Will (New) Teachers Pay Ever Rise Again?

dillo2k10

Hi,

I have always wanted to become a teacher but every year they just seem to be cutting the pay of new teachers.

Do yous think that the pay of NQT's will ever rise again. Two years ago the starting salary was over €40k and now two years later its just €27k. Will this continue to last like this? If it does Im starting to consider other careers, as much as I would love to teach I just dont think I could afford it.

I dont think someone who has a honours degree, a masters degree and PDE should be earning such a low wage for the same amount of work that teachers who started a few years prior are earning a lot more for.

So is the government likely to ever increase the pay of teachers?

RedXIV

dillo2k10 wrote: »

Hi,

I have always wanted to become a teacher but every year they just seem to be cutting the pay of new teachers.

Do yous think that the pay of NQT's will ever rise again. Two years ago the starting salary was over €40k and now two years later its just €27k. Will this continue to last like this? If it does Im starting to consider other careers, as much as I would love to teach I just dont think I could afford it.

I dont think someone who has a honours degree, a masters degree and PDE should be earning such a low wage for the same amount of work that teachers who started a few years prior are earning a lot more for.

So is the government likely to ever increase the pay of teachers?

27K is hardly a bad wage for someone newly qualified? Not saying its fantastic or anything but no one is walking into 40k+ roles straight out of education these days?

dillo2k10

RedXIV wrote: »

27K is hardly a bad wage for someone newly qualified? Not saying its fantastic or anything but no one is walking into 40k+ roles straight out of education these days?

But when I finish University I wont even get a teaching job at first, I could be waiting over 5 years before I finally get a permanent position, before then I will be working for much much less. I will have to be working 11 years before I get to the €40k that others would have started out on. So I would be in my late 30's/40's before I could even afford a mortgage or real car.

I know that most other jobs will also have a low starting pay, but they will usually get a job much faster and have an increased pay much faster.

RedXIV

dillo2k10 wrote: »

But when I finish University I wont even get a teaching job at first, I could be waiting over 5 years before I finally get a permanent position, before then I will be working for much much less. I will have to be working 11 years before I get to the €40k that others would have started out on. So I would be in my late 30's/40's before I could even afford a mortgage or real car.

I know that most other jobs will also have a low starting pay, but they will usually get a job much faster and have an increased pay much faster.

True but most other jobs don't get the summer holidays either I think that it will be a long time before you'll get back to €40k starting pay, not trying to rile you up, but just looking at the facts. We've a massive public wage bill and the recession is starting to knock prices down on most things meaning that the need for the high wages of the boom is no longer as necessary. I know it must seem very unfair to someone starting out, and I do feel sympathetic towards the crowd that have lost out on this, but on the same token, I was offered a job on 21K out of college and was told i was on good money. I agree that I'll probably hit the €40K mark in less than 11 years but you have the advantages of longer holidays as well as permanent job once you actually secure it. There is good and bad there, and again I do think you've come into it at an unlucky time but thats just my 2c

Feeona

RedXIV wrote: »

but you have the advantages of longer holidays as well

If the OP works as a substitute teacher though he/she won't get holiday pay, which is another thing to bear in mind!

EDIT : And OP, government will increase teachers pay at some stage. When the country comes right again it will happen, but it will probably lag behind private wages for two/three years before it catches up. Are you studying to become a teacher at the min?

Powerhouse

RedXIV wrote: »

1) the recession is starting to knock prices down on most things

2) you have the advantages of longer holidays

1) Is it? Not sure what things you mean. The price of petrol has more or less doubled in the last couple of years anyway.

2) It is important not to exaggerate this. There's little point in telling your bank manager or landlord that you have three months off if you are getting half-salary.

golden lane

the past wages of teachers etc....were based on a false economy....that is now righting itself...

Powerhouse

dillo2k10 wrote: »

I dont think someone who has a honours degree, a masters degree and PDE should be earning such a low wage for the same amount of work that teachers who started a few years prior are earning a lot more for.

I really think it's best to consider a salary in absolute terms rather than in the relative context of some salary scale of a few years ago which is now notional. Otherwise you'll wreck your head. Anyway, the real issue which many people outside teaching don't realise is that you will, if you are lucky, most likely have 'hours' rather than a job in the sense that the term is generally understood.

Many of the €40k brigade of a few years ago never saw the colour of that money, as they were never on full hours. There are quite a few issues about teaching to reconcile in your own mind before lamenting a salary which is now consigned to the pages of history.

johnc12

Feeona wrote: »

EDIT : And OP, government will increase teachers pay at some stage. When the country comes right again it will happen, but it will probably lag behind private wages for two/three years before it catches up. Are you studying to become a teacher at the min?

Im only going into second year of my degree. It was always my plan to get a good degree result do a masters and then the PDE.

Now though Im starting to look at other possibilitys, mainly accounting. I think I would eventually leave it and go into teaching, I dont really know I might get trapped in accounting as the longer I stay the higher my salary and the bigger the drop when I move to teaching. And I know accountants are not paid very well at the start but they dont have to pay for their own training and they have bigger salaries faster.

seavill

To be honest for me its as simple as this, if you really want to be a teacher you will go into teaching, salary, holidays etc are all irrelevant.

If someone is going into teaching for the salary they won't last long tbh.

I decided when I was in school I wanted to be a teacher and to be 100% honest I never once looked up the pay until I finished college.

If I was to be back in school now and would graduate in 4 or 5 years on the lower salary scale I would still go into teaching. It's what I love doing I would not want to do anything else.

