A dublin orange parade?

junder

A leading orange man recently spoke in your dail about improving relations with not only the wider unionist community but also residents of your own country that counted themselves as part of the orange community, his suggestion was allowing the local Dublin and Wicklow orange lodge being allowed to parade in thier capital city Dublin without fear of intimidation and violence which thus far as prevented them parading.

AN historic first speech to Dublin’s Parliament by a senior Orange Order figure yesterday ended with Fianna Fail saying that it was open to an Orange Order parade through Dublin at some point.

Orange Grand Secretary Drew Nelson told the Seanad that Orangemen in the Republic would love to parade in their capital city, although he said that the institution recognised the “challenges” that may pose.

The Fianna Fail leader in the Seanad, Darragh O’Brien, said that he would like to see a day when there could be an Orange Order parade in Dublin “in a non-triumphalist way”.

Mr Nelson, who also accused republicans of “demonising” the Order and said that he wanted to see it work closer with the Irish government, received warm applause after his speech.

Mr Nelson said that Mary McAleese and her husband Martin had made yesterday possible by “opening up lines of communications” with the Order by inviting them to Aras an Uachtarain during her time as president.

The British Ambassador to Dublin, Dominick Chilcott, and the US Ambassador, Dan Rooney, watched on from the public gallery yesterday.

After the speech, the Orange delegation had a half-hour meeting with Taoiseach Enda Kenny.

Source

I have quite frequently said on this site that one way republicans have of showing unionists that our culture will be respected if a united Ireland was ever to come about , is to show those that share my culture and luve within the Irish republic that they are respected and equals within thier own country. I have spokern directly to the Dublin and Wicklow orange lodge and while they have in the past been granted permission to parade in Dublin they felt unable to go ahead with a parade because republicans have threatened counter demonstrations and the lodge has not wanted to be the focal point for the possibility of violence that may come from these counter demonstrations

chalkitdown

My grandmother often told of going to Donegal to watch the parades in her youth, it should happen here but I'm afraid the motives of the current 'defenders' are still suspect.

christmas2012

there bigots that will try to incite a riot like the last time,and the expense to the exchequer cleaning up in the riot aftermath is not on,especially as were in a recession and in debt to the eu..

junder

chalkitdown wrote: »

My grandmother often told of going to Donegal to watch the parades in her youth, it should happen here but I'm afraid the motives of the current 'defenders' are still suspect.

The motive of the Dublin and wicklow lodge was / is only to celebrate thier culture

Dont be at yourself

I hope it goes ahead, and hope that it's not hijacked for an agenda by muppets of any stripe.

chalkitdown

junder wrote: »

The motive of the Dublin and wicklow lodge was / is only to celebrate thier culture

That may be the case relating to the honourable but for the effigy burners it still may take some time.

junder

chalkitdown wrote: »

junder wrote: »

The motive of the Dublin and wicklow lodge was / is only to celebrate thier culture

That may be the case relating to the honourable but for the effigy burners it still may take some time.

Effigy burners?

chalkitdown

junder wrote: »

Effigy burners?

Oh come on, I've experienced enough 12th's to know that you can't be ignorant of that association.

dlofnep

junder wrote: »

I have quite frequently said on this site that one way republicans have of showing unionists that our culture will be respected if a united Ireland was ever to come about

I'd be happy for Unionists to come down and have a general parade for unionists in the spirit of friendship, but can you please stop equating the Orange Order to Unionist culture. It's not Unionist culture. In fact, the majority of Unionists want nothing to do with it. It's a sectarian organisation, built on foundations of bigotry.

I'm not one to oppose freedom of speech and freedom of expression, but the Orange Order has been the leading organisation in riling up unfounded hatred towards the greater Irish population for decades, and now they want to march in Dublin?

Let Unionists have a parade, but an inclusive parade which includes all aspects of the Unionist community, and not a narrow-minded group of bigots. Unionists are much better than that shower.

junder

chalkitdown wrote: »

junder wrote: »

Effigy burners?

Oh come on, I've experienced enough 12th's to know that you can't be ignorant of that association.

