Ridiculous arguments for believing

bnt

laugh wrote: »

We should teach philosophy instead of religion right through the school system?

They do teach philosophy in schools, even if it's not labelled as "Philosophy" on the timetable. Reading Silas Marner or The Merchant of Venice in English class, learning about the Ancient Greeks and Romans in History, mixing chemicals that blow up or dropping ball bearings to see how quickly they accelerate ... these all help to form a person's personality and their view of how the world works.

Creationism is an explicit philosophy: a false philosophy. A lie. When we ask that it not be taught to kids, we're not asking that they be taught "Atheism" in its place. All those other substantive subjects, the ones that teach us about the world as it really was and is - the ones that don't need to preach lies that have no basis in reality - they are all the philosophy kids need in school. In my humble opinion, of course.

lawnmower_man

bnt wrote: »

You sort-of answered your own question there. Is religion really the only way to stop some people from killing? Or, as you imply, is it possible to identify the reasons why they kill - and then do something about the reasons? Prevention is always better than cure. Particularly when the cure can be as bad as the disease.

the vast majority of people will never kill or be in a possition where they feel the need , all i was saying was that if religon ( like prison ) acts as a deterant , surely this is a good thing , however imperfect

as for identifying and adressing the reasons , not everyone live a comfortable middle class western lifestyle where booking an appointment with a 150 euro an hour therapist is an option or affordable

GarIT

lawnmower_man wrote: »

bnt wrote: »

You sort-of answered your own question there. Is religion really the only way to stop some people from killing? Or, as you imply, is it possible to identify the reasons why they kill - and then do something about the reasons? Prevention is always better than cure. Particularly when the cure can be as bad as the disease.

the vast majority of people will never kill or be in a possition where they feel the need , all i was saying was that if religon ( like prison ) acts as a deterant , surely this is a good thing , however imperfect

as for identifying and adressing the reasons , not everyone live a comfortable middle class western lifestyle where booking an appointment with a 150 euro an hour therapist is an option or affordable

If it causes terrible things to its not worth it. For example it causes people to hate homosexuals.

What does someones social class have to do with anything? Its a reason for what?






Has anyone heard the latest arguement? "The existence of the god particle proves that god exists".

lawnmower_man

GarIT wrote: »

If it causes terrible things to its not worth it. For example it causes people to hate homosexuals.

What does someones social class have to do with anything? Its a reason for what?






Has anyone heard the latest arguement? "The existence of the god particle proves that god exists".

most religous people do not hate homosexuals and besides , homosexuality has nothing to do with the thread

a persons social class ( or nationality ) is very often reflective of their financial circumstance , a person in africa or india is unlikely to be able to afford a psychiatricts to discuss their anger issues , therefore if belief in god prevents them from committing serious harm , surely that is possitive prevention however flawed

bnt

lawnmower_man wrote: »

as for identifying and adressing the reasons , not everyone live a comfortable middle class western lifestyle where booking an appointment with a 150 euro an hour therapist is an option or affordable

Therefore, it makes sense to believe in religion?

I think your argument has been stretched beyond breaking point. Or, if I may mix metaphors: you're in a hole, so I recommend you stop digging.

GarIT

lawnmower_man wrote: »

most religous people do not hate homosexuals and besides , homosexuality has nothing to do with the thread

a persons social class ( or nationality ) is very often reflective of their financial circumstance , a person in africa or india is unlikely to be able to afford a psychiatricts to discuss their anger issues , therefore if belief in god prevents them from committing serious harm , surely that is possitive prevention however flawed

You must not know enough about religion so, Catholicism is a confessionalist religion, you either believe everything or you cannot be part of the religion. Therefore if you do not hate homosexuals and support the churches stance on gay marriage it is actually impossible to be a Catholic.

Brainwashing someone into behaving in a certain way can never be good no matter what the results are.

sid waddell

GarIT wrote: »

Has anyone heard the latest arguement? "The existence of the god particle proves that god exists".

Is that like when the presence of pure evil was detected in Bart's twin Hugo in The Simpsons?

lawnmower_man

GarIT wrote: »

You must not know enough about religion so, Catholicism is a confessionalist religion, you either believe everything or you cannot be part of the religion. Therefore if you do not hate homosexuals and support the churches stance on gay marriage it is actually impossible to be a Catholic.