As far as I'm concerned you do what you really want to do, if you really love it you will survive on the money. Its not easy, **** hours bits of a salary but you either want to teach or you don't. Doing something that you really not 100% into you will never be 100% happy with your decision.

Feeona

johnc12 wrote: »

Im only going into second year of my degree. It was always my plan to get a good degree result do a masters and then the PDE.

Now though Im starting to look at other possibilitys, mainly accounting. I think I would eventually leave it and go into teaching, I dont really know I might get trapped in accounting as the longer I stay the higher my salary and the bigger the drop when I move to teaching. And I know accountants are not paid very well at the start but they dont have to pay for their own training and they have bigger salaries faster.

how about doing subjects that would be transferable to teaching (i.e. recognised by the Teaching Council). You'd be covering a few bases then, and you won't be restricting yourself to 'only teaching' or 'only accounting'.

And here's hoping that by the time you leave college, things in this country will be on the mend! Best place to be during a recession is college I reckon.

RealJohn

I'm not sure where this €40grand figure is coming from. When I started teaching, during the boom, I had an honours degree, an honours h.dip and I was teaching in a Gaelcholáiste on full hours and I wasn't on 40 grand. A masters wouldn't have pushed me up there either.

My classmates who went on to do masters/Ph.Ds would have been delighted to start on 27k too because very few (if any) of them did (though the point on moving up the pay scale quicker than a teacher is valid).

Anyway, as others pointed out, if you're going into teaching for the money you're setting yourself up for a fall. Also, if you're that worried about the money and are so confident of doing a good degree, forget the masters. The extra money you (might, depending on this "allowances" business) get over an honours degree isn't worth the time compared to the extra points on the scale you'll get for going into teaching earlier. You can always do the masters at a later date.

monkeypants

Plenty of people with degrees earning considerably less than €25k right now. They have to work longer hours than teachers too.

dillo2k10

johnc12 wrote: »

Im only going into second year of my degree. It was always my plan to get a good degree result do a masters and then the PDE.

Now though Im starting to look at other possibilitys, mainly accounting. I think I would eventually leave it and go into teaching, I dont really know I might get trapped in accounting as the longer I stay the higher my salary and the bigger the drop when I move to teaching. And I know accountants are not paid very well at the start but they dont have to pay for their own training and they have bigger salaries faster.

Thats pretty much the same situation Im in.

seavill wrote: »

To be honest for me its as simple as this, if you really want to be a teacher you will go into teaching, salary, holidays etc are all irrelevant.

If someone is going into teaching for the salary they won't last long tbh.

I decided when I was in school I wanted to be a teacher and to be 100% honest I never once looked up the pay until I finished college.

If I was to be back in school now and would graduate in 4 or 5 years on the lower salary scale I would still go into teaching. It's what I love doing I would not want to do anything else.

As far as I'm concerned you do what you really want to do, if you really love it you will survive on the money. Its not easy, **** hours bits of a salary but you either want to teach or you don't. Doing something that you really not 100% into you will never be 100% happy with your decision.

I really do want to go into teaching, always have, but theres only so much that I can put up with financially. Im certainly not doing it to get a great salary but it does have to be considered. I like accounting too and its my second option.

I was never really bothered about the salary, when I was in secondary school the teachers seemed to be pretty comfortable - but not greatly paid, but now new teachers in my old school arent so lucky and I just dont think I could live like that.

It will be much easier for me to get a job and I will actually get paid decent for it - although with a lot more hours.

Feeona wrote: »

how about doing subjects that would be transferable to teaching (i.e. recognised by the Teaching Council). You'd be covering a few bases then, and you won't be restricting yourself to 'only teaching' or 'only accounting'.

And here's hoping that by the time you leave college, things in this country will be on the mend! Best place to be during a recession is college I reckon.

I'm doing Finance and Economics with a minor in Geography - That would allow me to teach business, accountancy, economics and geography - but also give me a good footing for accounting if thats what I need to do. I can always go back to teaching.

RealJohn wrote: »

Anyway, as others pointed out, if you're going into teaching for the money you're setting yourself up for a fall. Also, if you're that worried about the money and are so confident of doing a good degree, forget the masters. The extra money you (might, depending on this "allowances" business) get over an honours degree isn't worth the time compared to the extra points on the scale you'll get for going into teaching earlier. You can always do the masters at a later date.

I have no choice to do a masters. As my degree is considered a "business" degree by the teaching council I will not be accepted into the PDE without a masters.

One of the other reasons accounting might be good for me is because I cant really afford the masters or the PDE. Which ever accounting firm I get into will pay for me to become a chartered accountant and pay me while doing it. If accounting doesn't work out then the experience I got will allow me to do the PDE without a masters and so will be more affordable.

I dont really know what Im going to do. Id love to teach but I cant afford it.

Chris68

dillo2k10 wrote: »

I'm doing Finance and Economics with a minor in Geography - That would allow me to teach business, accountancy, economics and geography

You might want to check this. You need to spend a third of your degree on a subject to have it recognised. Which implies max 3 subjects.

Moody_mona

dillo2k10 wrote: »

I'm doing Finance and Economics with a minor in Geography - That would allow me to teach business, accountancy, economics and geography - but also give me a good footing for accounting if thats what I need to do. I can always go back to teaching.

