A dublin orange parade?

SocSocPol · 09-07-2012 8:38am

tayto lover wrote: »

When they signed the Good Friday Agreement they should not have formed a Parades Commission at all. They should just have banned ALL marches of any kind or persuasion. They belong in the past.

Actually I think this post sums it up, we need to move on and leave the marches behind.
Celebrating the 12th or the Easter Rising or whatever is not going to bring any kind of reconcilliation.

Cú Giobach · 09-07-2012 9:05am

whitelines wrote: »

I'm afraid you've rather missed the point of my hypotheses. I never said it was weird for Irish Nationalists to live outside Ireland, only that it was ridiculous and hypocritical in the extreme for them to choose to live in The UK - the nation that ruled them ruthlessly for 800 years and which they claim still occupies 6 Irish counties.

Weird or strange behaviour is so called because it is not the norm, the only reason someone could call the behaviours you mention "weird" would be if they came form a community where bitterness and hatred are passed down undiluted for generation after generation, now since such carry on is not the norm it cannot be described as weird, it is in fact normal human behaviour.
That people don't tend to hold on to a genuine hatred many generations beyond an "unpleasantness" enables us to get on with our lives and through trade and the movements of people increase our standards of living and give people the peace of mind and security that is missing when hatred exists between peoples.

If indeed you come from a community where this generational hatred is the norm (consequently you mistakenly thinking it's the norm everywhere), maybe it's time to start teaching your children that it is actually quite odd and not common around the world, teach them it has a very negative effect on a society, hatred and suspicion causes friction, negatively affects trade and business and can lead to violence or even war, things most rational people don't like.
Maybe you can learn from us. Good luck for the future.

Happyman42 · 09-07-2012 11:02am

Chuck Stone wrote: »

People in the south don't really consider themselves Irish Nationalists - just Irish. Also, people went to England to find work - something Irish people have been doing for generations and still are.

Why is this difficult for you to understand? The ancestors of people transported to the west Indies as slaves by the English went to England to find work.

If Irish people going to England to work 'lack dignity' (such bullshit) then what must you think of the ancestors of slaves going to England to work?

How very very strange..

Yes, and the point is that many of those who left did so for the exact same reason millions of British men and women colonists left the shores of Britian...they where just following the money. Some of them stayed but many landed back when the money ran out, or when the plunder was exhausted or when they where chased out.
Then they got sniffy when the colonised followed their own plundered wealth wealth back to London and Birmingham etc. Famous Unionists like Enoch Powell never did understand why that would happen. But it made Britian what it is today, a fantastic multicultural environment.

Happyman42 · 09-07-2012 11:28am

poeticseraphim wrote: »

I am not going to retaliate to something that is blatantly untrue...

Could you explain what you mean here?

junder · 09-07-2012 11:53am

tayto lover wrote: »

When they signed the Good Friday Agreement they should not have formed a Parades Commission at all. They should just have banned ALL marches of any kind or persuasion. They belong in the past.

Yer because that really worked in the past, sure while we are banning people's right to assembly why not ban what they have to say to

Happyman42 · 09-07-2012 1:08pm

junder wrote: »

Yer because that really worked in the past, sure while we are banning people's right to assembly why not ban what they have to say to

Well, marches are undeniably divisive and unhelpful, a 10 or 20 year moratorium would achieve quite a lot imo. It would allow internal reflection on what these organistions actually are without the ritual yearly need to dig into defensive positions and to get involved with divisive debates with the parades commission.
It would also stop the more bigoted using organisations to spread their hate.

SocSocPol · 09-07-2012 1:15pm

junder wrote: »

Yer because that really worked in the past, sure while we are banning people's right to assembly why not ban what they have to say to

Banning what people have to say is done regularly under incitement to hatred and anti-terrorism legislation in both Ireland and the UK.
with regards to marches I cannot ever remember a time when all marches were banned so how would we know how that worked in the past.

thecommietommy · 09-07-2012 1:54pm

whitelines wrote: »

It's not the world wide phenomena of Irish migration which intrigues (or even interests) me, but rather Irish migration from The Irish Republic to The United Kingdom including Northern Ireland. It seems to me rather strange that those who screamed and fought for Irish freedom from The Crown would (having obtained it) avail themselves of the boat to The UK mainland. To paraphrase the old saying that mocked America's enemies, it seems rather like 'Brits out - and take me with you'. Again, to take things even further, it would seem to any rational outsider, that an Irish Nationalist moving to Northern Ireland from The Republic to live under The Crown and face hideous persecution takes hypocrisy to an unprecedented level.

