Lab growled and nipped for 1st time

phili01

barbiegirl wrote: »

You are choosing to ignore all advise but those that reflect your own opinion and put blame no where but on the dog. The dog did no damage, it issued a restrained warning and you have punished it and taught it that you will take it's food. Kids and dog food don't mix end of. It's not a new concept just one you chose to ignore.

I'm not choosing to ignore it,but like I said, he was taught from a pup to tolerate this. And I make no apologies for reprimanding a dog for nipping a child nomatter what the reason was.

Cherry Blossom

SingItOut wrote: »

Yes the child shouldn't have put her hands in the bowl, but that is no excuse for the dogs behaviour to be acceptable or tolerated. Who's to say it won't happen if somebody is simply walking past the bowl? The dog needs to know what he's done is not acceptable, with training and supervision that is possible. There's should be no difference whether it was a child or adult that put their hands in the bowl, I adore animals, obviously, but they need to understand what they can/can't do, mine certainly do.

The dog has just been punished for having its food taken from it, what training concept is this based on . Kids put their hands in your food and multiple bad things happen, okay dog - that's how it is, that's your 'training' advise??

It's very likely that it will happen again now it's been taught that it has no shortage of reasons to get cranky about it.

Dogs in my house have been desensitised to kids putting their hands in their bowl, I can tell you this was not done by letting them do whatever they want and play with the dogs food.

Get In There

phili01 wrote: »

A little bit rude???? He tolerated this for years so had no reason to discipline my daughter.

What do you want us to say? You're gonna keep refusing to heed good advice cos you can't concede you failed to teach your kid to leave the dog be when it's feeding.

The incident was a result of poor parenting or poor training of the dog. No other way of looking at it. So the buck stops with you.

Cherry Blossom

phili01 wrote: »

I'm not choosing to ignore it,but like I said, he was taught from a pup to tolerate this. And I make no apologies for reprimanding a dog for nipping a child nomatter what the reason was.

No it hasn't been taught from a pup to tolerate it, it's been forced to repress it's emotions about it. That's why you have started a thread about a dog nipping a 3 year old that was messing with it's food.

phili01

OK,now my parenting is in question?????Really????
As for forcing him to 'repress his emotions',come on. I'm sure dogs don't like to sit when told either so should they growl and nip then???
Anyway,tomorrow will begin as normal,slate clean. Kids will be told to not feed him his food,but I don't like the sound of making sure noone is near him when hes eating,he should be able to tolerate people near him.
Thanks for the advice.

andreac

You really are skating on thin ice here by the sounds of it. You have gotten a lot of very good advice from very experienced dog owners here so i would highly advise you to heed it.
Dogs can only communicate by growling and nipping if they arent happy with something, so does this not tell you something?? Your dog was NOT happy with your child in his bowl taking his food and he told her that by giving a warning.

Also, please dont leave him outside if he always sleeps inside. He will have absolutely no clue as to why you are leaving him outside. Dogs live in the moment, he will not connect the incident earlier to having to sleep outside so that would be very unfair on him to do that.

I suggest you do some reading up on dog behaviour and psycology (sp) and learn exactly how dogs communicate and behave, you might learn a lot.

tk123

There are some really excellent posts on here about raising kids and dogs together and the key is not having the dog in a position where it feels the need to discipline the child by giving them nips like they would do with pups. Regardless of him tolerating it for the last 3 years he doesn't want the kids sticking their hands in his bowl. Possibly having the food interfered with is what's causing him to guard it? If somebody was messing with my dinner it'd take a lot less time than 3 years before they had a fork stabbed in their hand - more like 3 mins!!

IMO you need to get the kids to back off and let him eat his meals and work on the guarding yourself. My GR is almost 3 (his birthday is next week lol) and a few months ago he started guarding new treats he was getting by growling - I started dropping treats beside him and walking away.. after a few days he'd look up when I came to him so I gave him loads of praise and walked away..a few days of that and I petted him when I praised him...a few days later I asked for his paw, praised and gave him the treat. I took it very slowly and went at his pace and it solved the problem - NB I was confident this was something I could handle myself as I've learnt to read him quite well. At no time did I touch the treat/bone - I waited until he trusted me enough to 'swap' it with me for a different treat.