Brainwashing someone into behaving in a certain way can never be good no matter what the results are.

your talking nonesense , my mother and two of my sisters are practicing catholics and neither of them hate gay people , their are many religons which are a whole lot more anti gay than catholicism , try the orange order or those fundamentalist protestant churches in the usa , islam etc

GarIT

lawnmower_man wrote: »

Your talking nonesense , my mother and two of my sisters are practicing catholics and neither of them hate gay people , their are many religons which are a whole lot more anti gay than catholicism , try the orange order or those fundamentalist protestant churches in the usa , islam etc

They cannot possibly be Catholics, I have studied it and found if you do not agree with the churches stance on everything you are not really a member. I will link to it later.

Many people say they are Catholic when they are not. Its like if I stand in my garden, ring a friend and tell them that I am inside my house, they will believe me that I am in the house but that does not mean that I am actually in the house.

In theory me saying "I am a Catholic" means I agree with every teaching of the catholic Church, it does not mean I believe some of what they say.

Practicing the catholic religion includes actively encouraging the death penalty for homosexuals. What you say about your parents is like me throwing a basketball into a hoop and telling everyone that I am practicing football.

It is in the rules of being a catholic that if you don't agree with everything you can't actually call yourself a catholic. If there's one tiny thing you disagree on it is impossible to be Roman Catholic.

I really don't understand why people we say they are a member of a group when they probably haven't even read any of the texts its based on.

If you are really that knowledgeable about religion can you please show me proof that there is another religion where there is something worse than saying all its followers must believe that "anyone who commits a homosexual act must face the death penalty"?

Also can you show me where in the Catholic religion does it say its ok to disagree with them on some things?

My understanding of it is if you do not believe all the Catholic teachings it is impossible for you to go to their version of heaven.

lawnmower_man

GarIT wrote: »

They cannot possibly be Catholics, I have studied it and found if you do not agree with the churches stance on everything you are not really a member. I will link to it later.

Many people say they are Catholic when they are not. Its like if I stand in my garden, ring a friend and tell them that I am inside my house, they will believe me that I am in the house but that does not mean that I am actually in the house.

In theory me saying "I am a Catholic" means I agree with every teaching of the catholic Church, it does not mean I believe some of what they say.

Practicing the catholic religion includes actively encouraging the death penalty for homosexuals. What you say about your parents is like me throwing a basketball into a hoop and telling everyone that I am practicing football.

It is in the rules of being a catholic that if you don't agree with everything you can't actually call yourself a catholic. If there's one tiny thing you disagree on it is impossible to be Roman Catholic.

I really don't understand why people we say they are a member of a group when they probably haven't even read any of the texts its based on.

so the institution of the catholic church is in favour of the death penalty for homosexuals , your mad , totally mad

the catholic church is not in favour of the death penalty for any crime , let alone for being of a particular sexual orientation

nowhere will you find more fairweather followers than in the catholic church ,most catholics in ireland dont agree with the vaticans possition on contraception , now you with your ( obvious ) literal definition of what its means to be a catholic , would say those people are not catholics , try standing outside a church some day and quiz those leaving as to whether they are fully fledged catholics , most people dont respond well to doctranaire attitudes , they might be respected in law libary and such but not amongs the common people in the real world

anyway , we,ve gone off track , this isnt about homosexuality , im done discussing this irrelvancy

qrrgprgua

GarIT wrote: »

You must not know enough about religion so, Catholicism is a confessionalist religion, you either believe everything or you cannot be part of the religion. Therefore if you do not hate homosexuals and support the churches stance on gay marriage it is actually impossible to be a Catholic.

Brainwashing someone into behaving in a certain way can never be good no matter what the results are.

You have a very backward and ignorant knowledge of Catholicism.

Absolutely nowhere in the Catholic Church teaching does it say to hate Homosexuals.

shizz

qrrgprgua wrote: »

You have a very backward and ignorant knowledge of Catholicism.

Absolutely nowhere in the Catholic Church teaching does it say to hate Homosexuals.

But I thought the teachings came from this bad boy?

Corkfeen

qrrgprgua wrote: »

You have a very backward and ignorant knowledge of Catholicism.

