Lab growled and nipped for 1st time

gozunda

phili01 wrote: »

I knew I was going to get replies about not letting anyone near his food. But this dog has always had kids beside him while eating for the past 3 years and never had a problem. And the kids have always taken food out of his bowl while hes eating and he takes it from their hands.

phili01

Sorry to hear of your experience

The test of whether a dog will allow a human to put their hand near or in its food is one of the basic tests used determining the suitability of a dog for rehoming by many reputable animal charities.

From pups I have always trained all my dogs that this is absolutely required to accept a human hand in their feed bowl.
I have GS and JRTs who were trained in this behaviour - no exceptions allowed.
However some dogs will attempt to get possevive about food if they can get away with it.

Sometimes retraining can work - a dummy hand (a stuffed glove on brush handle) used to touch and move full bowl of food when animal is eating can help if dog continues to be aggressive over food. But maybe think of your other options

There appears to be a school of thought that suggests that animals can do no wrong and that it must always be the human who is at fault. I do not suscribe to this school of behavioural science. Imo domestic animals live with us and not the other way around.

The Sweeper

Animals can do wrong. Plenty of it. Just like people. The question is not whether or not the animal is blameless. The question is whether there is any point placing blame squarely at the feet of the animal.

Who has the superior intellect? Who has the higher reasoning skills? Who has the better problem solving ability? And then who has the great big teeth? So in man versus dog, to whom shall we hand the responsibility of controlling the environment? We place unrealistic expectations upon our dogs and then, when they let us down in a minor fashion, just once, we're so betrayed by them we punish them extensively for it, long after the sleight is over and done.

The whole point is animals CAN do wrong. It doesn't matter how well trained your dog is, nobody can guarantee 100% absolutely that, given a certain set of circumstances, their dog won't ever snap.

So what part of that last sentence can you control? Can you control the 100% guarantee? Only by getting rid of the dog. What you CAN control, with minimal effort, is the 'certain set of circumstances'.

My dog is relaxed around his food. He always has been. I have six cats, and I can sit all seven animals around me in a circle and hand feed treats. (My dog is 30kgs of bull breed mongrel.)

One day, about six months ago, my dog was very hungry. I gave him a raw beef cheek - a particularly high value item. He took it to his bed and then walked away to find something else or follow me - not sure what. At that point one of my cats, who was apparently also hungry and curious, went onto the dog's bed and made for the beef cheek. In the days prior to this, my dog had been spending a lot of time around a friend's dog, who's a 45kg 7 year old bitch who IS a resource guarder and gave my dog what for a few times over a ball, a rope, so on.

The combination of circumstances - hungry, high value item, a few days of backlash from another resource guarding dog, cat on HIS bed trying to get said item - meant my dog stripped his teeth and went to snap at the cat. It happened extremely quickly but I saw it and between the snarl and the snap I let a roar at the dog (too far away to intervene in any other way). The cat escaped completely unscathed (and totally oblivious) and I inadvertently delivered a stern correction to my dog at precisely the moment of bad behaviour. I don't normally roar at my dog as though he's owned by tinkers, and certainly not as a standard training interaction, but the effect meant I still have a cat and he realised his behaviour was not on.

Since then, I never feed the dog a high value item when the cats are around. In the evenings, they get their supper first, in a separate room, and when they're fed and down for the night the dog gets his dinner. He now even sits on his mat and waits patiently when he watches me preparing the cat food because he knows his meal is coming. He also doesn't spend extended amounts of time with the larger resource guarding dog any more, because she has nothing good to teach him.

Because of how I try to control circumstances, I can also trust my dog. When I go to work every day he sits at home with my six cats, chilling with the radio on. I don't relegate him to the yard and allow them indoors - they're all in here. They have places to get away from him if they wish. I never leave the house with a high value item out for grabs in the open.

The day my dog went for my cat, I was completely gutted. I felt sick to my stomach. I wondered if it would escalate. I wondered if I was ultimately going to return home one day to carnage. But then I started to control the environment and we haven't had a problem since.

Graces7

So much is knowing your own animals. And being ready to change your view as they develop. Knowing also what can be changed and what cannot be altered.

Abused, untrained 12 year old collie here is still learning. Dropping food on command is a new skill for her, to avoid conflict with wee dog.