Firstly, are you seriously telling me that someone from say, Dundalk who goes to live just down the road in Newry or from Strabane to Lifford, you define as " migration "

Tens of thousands of unionists have worked and lived in the ROI, they haven't given up their political views or membership of the Orange Order while living down here, does this phenomena of unionist migration not intrigue you ? I cannot see what is intriguing about Irish people holding on to their view of history in Britain or any foreign country, listening to Irish folk songs, wearing GAA shirts, it's what ex pats do when away. Go to a former enemy of Britain's like Germany and you'll see plenty of English people hanging out in English theme bars, wearing England shirts etc ? Are you seriously going to tell me that these English peoples views on WW2 etc should be changed because they live in Germany ?

BFDCH. · 09-07-2012 2:59pm

poeticseraphim wrote: »

Your rhetoric is your opinion.

And it is clear that it is biased and entrenched and so there is no reasoning with you.

You insist only your side is correct.

As a proud Irish person in the republic i disagree with you.

Allowing a march is not unreasonable .....infact not allowing it may be seen as unreasonable.

If we the Irish people have no objection well whats the problem??

I have no issue with them marching...i have issues with SOME of their members being biggots and what SOME of them did...but what has that got to do with OO in dublin?

I am a Dubliner if i am ok with it then why not?

And i am sorry but your take on the issue is totally dogmatic and indoctrined.

You talk sides ..you put everyone in opposition...thats not your right.....and its only YOUR perception.

An act does not automatically put someone onside that is BS ..NOW YOU are supressing the people of DUBLIN...its part of the SF mentality ..you can only be free by doing what i tell you

Sorry but i feel what you have said is incredibly oppressive and totally illogical ..to suggest that allowing someone to march or speak out is agreeing with themm or taking a side on past actions of theirs is a logical fallacy...

Where do you get off saying who we can have march in Dublin??? Supressing it simply on that basis is as bad as enforcing it...

You are simply driven by a revenge mindset and bitterness

Did you ever hear that phrase 'better to be thought a fool and remain silent, than to speak out and remove all doubt'?
I think you should remain silent on what 'we in the republic' think and also what Northern nationalists think, as it comes across as extreme trolling at best.
OT- Where are these local lodges based? - I'd guess Greystones and Dalkey, they'd be fine parading in either of those spots.
If they are allowed to march in the city centre, I think they should be escorted by a gay pride parade too to show their acceptance of our tolerant nature.

poeticseraphim · 09-07-2012 4:14pm

BFDCH. wrote: »

Did you ever hear that phrase 'better to be thought a fool and remain silent, than to speak out and remove all doubt'?
I think you should remain silent on what 'we in the republic' think and also what Northern nationalists think, as it comes across as extreme trolling at best.
OT- Where are these local lodges based? - I'd guess Greystones and Dalkey, they'd be fine parading in either of those spots.
If they are allowed to march in the city centre, I think they should be escorted by a gay pride parade too to show their acceptance of our tolerant nature.

You want me to remain silent?

So what about my rights then?

No i do not think i speak for all in Dublin and i have expressly said that i know i do not and cannot understand the feelings and experiences of those in the north.

No i am not trolling.

Tolerance indicates there is something to be tolerated....Gay pride is something to celebrate..not tolerate

An OO march is something to tolerate.

I am not saying tolerate the bigotry...but i don't think all the OO FEEL and think the same way.

I think if they can show some acceptance of others then they deserve some tolerance...

If hey make some gestures why not?

poeticseraphim · 09-07-2012 4:39pm

Happyman42 wrote: »

Could you explain what you mean here?

I was called by a bigoted term

I was called a (excuse me)... 'west brit'

This is an insult to Irish people.

To be honest it is an insult to actual British people.

It is derogatory to us both

The only west brits are those from the west of Britain.

I am from Dublin i have Irish parents i try to show respect to others as a signal that i expect the same in return.

The person who used it got banned. So i did not want to give them what they wanted.

It is a method of control manipulative people use to get people to comply with their ideas.

I do not actually believe in the term. What does it actually mean anyway?

An Irish person of British heritage? (of which i am not) An Irish person loyal to Britain (of which i am definitely not...but i am not a supreme nationalist either i am loyal to my beliefs ) ...What does it actually mean?

It means nothing.

I know who i am.

I was saying that i would not retaliate to a derogatory insult that is blatantly not true that infact is actually meaningless. As all derogatory insults are.

It is really surprising to me that people cannot except that there are Irish people (yes Real Irish no hyphens and raised here) who have different ideas.

I did not want to get into defending my 'Irishness' as that is what is wanted and plus i really don't have to. And the poster was banned so i did not want to cause a nasty tone on the thread. So i was light hearted about it.

Do you believe in this term?

