Is Feminism Fair?

yawha

I find that feminism is often accused of being prejudicial or segregating, without really being supported by much, but I will accept your opinion on the matter. I oppose feminism in the form which you have described.

And right and wrong is not black and white, and gender roles are so entrenched in society that it can be hard to see where there are issues if they do not affect you.

I think my later post addresses a lot of what you say about men's rights and women's rights being linked. I don't disagree with you on that.

donfers

yawha wrote: »

I find that feminism is often accused of being prejudicial or segregating, without really being supported by much, but I will accept your opinion on the matter. I oppose feminism in the form which you have described.

And right and wrong is not black and white, and gender roles are so entrenched in society that it can be hard to see where there are issues if they do not affect you.

I think my later post addresses a lot of what you say about men's rights and women's rights being linked. I don't disagree with you on that.

These are all very valid points

sometimes when i go into rant mode i can exaggerate a bit

christmas2012

:pac:sure dont the divorced fathers go down the route of shes a mad psycho betch etc..?

Eric Cartman

christmas2012 wrote: »

:pac:sure dont the divorced fathers go down the route of shes a mad psycho betch etc..?

yeah, and even when thats true they still lose.

py2006

yawha wrote: »

We are?

Well I exaggerated a bit to make a point.

py2006

christmas2012 wrote: »

is mens righs fair men have all the rights..

christmas2012 wrote: »

:pac:sure dont the divorced fathers go down the route of shes a mad psycho betch etc..?

:rolleyes:

There is always one that will pop in.

Tigger

I'm all for equality, I'm for equal pay but I'm also for irrect examination of pay statistics. I'm for a more equal secondary school system and for a more equal college entry . Mabey if we had 50/50 on everything that would be fairer

So mark the leaving to a bell curve for each gender and let 50% of each college course be each gender
Imagine a world where half the physics class is female Nd half the secondary school teachers in training were male.

Let's have half the fire people female and half the nurses male that's the way it should be

In reallity equality dosent mean 50-50 it means equal measurement of the abalities of each individual to decide who is more suited


Anyhow I feel feminisim is a political movement and as such resorts to rhetoric and spin to make its point and so as long as they stop making out we are all potential sexual predators then let them do what they want, free speech costs me nothing.

You say we're all the same
You don't even know my name
Sometime somewhere some man hurt you
I'm one of them so I get stuck with the blame
You think you know about me
You don't know a damn thing about me

I'm not all men, just one man, I'm not all men

There's one subject that everyone enjoys
I heard the boys talk the talk to the boys
I heard the girls talk the talk to the girls
It's all the same noise, neither one's worse
I didn't always tell the truth
But then again, neither did you

I'm not all men
I'm just one man
I'm not that man
I'm not all men

Get away and leave me well alone
Take your damage and take it back on home
I'm not the blame for your misery
Take your threats away from me
Take that damage and leave me all alone

I won't try to patronize you
And tell you that I know exactly what you've been through
You know it just might be
That you have no problem with me
I'm not a rapist in waiting
I'm not the one you should be hating

You take your fear and you pull it inside
It builds up and rage starts to rise
You turn it loose and your anger is blind
And you see me as the enemy
That's not the way it ought to be

You generalize and tell me lies
Like all I want's between you thighs
All the things that I put you through
And all the things that I might do
Don't wonder when I run away
When you tell me it's my time to pay
For all the tears and all the pain
For all the terrible things I never did


Henry Rollins

christmas2012

whats henry rollins doing in there,anyway i think feminism is only fair since we need all our rights,weve had to fight for them for a while now lads,and the whole pregnancy thing and getting fired?another reason why it should still continue..:pac:

ShiftStorm

Thanks everyone for your input; I have found it genuinely helpful and also appreciated that many of the responses in the thread have been thoughtful and reasoned.

Many have said above that if feminists were truly seeking equality rather than seeking 'advantage', they should on principle seek to increase men's rights too such as in the area of family law for example. This is a fair point.

Some questions:

1. Why do you think there are so few men's rights organisations doing the work that many of you say feminists should be doing?

2. Regarding adverts which might considered offensive to men, which bothers you the most: the ads themselves or the silence from those who complain about ads which are offensive to women?

3. With the vast and painful history of the gender wars, have you seen men and women listen to each other on the subject of gender without getting defensive or accusatory? (This is a genuine question, not a barbed one!)

4. Women's rights are very advanced in Ireland. What are your thoughts on women's rights in the rest of the world?

If a question isn't clear, lemme know.

Thanks

ShiftStorm

Tigger wrote: »

as long as they stop making out we are all potential sexual predators then let them do what they want.

I agree. Demonizing men in this way does a disservice to the many men who are respectful towards women and their sexuality.

newport2

byrned17 wrote: »

1. Why do you think there are so few men's rights organisations doing the work that many of you say feminists should be doing?