Knowing she hates cats is essential....

Keeping animals and kids safe is priority and teaching this child respect without letting her become scared of the dog is vital now and will happen when you show no fear.

When I first had collie, I was scared of her face when she snarled. Now i understand and can stop the growling easily and replace it with a smiling face and paw upheld to me.

We learn and change; the dogs learn and change.

loveisdivine

gozunda wrote: »

Imo domestic animals live with us and not the other way around.

Yeah but who brought these animals inside? Dogs dont sit at our front doors saying "Oh please let me come in and live with you, I'll be forever good I promise" Its us that go and find them and bring them home. So whilst you clearly think you're doing the dog some sort of favour, the dog doesnt really think that. Its just an animal, stop expecting to act like a human, or even understand us all the time.

seamus

I would take this incident as an exceptionally good sign that your dog considers your child to be very close family and won't suddenly go on the rampage and injure her. Most dogs over 10kg could remove a 3-year-old's finger before you could even react.
As others have said your issue is that the dog should never feel like it has to correct the child, because this will result in an escalation of the severity of the corrections as the child gets older. The child must be corrected by you so the dog does not feel like it has to be in control.

Dominance theory doesn't come into play in regards to food because as quite rightly pointed out by a number of other posters, even in dog packs, a dog will not tolerate a dominant dog trying to take its food.
So this is not a case that your dog will think it is "dominant" over your child, and needs to be taught otherwise. If anything my concern would be that you've now demonstrated to the dog that when your daughter goes near the bowl, the dog gets punished and has its food taken away. So it may escalate its behaviour and start giving warning signals when your daughter is even near it when eating.

gozunda

loveisdivine wrote: »

gozunda wrote: »

Imo domestic animals live with us and not the other way around.

Yeah but who brought these animals inside? Dogs dont sit at our front doors saying "Oh please let me come in and live with you, I'll be forever good I promise" Its us that go and find them and bring them home. So whilst you clearly think you're doing the dog some sort of favour, the dog doesnt really think that. Its just an animal, stop expecting to act like a human, or even understand us all the time.

You must be mixing me up with someone else. I Never said anything about expecting a dog to act like human. These are domestic animals not wolves or wild dogs. I don't get this dog thinking deep thoughts tbh. They might not understand when we do doggy talk etc but they CAN be trained to obedience. That's where humans role is essential. Treating a dog like a lodger with their own agenda is a recipe to disaster IMO.

The OP has a legitimate concern.

phili01

Thank you all for your comments. Just wanted to update. Just to put peoples minds at ease,the dog stayed outside which he does most of the time anyway. Yesterday morning he went out for walk as usual and my 3 year old gave him a biscuit as usual. He sat for her fine but snatched it out of her hand.
Anyway,I rang the vet about it and he said I did the right thing removing him when he nipped her and that a dog should be taught to tolerate people at their food so they don't become over protective of it. It should be part of their training when they are pups. I know everyone has different opinions on this but I tend to agree with him.
Today while my 8 year old was eating her lunch he snatched food out of her hand and ran with it to his kennel,something he has also NEVER done. May need to retrain him I think.

ferretone

OP, I assume you know how much time in a veterinary course is spent studying training and animal behaviour? :rolleyes:

Graces7

phili01 wrote: »

Thank you all for your comments. Just wanted to update. Just to put peoples minds at ease,the dog stayed outside which he does most of the time anyway. Yesterday morning he went out for walk as usual and my 3 year old gave him a biscuit as usual. He sat for her fine but snatched it out of her hand.
Anyway,I rang the vet about it and he said I did the right thing removing him when he nipped her and that a dog should be taught to tolerate people at their food so they don't become over protective of it. It should be part of their training when they are pups. I know everyone has different opinions on this but I tend to agree with him.
Today while my 8 year old was eating her lunch he snatched food out of her hand and ran with it to his kennel,something he has also NEVER done. May need to retrain him I think.

Ouch and yes indeed and of course this is a new behaviour trend and needs new action. Well done indeed and hoping that all goes well.

And wise to trust the vet who knows the dog.

Often there is too much theory and too much anthropomorphism in attitudes to dogs.