I worry if Ireland is not even tolerant enough to put up with people who think differently...and yes i realize people have to put up with me..

Happyman42 · 09-07-2012 5:44pm

poeticseraphim wrote: »

Do you believe in this term?

I don't believe you displayed any of the traits and I don't use the term as an insult. But there are plenty Irish born people in the south who see themselves as British first. Read this as a classic essay on confused identity. http://www.dublin1313.com/site/2011/06/12/what-is-britishness/

Link back to the Dublin - Wicklow OO site for an even more profound example of confusion. Separated from it's more baltantly bigoted sister organisation in the North, and in an attempt (failed imo) to hide it's inherent bigotry, this southern organisation doesn't quite know if it is a society for 'expat British people' an 'organsiation for the defence of the Protestant faith' or an 'organistion to defend against the despotic exploits of the Roman Church', but it is quite clear to me that they don't want anything to do with an Irish republic. Quite clearly their loyalty is to the Crown and to Britian, quite a preposterous stance in 2012 for Irish citizens to take. That is why you will never see them parade an Irish Tricolour.
All of which is fine and relatively harmless but in that confusion has grown an organisation that fosters bigotry and hate, kept under wraps in the South (as best they can, but there is plenty of it on that site) probably because of fear of reprisal, but very evident every time the Northern organisation takes to the streets. Read some of the mockery and **** stirring articles on that site about the Irish state and notice how there is not one about some of the immoral shennanigans the crown has gotten up to over the years. It's laughable if it wasn't so serious. We can't afford to give this organisation any credibility in it's present set-up. To allow them to march in Dublin would be a huge mistake.

http://www.dublin1313.com/site/

junder · 09-07-2012 6:24pm

Happyman42 wrote: »

poeticseraphim wrote: »

Do you believe in this term?

I don't believe you displayed any of the traits and I don't use the term as an insult. But there are plenty Irish born people in the south who see themselves as British first. Read this as a classic essay on confused identity. http://www.dublin1313.com/site/2011/06/12/what-is-britishness/

Link back to the Dublin - Wicklow OO site for an even more profound example of confusion. Separated from it's more baltantly bigoted sister organisation in the North, and in an attempt (failed imo) to hide it's inherent bigotry, this southern organisation doesn't quite know if it is a society for 'expat British people' an 'organsiation for the defence of the Protestant faith' or an 'organistion to defend against the despotic exploits of the Roman Church', but it is quite clear to me that they don't want anything to do with an Irish republic. Quite clearly their loyalty is to the Crown and to Britian, quite a preposterous stance in 2012 for Irish citizens to take. That is why you will never see them parade an Irish Tricolour.
All of which is fine and relatively harmless but in that confusion has grown an organisation that fosters bigotry and hate, kept under wraps in the South (as best they can, but there is plenty of it on that site) probably because of fear of reprisal, but very evident every time the Northern organisation takes to the streets. Read some of the mockery and **** stirring articles on that site about the Irish state and notice how there is not one about some of the immoral shennanigans the crown has gotten up to over the years. It's laughable if it wasn't so serious. We can't afford to give this organisation any credibility in it's present set-up. To allow them to march in Dublin would be a huge mistake.

http://www.dublin1313.com/site/

Considering the vitriol poured onto the orange order and the hatred (bigotry) shown towards it and the people that celebrate it, mind telling me what the orange in your flag represents?

golden lane · 09-07-2012 6:29pm

junder wrote: »

Considering the vitriol poured onto the orange order and the hatred (bigotry) shown towards it and the people that celebrate it, mind telling me what the orange in your flag represents?

origionally, i believe it was for to state the 26 counties claim on the other six counties.......

better now, if it represents the coming together of both communities in harmony...

thecommietommy · 09-07-2012 6:38pm

golden lane wrote: »

origionally, i believe it was for to state the 26 counties claim on the other six counties.......

better now, if it represents the coming together of both communities in harmony...

Since you brought it up, the tricolour predates the 26 county state - " The Irish Tricolour flag was first flown publicly by Meagher in his native city at the Wolf Tone Confederate Club at 33 The Mall, Waterford City on March 7th 1848. "
http://www.1848tricolour.com/index.php?contentid=history-of-the-irish-flag

golden lane · 09-07-2012 6:41pm

thecommietommy wrote: »

Since you brought it up, the tricolour predates the 26 county state - " The Irish Tricolour flag was first flown publicly by Meagher in his native city at the Wolf Tone Confederate Club at 33 The Mall, Waterford City on March 7th 1848. "
http://www.1848tricolour.com/index.php?contentid=history-of-the-irish-flag

yes, i actually thought it was earlier than that....

but i was adopted as the free state flag a long time after that...and i think that is why it was adopted....