Because men do not view themselves as a group and only really care when things affect them or those they care about. No government funding available because no polititian would have the balls to propose it. Men's rights are not fashionable.
I don't necessarily think that feminists should be doing this either, but they should have a bit of balance when discussing issues. Some things are harder on women, some are harder on men. If they regularly acknowledged this, they would get more support I think.

byrned17 wrote: »

2. Regarding adverts which might considered offensive to men, which bothers you the most: the ads themselves or the silence from those who complain about ads which are offensive to women?

They don't bother me at all. What does bother me is that children are repeatedly getting drilled into them that men are useless, stupid, come home with the wrong child, etc. Then in ten years time the debate will rage on about why men are not great around the house and pull their weight with the kids.
This is not necessarily just down to sexism however, the majority of ads are aimed at women, hence it makes sense to flatter them consistantly while putting men down.

byrned17 wrote: »

3. With the vast and painful history of the gender wars, have you seen men and women listen to each other on the subject of gender without getting defensive or accusatory? (This is a genuine question, not a barbed one!)

Yes, but it's difficult to get the blinkers to stay off. I think women do have a lot of things tougher in life, but it sometimes bugs me that whenever these come up in the media that life is portrayed as a walk in the park for men.

byrned17 wrote: »

4. Women's rights are very advanced in Ireland. What are your thoughts on women's rights in the rest of the world?

In some countries an absolute disgrace to mankind.

py2006

byrned17 wrote: »

1. Why do you think there are so few men's rights organisations doing the work that many of you say feminists should be doing?

There are very few mens rights organisations because not enough men will/can highlight such issues. Even if they want to they are met with certain barriers. The Feminist movement will never advocate male issues as despite their 'gender equality' ethos some of its associates seem to have issues with that.

byrned17 wrote: »

2. Regarding adverts which might considered offensive to men, which bothers you the most: the ads themselves or the silence from those who complain about ads which are offensive to women?

The later. The double standard is infuriating.

byrned17 wrote: »

3. With the vast and painful history of the gender wars, have you seen men and women listen to each other on the subject of gender without getting defensive or accusatory? (This is a genuine question, not a barbed one!)

Men have listened to woman. Certainly in this country. In my mind its only relatively recently that a handful of men are wanting to be heard. Unfortunately, it is met with a dismissive, defensive and often ridiculed response.

byrned17 wrote: »

4. Women's rights are very advanced in Ireland. What are your thoughts on women's rights in the rest of the world?

Yes womens rights are very advanced in Ireland. Although, a handful of women need to be told that. In other parts of the world, particularly the East things are very disturbing and upsetting.

ShiftStorm

py2006 wrote: »

There are very few mens rights organisations because not enough men will/can highlight such issues.

Why do you think that is?

Even if they want to they are met with certain barriers.

Which barriers?

The Feminist movement will never advocate male issues as despite their 'gender equality' ethos some of its associates seem to have issues with that.

I'm not sure what you mean, can you explain?

The later. The double standard is infuriating.

I understand how double standards must be frustrating. That said, many of the men above have said it doesn't bother them and they wouldn't complain. So men feel this way, why should feminists take on their cause?

Men have listened to woman. Certainly in this country. In my mind its only relatively recently that a handful of men are wanting to be heard. Unfortunately, it is met with a dismissive, defensive and often ridiculed response.

Can you give examples of them being dismissed or ridiculed?

Yes womens rights are very advanced in Ireland. Although, a handful of women need to be told that. In other parts of the world, particularly the East things are very disturbing and upsetting.

Thanks for answering my questions. Hope you don't mind my additional questions!

ShiftStorm

newport2 wrote: »

Because men do not view themselves as a group and only really care when things affect them or those they care about. No government funding available because no polititian would have the balls to propose it. Men's rights are not fashionable.
I don't necessarily think that feminists should be doing this either, but they should have a bit of balance when discussing issues. Some things are harder on women, some are harder on men. If they regularly acknowledged this, they would get more support I think.



They don't bother me at all. What does bother me is that children are repeatedly getting drilled into them that men are useless, stupid, come home with the wrong child, etc. Then in ten years time the debate will rage on about why men are not great around the house and pull their weight with the kids.
This is not necessarily just down to sexism however, the majority of ads are aimed at women, hence it makes sense to flatter them consistantly while putting men down.



Yes, but it's difficult to get the blinkers to stay off. I think women do have a lot of things tougher in life, but it sometimes bugs me that whenever these come up in the media that life is portrayed as a walk in the park for men.



In some countries an absolute disgrace to mankind.

Because men do not view themselves as a group.

Why do you think that is?

No government funding available because no polititian would have the balls to propose it. Men's rights are not fashionable.

Why do you think that is? (Sorry, I'm a parrot of myself!)

I don't necessarily think that feminists should be doing this either, but they should have a bit of balance when discussing issues. Some things are harder on women, some are harder on men.

Agreed.