Oddly we have had the opposite happen with our old collie who now gives food back on command. She has become much more settled and biddable of late.

gozunda

ferretone wrote: »

OP, I assume you know how much time in a veterinary course is spent studying training and animal behaviour? :rolleyes:

And in my experience most animal behaviouists have a 6 month certificate from A.N. Other college if you are lucky. This area is completely unregulated.

tk123

gozunda wrote: »

And in my experience most animal behaviouists have a 6 month certificate from A.N. Other college if you are lucky. This area is completely unregulated.

Are any of the ones you know of members of aptd Ireland? (OP that's where you should be looking for a trainer from)

gozunda

tk123 wrote: »

Are any of the ones you know of members of aptd Ireland? (OP that's where you should be looking for a trainer from)

That association is for Pet Trainers not Animals Behaviourists - they appear to
certify Members based on their own assesment (+Fee) (See HERE) There is no external qualification standard requirement

I would defer to a veterinary professional any day tbh

Cherry Blossom

gozunda wrote: »

That association is for Pet Trainers not Animals Behaviourists - they appear to
certify Members based on their own assesment (+Fee) (See HERE) There is no external qualification standard requirement

I would defer to a veterinary professional any day tbh

I've met a few adpt certified behaviourists and trainers and all have had at the minimum a post-graduate qualification in a relevant science or in animal behaviour and in most cases a doctorate. That's a fairly good indication to me of the level of their standards for acceptance.

gozunda

APTDstands for
Association of Pet Dog Trainers Ireland.To be listed as an Dog Trainer - This is the APTD membership process...no other qualification is required

Professional Membership:
Fee: €60 (initial once-off assessment fee is €150: new Professional Members receive a 50% discount on their first year’s membership fee). Professional members must fill out the complete application form, and return it to the address on the form.
Professional members are required to undergo an assessment before being accepted as a professional member. The assessment is divided into 3 sections:
1. Written Assessment:
Consisting of a number of multiple-choice questions and answers, and essay-style questions. The written assessment tests your knowledge of the science of learning theory, the skills behind running an effective dog training class, and your general knowledge of canine issues. The written assessment must be returned to the APDT Ireland before a specified date.
Your written work will be corrected by the APDT Ireland Assessments team, and based on your answers you will either be called forward for practical assessment, or you will receive notification that you haven’t demonstrated the necessary knowledge and skills on this occasion, but you are invited to reflect, and re-apply again at a later date.
2. Practical Assessment:
Practical assessments will be held at specified venues on a regular basis by APDT Ireland. The candidate will take a class whilst being assessed by the APDT Ireland Assessment team, and will establish whether you have the sufficient practical skills and attitude to become an APDT Ireland Professional Member. The practical assessment lasts for about 1 hour.
3. Oral Assessment:
After the practical assessment, the candidate will be interviewed by the APDT Ireland Assessment Team. This part of the assessment helps you to cover various elements which arose during the class assessment, and gives our Assessment Team the opportunity to clarify elements of your written and practical assessments. The Oral Assessment lasts about 15 mins.

I think I'll stick with referrals from the qualified vet I know and trust....

Cherry Blossom

gozunda wrote: »

APTDstands for
Association of Pet Dog Trainers Ireland.To be listed as an Dog Trainer - This is the APTD membership process...no other qualification is required

I never said it was, just that's it's a pretty good indication of the standard required when so many of those people already posses relevant third level qualifications. Why would such people bother with this when they are already experts in their field if it has no credibility, answer - they wouldn't.

gozunda wrote: »

I think I'll stick with the qualified vet I know and trust....

What qualifications does your vet have in canine behaviour and/or dog training?

gozunda

I would defer to my vet over any individual who has just paid €50 euro - NO Qualification Required.
to be listed as a Dog Trainer :rolleyes:

I am refering to those who have Studied animal behaviour professionally

At least Vets are properly qualified in veterinary science (LINK) and achieve proper accreditation .

Cherry Blossom

gozunda wrote: »

I would defer to my vet over any individual who has just paid €50 euro - NO Qualification Required.
to be listed as a Dog Trainer :rolleyes:

I am refering to those who have Studied animal behaviour professionally

Not too sure what you saying now, are you saying you wouldn't take advise from someone who has a professional qualification or you would?