Shea O'Meara · 09-07-2012 6:43pm

I think it's a terrible idea and believe it was only put forward to stir the pot and widen the divide, to make the Orange Order feel needed.
They are pretty sure that if it goes ahead there'll be some form of riot or in the least a protest of sorts. Thus, in there little minds, showing the world that the south hates Ulster, which is bull**** of course.
Or if I'm wrong, the unionists and orange folk believe a march will be helpful and we'll all be holding hands by the end of it.....:rolleyes:
What I found funny was the 'Love Ulster' parade, like unionists and the Orange order own Ulster and are asking the rest of the Irish to 'love' something which is already a part of us. Only bigots think in such broad strokes. You dislike the orange order, you dislike the entire North. You dislike the Queen, you dislike every English, Scot, Welsh, German (for the Queen's family) alive.
As suggested a festival and or celebration of the North and all it's people. I would support a march with both sides and the normal majority of the North represented. A unionist and/or orange order march is pointless and will only set things back.

junder · 09-07-2012 6:52pm

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

I think it's a terrible idea and believe it was only put forward to stir the pot and widen the divide, to make the Orange Order feel needed.
They are pretty sure that if it goes ahead there'll be some form of riot or in the least a protest of sorts. Thus, in there little minds, showing the world that the south hates Ulster, which is bull**** of course.
Or if I'm wrong, the unionists and orange folk believe a march will be helpful and we'll all be holding hands by the end of it.....:rolleyes:
What I found funny was the 'Love Ulster' parade, like unionists and the Orange order own Ulster and are asking the rest of the Irish to 'love' something which is already a part of us. Only bigots think in such broad strokes. You dislike the orange order, you dislike the entire North. You dislike the Queen, you dislike every English, Scot, Welsh, German (for the Queen's family) alive.
As suggested a festival and or celebration of the North and all it's people. I would support a march with both sides and the normal majority of the North represented. A unionist and/or orange order march is pointless and will only set things back.

These members of the Dublin and Wicklow lodge live in the republic, why on earth would they want to cause a riot when they would have to live with the consequences. They don't have to have a parade to show how they are hated in the republic one look at comments such as your own would confirm that. Its really frustrating having to repeat myself but this is not THE orange order asking to parade in Dublin but a small local lodge wanting to parade in thier own capital city.

christmas2012 · 09-07-2012 6:55pm

Why all of a sudden do they want to keep pushing for the parade after the last event which turned into a riot..Ask yourself.And not to mention its going to cost us(in this recession) to clean up in the aftermath,drive tourism away and local business away for that day,thats a lot of money lost..

golden lane · 09-07-2012 6:55pm

junder wrote: »

These members of the Dublin and Wicklow lodge live in the republic, why on earth would they want to cause a riot when they would have to live with the consequences. They don't have to have a parade to show how they are hated in the republic one look at comments such as your own would confirm that. Its really frustrating having to repeat myself but this is not THE orange order asking to parade in Dublin but a small local lodge wanting to parade in thier own capital city.

but, is it affiliated with those orange lodges in the north....if so, it could be taken over by them.....

junder · 09-07-2012 7:06pm

golden lane wrote: »

junder wrote: »

These members of the Dublin and Wicklow lodge live in the republic, why on earth would they want to cause a riot when they would have to live with the consequences. They don't have to have a parade to show how they are hated in the republic one look at comments such as your own would confirm that. Its really frustrating having to repeat myself but this is not THE orange order asking to parade in Dublin but a small local lodge wanting to parade in thier own capital city.

but, is it affiliated with those orange lodges in the north....if so, it could be taken over by them.....

No it couldn't the lodge can apply in its own right and as it has been granted permission. However considering the comments on this thread it wasn't the threat of orange violence that led to the parade being canceled, it was the threat of republican violence and it was the lodge themselves that called of the parade do that they wouldn't be held responsable for any violence. As for the clean up costs what clean up costs a lodge and a band (which will also must likely be from the republic) can't really see to many people being around to watch it except maybe for friends and family do can't see any cleanup costs.
Still waiting for an answer as to what the orange represents in your flag?

Chuck Stone · 09-07-2012 7:10pm

junder wrote: »

These members of the Dublin and Wicklow lodge live in the republic, why on earth would they want to cause a riot when they would have to live with the consequences.

I don't think people would have much of a problem with them marching from their lodges to their local Church.

Are we supposed to shut down the Capital and spend resources on ensuring the security of every fringe group who want to march?