If they regularly acknowledged this, they would get more support I think.

What would that look like, do you think?

They don't bother me at all. What does bother me is that children are repeatedly getting drilled into them that men are useless, stupid, come home with the wrong child, etc.

It sounds like it does bother you. It definitely bothers me to see men portrayed like that. Why don't you complain?

Then in ten years time the debate will rage on about why men are not great around the house and pull their weight with the kids.
This is not necessarily just down to sexism however, the majority of ads are aimed at women, hence it makes sense to flatter them consistantly while putting men down.

I agree, and I find the effort to flatter women by patronising men quite patronising in itself!

Yes, but it's difficult to get the blinkers to stay off. I think women do have a lot of things tougher in life, but it sometimes bugs me that whenever these come up in the media that life is portrayed as a walk in the park for men.

Understood.

byrned17

byrned17 wrote: »

Thanks everyone for your input; I have found it genuinely helpful and also appreciated that many of the responses in the thread have been thoughtful and reasoned.

Many have said above that if feminists were truly seeking equality rather than seeking 'advantage', they should on principle seek to increase men's rights too such as in the area of family law for example. This is a fair point.

Some questions:

1. Why do you think there are so few men's rights organisations doing the work that many of you say feminists should be doing?

A few reasons. Historically there's been no "need" for it ad starting a movement without clear "evidence" of injustice. The other issue is that the vast majority of men have a similar perception to me that personal choices are a bigger determinant than "discrimination". Young fellas are busy being tools so do worse in education, is it evidence of discrimination that women dominate so many professional fields at a college level now? Of course not, it's down to individuals. On the other hand I read articles from different countries about how we "need" more women in IT. For some unknown reason. Any time a report come out it's a few more jobs justified for banging a drum.

2. Regarding adverts which might considered offensive to men, which bothers you the most: the ads themselves or the silence from those who complain about ads which are offensive to women?

I'll take a massive guess here that most fellas don't give a **** about the ads themselves but the double standards. I don't know a guy who hasn't been assaulted by a girl at some point but it's completely fine. I don't think a one-off is a big deal either way but for most people it is when it's male on female. The advertising is similar, if we're going to get to a point when we're not allowed to say anything that any poor, defenceless woman might find annoying then it has to cut both ways.

3. With the vast and painful history of the gender wars, have you seen men and women listen to each other on the subject of gender without getting defensive or accusatory? (This is a genuine question, not a barbed one!)

Unfortunately it's quite rare. Recently had a discussion with someone who did take on board most of what I said because I explained how misleading so many headline statistics are. Once someone gets to the point where they call themselves a feminist they're going to want to defend that whatever. Similar to any position. I'll listen to anything anyone says but if they quote a stat I'll check it out rather than take a misleading one at face value. I've not had my mind changed much :pac:

4. Women's rights are very advanced in Ireland. What are your thoughts on women's rights in the rest of the world?

Again in some ways a lot of the issues where women face discrimination in poorer countries is down discrimination against all but the ruling classes. It's rich men rather than men in general who are favoured. Anyway, most of the issues in Africa are a result of political corruption screwing everybody/thing up and of religion having way too much influence.
The current stuff going on in America where some are trying to make contraception into a political issue is just ridiculous but it just shows how little they actually have to fight about :pac:

Reku

byrned17 wrote: »

No government funding available because no polititian would have the balls to propose it. Men's rights are not fashionable.
Why do you think that is? (Sorry, I'm a parrot of myself!)

Because many of the more vocal "feminists" would have kittens were such a thing even hinted at, while the rest would just tag along for the ride rather than speak out against "their fellow sisters". Their (the crazies in the "feminist" camp) warped viewpoint prevents them from even conceiving that men are not always at an advantage.

byrned17 wrote: »

If they regularly acknowledged this, they would get more support I think.
What would that look like, do you think?

It would look like they are not simply misandrists out to blame men for all the ills of the world.

byrned17 wrote: »

4. Women's rights are very advanced in Ireland. What are your thoughts on women's rights in the rest of the world?

Which is part of my problem with "feminists", it's only occasionally that you hear them complain about the hardships suffered by women in other countries as loudly as you do the comparatively minor hardships they suffer here, just as with their lack of interest in pushing for equality where they are in a better situation than men, as a group, they appear to be largely only interested in what benefits them directly. The plight of female babies in China, the treatment of women in places where certain religions dictate how things are done, etc..., heck there are places where women aren't even allowed to get a proper education!:mad:
Most of the time they seem too busy worrying over an imagined pay-gap and how taking a sabbatical for a few months puts them on a weaker footing, than those who do not, rather than these far greater issues of inequality elsewhere in the world.
Self-interest masquerading as something more noble.:(

Then they also try pick up things such as abusive partners and rape as "feminist issues" when they are not, both genders can be perpetrators/victims in these matters and they are a criminal matter, not a gender one.

byrned17 wrote: »

3. With the vast and painful history of the gender wars, have you seen men and women listen to each other on the subject of gender without getting defensive or accusatory? (This is a genuine question, not a barbed one!)