Because no-one has said anything on this thread about seeking training help from someone who has no qualifications to give it, other than vets whom are instructed in no more information than is necessary for handling animals for purposes of their job, which is medical/surgical and diagnosis. I find it very strange that someone would take advice from the equivalent of a GP (except you don't need a doctorate to be a vet) over a specialist whom has put the same length of time into studying canine behaviour specifically. I wouldn't go to a GP for advice on a child with emotional issues, so why would I go to a vet for advice on a dog with behavioural issues.

ISDW

gozunda wrote: »

I would defer to my vet over any individual who has just paid €50 euro - NO Qualification Required.
to be listed as a Dog Trainer :rolleyes:

I am refering to those who have Studied animal behaviour professionally

At least Vets are properly qualified in veterinary science (LINK) and achieve proper accreditation .

But they have to be assessed, on paper and practically to be accepted, is that not a qualifcation? If you don't demonstrate enough knowledge in the written paper, then you don't get to go any further in the process, so its not a case of just paying money and becoming a member.

Why do vets recommend behaviourists and trainers to their clients, why don't they do the behavioural work themselves? Speaking to my vet this week, she said that the majority of dogs that are pts are because of behaviourial issues. Surely by your reckoning then, vets wouldn't be putting these dogs to sleep, they would be 'curing' them?

gozunda

ISDW wrote: »

But they have to be assessed, on paper and practically to be accepted, is that not a qualifcation? If you don't demonstrate enough knowledge in the written paper, then you don't get to go any further in the process, so its not a case of just paying money and becoming a member.

Why do vets recommend behaviourists and trainers to their clients, why don't they do the behavioural work themselves? Speaking to my vet this week, she said that the majority of dogs that are pts are because of behaviourial issues. Surely by your reckoning then, vets wouldn't be putting these dogs to sleep, they would be 'curing' them?

Having looked at the website this organisation(?) does not provide a nationally recognised qualification. It is a website offering its services for a fee to 'register' to anyone who can pass their standard of assesment. This would be of no value for Professional certification purposes.

I could set up such a website tomorrow. A Vet is always a first point of contact with regard to animal problems. I am happy that my vet offers me the best advice in relation to these matters.

BTW I originaly referred to Animal Behaviouists And not Animal Trainers. According to the website it deals Only with Animal Trainers.
My vet recommends properly accredited behaviourists - I must ask has he ever heard of this lot.

Cherry Blossom

gozunda wrote: »

having looked at the website this organisation(?) does not provide a nationally recognised qualification. It is a website offering its services for a fee to 'register' to anyone who can pass their standard of assesment.

Much like the veterinary Council then?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=79276880&postcount=3

tk123

gozunda wrote: »

BTW I originaly referred to Animal Behaviouists And not Animal Trainers. According to the website it deals Only with Animal Trainers.
My vet recommends properly accredited behaviourists - I must ask has he ever heard of this lot.

You're contradicting yourself now.

gozunda wrote: »

And in my experience most animal behaviouists have a 6 month certificate from A.N. Other college if you are lucky

So your vet refers clients to crap behaviourists?

Can I ask what experience you've actually had with a behaviourist?? There are people here trying to steer the OP in the right direction - they've had positive experiences with behaviourists listed on that site but you seem hell bent on picking holes in it to prove your point?

gozunda

tk123 wrote: »

You're contradicting yourself now.

How so. Please explain.


So your vet refers clients to crap behaviourists?

Nice language - please reread my previous posts for clarification

Can I ask what experience you've actually had with a behaviourist?? There are people here trying to steer the OP in the right direction - they've had positive experiences with behaviourists listed on that site but you seem hell bent on picking holes in it to prove your point?

As you point out 'there are people trying to steer the OP in the right direction" This is 'right' as in your opinion I gather.

The OP I am sure is capable of making their own mind up.

tk123

gozunda wrote: »

tk123 wrote: »

You're contradicting yourself now.

How so. Please explain.


So your vet refers clients to crap behaviourists?

Nice language - please reread my previous posts for clarification

Can I ask what experience you've actually had with a behaviourist?? There are people here trying to steer the OP in the right direction - they've had positive experiences with behaviourists listed on that site but you seem hell bent on picking holes in it to prove your point?