Happyman42 · 09-07-2012 7:28pm

junder wrote: »

Considering the vitriol poured onto the orange order and the hatred (bigotry) shown towards it and the people that celebrate it, mind telling me what the orange in your flag represents?

It certainly doesn't represent those who have loyalty to the crown or who see themselves as religious defenders in a secular republic. Which is what we are now.

junder wrote: »

These members of the Dublin and Wicklow lodge live in the republic, why on earth would they want to cause a riot when they would have to live with the consequences. They don't have to have a parade to show how they are hated in the republic one look at comments such as your own would confirm that. Its really frustrating having to repeat myself but this is not THE orange order asking to parade in Dublin but a small local lodge wanting to parade in thier own capital city.

If all they want to do is march, why haven't they applied for a permit to join the St. Patrick's Day parade?
Ater all they claim their own 'special' ownership of him on that site.

junder · 09-07-2012 7:33pm

Happyman42 wrote: »

junder wrote: »

Considering the vitriol poured onto the orange order and the hatred (bigotry) shown towards it and the people that celebrate it, mind telling me what the orange in your flag represents?

It certainly doesn't represent those who have loyalty to the crown or who see themselves as religious defenders in a secular republic. Which is what we are now.

junder wrote: »

These members of the Dublin and Wicklow lodge live in the republic, why on earth would they want to cause a riot when they would have to live with the consequences. They don't have to have a parade to show how they are hated in the republic one look at comments such as your own would confirm that. Its really frustrating having to repeat myself but this is not THE orange order asking to parade in Dublin but a small local lodge wanting to parade in thier own capital city.

If all they want to do is march, why haven't they applied for a permit to join the St. Patrick's Day parade?

As it happens they were invited to take part in the saint Patricks parade back in 2000 think the Dublin city coucil had this crazy idea of having all the cultures in Dublin represented at the millennium saint Patrick's parade, again it was the threat of republican violence that ment the invitation had to be rescinded. Ironically for all the accusations of the orange lodge wanting to cause violence it's republican violence that seems to be the common theme

golden lane · 09-07-2012 7:34pm

junder wrote: »

No it couldn't the lodge can apply in its own right and as it has been granted permission. However considering the comments on this thread it wasn't the threat of orange violence that led to the parade being canceled, it was the threat of republican violence and it was the lodge themselves that called of the parade do that they wouldn't be held responsable for any violence. As for the clean up costs what clean up costs a lodge and a band (which will also must likely be from the republic) can't really see to many people being around to watch it except maybe for friends and family do can't see any cleanup costs.
Still waiting for an answer as to what the orange represents in your flag?

well, i agree with it being granted permission....and am very delighted that they have themselves called it off.....

sense at last in irish politics.....

there will be a time in the future when i will be delighted for all sections to celebrate their uniqueness......but i believe this is not the right time....

junder · 09-07-2012 7:39pm

Happyman42 wrote: »

junder wrote: »

Considering the vitriol poured onto the orange order and the hatred (bigotry) shown towards it and the people that celebrate it, mind telling me what the orange in your flag represents?

It certainly doesn't represent those who have loyalty to the crown or who see themselves as religious defenders in a secular republic. Which is what we are now.

junder wrote: »

These members of the Dublin and Wicklow lodge live in the republic, why on earth would they want to cause a riot when they would have to live with the consequences. They don't have to have a parade to show how they are hated in the republic one look at comments such as your own would confirm that. Its really frustrating having to repeat myself but this is not THE orange order asking to parade in Dublin but a small local lodge wanting to parade in thier own capital city.

If all they want to do is march, why haven't they applied for a permit to join the St. Patrick's Day parade?
Ater all they claim their own 'special' ownership of him on that site.

So what you are saying is the orange in your flag does not represent the orange / unionist community which we are constantly told it does

Happyman42 · 09-07-2012 7:51pm

junder wrote: »

As it happens they were invited to take part in the saint Patricks parade back in 2000 think the Dublin city coucil had this crazy idea of having all the cultures in Dublin represented at the millennium saint Patrick's parade, again it was the threat of republican violence that ment the invitation had to be rescinded. Ironically for all the accusations of the orange lodge wanting to cause violence it's republican violence that seems to be the common theme

I'm not aware of the Dublin invitation but when invited to the parade in Cork, Sinn Fein 'objected' because they where still a sectarian organisation. There was no threat of violence from any republican organisation, they were asked by Gardai in Cork not to parade with flags or regalia but they refused. So, not an order willing to change.