I've had many discussions on gender topics with female friends and relatives, usually we both come away with a bit more insight, throw a female who considers herself a feminist into the mix though and you mostly just get anger and the same old diatribe out of them until you just give up.:(
In some ways it's reminiscent of how cult members respond when their doctrine is questioned...:(

sharper

Reku wrote: »

prevents them from even conceiving that men are not always at an advantage.

I think a big part of the problem is the insistence on dividing the population into "men" and "women".

The argument would go that most of those in government are men therefore "men" have an overwhelming legislative advantage and "their" interests are well looked after.

The reality is there's no difference in alignment of interests between me and a male TD than there is between a woman and a male TD. For all the men in the dail none of them are interested in "male rights" or are willing to advocate for it.

Conversely we have a lot of female rights activists who are either for equality or become suddenly coy and claim not to really know what men would want depending on who's asking. It's therefore not surprising that many areas of law, particularly family law, are becoming increasingly hostile to men.

Another good example is the gender quota for political parties. There are serious problems with the way politics are run in this country, problems which keep out qualified men and women from many different walks of life. Rather than fix any of that though we're just going to make sure there's an arbitrarily "fair" share of corrupt incompetent women to go along with the corrupt incompetent men.

VinLieger

My main problem with feminists is their claim to be "for equality".

They are not for equality they are "for women"

This is why men get annoyed at them not complaining about adds that descriminate against women because they claim to be for equal standards yet they are completely silent when men are discriminated against.

They either need to stand up and admit they arent for equality everywhere and admit they want as much as they can get for women even if it means men being horribly discriminated against OR actually be for equality and call out things that are discriminatory to men as well as women.

Simply put my main problem with feminists is their false claims of wanting equality but then leaving out only as long as women are more equal than men

sharper

VinLieger wrote: »

My main problem with feminists is their claim to be "for equality".

They are not for equality they are "for women"

The way I like to think of it is this: Imagine there was a "men's rights" movement of some type. Imagine the type of characters that would be drawn to such a movement and how difficult they would make it to get anything sensible done.

Feminism naturally suffers from the same problem. Particular that it's been so successful that most women also no longer consider themselves a group needing special rights.

Most of the people just interested in equality are busy getting on with their lives.

py2006

byrned17 wrote: »

Thanks for answering my questions. Hope you don't mind my additional questions!

Not at all. Are you doing some form of research?

There are very few mens rights organisations because not enough men will/can highlight such issues.

Why do you think that is?

Sections of society seems to think that it is only women that have rights issues and suffer at the hands of discrimination. It is very hard for men to highlight issues because he will be seen (by some) as being less than a man. Also, there the government does not seem interested (yet) in raising much awareness.


Even if they want to they are met with certain barriers.

Which barriers?

Men who raise issues or complain about inequality or discrimination or speak openly about domestic abuse are met with:

a) Get over it/grow a pair.
b) hahahaha
c) Sure aren't you bigger than her
d) You must hate women

As hard as it is for women to report issues it is a 1000 timesharder for men.

The Feminist movement will never advocate male issues as despite their 'gender equality' ethos some of its associates seem to have issues with that.

I'm not sure what you mean, can you explain?

Well the feminist movement is about gender equality. It is quite obvious that some women see it and use it as a stick to bash evil men with. Rather than striving for equality they are looking to gain an advantage. Turning a blind eye to discrimination and injustices that doesn't effect them. Alot of awful double standards. It makes a mockery of the whole thing.


The later. The double standard is infuriating.

I understand how double standards must be frustrating. That said, many of the men above have said it doesn't bother them and they wouldn't complain. So men feel this way, why should feminists take on their cause?

Yes, the likes of the so called funny ads that depict men as meaningless, worthless, stupid idiots or even sex objects is not something that men generally get up in arms about. Its the fact that we hear some much enrage when the roles are reversed that some men now, on principle, will point these out to those that believe it is only a female issue. This is often dismissed and laughed at.

I don't necessarily think feminist should take on that cause. I think if they are to be taken seriously they shouldn't strive for equality (in the true sense of the word) and not where it suits them


Men have listened to woman. Certainly in this country. In my mind its only relatively recently that a handful of men are wanting to be heard. Unfortunately, it is met with a dismissive, defensive and often ridiculed response.

Can you give examples of them being dismissed or ridiculed?

Well if you spend enough time on Boards you will come across it. There are a few threads on here where if a discussion starts a few female posters (I won't name them) will treat it as an attack on their issues. Or indeed you may get the 'grow a pair' response.

Outside of Boards (in the real world) I have come across it in conversations with friends. I brought up the topic of domestic abuse before and a female friend got enraged when I mentioned male victims. She believed I was attempting to detract from the very serious issue that affects females.