As you point out 'there are people trying to steer the OP in the right direction" This is 'right' as in your opinion I gather.

The OP I am sure is capable of making their own mind up.

So can we take it that you've no experience of behavourists then?
My point was people who have had positive experiences with them are recommending them - unless you've had a bad experience with one I don't understand why you're rubbishing them here and in other threads?

gozunda

tk123 wrote: »

So can we take it that you've no experience of behavourists then?
My point was people who have had positive experiences with them are recommending them - unless you've had a bad experience with one I don't understand why you're rubbishing them here and in other threads?

Thanks tk123

I refered to behaviourists. I believe some other posters then referred to trainers.

So no there are no presumptions to be made from what I have already said. The old saying Caveat Emptor is I believe relevant here. ie the buyer must be aware. Their are properly accredited animal specialists and there are those that are not. I prefer the properly accredited ones.

The Sweeper

phili01 wrote: »

Yesterday morning he went out for walk as usual and my 3 year old gave him a biscuit as usual. He sat for her fine but snatched it out of her hand...

...Today while my 8 year old was eating her lunch he snatched food out of her hand and ran with it to his kennel,something he has also NEVER done. May need to retrain him I think.

Hey again OP

See as you say the dog has been absolutely fine for three years and now this is new behaviour. So one of two things has happened - either he hasn't been fine but you missed the signals until they escalated, or he has been fine and something has changed. Has anything obvious changed, like new neighbours, or your dogs have started scrapping with each other, or anything like that?

You have an eight year old so you'll be aware that in their second and third years children go through a number of milestones that your three year old is in the thick of - they become more self aware, they start to establish their independence, and they also become capable of interacting with other children (and in this case, with pets). So for two years your three year old will have been quite an independent unit versus the dog, handing over a few treats and basically engaging in parallel play, whereas now, your child developmentally is more likely to basically boss the dog around, take things from him, get angry with him, be pushy with him, so on. It's a natural part of being three years old.

Your dog only has one way to reset his boundaries in the face of this new pushiness, and your child is too little to realise that her efforts at independence may get her the canine smack-down.

Also look at how your eight year old interacts with the dog. The highest single demographic for dog bites is children aged 5-9 years. There is a reason for that statistic. Kids that age are capable of interacting fully with their dog at that age, but they're not capable of setting their own boundaries and giving the dog clear signals that certain behaviour is not acceptable.

For your retraining, look into some concepts including 'the triangle of temptation' and 'nothing in life for free'.

In the short term, for the love of God, please keep your kids away from your dog while he's eating. It doesn't matter whether or not the great and holy internet tells you your child should be able to pick up the dog's bowl mid-chomp and upend it over their own head without a reaction from the hound - the point is at this moment your kids CAN'T do that safely. If you have to put him outside in the yard to eat his dinner for a few weeks until you've done some retraining, do it. I also recommend you ask the kids not to give him treats for a few weeks. Reset everything to zero and start over - no treats from hands, no food in the house, work on the triangle of temptation (the dog doesn't touch his dinner until he's allowed by you, but you never take it off him once he's allowed to have it) and nothing in life for free - no doors open, no toys are given, no treats are handed over until the dog works for them.

Good luck with it.

DBB

gozunda wrote: »

And in my experience most animal behaviouists have a 6 month certificate from A.N. Other college if you are lucky. This area is completely unregulated.

What behaviourists have you met with 6 month courses? I'm thinking you haven't met a properly qualified behaviourist yet!
If you had, you'd change your tune about getting your big brush out to tar everyone with it.
You're right in saying that in Ireland, anyone can call themselves a behaviourist at the moment. However, every "behaviourist" I can think of in Ireland falls into one of two groups. There are those who have gone down the route of getting significant undergrad and post-grad training in animal behaviour so that they conform with standards which will eventually come into play in other parts of the world. They have also achieved significant practical experience and proved to professional bodies that they're suitably equipped to practice.
Then there are the other "behaviourists" who have not done 6 month courses either. In fact, they have done no behavioural courses at all.
To make it easier for owners to find out who's genuinely qualified: look for third-level education to degree or equivalent, and look for membership of a professional body which requires high standards (professional and ethical) amongst their members, and who can and will discipline breaches of their charters. The only professional body which accredits qualified behaviourists worldwide is the Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors (APBC). More about that later.

gozunda wrote: »

That association is for Pet Trainers not Animals Behaviourists - they appear to
certify Members based on their own assesment (+Fee) (See HERE) There is no external qualification standard requirement

FYI, APDT Ireland was formed precisely to introduce standards within the dog training field. No academic achievement is required, the candidates have to exhibit an ability to train dogs effectively without resorting to punitive techniques, and must exhibit a decent understanding of the basics of dog behaviour, learning theory etc.