Are you absolutely sure? Have you counted the credits? Normally teachers have two subjects, dont think I've ever met one qualified in four from one degree.

dillo2k10

Yes see here:
http://admissions.nuim.ie/teaching/

About half way down - MH401 - Finance & Economics (Major/Minor)

MH401 Finance & Economics Approved to teach Accounting, Business, Economics
Finance & Economics (Major/Minor) Approved to teach Accounting, Business, Economics & other (teaching) subject taken as a minor

Chris68

Take care with lists like these. The Teaching Council doesn't adhere to them. They are also in the process of changing requirements for individual subjects. So a degree that might have been sufficient in the past may no longer be.

Moody_mona

Have you a choice of modules at any point? The number of credits you do in each subject dictates your teaching subject. It's most likely that the websites lists those subjects as possible outcomes rather than what every graduate can teach.

christmas2012

in recessionary ireland where organisations can use the excuse of were in a recession?

dillo2k10

Yes I have a choice of some modules in next year. I have already contacted the careers office at NUIM to find out if there are any specific modules I must take. They haven't gotten back to me yet though.

I remember when I was in 6th year though I contacted both NUIM and the teaching council and they confirmed that it was correct.

dillo2k10

christmas2012 wrote: »

in recessionary ireland where organisations can use the excuse of were in a recession?

Im not really sure what you mean?

dillo2k10

I think you are correct. I may have to drop one of them. Im not sure. There is no business modules in my course but yet it is listed on the teaching council website too.

Will have to check it out.

Moody_mona

I didnt do the course and I dont know the ins and outs, I'm just warning that when everything is up in the air and you're choosing between careers, to make sure you're fully informed of the teaching option. I doubt you can teach all four, and I would hate someone to find that out too late and have their subjects and employment prospectives dashed. If you're happy that you've properly researched then that's all you can do.

seavill

dillo2k10 wrote: »

I really do want to go into teaching, always have, but theres only so much that I can put up with financially. Im certainly not doing it to get a great salary but it does have to be considered. I like accounting too and its my second option.

I was never really bothered about the salary, when I was in secondary school the teachers seemed to be pretty comfortable - but not greatly paid, but now new teachers in my old school arent so lucky and I just dont think I could live like that.

More than likely for the first few years you wont be anywhere near 27 grand either way as so many hours are being split between people nowadays.

The reality is whoever you are you will live within your means. If you are someone who has earned 50,000 for years and now earns 30 grand that is a big adjustment, for someone only coming out of college if all you have known is 27,000 that is what you will be used to living with so that is what you will get on with.

Yes earning a nice salary is great in any job and the prospects of that is a nice thing to look forward to however teachers don't live in mansions never have never will they generally live modest lives (unless they have a fantastic sideline), its like anything in life as I said you will always learn to live within your means.

My view if you want to do something you will do it irrelevant of anything else.

the_syco

Powerhouse wrote: »

1) Is it? Not sure what things you mean. The price of petrol has more or less doubled in the last couple of years anyway.

Blame the Saudis (the ones that control the output of petrol, anyhoos), the Iraq war, and what's happening in Libya and Syria, etc, for the petrol prices. It's a finite resource, located in places that have lots of extremists and wars.

seavill wrote: »

To be honest for me its as simple as this, if you really want to be a teacher you will go into teaching, salary, holidays etc are all irrelevant.

If someone is going into teaching for the salary they won't last long tbh.

Agreed 100%

dillo2k10 wrote: »

but now new teachers in my old school arent so lucky and I just dont think I could live like that.

I'm guessing that this would be because they're not permanent teachers? This would cause a loss of earning, and IIRC, this has always been a problem.

/edit
Can't see teacher salarys going up any time soon. If anything, I can see class sizes increasing, teacher positions not being refilled when one retires, all under the "it's a recession lads, have to keep costs down" soundbite.

Powerhouse

the_syco wrote: »

Blame the Saudis (the ones that control the output of petrol, anyhoos), the Iraq war, and what's happening in Libya and Syria, etc, for the petrol prices. It's a finite resource, located in places that have lots of extremists and wars.

I was simply making the point, not looking to apportion blame or cause.

Powerhouse

the_syco wrote: »

I'm guessing that this would be because they're not permanent teachers?

It's irrelevant what status a new teacher has - even if they are permanent they are still operaring from a severely reduced starting salary compared to what would have been their experience had they started a few years back.

coolperson05

I do think the problem for secondary is not salary but hours. Back in the day (pre Teaching Council) an honours degree qualified you to teach any subject to Junior Cert level. Particularly if you had more than one subject in your degree. Now you're limited to one or two at best...it's very hard for schools to find 22 hours in one subject for a teacher. And equally hard for teachers to sort out financial situations with 3-4 years minimum of irregular hours, not counting the 1/4 of the year not being paid their salary...the sooner a B.Ed. course for secondary comes in combining arts subjects and the PDE, the better...