Absolutely nowhere in the Catholic Church teaching does it say to hate Homosexuals.

Just that any homosexual acts will result in them being doomed to hell?(although masturbation is also a mortal sin :O ) Plus their constant claims of same sex marriage being an abomination . Ohhh and the claim that it's unnatural. They may not be outright in the hatred but it is rather homophobic, just under the guise of religion.

lawnmower_man

Corkfeen wrote: »

Just that any homosexual acts will result in them being doomed to hell?(although masturbation is also a mortal sin :O ) Plus their constant claims of same sex marriage being an abomination . Ohhh and the claim that it's unnatural. They may not be outright in the hatred but it is rather homophobic, just under the guise of religion.

hold on , GAR it said the catholic church was in favour of the death penalty for gay people , thats different than preaching of hell as a punishment , they preach of hell as a punishment for many things , most of the major religons are opposed to homosexuality , the catholic church is in no way unique in this regard

can someone get this thread back on track

i wish to reiterate what i said earlier , if religon prevents some people from committing murder , that is a good thing

qrrgprgua

Corkfeen wrote: »

Just that any homosexual acts will result in them being doomed to hell?(although masturbation is also a mortal sin :O ) Plus their constant claims of same sex marriage being an abomination . Ohhh and the claim that it's unnatural. They may not be outright in the hatred but it is rather homophobic, just under the guise of religion.

Step back..

The Catholic Church's teaching on Human sexuality is not unique. If you label it homophobic.. then that is your point of view. Its teaching is about acts and its not targeting people. Marriage is between a Man and a Women.. it has been since there have been men and women.

There is nothing wrong with following our Religion.. we are free to do so.

shizz

lawnmower_man wrote: »

i wish to reiterate what i said earlier , if religon prevents some people from committing murder , that is a good thing

I would say more murders have taking place in the name of religion than it has prevented, but of course there is no way in measuring how many it has prevented.

Nodin

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Step back..

The Catholic Church's teaching on Human sexuality is not unique. .

...which means nothing.

qrrgprgua wrote: »

If you label it homophobic.. then that is your point of view. Its teaching is about acts and its not targeting people. Marriage is between a Man and a Women.. it has been since there have been men and women. .

"marriage"? In the Western sense, thats largely a creation of the middle ages.

Its been between a man and women indeed. More rarely its been between a woman and men. Quite often its been a fairly informal arrangement, with strict marital agreements only reached between political dynasties and wealthy powerful families.

Corkfeen

lawnmower_man wrote: »

hold on , GAR it said the catholic church was in favour of the death penalty for gay people , thats different than preaching of hell as a punishment , they preach of hell as a punishment for many things , most of the major religons are opposed to homosexuality , the catholic church is in no way unique in this regard

can someone get this thread back on track

i wish to reiterate what i said earlier , if religon prevents some people from committing murder , that is a good thing

Firstly, I wasn't responding to Gar, i'm not sure what he is referring to so i'll leave him to respond. The Catholic Church are openly intolerant of homosexuality and claims of it being immoral etc is not helping to make the world a more tolerant place. They essentially endorse homophobia by doing so. If they were claiming that all black people were doomed to hell would you view that to be acceptable as long as it stopped them from killing? That has cropped up in mainstreams religions btw.

If religion is preventing a person from murder, they are in dire need of getting psychological help. It's extremely disconcerting to think that the only thing preventing a person from murdering is religion. Also the likes of Sharia law etc is religion causing moral executions for 'crimes' so that doesn't exactly work in favour of religion.

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Step back..

The Catholic Church's teaching on Human sexuality is not unique. If you label it homophobic.. then that is your point of view. Its teaching is about acts and its not targeting people. Marriage is between a Man and a Women.. it has been since there have been men and women.

There is nothing wrong with following our Religion.. we are free to do so.

There is plenty wrong with your religion but I have no objection to you practising it. However it does not allow you to prevent equality. Same sex marriage should be readily available everywhere as it is a matter of equality, you have no reason whatsoever to prevent it. Yet for some reason, it is condemned regularly by the pope for example as the downfall of society and it is lobbied against by religious groups. Eventually the situation will change but the religious have slowed down the availability of these rights.

Nodin

qrrgprgua wrote: »

.................
There is nothing wrong with following our Religion.. we are free to do so.