I recall an uncomfortable class I was in when I was much younger. The topic of rape came up and it made me uneasy as I was the only male in the class. Out of curiousity I asked the lecturer was there many or any cases of male victims which was met with a chorus of 'tuts' and laughter.

Playboy

byrned17 wrote: »

Look at statistics in Ireland on domestic abuse, human trafficking, sexual crime rates, women in leadership positions in business and politics...Thankfully, things are so much better than they were in Ireland compared to other countries but there is still room for improvement.

Human Trafficking - While unfortunate is not a symptom of inequality or discrimination in the Western World. It is illegal and a crime.

Sexual crime rates - Same as above.

leadership positions in business and politics - This stat always confuses me. I would like to see some context to it but I never do when its rolled out. Are there as many women as men in business and politics in general? Are the women in business and politics as a whole similarly ambitious as men in the same field? What about the impact of women have families, how does that affect the stat?

Equality is all well and fine if people do realise that there are differences between the sexes. Men are generally physically stronger and dont have babies. We have hormonal differences which effect our behaviour. Both sexes have been conditioned for generations to fulfill certain societal roles... its not easy for society to unlearn those ideas and in some cases the majority of men and women dont want to unlearn them.

Men and women are more or less equal in the eyes of the law in most western democracies bar some issues re custody etc. The issue isnt a legal one but a behavioural and intellectual one. Most people dont even realise they are being sexist when they are and that goes for both sexes. It is going to take us generations of slowing unlearning thousands of years of traditional thinking before we can say we are truly equal

K-9

Reku wrote: »

So in short only prostitutes can speak about prostitution....
Only rape victims can speak about rape... (FYI women can be rapists)
Only victims of domestic abuse... (FYI women can be the abusers)
etc...
etc...

Gee... most "feminist" issues could be swept aside by her reasoning for not being interested in pursuing issues where men are the ones being discriminated against, so is this just yet another case of a feminist seeing things one way when it suits and another when it doesn't?

The Irish people finally realize they don't really need a body that only represents the interests of select groups and not the populace as a whole (a.k.a. the Séanad) yet still many feel the need to embrace other such organizations...:(
Seriously, the sooner humanity just up and dies and lets another species have a crack at making less of a hash of society the better... *facepalm*:(

I don't think she is saying that at all, she says "assume" not never and I can see her point. I can speak out about homosexual rights but I shouldn't assume I'd have the same understanding of the issue as a gay man, doesn't stop me campaigning or believing it, just a gay man will have probably experienced homophobia etc. personally during his life.

As for feminism I do struggle to see any big issues that aren't covered by law, complaint boards etc. but I would listen to any women who do see issues and make my mind up. I wouldn't particularly listen to men on the issue which I suppose proves the point she is making.

I'd think a lot of the areas that both sexes feel discriminated on would be better suited in a joint approach these days, family law needs a full scale review to look at the rights of all 3 parties involved and sexist attitudes seem a more societal issue these days as both sexes can have very old fashioned views.

K-9

byrned17 wrote: »

Thanks everyone for your input; I have found it genuinely helpful and also appreciated that many of the responses in the thread have been thoughtful and reasoned.

Many have said above that if feminists were truly seeking equality rather than seeking 'advantage', they should on principle seek to increase men's rights too such as in the area of family law for example. This is a fair point.

One area that would benefit women would be if more joint custody was allowed challenging the institutional view that women are care givers and men breadwinners.

Some questions:

1. Why do you think there are so few men's rights organisations doing the work that many of you say feminists should be doing?

Lack of awareness and often resignation. seems to be the case with family law anyway.

2. Regarding adverts which might considered offensive to men, which bothers you the most: the ads themselves or the silence from those who complain about ads which are offensive to women?

The ads themselves, they are just lazy on both sexes.

3. With the vast and painful history of the gender wars, have you seen men and women listen to each other on the subject of gender without getting defensive or accusatory? (This is a genuine question, not a barbed one!)

Yes.

4. Women's rights are very advanced in Ireland. What are your thoughts on women's rights in the rest of the world?

Some horrible abuses in some countries.

newport2

byrned17 wrote: »

Because men do not view themselves as a group.

Why do you think that is?

Because generally seeking help is viewed as a sign of weakness amongst men. Always hearing people giving out that they can never get their Dad to go to the doctor for example? Women tend to discuss things more openly, including problems and in this way relate to each others problems more, which helps create a kind of community (not sure if that is the right word) among them. A lot also tend to back each other up whether they think they are right or wrong.

byrned17 wrote: »

No government funding available because no polititian would have the balls to propose it. Men's rights are not fashionable.

Why do you think that is? (Sorry, I'm a parrot of myself!)

Because certain groups would go bananas about it. Advocating yourself as a fighter for women's rights wins votes, starting to say that men can be victims too will not. Votes are what polititians are primarily interested in.