Proberly been to more 12ths the you but I have never seen any effigys burnt.

junder

dlofnep wrote: »

junder wrote: »

I have quite frequently said on this site that one way republicans have of showing unionists that our culture will be respected if a united Ireland was ever to come about

I'd be happy for Unionists to come down and have a general parade for unionists in the spirit of friendship, but can you please stop equating the Orange Order to Unionist culture. It's not Unionist culture. In fact, the majority of Unionists want nothing to do with it. It's a sectarian organisation, built on foundations of bigotry.

I'm not one to oppose freedom of speech and freedom of expression, but the Orange Order has been the leading organisation in riling up unfounded hatred towards the greater Irish population for decades, and now they want to march in Dublin?

Let Unionists have a parade, but an inclusive parade which includes all aspects of the Unionist community, and not a narrow-minded group of bigots. Unionists are much better than that shower.

And you speak for the majorty of unionists?

ANXIOUS

If it goes ahead I hope it is better planned than last time.

chalkitdown

junder wrote: »

Proberly been to more 12ths the you but I have never seen any effigys burnt.

Specsavers.

junder

chalkitdown wrote: »

junder wrote: »

Proberly been to more 12ths the you but I have never seen any effigys burnt.

Specsavers.

And what has specsavers got to do with this thread

dlofnep

junder wrote: »

And you speak for the majorty of unionists?

Nope - but the Orange Order certainly doesn't speak for the majority of Unionists. Its membership is in decline, and it's irrelevant to unionism.

junder

ANXIOUS wrote: »

If it goes ahead I hope it is better planned than last time.

The love ulster parade was not an orange parade

chalkitdown

junder wrote: »

And what has specsavers got to do with this thread

Only my warped sense of humour probably. It will be very hard for Southern Unionists to disassociate themselves from the hatred that the Northern loyal orders allow to mar their parades.

who_me

Respecting the Unionist tradition is one thing. Respecting an organisation where - up until 2002 - members could be expelled for marrying or cohabiting with a Catholic, or even attending a Catholic wedding, funeral or baptism... that's another.

doopa

Where do they want to march? - down the centre of Dublin or through the more affluent southern suburbs where no-one would care and I'd imagine a lot of people would be more sympathetic.

Just out of idle curiousity what is the age demographic of the Dublin/Wicklow lodges?

chalkitdown

who_me wrote: »

Respecting the Unionist tradition is one thing. Respecting an organisation where - up until 2002 - members could be expelled for marrying or cohabiting with a Catholic, or even attending a Catholic wedding, funeral or baptism... that's another.

Please be aware that it was compulsory to bring up children of mixed marriages as Catholic in the Republic until relatively recently. That is not a valid position.

tayto lover

junder wrote: »

The motive of the Dublin and wicklow lodge was / is only to celebrate thier culture

Yis could stop on the way down and have a practice march in Dundalk. A lovely wee town with a big welcome.

junder

dlofnep wrote: »

junder wrote: »

And you speak for the majorty of unionists?

Nope - but the Orange Order certainly doesn't speak for the majority of Unionists. It's membership is in decline, and it's irrelevant to unionism.

Again, you speak for unionism?

junder

tayto lover wrote: »

junder wrote: »

The motive of the Dublin and wicklow lodge was / is only to celebrate thier culture

Yis could stop on the way down and have a practice march in Dundalk. A lovely wee town with a big welcome.

Why would the Dublin and Wicklow lodge go up to Dundalk to parade when they are from Dublin?

chalkitdown

junder wrote: »

Why would the Dublin and Wicklow lodge go up to Dundalk to parade when they are from Dublin?

Indeed, Cromwell wanted rid of the God believers.

AltAccount

junder wrote: »

Why would the Dublin and Wicklow lodge go up to Dundalk to parade when they are from Dublin?

Would you hold your parade in Wicklow town? Probably much less chance of intimidation or violence there.

christmas2012

lets face it this orange march is not going to do anything for community relations quite the opposite in fact..

junder

AltAccount wrote: »

junder wrote: »

Why would the Dublin and Wicklow lodge go up to Dundalk to parade when they are from Dublin?