Almost forgot - Nobody is stopping you from doing so. However, some followers of religion might perhaps return the favour when it comes to gay marriage, contraception and enforcing their morality on others.

qrrgprgua

Nodin wrote: »

...which means nothing.


"marriage"? In the Western sense, thats largely a creation of the middle ages.

Its been between a man and women indeed. More rarely its been between a woman and men. Quite often its been a fairly informal arrangement, with strict marital agreements only reached between political dynasties and wealthy powerful families.

Marriage is between men and Women. I am not taking about the legalities ..
Just the natural order. Man + women has kids = Family,.

qrrgprgua

Nodin wrote: »

Almost forgot - Nobody is stopping you from doing so. However, some followers of religion might perhaps return the favour when it comes to gay marriage, contraception and enforcing their morality on others.

We are not enforcing our morality on others. But if the question of changing our society it put to the people we have the right to vote yes or no...

Nodin

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Marriage is between men and Women. I am not taking about the legalities ..
Just the natural order.,.

A statement so vague as to be pointless.

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Man + women has kids = Family,.

So an infertile couple shouldn't marry?

qrrgprgua wrote: »

We are not enforcing our morality on others. But if the question of changing our society it put to the people we have the right to vote yes or no,.

...and by voting no, you'd be preventing others from living according to their beliefs, thus forcing your morality on others.

Corkfeen

qrrgprgua wrote: »

We are not enforcing our morality on others. But if the question of changing our society it put to the people we have the right to vote yes or no...

I actually don't agree with this in the slightest although I suspect it would pass. It should be a universal human right. If freedom of religion was illegal, do you think it should be decided by a democratic vote or should it supersede a democratic and be legalised immediately? There are some things that democracy fails at and should be an inherent right, not decided by the campaigning of groups who oppose it. Or would you happily accept it if freedom of religion was prevented as a result of the democratic process?

I understand that it would be difficult if not impossible to pass it without a referendum. But that doesn't mean I have to agree with the fact that it is dependent upon a majority vote .

coffee_cake

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Step back..

The Catholic Church's teaching on Human sexuality is not unique. If you label it homophobic.. then that is your point of view. Its teaching is about acts and its not targeting people. Marriage is between a Man and a Women.. it has been since there have been men and women.

There is nothing wrong with following our Religion.. we are free to do so.

maybe not

http://blog.themonastery.org/2011/06/did-the-early-church-perform-same-sex-weddings/

Pushtrak

lawnmower_man wrote: »

if it keeps some people from killing , then surely religon has some possitive effects ?

If the thin veneer of religion is what is stopping a person from committing a violent crime then that is a person we as a society should be worried about. Doesn't sound like a stable personality. In fact, I'd encourage such people to get help.

qrrgprgua wrote: »

The Catholic Church's teaching on Human sexuality is not unique. If you label it homophobic.. then that is your point of view.

Is it not your point of view? If not, what is to your mind homophobic?

Its teaching is about acts and its not targeting people. Marriage is between a Man and a Women.. it has been since there have been men and women.

Look up the history of marriage. Seriously. "One man, one woman" isn't the 'way its always been' at all.

There is nothing wrong with following our Religion.. we are free to do so.

There is nothing wrong with not following your religion too and people having the freedom not to be limited to the doctrines of your religion.

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Marriage is between men and Women. I am not taking about the legalities ..

What are you talking about if not the legalities? Some blessed by god, divine aspect is of no concern to I'd assume most in this conversation. It is all about those not of your religion having the freedom not to be restricted by the dictates of your fairy tales.

Just the natural order. Man + women has kids = Family,.

Infertile couple has already been brought up.

Natural? We are human, so anything humans do is natural. That's how it works. Natural... Natural disasters? Unnatural, I suppose you will refuse medical treatments on the grounds of them being "unnatural" will you? Natural is not a yardstick for good/desirable.

qrrgprgua wrote: »

We are not enforcing our morality on others. But if the question of changing our society it put to the people we have the right to vote yes or no...

If you vote against the rights of other people, what exactly do you think you are doing?