Men do worse in education, higher suicide, worse health, die younger, etc. Rarely mentioned by polititians. If girls were year after year doing worse in school it would be top of the political agenda. And if women were dying younger than men? Some say this is down to men's lifestyles, but just imagine if a polititian came out in a reverse situation and said the reason women were dying younger was all their own fault? He would be lynched. No problem saying it about men though.

byrned17 wrote: »

I don't necessarily think that feminists should be doing this either, but they should have a bit of balance when discussing issues. Some things are harder on women, some are harder on men.

Agreed.

If they regularly acknowledged this, they would get more support I think.

What would that look like, do you think?

It would look like they were more in touch with reality and would give a bit more realism to what they say. Lots of men switch off when it comes up, because the general mantra is Men = bad, women = good, men have no problems, women do. If a man points out the obvious and says things are not quite that simple and that's not altogether true, he'll be branded a sexist pig.
I think if you want to change society as these groups do, then isolating 50% of the world's population is not the best approach to it. I believe equality would have progressed faster had a more balanced approach been taken.

byrned17 wrote: »

They don't bother me at all. What does bother me is that children are repeatedly getting drilled into them that men are useless, stupid, come home with the wrong child, etc.

It sounds like it does bother you. It definitely bothers me to see men portrayed like that. Why don't you complain?

Like I said, it doesn't bother me. I know there are both clever and stupid men and women across the board and I know most men and women know that.

byrned17 wrote: »

Then in ten years time the debate will rage on about why men are not great around the house and pull their weight with the kids.
This is not necessarily just down to sexism however, the majority of ads are aimed at women, hence it makes sense to flatter them consistantly while putting men down.

I agree, and I find the effort to flatter women by patronising men quite patronising in itself!

I think you'll find a significant proportion of the fashion and advertising industry who orchestrate these ads pointed at women are women. Women know far better how to push other women's buttons that men do. Whose opinion would you ask if you wanted to know what women want to hear, a man's or a woman's? You've just assumed here that they are all patronising men. Note (your last sentence in the quote above can be read 2 ways! )



Don't want to appear like I'm on a rant here, I'm just answering your questions. I'm all for equal rights and would support feminism as a whole, because I know most of the people behind it are decent people with a genuine cause.

ShiftStorm

newport2 wrote: »

Don't want to appear like I'm on a rant here, I'm just answering your questions. I'm all for equal rights and would support feminism as a whole, because I know most of the people behind it are decent people with a genuine cause.

Not at all, your answers have been very helpful.

ShiftStorm

OK apologies in advance if these questions seems a bit touchy-feely!:

If a female friend of yours was harrassed in work or on the street by an overtly sexist man and told you about it, how do you think you would you react?

A: Compassionately
B: Compassionately but also slightly defensively (Something like "Sorry to hear that. But not all men are like that you know!")
C: Defensively

If you had a female boss who occasionally playfully smacked you on the ass in work (as happened to my bro-in-law), would you:

A: Approach her and say it made you uncomfortable and ask her to stop
B: Laugh
C: File a complaint

py2006

byrned17 wrote: »

OK apologies in advance if these questions seems a bit touchy-feely!:

If a female friend of yours was harrassed in work or on the street by an overtly sexist man and told you about it, how do you think you would you react?

A: Compassionately
B: Compassionately but also slightly defensively (Something like "Sorry to hear that. But not all men are like that you know!")
C: Defensively

If you had a female boss who occasionally playfully smacked you on the ass in work (as happened to my bro-in-law), would you:

A: Approach her and say it made you uncomfortable and ask her to stop
B: Laugh
C: File a complaint

Can I just ask you first, why all these questions? Are you doing research? And what is your own perspective?

newport2

byrned17 wrote: »

OK apologies in advance if these questions seems a bit touchy-feely!:

If a female friend of yours was harrassed in work or on the street by an overtly sexist man and told you about it, how do you think you would you react?

A: Compassionately
B: Compassionately but also slightly defensively (Something like "Sorry to hear that. But not all men are like that you know!")
C: Defensively

A

byrned17 wrote: »

If you had a female boss who occasionally playfully smacked you on the ass in work (as happened to my bro-in-law), would you:

A: Approach her and say it made you uncomfortable and ask her to stop
B: Laugh
C: File a complaint

I'd tell her to get a grip and not to do it again.

If a man did C: he'd have to leave the company. He'd be treated as a standing joke by men and women alike. Generally when men face issues like this they are told to wise up.

ShiftStorm

py2006 wrote: »

Can I just ask you first, why all these questions? Are you doing research? And what is your own perspective?

The original post links to a blog post written by myself. This blog was set up by myself and a few male and female friends with reflections about gender from male and female perspectives. (But it is called The Feminerds which you may not like!) Actually, if anyone here would like to write a blog post for it about their experience as a man, I would love that! I would have called myself a feminist but have rarely been able to have civil conversations with those who wouldn't identify them as so, even though I am genuinely interested in knowing other perspectives. Know what I mean? Like some have said, it is so difficult to have productive and respectful conversations about gender.

