daltonmd

Well to me it's a bit rich (pardon the pun) for these TD's to claim expenses that actively encourage people to break the law.

Claire Daly stated that she lives on the average wage and the rest of the salary goes back into the party (as have others).

Why not use this portion to fight "austerity"? Why not take the expenses from their own pay instead of enriching the party further?

Why cost the taxpayer more that is really necassary to fight "Austerity"?

Laminations

Happyman42 wrote: »

Who is empowered to introduce 'vouched expenses' and who is resisting doing that?

That is not a source. Which member of government has come out and said they resist reform to expenses? Just because they haven't jumped at the drop of Pearce Doherty's hat doesn't mean they are 'resisting' a change he called for only last week, when he was caught misusing expenses himself.

20Cent

Laminations wrote: »

That is not a source. Which member of government has come out and said they resist reform to expenses? Just because they haven't jumped at the drop of Pearce Doherty's hat doesn't mean they are 'resisting' a change he called for only last week, when he was caught misusing expenses himself.

He wasn't caught misusing expenses the Oireachtas have confirmed that he didn't breach any regulations.

20Cent

Sinn Fein Ard Fheis motion passed

http://www.sinnfein.ie/political-reform-motions

181. This Ard Fheis recognises that the current system of expense reimbursement within the Oireachtas is excessive and is not appropriate or sufficiently regulated. This Ard Fheis believes that that there has been abuse of this system. Furthermore the current government is introducing extensive cuts in the quality of life for the average person in Ireland, but it has failed to properly bring an end to the high salaries and “expense” bonus for Ministers, TDs and Senators.

Therefore, this Ard Fheis believes:

That Ministers, TDs’ and Senators’ expenses should be capped and that expenses should only be used for reasonable and necessary expenses, the definition of which should be determined by an independent monitoring body.
That reasonable expense reimbursement should require solid documentation.

Happyman42

Laminations wrote: »

That is not a source. Which member of government has come out and said they resist reform to expenses?

Have they done it yet? You have said that you want that system, why not be critical of those that have sat on it? Your agenda is as transparent as a newly cleaned window.

galway2007

20Cent wrote: »

He wasn't caught misusing expenses the Oireachtas have confirmed that he didn't breach any regulations.

They are all at it be it going to a funeral or some event
Do you think that any of them 166 TD every pulls up at a petrol station and pay for it out of their own pocket?
Quinn did 5000k and can’t remember where he went
They should have to show where they went and why before they get a penny
Every other worker in this state has to pay to go to work but those Td's knew where the Dail was before they went for election.
It is a complete joke and I would go as far as saying that the expenses gravy train that those Td'S are on allows them to bank their wages

20Cent

galway2007 wrote: »

They are all at it be it going to a funeral or some event
Do you think that any of them 166 TD every pulls up at a petrol station and pay for it out of their own pocket?
Quinn did 5000k and can’t remember where he went
They should have to show where they went and why before they get a penny
Every other worker in this state has to pay to go to work but those Td's knew where the Dail was before they went for election.
It is a complete joke and I would go as far as saying that the expenses gravy train that those Td'S are on allows them to bank their wages

Exactly. The reforms Sinn Fein have been calling for should be introduced.

Laminations

20Cent wrote: »

He wasn't caught misusing expenses the Oireachtas have confirmed that he didn't breach any regulations.

They are not synonymous. You can misuse childrens allowance and not break any regulations. You can misuse the bike to work scheme allowance and not break any regulations.

So he misused the expenses but did not break any regulations.

As for complaining about the clarity of the regulations, after the fact, there are a number of ways you can behave in response to imprecise instruction. RBB asked for a clarification, that would be a start.

If you have ever bought a guitar, you'll know that they tell you to 'help yourself to plectrums'

Now you can respond:
Thanks but I'm okay. (you have some of your own).
Thanks (and take a few)
Thanks (and take a handful)
Thanks (and fill your pockets)

When caught filling your pockets, you can try and blame the fella behind the counter for not being exact in his language but when it comes down to it, you purposely interpreted his instruction in the most self-serving way possible. After doing that calling for better instruction rings a bit hollow.

Not that I disagree with the idea that regulations should be clearer and tighter (with consequences for those who breach them), I just think it hypocritical for those taking advantage of lax regulations to then call for their improvement.

It's like the burglar telling you that you need better locks, he may be right but that's beside the point

Laminations

20Cent wrote: »

Therefore, this Ard Fheis believes:

That Ministers, TDs’ and Senators’ expenses should be capped and that expenses should only be used for reasonable and necessary expenses, the definition of which should be determined by an independent monitoring body.
That reasonable expense reimbursement should require solid documentation.

So do you believe that this use of TAA is reasonable and necessary?

jank

20Cent wrote: »

The old double bind I see.