Would you hold your parade in Wicklow town? Probably much less chance of intimidation or violence there.

So Irish citizens are not allowed to parade on thier own capital city?

cristoir

Any protest/march that is non-violent should be allowed. As I said in the AH thread if you don't like it organise a peaceful counter-march. That's how a grown up democracy should work.

junder

cristoir wrote: »

Any protest/march that is non-violent should be allowed. As I said in the AH thread if you don't like it organise a peaceful counter-march. That's how a grown up democracy should work.

I agree

blahfckingblah

junder wrote: »

So Irish citizens are not allowed to parade on thier own capital city?

well i don't think theres much sense in reinacting 2006, poor charlie bird would be horrified at the thought

tayto lover

junder wrote: »

Why would the Dublin and Wicklow lodge go up to Dundalk to parade when they are from Dublin?

Oh i'm sure some of the religious brethern from the North would only be too eager to attend.

junder

tayto lover wrote: »

junder wrote: »

Why would the Dublin and Wicklow lodge go up to Dundalk to parade when they are from Dublin?

Oh i'm sure some of the religious brethern from the North would only be too eager to attend.

Really? And you would know this how?

tayto lover

junder wrote: »

Really? And you would know this how?

Some of them told me.

AltAccount

junder wrote: »

So Irish citizens are not allowed to parade on thier own capital city?

But you're the Dublin and Wicklow lodge. Why wouldn't Wicklow town be an entirely suitable place to march, and it would allay the fears you say your members have about marching in Dublin.

junder

tayto lover wrote: »

junder wrote: »

Really? And you would know this how?

Some of them told me.

Sure they did. Well so far most of you have confirmed our suspicions that dispite saying that unionist culture will be welcome in a united Ireland, so far we have 3 pages that say different and as a unionist / loyalist I can tell you that the loyal orders are a fundamentally important part of my culture as will be born out next week when 100,000s of people across northern Ireland, Scotland and yes even England will be out watching or taking part in the 12th (in which no effigys will be burnt)

gurramok

junder wrote: »

So Irish citizens are not allowed to parade on thier own capital city?

Not British no?

They are subversives who want this state destroyed by way of implementing British rule, the Special Branch should infiltrate them to make sure the public are protected.

junder

AltAccount wrote: »

junder wrote: »

So Irish citizens are not allowed to parade on thier own capital city?

But you're the Dublin and Wicklow lodge. Why wouldn't Wicklow town be an entirely suitable place to march, and it would allay the fears you say your members have about marching in Dublin.

I'm not in the Dublin and Wicklow lodge

southsiderosie

MOD NOTE:

Folks, can we take it easy on the smart-arse one-liner comments? Thanks.

junder

gurramok wrote: »

junder wrote: »

So Irish citizens are not allowed to parade on thier own capital city?

Not British no?

They are subversives who want this state destroyed by way of implementing British rule, the Special Branch should infiltrate them to make sure the public are protected.

British? You tell me they are after born and reared in the republic of ireland. Moreover if they do indentify with being British, so what? Republicans keep telling us we are irish, is this now not the case? And subversive in what way exactly? If this was the case surly you government would have proscribed the Dublin lodge?

AltAccount

junder wrote: »

I'm not in the Dublin and Wicklow lodge

Apologies, because you've mentioned this specific lodge, and no other, four times (five including this post, as some wiseass will probably point out) I presumed you were speaking as a member.

Getting away from this silly gaffe of mine, they're the Dublin and Wicklow lodge. Why wouldn't Wicklow town be an entirely suitable place to march, and it would allay the fears you say their members have about marching in Dublin.

COYW

chalkitdown wrote: »

Please be aware that it was compulsory to bring up children of mixed marriages as Catholic in the Republic until relatively recently. That is not a valid position.

Not true. Father RC, mother COI, brought up COI.

Personally, I have no issue with a march in Dublin and members of the OO are welcome from Dublin, Wicklow, Belfast, Portadown, Liverpool or wherever. If people have a problem with it, they should hold their own peaceful protest against it.

junder

AltAccount wrote: »

junder wrote: »

I'm not in the Dublin and Wicklow lodge

Apologies, because you've mentioned this specific lodge, and no other, four times (five including this post, as some wiseass will probably point out) I presumed you were speaking as a member.

