Our Gobberment isn't showing up to Work, + Public vs Private Sick Days

Stiffler2

Heard this on the radio yesterday. Average Sick days

Government officials, minisiters, td's / politicians avergaing 12 sick days pa
Public Sector, HSE, public transport etc averaging 7 sick days pa
Private Sector workers ( holding the country up ) - 3 sick days pa

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http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/185000-state-sick-days-cost-taxpayers-27m-199641.html

185,000 State sick days cost taxpayers €27m

By Stephen Rogers
Wednesday, July 04, 2012

More than 185,000 sick days were recorded across all government departments last year at a cost of €27m.

The biggest offender was Joan Burton’s Department of Social Protection, where 71,680 sick days were clocked up at a cost of more than €9m to the State.

Simon Coveney’s Department of Agriculture was next. It lost 30,796 days to sickness, which cost €4.6m.

The figures, released through parliamentary questions from Fine Gael TD Simon Harris, show the cost of a day lost to illness is much greater in some departments than in others.

For example, in the Department of Social Protection, each day of sick leave costs the State €129 per worker. In the Department of Communications, the cost was €181.

Only a few of the 14 departments questioned provided the "sick leave rate" among their staff.

Of those that did, the highest was in social protection, where the rate was 6.3%. In the Department of Health, the figure was 5.2%.

The latest figure for average sick leave across the public service is 4.9%, with workers missing about 11 days a year through absenteeism.

Mr Harris said that, at a time when the Government and the Irish people were scrutinising every cent of public expenditure, the figures he had obtained were "most worrying".

"Millions of euro in costs and close to 200,000 work days are being lost due to sick leave in government departments," he said.

"It is clearly high time that the question is asked: Are there cultural or institutional reasons for such a level of sick pay at such a cost in this area?"

In the private sector, he said, sick leave was managed because business could not afford not to manage it averagin 3 days pa compared to Government officials averaging 12 days pa & the public sector at 7 days pa

"That same incentive seems to be lacking in elements of the public sector. As a member of the [Dáil] Public Accounts Committee, I have seen this on many occasions in many government departments. The issue of sick leave and its cost now needs to be central to our discussions on bringing about real public sector reform.

"Clearly, sick leave entitlements are vitally important for people who fall ill and this is recognised, but such sick days cannot be seen as an automatic entitlement regardless of one’s wellbeing. They are there to be used when absolutely necessary and for no other reason."

Mr Harris said managers in government departments "need to start managing".

"A consistent approach across all of Government is required urgently," he said.

Public service management want to cut the cost of sick leave by 5%, or €25m, by the end of the year.

At present, staff can take up to seven paid uncertified (leave without a doctor’s certificate) sick days a year.

Most public servants on certified sick leave can receive full pay for up to six months in one year, and half pay thereafter, subject to a maximum of 12 months’ paid sick leave in any four-year period.

Unions say a blanket reduction in sick leave arrangements would not address any abuse of the system but would have a disastrous effect on those who have catastrophic or life-threatening illnesses.


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This just goes to show you how lazy the government officials are and the public sector v's the private sector.

Isn't it ironic that Joan Burtons SW office is the highest offender of sick days, Joan - you should be on the dole yourself, not managing it.

smash

Simple solution... reduce the amount of sick days and make a doctors note mandatory after 3 days.

FatherLen

smash wrote: »

make a doctors note mandatory after 3 days.

does this not apply already?

stargazer 68

FatherLen wrote: »

does this not apply already?

Yes it does. And if you are sick on a friday or monday you have to have one too!

smash

FatherLen wrote: »

does this not apply already?

No.

Dovies wrote: »

Yes it does. And if you are sick on a friday or monday you have to have one too!

Not what was said yesterday. You can be off 7 days without one and are entitled to 11 days yearly according to their contracts.

Even TD's were saying that they consider these days as extra holidays and they hear people talking about the amount of sick days they have left to take.

stargazer 68

smash wrote: »

No.

Not what was said yesterday. You can be off 7 days without one and are entitled to 11 days yearly according to their contracts.

Obviously not in all departments/offices then!

smash

Dovies wrote: »

Obviously not in all departments/offices then!

You can find the radio piece here http://www.todayfm.com/Shows/Weekdays/Matt-Cooper/listen.aspx

the purple tin

smash wrote: »

No.

Not what was said yesterday. You can be off 7 days without one and are entitled to 11 days yearly according to their contracts.

Even TD's were saying that they consider these days as extra holidays and they hear people talking about the amount of sick days they have left to take.