Make sense? In case anyone is worried, I don't have any sinister agendas or traps lined up!

ShiftStorm

newport2 wrote: »

A



I'd tell her to get a grip and not to do it again.

If a man did C: he'd have to leave the company. He'd be treated as a standing joke by men and women alike. Generally when men face issues like this they are told to wise up.

Yes, my brother-in-law told her to stop and she did and he found the whole thing very embarrassing. Frankly, I hate the double standards when it comes to sexual harrassment.

Goafer

byrned17 wrote: »

Do you think all women are selective when it comes to equality?

Without a shadow of a doubt

py2006

I had an instance in the work place before where a female colleague made a comment about my jeans being fitting me well. It was obvious what she was referring to and herself and the others female colleagues roared laughing.

Now I wasn't offended, I was embarrassed. It wasn't till later that day that a male colleague took me aside and pointed out what the consequences would be if I made a similar comment about a womans top or skirt. As a temp at the time, I would have been out the door. If I was permanent, I could have potentially faced an investigation into sexual harassment with the possibility of being sacked.

EDIT: meant wasn't offended.

ShiftStorm

py2006 wrote: »

I had an instance in the work place before where a female colleague made a comment about my jeans being fitting me well. It was obvious what she was referring to and herself and the others female colleagues roared laughing.

Now I was offended, I was embarrassed. It wasn't till later that day that a male colleague took me aside and pointed out what the consequences would be if I made a similar comment about a womans top or skirt. As a temp at the time, I would have been out the door. If I was permanent, I could have potentially faced an investigation into sexual harassment with the possibility of being sacked.

Ah that's awful

py2006

byrned17 wrote: »

OK apologies in advance if these questions seems a bit touchy-feely!:

If a female friend of yours was harrassed in work or on the street by an overtly sexist man and told you about it, how do you think you would you react?

A: Compassionately
B: Compassionately but also slightly defensively (Something like "Sorry to hear that. But not all men are like that you know!")
C: Defensively

If you had a female boss who occasionally playfully smacked you on the ass in work (as happened to my bro-in-law), would you:

A: Approach her and say it made you uncomfortable and ask her to stop
B: Laugh
C: File a complaint

For the first questions, A.
For the second, knowing me I would laugh embarrasingly at the time but get annoyed over it afterwards (on a matter of principle). So probably B and then A. C would most likely lead nowhere.

Dolbert

I have often wondered what would happen if a man complained about sexual harrassment in the workplace, would it even be taken seriously? Even when discussions come up about a young man being sexually abused by an older woman, there are a slew of guys queueing to make the usual 'niiiice' responses, as if a male would automatically enjoy any sexual contact no matter what the circumstances.

Playboy

byrned17 wrote: »

OK apologies in advance if these questions seems a bit touchy-feely!:

If a female friend of yours was harrassed in work or on the street by an overtly sexist man and told you about it, how do you think you would you react?

A: Compassionately
B: Compassionately but also slightly defensively (Something like "Sorry to hear that. But not all men are like that you know!")
C: Defensively

A no question. I'd actually probably go looking for the guy

byrned17 wrote: »

If you had a female boss who occasionally playfully smacked you on the ass in work (as happened to my bro-in-law), would you:

A: Approach her and say it made you uncomfortable and ask her to stop
B: Laugh
C: File a complaint

B probably... dont think I'd find it embarrasing either. Would actually like it if she was hot!

Thats being totally honest! I can understand the whole vice versa thing but it wouldnt bother me because I dont percieve myself as oppressed or discriminated against so a bit of playful ass smakcing wouldnt bother me. I'd never try or even think about doing it in return though!

ShiftStorm

Dolorous wrote: »

I have often wondered what would happen if a man complained about sexual harrassment in the workplace, would it even be taken seriously? Even when discussions come up about a young man being sexually abused by an older woman, there are a slew of guys queueing to make the usual 'niiiice' responses, as if a male would automatically enjoy any sexual contact no matter what the circumstances.

And also from women telling him to get over himself I'd say...! It's totally unfair.

ShiftStorm

Playboy wrote: »

A no question. I'd actually probably go looking for the guy



B probably... dont think I'd find it embarrasing either. Would actually like it if she was hot!

Thats being totally honest! I can understand the whole vice versa thing but it wouldnt bother me because I dont percieve myself as oppressed or discriminated against so a bit of playful ass smakcing wouldnt bother me. I'd never try or even think about doing it in return though!

That's fair enough. I think the problem comes in when people rely on gender determism, ie., all men are X and all women are Y. The general assumption could be that all guys would feel the way you do about sexual "harrassment" but it's just not the case.

py2006

Dolorous wrote: »

I have often wondered what would happen if a man complained about sexual harrassment in the workplace, would it even be taken seriously? Even when discussions come up about a young man being sexually abused by an older woman, there are a slew of guys queueing to make the usual 'niiiice' responses, as if a male would automatically enjoy any sexual contact no matter what the circumstances.