Cherry Blossom

phili01 wrote: »

As for forcing him to 'repress his emotions',come on. I'm sure dogs don't like to sit when told either so should they growl and nip then???

My dogs love to sit when they are told, Sit = praise, treats, physical contact so why would they not like doing it?

IvySlayer

antocann wrote: »

all im gona say is , dont go near a dog and its food , even if she was only putting it in the dish , he may have taught she was taking his food

Food aggression is one thing I will never, ever, ever, ever tolerate in any dog I own. Training to give up food/possessions when is something I always encourage for the dogs safety and peoples.

I hate the ahhh just being a dog argument.

The Sweeper

The dog is three years old. This means he has eaten at least one meal a day, 364 days a year, for three years. That's at least 1,092 meals.

Have you eaten your last 1,092 meals in perfect temper at all times without ever snapping at or losing it with a family member? Have you been consistently cheery and non-reactive to all stimulus around you for the last 1,092 dinners in a row?

Set your dog up to succeed. Show him that you won't let the kids near him when he eats. Trust me, your dog IS intelligent enough to note when you stop someone approaching him while he's eating his dinner. He looks to you for guidance - if he sees you intervene he will feel less pressure to do something about it himself.

If it was particularly out of character for him, take him to the vet. He may be out of sorts - perhaps he has pain, a muscle strain, a stomach ache, some other underlying medical condition that meant he wasn't in quite as good a mood as usual.

Also, your daughter has grown over the last three years and her behaviour will have changed dramatically throughout the dog's life. All he knows is that she does new and bizarre stuff ALL THE TIME because she's a small child. She's the one who moves the goalposts, not the dog.

Again, set your dog up to succeed. Learn to read his body language before he resorts to growling or a snap. Does his body stiffen when someone approaches his food bowl? Does his tail stop wagging? Does he eat with his head down and roll his eyes up to see who's coming? Does he crouch low over the bowl? Does he stop eating mid-bite if you get close to him? Does he freeze or close his mouth? Does he move his body over the bowl as opposed to stepping away from it? All of those gestures are the dog clearly communicating 'this is mine, go away'. If you don't know to look for them, you won't see them. For all you know, your dog has been telling your kids to go away for over 1,000 meals and they've ignored him until he upped the volume.

It's a stretch to think that a dog who's snapped once in over 1,000 dinners when someone tried to take something he already had is inadvertently going to progress to savaging the children when they have something he wants.

Learn dog body language and put your dog in a position where he can't fail.

tazwaz

hi op, i'm sorry to hear your dog snapped at your child but i'm also sorry to hear that your dog was excluded from your family for the rest of the day.
i havent got kids but i do have a neighbours little girl (2) that comes to my house nearly every day to give my little dog a treat. she comes in, gives him a treat, and her mam makes her leave him alone for the few minutes he's eating it and then she gets to rub him. there was one time when she ran after him trying to rub him while he was eating the carrot and her mam put her on the bold step to make her understand that she cant annoy a dog when the dog has food.

cocker5

OP...

You have been given excellent advice her from 99% of the posters. and i would say to you to heed it...

From the time my cocker was 8 weeks old we too moved his bowl... scopped up some nuts and hand fed him etc as like you we wanted him not to be "hand shy" or food agressive etc... BUT it was only us (my hubby and I) who went near his food... I would NEVER allow my neices / nephews to do the same... my cocker is very gentle, he is such a softie and i have never heard him growl or show any signs of agression BUT I would never allow a child to go near his food etc.

Nobody is saying your child is in the wrong what they are saying is teach your child to leave your dog in peace while eating. I would have no problem with people being near the dog while eating just dont put little fingers in the dogs bowl etc... its not fair on your dog (your testing his patience - maybe he was having a bad day) and not fair on your child putiing him / her in that situation - its a receipe for disaster if you ask me.

from what you've said you dog ahs been the perfect pet for 3 years now... dont give up on him for one small glitch... teach your children to respect him while he is eating and all will be ok.