Happyman42 · 09-07-2012 7:53pm

junder wrote: »

So what you are saying is the orange in your flag does not represent the orange / unionist community which we are constantly told it does

It represents the Unionist tradition (nobody is asking them to forget their past, but in the republic their aspiration is historical), it DOES NOT represent those with loyalty to anoher state.

junder · 09-07-2012 8:16pm

Happyman42 wrote: »

junder wrote: »

As it happens they were invited to take part in the saint Patricks parade back in 2000 think the Dublin city coucil had this crazy idea of having all the cultures in Dublin represented at the millennium saint Patrick's parade, again it was the threat of republican violence that ment the invitation had to be rescinded. Ironically for all the accusations of the orange lodge wanting to cause violence it's republican violence that seems to be the common theme

I'm not aware of the Dublin invitation but when invited to the parade in Cork, Sinn Fein 'objected' because they where still a sectarian organisation. There was no threat of violence from any republican organisation, they were asked by Gardai in Cork not to parade with flags or regalia but they refused. So, not an order willing to change.

Did that regalia include thier sash's

Happyman42 · 09-07-2012 8:42pm

junder wrote: »

Did that regalia include thier sash's

I have no idea. I would imagine it was the more offensive drums and banners.

It's interesting that they refused this request when you see that when they where written to by the Synod of the church they pretend to defend about their behaviour at the Church Of Ireland at Drumcree, they refused to answer the letter. This organisation is a bullish law onto itself it seems, won't reform or change.

poeticseraphim · 09-07-2012 8:45pm

Happyman42 wrote: »

I don't believe you displayed any of the traits and I don't use the term as an insult. But there are plenty Irish born people in the south who see themselves as British first. Read this as a classic essay on confused identity. http://www.dublin1313.com/site/2011/06/12/what-is-britishness/

Link back to the Dublin - Wicklow OO site for an even more profound example of confusion. Separated from it's more baltantly bigoted sister organisation in the North, and in an attempt (failed imo) to hide it's inherent bigotry, this southern organisation doesn't quite know if it is a society for 'expat British people' an 'organsiation for the defence of the Protestant faith' or an 'organistion to defend against the despotic exploits of the Roman Church', but it is quite clear to me that they don't want anything to do with an Irish republic. Quite clearly their loyalty is to the Crown and to Britian, quite a preposterous stance in 2012 for Irish citizens to take. That is why you will never see them parade an Irish Tricolour.
All of which is fine and relatively harmless but in that confusion has grown an organisation that fosters bigotry and hate, kept under wraps in the South (as best they can, but there is plenty of it on that site) probably because of fear of reprisal, but very evident every time the Northern organisation takes to the streets. Read some of the mockery and **** stirring articles on that site about the Irish state and notice how there is not one about some of the immoral shennanigans the crown has gotten up to over the years. It's laughable if it wasn't so serious. We can't afford to give this organisation any credibility in it's present set-up. To allow them to march in Dublin would be a huge mistake.

http://www.dublin1313.com/site/

What a weird site...

The speech appeared to be by David Hume.

And even in it it admitted that the Irish Orange lodge was not politically British in the Republic.

I hold to my assertion that there is no such thing as an Irish Unionist.

If there is, What does one look like and how many legs does one have??

I personally think if you fight it you give them importance.

Shrug it off and they see how little it matters.

Seriously ...WE won....democracy won....

We are a republic... we the people are sovreign ...

We protect this by protecting our govts accountabilty and our laws and rights all of which have greater threats than this.

It annoys me that a tiny group of ritualists are seen as a bigger threat than FF were. I mean if we could rally up have as much protest amongst people against corruption as there was for the visit by a foreign head of state or a group of 90 yr old men with flags and weird ideas we could get somewhere.

We have our priorities skewed.

There really is no such thing as an Irish Unionist .....maybe unionists in the north wish there was but there is not ....it's false pr.. they don't exist ..if NI Unionists ever brave it enough to actually travel to to Dublin they would be very disillusioned.

The term 'West Brit' it's a term that also belongs in the past...there are people who are Half English and Half Irish there are London Irish and there are people who carry Irish passports with English accents...i don't claim to speak for them but i would say all of them support the right of Irish self determination...but honestly lets not make a derogatory term out of the word Brit.....seriously some of them are not that bad..

There is no wish to be a part of the commonwealth or whatever in the Rep..at any level.despite what some crank from the internet would have you believe

And if the OO are spouting that crap on the internet and in the north they are lying and setting themselves up for a huge wake up call.
Especially if they are telling their members their members their might be some hope for a type of United Ireland within the Common wealth.
That is an IMPOSSIBILTY for many many reasons. The biggest one being there is no desire for it. I don't want to rage against it as i am sensitve to the fact that other countries do belong to it.

..i am ambivalent about the OO but if they are prepared to stand against bigatory and respect the existance and right to existance of our state then maybe we should let them be and march....