If the rules are so vague that even the Oireachtas doesn't know what can be claimed for then they certainly need review. If Daly or Higgins are fleecing the system is up to debate some would say they are providing a valuable service and performing their mandate.

There is no debate about it. Just like Sinn Fein stealing ink cartridges. I suppose that was permissible because they had a mandate? If being bused around the country to organise opposition against the household charge is deemed OK for claiming expenses then everything a TD does can be claimed back. Golf memberships for e.g.

Laminations

Happyman42 wrote: »

Have they done it yet? You have said that you want that system, why not be critical of those that have sat on it? Your agenda is as transparent as a newly cleaned window.

I am critical. I contribute to threads on any politician taking the mick with expenses or otherwise engaged in conduct unbecoming of a public representative and I've criticised government and the system many times. Doing so in a thread about a specific case I would see as deflection and an attempt at thread derailment.

Imagine if every thread about the conduct of Sean Fitzpatrick was hijacked by someone constantly deflecting responsibility for his actions to the regulator. 'Ah but the banking system needs better regulation and the government is responsible for that'. Yes true but it doesn't absolve Fitzpatrick of his behaviour under those lax regulations. It is an overarching (but irrelevant to the thread) issue.

20Cent

Laminations wrote: »

They are not synonymous. You can misuse childrens allowance and not break any regulations. You can misuse the bike to work scheme allowance and not break any regulations.

So he misused the expenses but did not break any regulations.

As for complaining about the clarity of the regulations, after the fact, there are a number of ways you can behave in response to imprecise instruction. RBB asked for a clarification, that would be a start.

If you have ever bought a guitar, you'll know that they tell you to 'help yourself to plectrums'

Now you can respond:
Thanks but I'm okay. (you have some of your own).
Thanks (and take a few)
Thanks (and take a handful)
Thanks (and fill your pockets)

When caught filling your pockets, you can try and blame the fella behind the counter for not being exact in his language but when it comes down to it, you purposely interpreted his instruction in the most self-serving way possible. After doing that calling for better instruction rings a bit hollow.

Not that I disagree with the idea that regulations should be clearer and tighter (with consequences for those who breach them), I just think it hypocritical for those taking advantage of lax regulations to then call for their improvement.

It's like the burglar telling you that you need better locks, he may be right but that's beside the point

How can one misuse their expenses when they complied with all the regulations surrounding them?
The problem is with the rules and how they are applied. If they had introduced the regulations Sinn Fein wanted introduced this wouldn't have happened or there would be sanctions available to take action against this.

Laminations

20Cent wrote: »

Exactly. The reforms Sinn Fein have been calling for should be introduced.

Yes, a lot of them should be.

You do understand that calling for reform does not excuse ones behaviour while waiting for that reform?

20Cent

jank wrote: »

There is no debate about it. Just like Sinn Fein stealing ink cartridges. I suppose that was permissible because they had a mandate? If being bused around the country to organise opposition against the household charge is deemed OK for claiming expenses then everything a TD does can be claimed back. Golf memberships for e.g.

We'll have to wait to see what the legal advice the Oireachtas get back to see. Seems like a crazy situation anyway should be regulated as Sinn Fein and the SP have been calling for.
This witch hunt might backfire yet!

Laminations

20Cent wrote: »

How can one misuse their expenses when they complied with all the regulations surrounding them?
The problem is with the rules and how they are applied. If they had introduced the regulations Sinn Fein wanted introduced this wouldn't have happened or there would be sanctions available to take action against this.

So spending childrens allowance on beer is not misusing that allowance, because it breaks no regulation?

20Cent

Laminations wrote: »

Yes, a lot of them should be.

You do understand that calling for reform does not excuse ones behaviour while waiting for that reform?

They probably think that those expenses were reasonable and necessary. Personally I don't but if they are the rules then so be it. I hear that Joe Higgins spent 900 euros approx and has offered to pay it back if it is found to have been misspent. Clare Daly said similar on Vincent Browne last night. They came out said what happened were open about the whole thing, much more honesty that you get with any other party.

Laminations

20cent, What you are saying is that tight new regulations are necessary to maintain high standards in public office because politicians need to be told exactly how to behave as they don't have their own moral compass.

I'd agree. That there are enough of them that behave in a self-serving, underhand manner that they all need to be tightly regulated.

What I see these expenses stories as is evidence that socialist politicians (SF and ULA) need to be told exactly how to behave. It highlights that they are just like other politicians and disarms them of some moral highground, common-man, equal and fairness personified argument that they peddle. They take advantage when they can and they need regulation as much as anyone.

You applaud them for calling for reform but don't recognise that they need the reform to curtail their behaviour re expenses too.