TooManyDogs

There's a number of factors here. Of course resourse guarding shouldnt be tolerated but honestly it doesn't sound like that's what's going on here. Resourse guarding usually manifests itself in reaction to percieved infractions rather than actual infractions, so you walking past the dog bowl or standing near to a dog eating a treat rather than actively trying to remove the bowl/treat. All my dogs have been trained that I or my husband can take their food bowls off them without any issue but it's very rarely used because there's a reason we were all taught as kids to leave the dog alone while it was eating. Food goes down to an instinctual level with dogs, once they have possesion of food no pack member will ever attempt to take it off them and they will guard it fiercely, when we teach them that we can take their bowl we're asking them to supress this instinct so while they should give up their food bowl when we ask equally we shouldn't ask unless there is a very good reason for it.

Generally puppies are allowed float from adult to adult eating their food but as the pup gets older the adults become less and less tolerant of this, the same is true of your child. So for 3 years your dog has allowed your daughter to put her food into the bowl, he has now decided she's too old for such baby manners, there will have been more subtle signals over the last few days that you must have missed. This is why I always say never put the child and dog in a position where the dog has to correct the child, because a nip is way way down the warning scale and only came to that because previous warning signals were ignored.

To say that the dog will go onto to randomly bite if your daughter has something in her hand or randomly attack anyone going past the food bowl is over the top completely, this was a reaction to a specific situation and should be treated as such. I'd say if you stopped your daughter sitting beside your dog at dinner time and stopped her putting her hands into the food bowl it will never happen again. My 2 year old helps us feed the dogs by putting the food in to the bowl, putting the bowls on the ground and then calling the dogs in to their dinner in order, but never is she allowed to go near them until they've finished their dinner.

I know dogs are family pets and as such domesticated but they are still a different species and we will never be able to stop all their instinctual behaviours, we have to learn to adapt to them as they learn to adapt to our ways. Dogs come under immense pressure to conform in my opinion, if a cat scratched a child for playing with their dinner there'd be a 'sure it's a cat, what do you expect', same for a rabbit if it nipped a child it'd be 'well don't do that again'. Horses aren't expected not to kick if they get startled by someone behind them, we're all taught never to walk behind a horse and if someone does get a kick we don't then jump to the conclusion that the horse is now going to go on the rampage. I think we need to be a little more species tolerant with dogs.

loveisdivine

Look we dont expect humans to behave all the time. We cant make children, or adults, behave all the time. What makes people think we can make an entirely different species behave perfectly all the time.

I'm really starting to despair for the poor dogs in this country. The level of expectation people seem to have is insane.
Surely people realise that if a dog is fed up it cant actually turn around and say that to us, so it has to show it the only way it can.

OP, your dog is not going to turn into a savage killer just becuase he got grumpy with his food being played with and told your child to go away. The dog was behaving naturally. You are interpreting this behaviour as as something more than it is.

I'm starting to have the opinion that most* people with babies or young children just shouldnt have dogs period. Not because there is any threat to the child, but because the parents become incapable of thinking rationally about the dogs behaviour. The dog will end up being pts or rehomed purely because of the owners hysteria. If you'er so worried about your kids, dont get a dog, let it go to a home where it will be understood.

* Note I used the word most, not all.

cocker5

I'm starting to have the opinion that most* people with babies or young children just shouldnt have dogs period. Not because there is any threat to the child, but because the parents become incapable of thinking rationally about the dogs behaviour. The dog will end up being pts or rehomed purely because of the owners hysteria. If you'er so worried about your kids, dont get a dog, let it go to a home where it will be understood

Have to say completely agree with this point.

I had dogs when i was a child and yes on occasion they did bite me, and i was the one who got in trouble wth my parents not the dogs... this was mostly due to the fact that i have been told 100's of times to leave the dogs alone by my parents and by the fact that the dogs would give me "go away signals" i still presisted in cuddling them... hence i got bitten not badly or anything just a nip to say "piss off". EVERY time my paresnt would say i told you to leave him alone etc... it took me years and a couple of nips and i learned (yes I am slow learner )

While i am not condoning dogs biting etc but in my opinion it can happen and does happen through no fault of the animal... parents today are all hyped up etc... they cannot differenceiate between a nip and aggression :eek:

Whispered

Well I think the OP got loads of good advice and I bet the dog is back in the house now and both baby and dog are acting like nothing happened at all. I'm sure they both will move on a lot quicker than the OP (as the parent, owner and "protector" will).