I am Irish .my parents are sort of catholic ..I am not ..nor do i consider myself christian ... not atheist but spiritual...not not completely irrational.....i am also a secularist..I am a Dubliner i am a southie who says RIOSH ...and a leftie...i am Irish and proud ....I have no time for SF and FF and their lies (and probably the rest of them to be honest) and if some can't get their heads around this then they need to join the 21st century.....

junder · 09-07-2012 8:53pm

Happyman42 wrote: »

junder wrote: »

Did that regalia include thier sash's

I have no idea. I would imagine it was the more offensive drums and banners.

It's interesting that they refused this request when you see that when they where written to by the Synod of the church they pretend to defend about their behaviour at the Church Of Ireland at Drumcree, they refused to answer the letter. This organisation is a bullish law onto itself it seems, won't reform or change.

So you say, since the orange lodge is not s band they don't carry drums so not sure what you mean there also exactly what is offensive about drum? The banners for the most part dipict scenes from the bible do again whats offensive about. Do you know what was depicted on this lodges banner? Perhaps you should find out if they were talking about them not being able to walk with thier sashs seems a bit pointless to
Offer an invitation to an orange lodge on
The condition they don't walk as orange men

celtictiger32 · 09-07-2012 8:54pm

poeticseraphim wrote: »

What a weird site...

The speech appeared to be by David Hume.

And even in it it admitted that the Irish Orange lodge was not politically British in the Republic.

I hold to my assertion that there is no such thing as an Irish Unionist.

If there is, What does one look like and how many legs does one have??

I personally think if you fight it you give them importance.

Shrug it off and they see how little it matters.

Seriously ...WE won....democracy won....

We are a republic... we the people are sovreign ...

We protect this by protecting our govts accountabilty and our laws and rights all of which have greater threats than this.

It annoys me that a tiny group of ritualists are seen as a bigger threat than FF were. I mean if we could rally up have as much protest amongst people against corruption as there was for the visit by a foreign head of state or a group of 90 yr old men with flags and weird ideas we could get somewhere.

We have our priorities skewed.

There really is no such thing as an Irish Unionist .....maybe unionists in the north wish there was but there is not ....it's false pr.. they don't exist ..if NI Unionists ever brave it enough to actually travel to to Dublin they would be very disillusioned.

The term 'West Brit' it's a term that also belongs in the past...there are people who are Half English and Half Irish there are London Irish and there are people who carry Irish passports with English accents...i don't claim to speak for them but i would say all of them support the right of Irish self determination...but honestly lets not make a derogatory term out of the word Brit.....seriously some of them are not that bad..

There is no wish to be a part of the commonwealth or whatever in the Rep..at any level.despite what some crank from the internet would have you believe

And if the OO are spouting that crap on the internet and in the north they are lying and setting themselves up for a huge wake up call.
Especially if they are telling their members their members their might be some hope for a type of United Ireland within the Common wealth.
That is an IMPOSSIBILTY for many many reasons. The biggest one being there is no desire for it. I don't want to rage against it as i am sensitve to the fact that other countries do belong to it.

..i am ambivalent about the OO but if they are prepared to stand against bigatory and respect the existance and right to existance of our state then maybe we should let them be and march....

I am Irish .my parents are sort of catholic ..I am not ..nor do i consider myself christian ... not atheist but spiritual...not not completely irrational.....i am also a secularist..I am a Dubliner i am a southie who says RIOSH ...and a leftie...i am Irish and proud ....I have no time for SF and FF and their lies (and probably the rest of them to be honest) and if some can't get their heads around this then they need to join the 21st century.....

try telling all that to the guy on a certain radio station who was spouting out unionist crap proposing we should become a part of britain. think he was part of an 'irish dup'.

junder · 09-07-2012 8:58pm

Happyman42 wrote: »

junder wrote: »

So what you are saying is the orange in your flag does not represent the orange / unionist community which we are constantly told it does

It represents the Unionist tradition (nobody is asking them to forget their past, but in the republic their aspiration is historical), it DOES NOT represent those with loyalty to anoher state.

So in other words it only represents those who are loyal to the Irish state and only the Irish state, so I guess it does not represent the many different ethnic minority's living in the republic that still Maintain a loyalty to thier old country. Also good to know that you are admitting to the fact the orange does not represent the unionist community
Regardless of what side of the border they live on, since that is the case, why not go ahead and get rid of the orange bit just have a green and white flag

Happyman42 · 09-07-2012 9:11pm

junder wrote: »

So in other words it only represents those who are loyal to the Irish state and only the Irish state, so I guess it does not represent the many different ethnic minority's living in the republic that still Maintain a loyalty to thier old country. Also good to know that you are admitting to the fact the orange does not represent the unionist community
Regardless of what side of the border they live on, since that is the case, why not go ahead and get rid of the orange bit just have a green and white flag

It's quite simple junder and maybe you need to do some research on what it means,
The Green, represents the followers of the Gaelic tradition, The Orange represents the traditions of the the followers of William of Orange and The White represents Peace and Harmony between them.
Again, it does not represent and was never meant to represent those with loyalty or allegiance to another state.