Irish TD is the sweetest job around.
Tailor made for greedy, lazy, hypocritical bastards.

stargazer 68

smash wrote: »

You can find the radio piece here http://www.todayfm.com/Shows/Weekdays/Matt-Cooper/listen.aspx

I know what the article says however, as I said not in all depts. We have to provide a doctors letter after 3 days off sick and that includes if its a fri or a mon even though we dont work sat or sun.

Helix

smash wrote: »

No.

Not what was said yesterday. You can be off 7 days without one and are entitled to 11 days yearly according to their contracts.

Even TD's were saying that they consider these days as extra holidays and they hear people talking about the amount of sick days they have left to take.

when i was in the civil service between 2006 and 2009 it was 2 days maximum without a doctors note, anything extra needed the note, which applied across the board to the regular joes - perhaps it was different when you hit a certain pay grade, but the higher up people were rarely out sick

smash

The specific departments were mentioned with all the stats to back it up, and it was clearly pointed out that the study didn't include Nurses, Gardai etc. It was all office workers. it was good to hear a couple of TD's wanting it sorted out.

Ray Palmer

2 days requires a note as does Friday or Monday. There maybe some department where different rules apply but that is the standard.

RobbieTheRobber

smash wrote: »

The specific departments were mentioned with all the stats to back it up, and it was clearly pointed out that the study didn't include Nurses, Gardai etc. It was all office workers. it was good to hear a couple of TD's wanting it sorted out.

Can you link me to these stats?


Here is the circular which applies to all civil servants in regard to sick leave maybe you should read it http://per.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/Circular-9-2010.pdf

smash

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Can you link me to these stats?


Here is the circular which applies to all civil servants in regard to sick leave maybe you should read it http://per.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/Circular-9-2010.pdf

2010... good resource.

listen to the show, they'll tell you where you can get them.

Stiffler2

smash wrote: »

The specific departments were mentioned with all the stats to back it up, and it was clearly pointed out that the study didn't include Nurses, Gardai etc. It was all office workers. it was good to hear a couple of TD's wanting it sorted out.

Smash - you obviously heard this as well, it's disgraceful

they talk about sick days as extra holidays.

In the private sector it works like goldilox and the 3 bears

1 day is too obvious
3 days you need a sick cert from a doc
2 days is just right, doesn't look too obvious, and you don't need a cert

Public sector & government td's though are taking the piss, then again what's new...

martingriff

smash wrote: »

No.

Not what was said yesterday. You can be off 7 days without one and are entitled to 11 days yearly according to their contracts.

Even TD's were saying that they consider these days as extra holidays and they hear people talking about the amount of sick days they have left to take.

Well what I think it meant to say as I know its the same in most civil service jobs is you can take up to 7 uncertified days in a year however if you have 3 or more days taken together you need a cert. But thiss is a bit unclear ass while it says this about sick days and uncertified the limit you can take in a 4 year period is 43. Of course if you are sick you have to take sick leave but you do get a letter in relation to your days which my effect promotion or transfer to other department. I do know people who this has happened to

RobbieTheRobber

smash wrote: »

2010... good resource.

listen to the show, they'll tell you where you can get them.

What???

That department of Finance circular was issued in 2010 it is still the valid correct circular in regard to sick leave so im not sure what your response is suppossed to mean!

RobbieTheRobber

Stiffler2 wrote: »

Smash - you obviously heard this as well, it's disgraceful

they talk about sick days as extra holidays.

In the private sector it works like goldilox and the 3 bears

1 day is too obvious
3 days you need a sick cert from a doc
2 days is just right, doesn't look too obvious, and you don't need a cert

Public sector & government td's though are taking the piss, then again what's new...

No it doesnt you are wrong, I know this one guy bla bla bla bla etc etc etc :rolleyes::rolleyes:

BraziliaNZ

Stiffler2 wrote: »

Smash - you obviously heard this as well, it's disgraceful

they talk about sick days as extra holidays.

In the private sector it works like goldilox and the 3 bears

1 day is too obvious
3 days you need a sick cert from a doc
2 days is just right, doesn't look too obvious, and you don't need a cert

Public sector & government td's though are taking the piss, then again what's new...

People take the piss everywhere. I left the public sector last year, now I piss around in a job that pays more, doing far less, and surfing the internet and watching youtube all day, and posting on boards, while doing the odd bit of work here and there. I've also had more sick days, due to hangovers, than I ever had in the civil service.
People will never be happy with the civil service.

cursai

I used to comment on these ignorant Irish Indo style ps bashing threads. But now i see that people will convince themselves of anything.

BraziliaNZ

I do miss flexi time though

JohnMarston

Uncertified sick leave = Unable to face work today.