newjobman

I can’t see teaching salaries rising anytime soon, for a number of reasons one being supply and demand and the second being the ‘I’m arlight jack’ attitude of the trade unions to newcomers to teaching.
Croke Park was about protecting the status quo, in return for safeguarding people in the system the government knew they had a good chunk of people who’d vote yes to the likes of Lisbon Treaty etc.
In return, younger teachers have been screwed and will continue to be so, there’ll be jobs for them alright, in the UK and abroad. The cut from 40k to 27k was shocking, and even more shocking is the fact that the teaching unions and people in permanent jobs turned a blind eye. Me Fein is very much alive it seems.
People who suggest ‘if you want to become a teacher, you’ll do it anyhow’ are not living in the real world. If you attain a level of education and expertise you will expect a reasonable wage coupled with some sense of security, job wise. Unless mammy and daddy are going to bankroll you for life, income and salary does matter.
The reality is teachers will be earning in fact 13k or so a year as they’ll be doing half hours etc, while expected to be available for work, contributing to the school etc. So in some cases it’s a 40k to 13k drop in a couple of budgets, and yet there’s no action from the unions.
What really might put the cat among the pigeons would be some sort of economic meltdown which would affect public finances to the extent that they couldn’t pay wages etc, in that case teaching working 20/30 years would be really hit. Then, middle Ireland might wake up, and the unions might actually act.
In the meantime I can’t see that happening though and in the meantime, thanks to the likes of Croke Park, those in the net will be protected, while young teachers will emigrate.
One generation has been bought, and another sold. Great little country.

Powerhouse

newjobman wrote: »

1) Croke Park was about protecting the status quo, in return for safeguarding people in the system the government knew they had a good chunk of people who’d vote yes to the likes of Lisbon Treaty etc.

2) In return, younger teachers have been screwed and will continue to be so, there’ll be jobs for them alright, in the UK and abroad. The cut from 40k to 27k was shocking, and even more shocking is the fact that the teaching unions and people in permanent jobs turned a blind eye. Me Fein is very much alive it seems.

3) The reality is teachers will be earning in fact 13k or so a year as they’ll be doing half hours etc, while expected to be available for work, contributing to the school etc. So in some cases it’s a 40k to 13k drop in a couple of budgets, and yet there’s no action from the unions.

4) What really might put the cat among the pigeons would be some sort of economic meltdown which would affect public finances to the extent that they couldn’t pay wages etc, in that case teaching working 20/30 years would be really hit. Then, middle Ireland might wake up, and the unions might actually act.

5) In the meantime I can’t see that happening though and in the meantime, thanks to the likes of Croke Park, those in the net will be protected, while young teachers will emigrate.
One generation has been bought, and another sold. Great little country.

This is a nice little representation of a variety of quite misguided views that are out there among young teachers, and it's no harm to deal with them now.

1) "Croke Park was about protecting the status quo" - have you considered the alternative? Myth: if all teacher salaries were reduced by x euros, then y number of new teachers could be employed. Reality: teacher salaries have been slashed significantly one way or t'other (and this includes those abominable permanent teachers too by the way) in recent years but teacher numbers have reduced not increased or stayed the same. Not a single extra teacher would be employed if wages were cut.

2) What precisely do you expect permanent teachers to do about this? They couldn't stop even their own salaries being cut. What are they to do about starting salaries being cut?

3) Do you not think this has been happening to teachers for years? The idea that someone is working 13/14 hours is not new. It is not part of the grand conspiracy against new teachers. Some of the 'permanent pensionable teachers with huge salaries' that the public/media/new teachers talk about are on 2/3rds salary too. They don't always wear a placard around their necks telling people.

4) So in a doomsday scenario and the country has no money to pay anybody...the unions will wake up and do exactly what? The unions are at their most powerful when money is plentiful. In such a scenario it would be irrelevant whether they woke up or not. Be very careful what you wish for.

5) Yes, teachers might have to emigrate. People generally have to emigrate. That's terrible at one level. On the other hand this is a generation that got its under-graduate fees paid for it and will go overseas with a qualification and an education, and will be able to come home fairly regularly should they choose to do so. This has not always been the case. There are worse things, and there are people far worse off.

Powerhouse

coolperson05 wrote: »

I do think the problem for secondary is not salary but hours. Back in the day (pre Teaching Council) an honours degree qualified you to teach any subject to Junior Cert level. Particularly if you had more than one subject in your degree. Now you're limited to one or two at best...it's very hard for schools to find 22 hours in one subject for a teacher. And equally hard for teachers to sort out financial situations with 3-4 years minimum of irregular hours, not counting the 1/4 of the year not being paid their salary...the sooner a B.Ed. course for secondary comes in combining arts subjects and the PDE, the better...

One of the reasons that teaching is over-subscribed is that barriers to entry have been virtually non-existent - the course has been attractively short, and there has been no advice about ludicrously unsuitable subject choices which will inevitably lead to employment problems and artificially inflate the ranks of the over-subscribed.

Such a course (as suggested in bold) might address that. It's not clear why it's needed when someone can take an Arts degree and then do the PDE. All people need to do is exercised a little cop-on and judgement regarding their prospects and not do their degree in Geography and Latin and then bear a grudge because the 'unions' have wrecked their career prospects.

newjobman

This is a nice little representation of a variety of quite misguided views that are out there among young teachers, and it's no harm to deal with them now.

1) "Croke Park was about protecting the status quo" - have you considered the alternative? Myth: if all teacher salaries were reduced by x euros, then y number of new teachers could be employed. Reality: teacher salaries have been slashed significantly one way or t'other (and this includes those abominable permanent teachers too by the way) in recent years but teacher numbers have reduced not increased or stayed the same. Not a single extra teacher would be employed if wages were cut.

Again, cuts to existing v new teachers aren't comparable. If the cuts had of been broader then you would have had greater opposition to cuts from more people, but the unions fell for the government ploy of divide and conquer. People of my generation have been let down by the unions, and the likelihood of them ever getting involved is pretty slim now.

2) What precisely do you expect permanent teachers to do about this? They couldn't stop even their own salaries being cut. What are they to do about starting salaries being cut?