In fairness, there are a slew girls that will go, "yeaaa yeaaa, you wish" or "yeaaaa, you loved every minute of it".

ShiftStorm

py2006 wrote: »

In fairness, there are a slew girls that will go, "yeaaa yeaaa, you wish" or "yeaaaa, you loved every minute of it".

I said that too above

Dolbert

py2006 wrote: »

In fairness, there are a slew girls that will go, "yeaaa yeaaa, you wish" or "yeaaaa, you loved every minute of it".

I meant on boards/ AH type threads, which is going to attract a certain type of poster to be fair!

ShiftStorm

Those examples of sexual harassment cases against men not being taken seriously are definitely an example of sexism in my opinion.

What kind of sexism do you see against women in Ireland in your experience, if any?

Reekwind

Dolorous wrote: »

I have often wondered what would happen if a man complained about sexual harrassment in the workplace, would it even be taken seriously?

It should be. That it might not is down to well worn gender roles: men are traditionally held to be in the position of power and women the weak and dependent underlings. In this hypothetical the reaction of many would be to assume that the man is at least complicit in the 'harassment'; that is the part that men have traditionally played in these scenarios

It's an example of how traditional gender roles and norms (even in a male dominated world) don't actually represent all men and can be damaging to individual guys

You can even spin the hypothetical around to examine how deeply embedded these notions are. A man who sleeps around is a 'player', a woman who does the same is a 'slut'. That's the context (ie, very different perceptions of sexual roles in society) that any sexual harassment cases exist in

Edit:

What kind of sexism do you see against women in Ireland in your experience, if any?

Head. Desk

"As a man I've never experienced any form of sexism. Therefore it must not exist!"

py2006

Dolorous wrote: »

I meant on boards/ AH type threads, which is going to attract a certain type of poster to be fair!

Well it attracts a certain type of post too as that is the nature of After Hours.

ShiftStorm

Reekwind wrote: »

It should be. That it might not is down to well worn gender roles: men are traditionally held to be in the position of power and women the weak and dependent underlings. In this hypothetical the reaction of many would be to assume that the man is at least complicit in the 'harassment'; that is the part that men have traditionally played in these scenarios

It's an example of how traditional gender roles and norms (even in a male dominated world) don't actually represent all men and can be damaging to individual guys

You can even spin the hypothetical around to examine how deeply embedded these notions are. A man who sleeps around is a 'player', a woman who does the same is a 'slut'. That's the context (ie, very different perceptions of sexual roles in society) that any sexual harassment cases exist in

Edit:
Head. Desk

"As a man I've never experienced any form of sexism. Therefore it must not exist!"

I'm a woman actually and I'm wondering if men notice sexism against women.

py2006

byrned17 wrote: »

Those examples of sexual harassment cases against men not being taken seriously are definitely an example of sexism in my opinion.

What kind of sexism do you see against women in Ireland in your experience, if any?

I think the term sexism is thrown around too loosely. There are those that will cry sexism at the slightest thing. Lately, men are throwing it back in the face of women in a kind of tit for tat way. The incidental examples of sexism which effects both sexes is something that generally doesn't bother men but some women like to be offended by it.

I don't believe there are any serious and legitimate cases of sexism against women in modern Ireland. We have reached a point were men are almost apologizing for themselves in case they might be potentially and unknowingly sexist out of fear.

Reekwind

byrned17 wrote: »

I'm a woman actually and I'm wondering if men notice sexism against women.

Out of curiosity, are you amongst the 75% of Irish working women recently polled who have experienced sexism in the workplace?

Just because we're no longer chaining women to the stove does not mean that sexism is dead

ShiftStorm

Reekwind wrote: »

Out of curiosity, are you amongst the 75% of Irish working women recently polled who have experienced sexism in the workplace?

Just because we're no longer chaining women to the stove does not mean that sexism is dead

I never said sexism was dead. I am trying to ask questions to these guys and listen to their answers so I can learn something. I'm not here for a debate or to try to change anyone's mind.

Chimpokomon

py2006 wrote: »

I don't believe there are any serious and legitimate cases of sexism against women in modern Ireland.

Right, so women experience no sexism, but men do? And feminists are self-serving :rolleyes:

py2006

Reekwind wrote: »

Out of curiosity, are you amongst the 75% of Irish working women recently polled who have experienced sexism in the workplace?

Just because we're no longer chaining women to the stove does not mean that sexism is dead

Thats a misleading article. Just because their boss isn't a woman doesn't mean it is down to sexism. There are other contributing factors to men advancing quicker in certain circumstances.

If they start giving promotions to women just because they don't want to be sexist than that is just as bad. Reminds me of the 30% enforced quota of female politicans malarky...