Make work less unappealing and i'll show up unless i'm genuinely sick

stmol32

Good article here should clear up all the misunderstanding on this thread.

http://www.thejournal.ie/explainer-how-much-sick-leave-can-civil-servants-take-509370-Jul2012/

RHarrow

Simon Harris is doing a fantastic job and quite a few of the other TDs in the Dail, who have multiple times his experience and are multiple times his age, could really learn a lesson from him.

The public sector sick leave is a fiasco and I'm glad to see it finally being highlighted in the Dail.

smash

stmol32 wrote: »

Good article here should clear up all the misunderstanding on this thread.

http://www.thejournal.ie/explainer-how-much-sick-leave-can-civil-servants-take-509370-Jul2012/

Clears up a few things. I was wrong about the 7 consecutive days anyway.

golden lane

BraziliaNZ wrote: »

People take the piss everywhere. I left the public sector last year, now I piss around in a job that pays more, doing far less, and surfing the internet and watching youtube all day, and posting on boards, while doing the odd bit of work here and there. I've also had more sick days, due to hangovers, than I ever had in the civil service.
People will never be happy with the civil service.

people are paying for the civil service............that, if it has not got into your head....is the difference....

BraziliaNZ

golden lane wrote: »

people are paying for the civil service............that, if it has not got into your head....is the difference....

Yeah but employees don't really give a f*ck who's paying their wages

ixoy

I work with civil servants and in this department it's a sick note after 3 days and, as above, a Friday/Monday would make it 3-days as that's seen as a weekend.
I've seen the piss taken in other areas - hours at the desk, productivity - but not sick days.

the groutch

stmol32 wrote: »

Good article here should clear up all the misunderstanding on this thread.

http://www.thejournal.ie/explainer-how-much-sick-leave-can-civil-servants-take-509370-Jul2012/

If employees have a medical certificate, they can receive full pay for the first six months they are off sick. After this their pay is reduced to half.

WTF???

RobbieTheRobber

golden lane wrote: »

people are paying for the civil service............that, if it has not got into your head....is the difference....

While we are talking about sick leave this is also worth noting.
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/leave_and_holidays/sick_leave.html

BraziliaNZ

the groutch wrote: »

WTF???

So someone has cancer or loses a leg in a motorbike accident. Are you suggesting you just cut off their wages?

MagicSean

smash wrote: »

No.

Not what was said yesterday. You can be off 7 days without one and are entitled to 11 days yearly according to their contracts.

Even TD's were saying that they consider these days as extra holidays and they hear people talking about the amount of sick days they have left to take.

Not seven days in a row. Seven individual days throughout the year.

smash

MagicSean wrote: »

Not seven days in a row. Seven individual days throughout the year.

read 7 posts up.

Larbre34

Ah yes, the usual he said-she said Public Sector bashing rolls around every second week for another innings.

You can argue the toss about 2 days or 3, flexi time on not, good pension or bad

Whats at the back of all this, however, is that people who were too blind, too superior or too stupid to consider a public sector position when the doors were wide open in the good times, are now bitter and twisted that those that did are managing to keep their heads above water.

I recruited for various professional grades in the Public Sector for many years. In 2005/6 I worked with a public body to try and attract professionals in a certain field to work in project management and support roles. The contracts were permanent, the salaries ranged 60-85k.

The competition had to be advertised no less than 3 times. A short panel was eventually formed, but when calling the candidates they all refused the rolls. Even phonecalls from the senior public servant in charge to them trying to convince them about the value of the permanent and pensionable side of the contracts were met with scoffs - "I can earn 40% more working in on contract in the Middle East etc". The project was eventually shelved for a time through lack of staff to run it

My point is, if blind greed, or pride, or a condensending attitude prevented people from taking up what was freely available to all to apply for, and they now envy those that now occupy those jobs, then tough fu**ing sh*t......

smash

Larbre34 wrote: »

Ah yes, the usual he said-she said Public Sector bashing

You realise all this was raised by TD's because it's fact and it's costing a fortune!

RobbieTheRobber

smash wrote: »

You realise all this was raised by TD's because it's fact and it's costing a fortune!

Oh well sure aren't TD's infallible and never tell lies or use spin.

Can I ask why are you people posting on boards shouldn't you all be doing what Leo told you to and taking holidays with all your stored up cash.
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/budget/budget-2012-take-a-holiday-its-not-all-bad-leo-varadkar-2950954.html

MagicSean

smash wrote: »

read 7 posts up.

You said you were wrong, you didn't say why. I thought it should be pointed out for other people as uninformed as you.