GarIT

Its a typical catholic thing to try to ignore quotes from their own texts without any evidence to support their opinions. I'm not going to go into loads of detail about it because you should be able to find it in my post history. Google confessionalist religion and read about it. You will find that if you disagree with any catholic teaching you are not a catholic no matter what you claim, no matter how many times you go to church if you use contraception you are just not catholic. If I stand outside I am just not in my house. There is no such thing as an a la carte, catholic because there not catholic because it is a confessionalist religion and you with believe everything or you don't.

The church claims that the bible is the word of god. The problem with this is god says that all homosexuals will go to hell forever. The bible says separately that homosexuals should be condemned to death. The problem with this is god can't be real and it cant be ok to be gay at the same time. If one is true the opposite has to be wrong.

The bible quotes god saying that it is wrong to be gay. Only 1 can be possible at the same time. If homosexuality is ok, then the bible cannot be the word of god. If the bible is the word of god it cannot be ok to be homosexual.

The church cant admit that it is ok to be gay because if they did that would be as bad to them as saying the bible is just fiction.

You want to stop talking about this because you know you are wrong and can't face it. To believe in god you have to believe that god hates homosexuals and hates people that support them. To believe in god but not hate homosexuals is even stupid, that means you believe in god, but you think what he says is wrong, it doesn't make sense.

You are going to keep denying this, if you weren't going to you couldn't claim to be catholic in the first place so there really is no point in arguing. But do google confessionalist religion and read the wiki it might make you realise what some of you claim to be members of.

GarIT

lawnmower_man wrote: »

so the institution of the catholic church is in favour of the death penalty for homosexuals , your mad , totally mad

Send a letter to the Vatican and ask. You only say I am mad because you have no defence or counter argument.

If they admit that homosexuality is wrong they admit that they are frauds, the church accepting homosexuality is them accepting the bible is not the word of god. If it is not the word of god the bible is only a guideline, if it is only a guideline the catholic religion is made up, the catholic religion depends on the bible being the word of god, its all they have left to cling to.

GarIT

If someone here believes in god can they please explain to me how you manage to disagree with the opinion of your creator in regards to homosexuality?

lawnmower_man

shizz wrote: »

I would say more murders have taking place in the name of religion than it has prevented, but of course there is no way in measuring how many it has prevented.

that is indeed very possible but is another arguement entirely , their are many decent god fearing people who abstain from committing violent acts due to fear of punishment when they die

lawnmower_man

GarIT wrote: »

Its a typical catholic thing to try to ignore quotes from their own texts without any evidence to support their opinions. I'm not going to go into loads of detail about it because you should be able to find it in my post history. Google confessionalist religion and read about it. You will find that if you disagree with any catholic teaching you are not a catholic no matter what you claim, no matter how many times you go to church if you use contraception you are just not catholic. If I stand outside I am just not in my house. There is no such thing as an a la carte, catholic because there not catholic because it is a confessionalist religion and you with believe everything or you don't.

The church claims that the bible is the word of god. The problem with this is god says that all homosexuals will go to hell forever. The bible says separately that homosexuals should be condemned to death. The problem with this is god can't be real and it cant be ok to be gay at the same time. If one is true the opposite has to be wrong.

The bible quotes god saying that it is wrong to be gay. Only 1 can be possible at the same time. If homosexuality is ok, then the bible cannot be the word of god. If the bible is the word of god it cannot be ok to be homosexual.

The church cant admit that it is ok to be gay because if they did that would be as bad to them as saying the bible is just fiction.

You want to stop talking about this because you know you are wrong and can't face it. To believe in god you have to believe that god hates homosexuals and hates people that support them. To believe in god but not hate homosexuals is even stupid, that means you believe in god, but you think what he says is wrong, it doesn't make sense.

You are going to keep denying this, if you weren't going to you couldn't claim to be catholic in the first place so there really is no point in arguing. But do google confessionalist religion and read the wiki it might make you realise what some of you claim to be members of.

with all your references to the bible , i think your confusing the catholic church with one of the many protestant churches which are much more bible orientated relativley speaking , the likes of the free presbyterian church in the north is far more anti gay than the catholic church btw , the catholic church is by comparison to the major religons of the world , relativley liberal and is by far the most socilist in terms of economics

anyway , you,ve already discredited yourself with that absurd statement about how the catholic church is in favour of the death penalty for the crime of bein gay