Also FYI, the assessment is designed and overseen by members of the association who are not only highly experienced trainers, but fully certified, qualified, and insured behaviourists. Some lecture within the field, and others already provide courses for other external agencies. The assessments are also overseen by an extern from the UK APDT, whose own assessments are certified by NOCN. The assessment procedure is based on that of APDT UK because it works very well: it is not an easy assessment, but it is a fair way of finding some very good trainers for the public to put their trust in.
External accreditation will eventually be sought by APDT Ireland, but as it stands, as a very young organisation, I think the fact that the organisation is overseen by a highly respected external body is pretty good for now.
You give out about the field being unregulated, yet grouse about an organisation who trainers can voluntarily approach to become a member of as long as they make the grade. Nobody's forcing anybody to join! Up-and-coming trainers out there know that being in such an organisation is good for them, good for their professional development, and good for the dog-owning public because the public can see that this person has been assessed and met minimum criteria, has signed up to ethical dog training, and can be removed from the organisation for breaches of the code of practice. I think you'll find this is how many professional bodies work in all spheres!


You make it sound like a person pays their money, and gets onto a list. Well, you're wrong. The assessment procedure takes a huge amount of organisation, meetings, giving up of free time unpaid, to organise. For the candidates, it is pretty gruelling, from start to finish it takes some weeks to complete.

I don't know any certification agency that doesn't charge a fee? Admin, venues for assessment to be hired, advertisement, all have to be paid for somehow, no matter who the organisation is! Like I said above, you'll find that many professions have a non-statutory professional organisation which imposes standards on their members, and I don't think any of them are free, because it costs money to do what they do.



Now, as for behaviourists. It is absolutely right to say that APDT Ireland is a dog trainer's association, not a behvaiourist's one. However, I think the reason people posted the APDT link here was because, as suggested above, some of the members of the association also happen to be fully certified behaviourists, so it's a pretty good place to start for the uninitiated dog owner who needs more serious help.

I don't know any fully qualified/certified behaviourist who did a 6 month course. In fact, the umbrella group for behaviourists, the Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors, and indeed the certifying body for behaviourists across the world (ASAB: Association for the Study of Animal Behaviour), require that practitioners not only have a minimum of a degree in the field of animal behaviour, but that they also have sufficient practical experience. They also have to keep their education up to date via CPD, or they lose their membership. Many, including those that also happen to be trainers accredited by APDT Ireland, are more highly qualified in the field of behaviour than degree level, and indeed, more highly qualified in their field than any vet or GP is in theirs.

It is no coincidence that insurance companies only pay out for consultations given by properly qualified behaviourists, ie APBC members. Clearly, in the eyes of such companies, a properly qualified behavioural consultant is just as professional in their field as a vet is in veterinary matters. Indeed, members of the APBC are listed by the UK Veterinary Council as being suitable for vets to refer clients to for behavioural consultation, just as members of certain organisation can be referred to for physiotherapy, acupuncture and other paraveterinary fields. So, I think you'll find that properly qualified behaviourists are highly respected by other related professionals, due to the level of education and experience demanded by their profesisonal bodies.

To say that such behaviourists have simply gone and done a 6 month piss-ant course is seriously disingenuous to those, who are growing in number in Ireland, who have put a lot of blood, sweat, tears and money into ensuring they are properly qualified to assume the considerable responsibilities of a behaviourist.


Vets have no behavioural training: there are a couple of lectures in basic behaviour made availavble to them in college, but as they're not compulsory, they're poorly attended. Therefore, vets are not qualified to give animal behaviour advice. Simple as. Actually, there is one vet in Ireland who has done a post-grad in animal behaviour, and as such is the only vet in Ireland qualified to give behavioural advice.