It's basic right and wrong. You don't turn a blind eye when people who have the same qualifications are being shafted.

3) Do you not think this has been happening to teachers for years? The idea that someone is working 13/14 hours is not new. It is not part of the grand conspiracy against new teachers. Some of the 'permanent pensionable teachers with huge salaries' that the public/media/new teachers talk about are on 2/3rds salary too. They don't always wear a placard around their necks telling people.

Big difference, between earning half of 40k v half of 27k, 20k v 13k is a huge gap. None of the existing teachers on 2/3rds salary are on 13k a year.

4) So in a doomsday scenario and the country has no money to pay anybody...the unions will wake up and do exactly what? The unions are at their most powerful when money is plentiful. In such a scenario it would be irrelevant whether they woke up or not. Be very careful what you wish for.

I don't think any doomsday scenario is likely, things will roll along nicely for the government, teachers and young people will emigrate and the likes of Croke Park will ensure the government stays as it is because people protected by it will keep voting for the same parties.

5) Yes, teachers might have to emigrate. People generally have to emigrate. That's terrible at one level. On the other hand this is a generation that got its under-graduate fees paid for it and will go overseas with a qualification and an education, and will be able to come home fairly regularly should they choose to do so. This has not always been the case. There are worse things, and there are people far worse off.

"People generally have to emigrate", How many teachers do you know ever emigrated out of having to?!, Perhaps people who came out of college in the 80's in recessionary times, but how many who graduated in the last decade and got full-time jobs.
As for "under-graduate fees paid for it", well not for those who went back to do teaching as mature students, a significant number in the last year or two.

Inspector Coptoor

I started teaching in Sept 2007.

Between starting salary (31k) & Degree (5k)& Dip allowances (1.8k), I was on 37.8k that year.

Not 40, but not far off either.

doc_17

Wonder did the newly elected TDs see their salaries drop in the same fashion?

Oh wait, I think I know the answer to that.

rainbowtrout

newjobman wrote: »

"People generally have to emigrate", How many teachers do you know ever emigrated out of having to?!, Perhaps people who came out of college in the 80's in recessionary times, but how many who graduated in the last decade and got full-time jobs.
As for "under-graduate fees paid for it", well not for those who went back to do teaching as mature students, a significant number in the last year or two.

The floodgates were opened in the colleges a number of years ago when colleges kept upping the numbers of graduates they took in for the PDE, Hibernia started up with their primary course and now have an equivalent secondary PDE. UL (where I went) had 4 teaching courses when I went there in the late 90s - Science, Woodwork, Metalwork, PE. They took approximately 30-35 in each course. Practically everyone who graduated got a job without much hassle. None of the other colleges had B.Eds for second level education at the time.


Leaving the PDE aside as a standalone add on for those with Arts/Business/Science degrees for a minute, the numbers on the B.Ed courses have rocketed. I asked our PE dip student from UL this year what the numbers were like in her class. She told me there were about 100 in her class :eek: in final year and the other courses would be similar. UL have expanded to offer B.Eds in languages and maths also. Other colleges are now offering similar courses. You can add the PDE cohort on top of this.


There are too many teaching graduates and nowhere near enough jobs for all of them.


That coupled with people who are officially qualified to teach but are virtually unemployable because of their subject combination means there are a lot of people who will have to emigrate if they want to teach. This didn't happen much 10 years ago because there were far less people qualifying every year so there were enough jobs to absorb those graduates.

If I was in a position where I was hiring/interviewing prospective teachers and saw someone coming through the door with Italian/Classical Studies/Latin/CSPE as their second subject, I would be telling them to either be prepared to have little or no hours unless they had a core subject as their main subject or find a new career.

There was someone on here a few weeks ago looking for dip hours for Classical Studies. The fact that they were having trouble finding a school that offered the subject should tell them all they need to know about their employment prospects next year.

Fizzical

newjobman wrote: »

Again, cuts to existing v new teachers aren't comparable. If the cuts had of(sic) been broader then you would have had greater opposition to cuts from more people, but the unions fell for the government ploy of divide and conquer.

People of my generation have been let down by the unions, and the likelihood of them ever getting involved is pretty slim now.

It's basic right and wrong. You don't turn a blind eye when people who have the same qualifications are being shafted.

Well, I finally understand what the anti-teacher lobby describe as the 'sense of entitlement' among teachers. I never got it before.

Established teachers are not your parents. It is not their job to mother you or especially to give up their money to give you some. :eek:

Just because you got your education paid for doesn't mean everything has to be handed to you.

I started on a very poor salary and survived on beans for years. But I joined the union and paid my dues, taking part in lobbying and industrial action until that finally bore fruit. Teachers would have nothing without the hard slog of the unions (my colleagues and I) for years. Now the govt has shafted the profession and you blame us??

What is a union? Unions are groups of working people that join together to fight for their pay and conditions. People of 'your' generation won't join unions but expect other people to fight for you! If some of you do join unions you won't do any work, you still expect other people to fight for you. Info: the unions did fight and are still fighting for you while you whinge about being let down and kick your legs shouting well we won't join you if you don't get us our 'rights'.

If you don't like the existing unions - change them or start your own. Seriously. As they say on AH, grow a pair.:mad:

vamos!

I hate to see to see this permanent-vs-NQT or sub conflict. We have already seen the mass divide and conquer of the Private and Public sectors and I fear that we seem to be headed that way with new teachers and established teachers. If we concentrate on in-house fighting we really have no chance of addressing the issues diminishing our profession.