How are things between them today OP?

Outkast_IRE

just as an interesting side note, isnt this behaviour similar to what a dog would do to its misbehaving pup , give it a little nip but not bite down hard or anything.
It just seems to me its a technique dogs use to put manners on their pups. I dont really see it as anything but a natural response from the dog

falabo

never EVER let a child go near a dog while they're eating. even adults should stay away.

what's the point anyway ? can the dog not be left alone while eating ??

SingItOut

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

The dog has just been punished for having its food taken from it, what training concept is this based on . Kids put their hands in your food and multiple bad things happen, okay dog - that's how it is, that's your 'training' advise??

The dog was punished for growling/nipping, not for having his food taken away. Yes actually that is my advice. Just because you don't agree with it doesn't make me wrong. :rolleyes:

Whispered

SingItOut wrote: »

The dog was punished for growling/nipping, not for having his food taken away. Yes actually that is my advice. Just because you don't agree with it doesn't make me wrong. :rolleyes:

A dog who is punished for guarding will likely escalate its behaviour. I'm not sure this was guarding, but I don't think punishing the dog will do anything but cement in the dogs head that baby near food = something to be feared/not tolerated.

Francie Barrett

Some of the advice here is shocking, especially coming from the moderators.

It is simply not acceptable for an animal to nip a member of your family. If you do not catch this kind of behaviour in the bud, it can actually lead to a more aggressive animal who will think that his behaviour is acceptable. I think the OP did the correct thing in taking away the food bowl and sending the dog outside. Dogs are pack animals, and if you allow it to display dominance over a member of your family, you're simply asking for trouble.

Francie Barrett

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

OP, you are letting your three year old seriously overstep the mark with your dog and it seems you are not reprimanding the child for it. It your job as a parent to discipline your kids, not the dogs. It's also your job as a dog owner to make sure your dog doesn't feel threatened by your kids, you are leaving the dog with no other choice than to do your job for you. Honestly . . . I am completely gob-smacked with this one.

I am gobsmacked that a moderator can give this kind of advice. Obviously the child should not put their hand in the dogs bowl, but these things can happen and when they do, the dog must be disciplined.

tk123

Francie Barrett wrote: »

. Dogs are pack animals, and if you allow it to display dominance over a member of your family, you're simply asking for trouble.

This is exactly why most of us are suggesting the OP stop the child bothering the dog when he's eating so he won't feel the need to discipline the child.

SingItOut

Whispered wrote: »

A dog who is punished for guarding will likely escalate its behaviour. I'm not sure this was guarding, but I don't think punishing the dog will do anything but cement in the dogs head that baby near food = something to be feared/not tolerated.

I understand this can happen with most dogs, it didn't escalate with mine. I think dogs are smart enough to know what they can and can't get away with you know? I don't think it was guarding either to be honest, if he was there would've been alot more growling or showing teeth as a warning before hand

Outkast_IRE

Francie Barrett wrote: »

Some of the advice here is shocking, especially coming from the moderators.

It is simply not acceptable for an animal to nip a member of your family. If you do not catch this kind of behaviour in the bud, it can actually lead to a more aggressive animal who will think that his behaviour is acceptable. I think the OP did the correct thing in taking away the food bowl and sending the dog outside. Dogs are pack animals, and if you allow it to display dominance over a member of your family, you're simply asking for trouble.

Your response is the shocking one , its an animal , if you annoy an animal like a dog it could potentially kill you. Its response of giving the child a light nip on the fingers and a growl is the only way it can leave it know to back off. The child should never of been left do this with the dog it was madness.

And since i believe almost everybody on this forum who owns dogs or works with dogs says to leave them alone when feeding, i think its some of the soundest advice ever.

My own dog i could take bits of her food away and annoy her while eating if i wanted and she wouldnt growl, but would she like it definetly not, i bet if i did it every day to annoy the dog it would eventually force a reaction.

People arent saying its alright for a dog to nip a child , they are saying its not ok for a child to be sticking her hand in the dogs food bowl etc when hes eating. Acceptable behaviour works 2 ways when you own an animal if you ever truely believe you can control every instinct a dog has then your only fooling yourself.