As AJ says, a vet has no more right to give behavioural advice than a GP has to assume a role as a psychological counsellor, or a speech therapist, or a physiotherapist. That's because they're simply not qualified to, and to mix the fields of scientific expertise up and assume ethereal skills to a vet in all matters animal just because they're a vet is just... laughable.


It's a strange thing, that some seem themselves to think it's appropriate to dish out advice on a topic they know no more about than anyone else. GPs don't seem to do this... probably because they know fine well they'll be called on it. The fact that many owners are still of the belief that their vet is infallible is sad, because I have come across so many cases where vets gave out terrible behavioural advice, which resulted in further aggression, further suffering, diminished animal and human welfare, and often, the eventual death of the dog. Had they the proper training in behaviour, they wouldn't give out terrible advice, and would at least know their limits, and know when to refer their clients onto those who are qualified to give advice. The better vets do, and happily, their numbers are growing.

Anyway, to get this back on topic: OP, I would strongly recommend you bring your dog to the vet to get a full behavioural panel done: bloods, skeletal, sources of pain, neurology, because although the dog may appear healthy and fine, they can be tremendously stoical about pain or discomfort. One of the clearest ways of discerning an underlying medical problem in an animal is when they exhibit a sudden change in behaviour. As your dog has suddenly started doing things he never did before, I think your first absolute priority is to rule out an underlying medical condition.
If the work-up reveals nothing, I'd then suggest, for all the reasons I've listed above, that you consider getting a qualified behaviourist in, as although your vet may be very good at veterinary things, the behavioural advice given to you was a little wide of the mark.

JustAThought

OP; I agree with the sweeper : zero treats; zero hand feeding: common sense applies : no more children at foodbowls: ever.

Here's a thought. I find with the long bright days both I and my dog are out on longer Walks and up mooching about later into the evening.
Your kids are pribably off school, its hot & maybe there is more playing & games in the heat going on.
Perhaps your dog is up & about in all the heat and humidity for longer; exercising more & is more " ratty" or simply burning off more energy and hungrier?
That might be a factor in all this too.

SingItOut

ferretone wrote: »

OP, I assume you know how much time in a veterinary course is spent studying training and animal behaviour? :rolleyes:

I did a veterinary course and spent two years studying behavior. It is part of their course. Dog training was an optional subject, The vast majority of qualified vets know what their talking about.

Zapperzy

SingItOut wrote: »

I did a veterinary course and spent two years studying behavior. It is part of their course. Dog training was an optional subject, The vast majority of qualified vets know what their talking about.

What sort of a veterinary course did you do? Would I be right in thinking it wasn't veterinary medicine or veterinary nursing?

The nursing course I'm doing covers behaviour as a module for 6 weeks, I'm not sure of the contact hours each week or the level of detail it'l be covered in as it's not until next year but I certainly wouldn't feel capable or knowledgable enough to give behavioural advice to a client with a troubled dog.

K-9

The Sweeper wrote: »

In the short term, for the love of God, please keep your kids away from your dog while he's eating. It doesn't matter whether or not the great and holy internet tells you your child should be able to pick up the dog's bowl mid-chomp and upend it over their own head without a reaction from the hound - the point is at this moment your kids CAN'T do that safely. If you have to put him outside in the yard to eat his dinner for a few weeks until you've done some retraining, do it. I also recommend you ask the kids not to give him treats for a few weeks. Reset everything to zero and start over - no treats from hands, no food in the house, work on the triangle of temptation (the dog doesn't touch his dinner until he's allowed by you, but you never take it off him once he's allowed to have it) and nothing in life for free - no doors open, no toys are given, no treats are handed over until the dog works for them.

Good luck with it.

Makes perfect sense for the Op's story. Something is up with the dog so better off not consciously putting kids in an area of potential danger. I'd always stick by the old saying of not going near a dog when it is eating, after an incident like this, it's a no brainer. I sincerely mean that in a good way, food is obviously an issue, we don't understand the problem but food seems to be a symptom.


I'd suggest booking an appointment with the vet and get them to look at the dog, rather than having a conversation with the Vet It could be a physical problem with the dog with such a sudden change..