I am lucky enough not to be considered a new entrant, I know how the cuts to entry level salary came about and I understand the frustration that there were no strikes and major outcry when the wages were changed.There really was no point in all teachers taking huge cuts in sympathy. This cut is a long-term strategy and its timing was unfortunate for some. I wish the unions would make it very clear to the media (or that the media would actually choose to report) that the magic 27k wage is unlikely to be the reality for most new entrants as they will be lucky to get half hours and 13.5k.

I know there is no automatic entitlement to a job but it is beyond frustrating spending years of summers worrying about September and interviewing for jobs that may not exist or feeling guilty for not applying for the 4 hour sub position that is in a different part of the country to you. I think we need a more concrete and transparent employment system.

While there are people with crazy subject combinations or one subject degrees out there, there are still a huge number of people with good or established subject combos struggling to get interviews. Unemployed doesn't always mean did Classics and Latin with CSPE!

rainbowtrout

vamos! wrote: »

I hate to see to see this permanent-vs-NQT or sub conflict. We have already seen the mass divide and conquer of the Private and Public sectors and I fear that we seem to be headed that way with new teachers and established teachers. If we concentrate on in-house fighting we really have no chance of addressing the issues diminishing our profession.

I am lucky enough not to be considered a new entrant, I know how the cuts to entry level salary came about and I understand the frustration that there were no strikes and major outcry when the wages were changed.There really was no point in all teachers taking huge cuts in sympathy. This cut is a long-term strategy and its timing was unfortunate for some. I wish the unions would make it very clear to the media (or that the media would actually choose to report) that the magic 27k wage is unlikely to be the reality for most new entrants as they will be lucky to get half hours and 13.5k.

I know there is no automatic entitlement to a job but it is beyond frustrating spending years of summers worrying about September and interviewing for jobs that may not exist or feeling guilty for not applying for the 4 hour sub position that is in a different part of the country to you. I think we need a more concrete and transparent employment system.

While there are people with crazy subject combinations or one subject degrees out there, there are still a huge number of people with good or established subject combos struggling to get interviews. Unemployed doesn't always mean did Classics and Latin with CSPE!

True, but there are also plenty of people out there with a 'mainstream' subject as their main subject but it's a subject that doesn't have a huge uptake, e.g. Economics. The reality is that work is so hard to find for those with good subject combos that it's next to impossible for those with bad ones.

I would agree with some of what Fizzical said above. Plenty of giving out about pay and conditions by new teachers, but none will attend the union meetings. We knew cuts were coming to my school this May, there was a branch meeting on about 2 weeks before we got official word of the cuts. Non e of the part timers attended, and it was their jobs in danger. If they are not going to take an interest in trying to safeguard their jobs why would anyone else want to do it for them?

vamos!

rainbowtrout wrote: »

True, but there are also plenty of people out there with a 'mainstream' subject as their main subject but it's a subject that doesn't have a huge uptake, e.g. Economics. The reality is that work is so hard to find for those with good subject combos that it's next to impossible for those with bad ones.

I would agree with some of what Fizzical said above. Plenty of giving out about pay and conditions by new teachers, but none will attend the union meetings. We knew cuts were coming to my school this May, there was a branch meeting on about 2 weeks before we got official word of the cuts. Non e of the part timers attended, and it was their jobs in danger. If they are not going to take an interest in trying to safeguard their jobs why would anyone else want to do it for them?

I know this is the minority rather than the majority but I have friends who sub casually and cover maternity leaves who are worried about the consequences of joining the wrong union. Do you know if it possible to do such a thing? I never thought about the repercussions of being an ASTI member in a VEC, for example. Thankfully no industrial action happened when I was in the VEC school. Can you change your union membership according to your employment situation?

On the subject of jobs, I have a traditional French/German combo. German was much stronger when I was in college but French is still considered to be good. I have no real problems finding work (half hours or mat cover), but am nowhere near establishing a career or even knowing which part of the country I will end up in. I know teaching has been like this before, but am really v
concerned that the market is so over-saturated that there might be a whole generation who never get decent hours. I don't see pay rising any time soon but I really hope my visions of 11 hour CIDs being the norm is pessimistic!

vamos!

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I would agree with some of what Fizzical said above. Plenty of giving out about pay and conditions by new teachers, but none will attend the union meetings. We knew cuts were coming to my school this May, there was a branch meeting on about 2 weeks before we got official word of the cuts. Non e of the part timers attended, and it was their jobs in danger. If they are not going to take an interest in trying to safeguard their jobs why would anyone else want to do it for them?

This is shocking!:eek:

rainbowtrout

vamos! wrote: »

I know this is the minority rather than the majority but I have friends who sub casually and cover maternity leaves who are worried about the consequences of joining the wrong union. Do you know if it possible to do such a thing? I never thought about the repercussions of being an ASTI member in a VEC, for example. Thankfully no industrial action happened when I was in the VEC school. Can you change your union membership according to your employment situation?

On the subject of jobs, I have a traditional French/German combo. German was much stronger when I was in college but French is still considered to be good. I have no real problems finding work (half hours or mat cover), but am nowhere near establishing a career or even knowing which part of the country I will end up in. I know teaching has been like this before, but am really v
concerned that the market is so over-saturated that there might be a whole generation who never get decent hours. I don't see pay rising any time soon but I really hope my visions of 11 hour CIDs being the norm is pessimistic!