Getting away from this silly gaffe of mine, they're the Dublin and Wicklow lodge. Why wouldn't Wicklow town be an entirely suitable place to march, and it would allay the fears you say their members have about marching in Dublin.

To make a point that this is a local lodge in Dublin wanting to walk in thier capital city and not the Belfast 12th walking O'connel street. Moreover orange parades do take Place in villages in the republic, but is this the only way the orange order is allowed to parade in the republic. I am sure the Dublin and Wicklow lodge would quite happly parade innwicklow town if they are allowed, but it begs the question would they be allowed to parade in Wicklow town? And why should parading in Wicklow preclude them parading in Dublin

doopa

COYW wrote: »

Not true. Father RC, mother COI, brought up COI.

Personally, I have no issue with a march in Dublin and members of the OO are welcome from Dublin, Wicklow, Belfast, Portadown, Liverpool or wherever. If people have a problem with it, they should hold their own peaceful protest against it.

I believe it was a maternal thing in response to the first point.

What is the aim of the march?

It does seem to massively conflagrate the idea the unionism==protestantism. There aren't any unionists in the republic any more (obivously there are protestants). An Orange March in the republic could only be a celebration of Protestantism, but would lose any of the political camoflague afforded it in the North, and so could only be judged on the merits of its religous beliefs which are quite frankly from a couple of centuries ago. Something I'm personally not a massive fan of having 'celebrated'.

christmas2012

the cost of cleaning up should have our government refuse this riot provoking march

doopa

junder wrote: »

To make a point that this is a local lodge in Dublin wanting to walk in thier capital city and not the Belfast 12th walking O'connel street. Moreover orange parades do take Place in villages in the republic, but is this the only way the orange order is allowed to parade in the republic. I am sure the Dublin and Wicklow lodge would quite happly parade innwicklow town if they are allowed, but it begs the question would they be allowed to parade in Wicklow town? And why should parading in Wicklow preclude them parading in Dublin

So are we moving the goalposts - to should the OO be allowed to march in the centre of Dublin?

chalkitdown

COYW wrote: »

Not true. Father RC, mother COI, brought up COI.

Interesting, not the policy in Munster.

gurramok

junder wrote: »

British? You tell me they are after born and reared in the republic of ireland. Moreover if they do indentify with being British, so what? Republicans keep telling us we are irish, is this now not the case? And subversive in what way exactly? If this was the case surly you government would have proscribed the Dublin lodge?

Make up your mind, are they British or Irish?

They are a religious hate group who are anti-gay, anti-Catholic and anti-secular. You follow these beliefs?

As I said, they are undermining the Irish state by wanting it abolished and absorbed into the UK.

junder

An irish perspective on the speech, (although being the independent I can already envisage the replys)


http://www.independent.ie/opinion/an...y-3158344.html

A slightly more mature response. Sadly not shared by most of the posters on this thread. We as unionist are told to move on but it seems what's good for the goose is not good for the gander as it seems many republicans can't move on from negative stereotypes of the past.

junder

gurramok wrote: »

junder wrote: »

British? You tell me they are after born and reared in the republic of ireland. Moreover if they do indentify with being British, so what? Republicans keep telling us we are irish, is this now not the case? And subversive in what way exactly? If this was the case surly you government would have proscribed the Dublin lodge?

Make up your mind, are they British or Irish?

They are a religious hate group who are anti-gay, anti-Catholic and anti-secular. You follow these beliefs?

As I said, they are undermining the Irish state by wanting it abolished and absorbed into the UK.

Why do I need to make up my mind for them. They are what they perceive themselves to be. They are however born in the republic and carry Irish passports so regardless of what they may perceive themselves as being, they are citzens of the Irish republic.

chalkitdown

More context please, is that the same 'Nelson'?

southsiderosie

MOD NOTE:

junder, we've been over this: please don't cut and paste entire articles. You should be able to edit your own articles in-thread - it is not our job to do this for you, and normally these kinds of posts are infracted and/or deleted.