Whats at the back of all this, however, is that people who were too blind, too superior or too stupid to consider a public sector position when the doors were wide open in the good times, are now bitter and twisted that those that did are managing to keep their heads above water.

yeah you got us, we're angry about the country's deficit which has us in trouble but really underneath we're all too stupid and jealous
good work

hondasam

Everyone knows the system is or has been abused in the past and it probably still happens in some dept.
It's a cert after three days but 7 days uncertified was the norm in the past but not now.
I have never abused the sick days I have enough holidays in the year without taking sick days.

twowheelsonly

RHarrow wrote: »

Simon Harris is doing a fantastic job and quite a few of the other TDs in the Dail, who have multiple times his experience and are multiple times his age, could really learn a lesson from him.

The public sector sick leave is a fiasco and I'm glad to see it finally being highlighted in the Dail.

You're right. It is a fiasco. I work shift work in the Public Service, basically I'm due on 7 days in every 14 (Varying hours etc..) I'm on Mon, Tues, Off Weds Thurs, On Fri, Sat, Sun, and it alternates week to week - i.e. I'll be on/off every second weekend.
If I break my leg tomorrow and I'm off for 6 weeks I'll miss 21 days of work. However my sick record will show 42 days as days off are counted as well. My brother in the Private sector will only have the actual days he took sick counted against him.

smash wrote: »

You realise all this was raised by TD's because it's fact and it's costing a fortune!

As above... but.. (There's always a but!!) If I take an uncertified sick day tomorrow I'm not replaced so there's no actual extra physical cost IMO. I get paid for it, as I'm sure do most people, but only up to the point where I'm found to be abusing the system at which stage I don't get paid for an indeterminate period.

Birroc

I worked in a council once and when I lamented that I had no vacation days to take at Xmas, my manager said "how many sick-days have you left?".
I kid you not. I had taken none so far that year so I subsequently took 3 sick-days. No questions asked.

smash

MagicSean wrote: »

You said you were wrong, you didn't say why. I thought it should be pointed out for other people as uninformed as you.

Can you read?

smash wrote: »

Clears up a few things. I was wrong about the 7 consecutive days anyway.

monkeypants

smash wrote: »

You realise all this was raised by TD's because it's fact and it's costing a fortune!

This was raised by a TD as a distraction. Ask yourself, what are the TDs doing?

Birroc

Larbre34 wrote: »

I recruited for various professional grades in the Public Sector for many years. In 2005/6 I worked with a public body to try and attract professionals in a certain field to work in project management and support roles. The contracts were permanent, the salaries ranged 60-85k.

The competition had to be advertised no less than 3 times. A short panel was eventually formed, but when calling the candidates they all refused the rolls. Even phonecalls from the senior public servant in charge to them trying to convince them about the value of the permanent and pensionable side of the contracts were met with scoffs - "I can earn 40% more working in on contract in the Middle East etc". The project was eventually shelved for a time through lack of staff to run it

I think this is bull****. Most PMs in private sector are were on 60-70k even during the boom years and would have snapped your hand off for a similar paying job in the 'soft' public sector.

Birroc

monkeypants wrote: »

This was raised by a TD as a distraction. Ask yourself, what are the TDs doing?

The usual answer is
a) Nothing
b) Creaming on expenses and looking forward to a huge pension.
c) Talking crap

Birroc

BraziliaNZ wrote: »

People take the piss everywhere. I left the public sector last year, now I piss around in a job that pays more, doing far less, and surfing the internet and watching youtube all day, and posting on boards, while doing the odd bit of work here and there. I've also had more sick days, due to hangovers, than I ever had in the civil service.
People will never be happy with the civil service.

Are you proud of that? I doubt you're the norm.
Facts show that private sector sick days half that of public sector.

christmas2012

if that was in a company - 12 days sick day - youd be fired.

it should be no different in the dail..

cursai

One problem with these figures. The sick day figures in the public sector are public knowledge and IM sure are accessed pretty easily as all departments would have to account accurately such is the bureaucracy with the PS.
How on earth are the private sector figures supposed to be legit. Are we supposed to believe that every company from the most modest shop to the largest international company are supplying the Irish government with wholly accurate figures.
Hogwash.

hondasam

Birroc wrote: »

Are you proud of that? I doubt you're the norm.
Facts show that private sector sick days half that of public sector.

If the private sector were paid sick days they would abuse them too. I know a few who do get paid and boy do they abuse it.
Private sector workers are no different than public service workers.

twowheelsonly

Birroc wrote: »

Are you proud of that? I doubt you're the norm.
Facts show that private sector sick days half that of public sector.

See my earlier post about this...

If I break my leg tomorrow and I'm off for 6 weeks I'll miss 21 days of work. However my sick record will show 42 days as days off are counted as well. My brother in the Private sector will only have the actual days he took sick counted against him.

hondasam

christmas2012 wrote: »

if that was in a company - 12 days sick day - youd be fired.

it should be no different in the dail..

Fired for what? because you are sick, not gonna happen in any job.