VEC are supposed to join TUI, Dept teachers are supposed to join ASTI. You don't get an option. If you are in a school that is the result of an amalgamation of a VEC and non VEC school both unions exist (as is the case in my school) and newcomers to the school can join either. In reality all new teachers in my school join TUI now as we are VEC and ASTI is more of a legacy and I would say in another few years will not exist in my school.

You can swap over membership, but I'd imagine for subs it's a lot of hassle. Casual subs don't have a lot of rights anyway that would need union assistance.

doc_17

Went to a out 4 union meetings this year (I'm not the rep) and its the same faces that I saw 5/6 years ago.

As I have said numerous times, decisions are made by those who show up. Dont like the union? Start your own. Or bring all your friends to the next union meeting and try and vote yourself as branch chair and implement the reforms you'd like to see.

seavill

newjobman wrote: »

"People generally have to emigrate", How many teachers do you know ever emigrated out of having to?!, Perhaps people who came out of college in the 80's in recessionary times, but how many who graduated in the last decade and got full-time jobs.

Oversupply is a huge issue, I qualified about 6 years ago and approx. 15% of our class actually managed to find a job (IN IRELAND), this is not a new problem. The problem has just become worse due to even greater oversupply.

The Woodwork teaching course in UL used to have approx 20-25 on it each year, so there would be max 100 in UL at any one time. In their wisdom (or greediness) they increased this to approx 80 in each year group a number of years ago. That makes about 320 plus post grads in UL at any one time. I would imagine there is about 600 -700 woodwork teachers working in the country (Just an estimate off the top of my head havnt found proper figures) now how it makes any sense to have a further 320 in college is beyond me.

This then repeated for a number of years I am not sure did they persist with this number the last couple of years, I presume they did. Plus Letterfrack was allowed to now offer the course also, to a much smaller group.

From my experience woodwork teachers are rarely sick, very few females so hardly any maternity leave, and tend to be in schools for long long time, so the availability of positions in that subject from year to year is scarce.

If we take maybe 20 or so retiring across the country each year (probably a big estimate I know in my county over the past 5 years put together 4 have retired) so maybe 20 or so jobs with 80 degree students + 20 post grads + 20 in Letterfrack (I think they may also offer post grad not 100% sure) so a guess of 120 coming out each year to 20 maybe 30 jobs at best.

This is why there is no jobs for anyone. Now replicate that across every subject combination. The situation is Ridiculous . This is why people need to emigrate.

Yes less pay is a problem, but I started on less pay and worse conditions in relation to buying back years, sick leave pay etc. than older colleagues. Me sitting there blaming them for this would make no difference.

Yes we need money to live but people in Ireland over the past number of years have forgotten how to live within their means. I started off on **** hours, **** pay and driving 1 1/2 hours each way for 10 hours a week. I rented a cheap apartment, had a 9 year old car, and was happy because it was something I loved to do. (and back to your comment earlier NO my mammy and daddy didn't bankroll me) Yes I was on slightly more than someone today on 10 hours would be but people need to get a grip and realise that is life. People survive on much less money all around us. We had kids coming into us last year that hadn't eaten a proper meal for 2 days. This is reality.

newjobman

Some very relevant and well put points from people, well argued.
No one who works in education has come out of the last three/four years that well off for it, infighting between people won't serve anyone well.
I didn't quite realise that the oversupply issue went back that far, so long.
In relation to the trade union thing, I agree if people want benefits, they need to get involved, something that younger teachers need to be aware of.
Anyway, Seavill's point about kids coming hungry puts it all into context really, and lets be real everyone public and private sector, full-time, part-time etc is getting hit one way or another.
But to answer the OP, well no, I don't think salaries will be rising for anyone, in any sector soon!
The thing that I don't get is entry to teaching courses and similar third level courses aren't halted for a few years until things improve on the job front.

evolving_doors

Maybe in about 9 years when this baby boom hits secondary school then 'hours' will be increased.

I think the logic to the 'mad' amount of teacher training places is that if they train enough teachers that they will go abroad and get experience over there then maybe have a good stock to chose from in the future... it's just a numbers game really..

Powerhouse

newjobman wrote: »

The thing that I don't get is entry to teaching courses and similar third level courses aren't halted for a few years until things improve on the job front.

This is very easy to get actually. Follow the money. There is no financial or economic incentive for the government to lower numbers in teacher training because it's a serious money-spinner for them.

The students are paying for the courses themselves and in doing so are subsidising other courses for which the government has to foot the bill. If the government pulled all these teacher-training courses it'd probably cost them somewhere north of €6/7 million annually especially when you consider jobseeker's allowance/dole payments avoided while students are in college.

There is also the longer-term potential advantage that if they have enough of a surplus of teachers - especially young un-unionised ones who when you shout 'jump' they'll ask 'how high?' - it will surely create a downwards pressure on wages in the future. To develop a point I made earlier - unions are at their strongest when money is plentiful and labour is short. The opposite is the case at the moment hence the relative toothlessness of unions and their drowning-man-grip of the CPA as the only show in town - and the ill-informed nature of criticism of unions by new teachers who must have been aware to some extent at least of the issues in teaching but for some reason went ahead anyway and decided that it would be different in their case.

Give the economic realites of the situation, the only way that a government would make a decision to cut teacher-training places is for purely altruistic motives, and governments are not in the business of altruism.

rainbowtrout

Armelodie wrote: »

Maybe in about 9 years when this baby boom hits secondary school then 'hours' will be increased.