Francie Barrett

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

Your response is the shocking one , its an animal , if you annoy an animal like a dog it could potentially kill you. Its response of giving the child a light nip on the fingers and a growl is the only way it can leave it know to back off. The child should never of been left do this with the dog it was madness.

And since i believe almost everybody on this forum who owns dogs or works with dogs says to leave them alone when feeding, i think its some of the soundest advice ever.

My own dog i could take bits of her food away and annoy her while eating if i wanted and she wouldnt growl, but would she like it definetly not, i bet if i did it every day to annoy the dog it would eventually force a reaction.

People arent saying its alright for a dog to nip a child , they are saying its not ok for a child to be sticking her hand in the dogs food bowl etc when hes eating. Acceptable behaviour works 2 ways when you own an animal if you ever truely believe you can control every instinct a dog has then your only fooling yourself.

No one is saying the child should be putting their hand into the dogs bowl. But if you've got young children, you'll know that they cannot be watched every second of the day and that they will do stupid things like poke a dogs eye or stick their hands in a dogs bowl. An adult could just as easily annoy a dog by accident if they trod on a tail or a paw. There is nothing shocking about sending the dog outside and withdrawing all attention and affection for an hour if it behaves incorrectly. The dog will be intelligent enough to connect nipping the child with being sent outside, and will be less likely to do so in the future.

IvySlayer

Dogs must always hand food over on command, just as they always have to get off the couch when a human tells them to. Don't see any problem with that and none of all the dogs I've owned has ever had a problem with it.

TooManyDogs

Francie Barrett wrote: »

But if you've got young children, you'll know that they cannot be watched every second of the day and that they will do stupid things like poke a dogs eye or stick their hands in a dogs bowl.

I have got a young child and she's never unsupervised with the dogs, I don't care what anyone says, at the end of the day as much as we love our dogs they cannot be 100% trusted with small children because they are animals. People don't expect small children to behave properly 100% of the time because it's completely unrealistic but yet they expect the dog to behave properly 100% of the time while having their eye poked or their dinner messed with, it's pure foolishness. Don't tell me it can't be done because I'm currently doing it.

IvySlayer wrote: »

Dogs must always hand food over on command, just as they always have to get off the couch when a human tells them to. Don't see any problem with that and none of all the dogs I've owned has ever had a problem with it.

There's absolutely no problem with having a command for a dog to allow a human take their bowl, it's an essential command like sit and stay but the key difference is that there wasn't a command issued here, there was a child allowed to sit beside a dog while eating and continuely pester it. Like someone else pointed out if I had someone ask me polietly to hand over my dinner plate I would do it but be a bit miffed where as if anyone, husband or child included, sat beside me every single day and played with my food I'd be really hacked off and someone could end up with a fork in the back of their hand

ppink

Francie Barrett wrote: »

No one is saying the child should be putting their hand into the dogs bowl. But if you've got young children, you'll know that they cannot be watched every second of the day and that they will do stupid things like poke a dogs eye or stick their hands in a dogs bowl. An adult could just as easily annoy a dog by accident if they trod on a tail or a paw. There is nothing shocking about sending the dog outside and withdrawing all attention and affection for an hour if it behaves incorrectly. The dog will be intelligent enough to connect nipping the child with being sent outside, and will be less likely to do so in the future.

so where is the line drawn then? exactly how much do we expect dogs to put up without giving any reaction?

Children should always be monitored around animals..........except stuffed ones. not monitoring them is just asking for trouble.

star-pants

Francie Barrett wrote: »

But if you've got young children, you'll know that they cannot be watched every second of the day and that they will do stupid things like poke a dogs eye or stick their hands in a dogs bowl.

That is exactly one of the reasons why children should not be left unsupervised around animals.
A dog cannot be always 100% trusted, they just can't they're animals.
Children also cannot be trusted, they're children. And they're less likely to read warning signs.

Leaving a child unsupervised around a dog (no matter how great the dog is) is giving potential for trouble and it's not worth the risk.

As a side note - just because someone's a moderator doesn't mean they're not allowed give their advice/experience. They can post as posters too you know.