I think the logic to the 'mad' amount of teacher training places is that if they train enough teachers that they will go abroad and get experience over there then maybe have a good stock to chose from in the future... it's just a numbers game really..

I don't think that has anyone to do with it. The PDE is a massive money spinner for colleges. Students are paying 6-7k per year to do it. They aren't on campus half the year because they are out on teaching practice at little or no cost to the college except for visits by lecturers to the student teachers. It's a low cost course in that most of it can be delivered in large lecture theatres which already exist. No specialist equipment is needed and it's not hard on resources like computer rooms, science labs etc. The colleges are raking it in, Hibernia even more so I'd imagine when they don't even have to provide the facilities as it's all distance learning.

Colleges don't care what happens to students after they graduate, they've got your money at that stage, you're not their responsibility. If they do contact you and find that you are stacking shelves in the local supermarket despite your 1.1 Hons in the PDE, you will still be listed in their stats as finding employment after graduation.

Hours will increase in schools in 10 years or so, but it won't be as dramatic as people think. Assuming pupil teacher ratios remain static for 10 years then yes there will be more jobs as the numbers go up in schools. But there will still be hundreds qualifying in teaching every year who haven't been able to get stable work for a number of years since they graduated. Everyone thought there would be loads of jobs on the back of the retirements in February and there wasn't. Jobs were absorbed, not replaced or hours were given to part timers already within the system. There will be some jobs in 10 years time, 20000 extra students in each year group of the second level system would equate to roughly 4500 full time jobs, but not this amount. Those jobs could easily be filled by all the people who have qualified and not found work in the last few years.

I read an article last week that said the birth rate in Ireland in 2000 was 55,000. Last year it was 75,000. So an extra 20,000 babies a year. Partly due to our increased population due to an influx of immigrants and partly due to the last baby boom of the late 70s/early 80s now starting to have babies of their own. It will tail off again in about 5 years. There will be extra jobs but they won't be scattered evenly around the country. I'd imagine a huge concentration of these jobs will be in Dublin, in areas like Dublin 15 and in the commuter belt around Dublin. I doubt much of the baby boom will be seen in the west of Ireland.

evolving_doors

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I don't think that has anyone to do with it. The PDE is a massive money spinner for colleges. Students are paying 6-7k per year to do it. They aren't on campus half the year because they are out on teaching practice at little or no cost to the college except for visits by lecturers to the student teachers. It's a low cost course in that most of it can be delivered in large lecture theatres which already exist. No specialist equipment is needed and it's not hard on resources like computer rooms, science labs etc. The colleges are raking it in, Hibernia even more so I'd imagine when they don't even have to provide the facilities as it's all distance learning.

Colleges don't care what happens to students after they graduate, they've got your money at that stage, you're not their responsibility. If they do contact you and find that you are stacking shelves in the local supermarket despite your 1.1 Hons in the PDE, you will still be listed in their stats as finding employment after graduation.

Hours will increase in schools in 10 years or so, but it won't be as dramatic as people think. Assuming pupil teacher ratios remain static for 10 years then yes there will be more jobs as the numbers go up in schools. But there will still be hundreds qualifying in teaching every year who haven't been able to get stable work for a number of years since they graduated. Everyone thought there would be loads of jobs on the back of the retirements in February and there wasn't. Jobs were absorbed, not replaced or hours were given to part timers already within the system. There will be some jobs in 10 years time, 20000 extra students in each year group of the second level system would equate to roughly 4500 full time jobs, but not this amount. Those jobs could easily be filled by all the people who have qualified and not found work in the last few years.

I read an article last week that said the birth rate in Ireland in 2000 was 55,000. Last year it was 75,000. So an extra 20,000 babies a year. Partly due to our increased population due to an influx of immigrants and partly due to the last baby boom of the late 70s/early 80s now starting to have babies of their own. It will tail off again in about 5 years. There will be extra jobs but they won't be scattered evenly around the country. I'd imagine a huge concentration of these jobs will be in Dublin, in areas like Dublin 15 and in the commuter belt around Dublin. I doubt much of the baby boom will be seen in the west of Ireland.

Take your point I suppose, more of a money racket than a numbers game...(i was trying to be a little optimistic for a change). I wonder though is it such a tragedy to be producing graduates for export or to put it a nicer way... giving people a good profession to travel the world. You'd really want to be young, free and single to find it easy to leave though.

backless

monkeypants wrote: »

Plenty of people with degrees earning considerably less than €25k right now. They have to work longer hours than teachers too.

As I am. I graduated 3 years ago, and with 2 years of experience in my field I'm now on a salary of 20k p/a (paying bills, rent and car loan off) at 24 years old and making moves to get a better paid job so I can save to do a H. Dip.

I remember a few of my handier teachers (two of my building construction ones in particular) having jobs on the side and in the summer holidays. One of the teachers was a roofer in the summer and the other a carpenter.

It doesn't have to be manual work though. I see my plan going something along the lines of:

• Apply this December for H. Dip, start studies in Sept 2013. Possibly earn rugby coaching badges at the same time, this would allow me to coach in schools- more income as a coach after hours.
• Hopefully graduate and start teaching in 2014.

I have an interest in IT and I regularly fix and troubleshoot problems for firneds and neighbours, so I'm considering getting CCNA cert, and do consultation during the summer holidays and whenever else I need or want to.

doc_17

Getting paid to coach rugby after school? You'll be expected to do that out I the kindness of your heart! Or maybe I should have been charging those little 13 and 14 year olds all this time for my coaching skills!