SocSocPol · 09-07-2012 9:17pm

Happyman42 wrote: »

It's quite simple junder and maybe you need to do some research on what it means,
The Green, represents the followers of the Gaelic tradition, The Orange represents the traditions of the the followers of William of Orange and The White represents Peace and Harmony between them.
Again, it does not represent and was never meant to represent those with loyalty or allegiance to another state.

so seldom we agree Happyman, but in this case you are correct. The Irish flag represents diverse traditions within one nation and one state.

junder · 09-07-2012 9:24pm

SocSocPol wrote: »

Happyman42 wrote: »

It's quite simple junder and maybe you need to do some research on what it means,
The Green, represents the followers of the Gaelic tradition, The Orange represents the traditions of the the followers of William of Orange and The White represents Peace and Harmony between them.
Again, it does not represent and was never meant to represent those with loyalty or allegiance to another state.

so seldom we agree Happyman, but in this case you are correct. The Irish flag represents diverse traditions within one nation and one state.

According to Happyman apparently it represents the Irish and only the Irish

junder · 09-07-2012 9:27pm

Happyman42 wrote: »

junder wrote: »

So in other words it only represents those who are loyal to the Irish state and only the Irish state, so I guess it does not represent the many different ethnic minority's living in the republic that still Maintain a loyalty to thier old country. Also good to know that you are admitting to the fact the orange does not represent the unionist community
Regardless of what side of the border they live on, since that is the case, why not go ahead and get rid of the orange bit just have a green and white flag

It's quite simple junder and maybe you need to do some research on what it means,
The Green, represents the followers of the Gaelic tradition, The Orange represents the traditions of the the followers of William of Orange and The White represents Peace and Harmony between them.
Again, it does not represent and was never meant to represent those with loyalty or allegiance to another state.

Since the orange order still swares loyalty to queen regardless of what side of the border they come from then the orange of your flag clearly does not represent them do why keep it, just have a green and white flag

Happyman42 · 09-07-2012 9:30pm

junder wrote: »

According to Happyman apparently it represents the Irish and only the Irish

It represents the citizens of Ireland...all of them.

junder · 09-07-2012 9:33pm

Happyman42 wrote: »

junder wrote: »

According to Happyman apparently it represents the Irish and only the Irish

It represents the citizens of Ireland...all of them.

According to your own words it does not represent those that feel loyalty to another country

poeticseraphim · 09-07-2012 9:33pm

celtictiger32 wrote: »

try telling all that to the guy on a certain radio station who was spouting out unionist crap proposing we should become a part of britain. think he was part of an 'irish dup'.

Who?? What radio station hardly RTE??

Anyway we can't ...constitution...referendum....never happen...seriously

Love the law

Who cares what some idiot crank thinks.

Shea O'Meara · 09-07-2012 9:33pm

junder wrote: »

No it couldn't the lodge can apply in its own right and as it has been granted permission. However considering the comments on this thread it wasn't the threat of orange violence that led to the parade being canceled, it was the threat of republican violence and it was the lodge themselves that called of the parade do that they wouldn't be held responsable for any violence.

That's the point, Orange Grand Secretary Drew Nelson, (which part of Wicklow is he from again?) knows full well there is a strong chance of trouble from Republicans and that, in my view, is the only reason he's putting it on the table.
They can wave antiquated banners or division...nicely....and the rowdy Fenians go burning the place. That's the plan, pure and simple.

Happyman42 · 09-07-2012 9:36pm

junder wrote: »

Since the orange order still swares loyalty to queen regardless of what side of the border they come from then the orange of your flag clearly does not represent them do why keep it, just have a green and white flag

And who do you think is out of kilter? A sovereign country or a minority, patetically stuck in the past, swearing allegiance to another head of state? What would happen if an Orangeman got to be Taoiseach.....spot any problems there?:rolleyes:

junder · 09-07-2012 9:44pm

Happyman42 wrote: »

junder wrote: »

Since the orange order still swares loyalty to queen regardless of what side of the border they come from then the orange of your flag clearly does not represent them do why keep it, just have a green and white flag

And who do you think is out of kilter? A sovereign country or a minority, patetically stuck in the past, swearing allegiance to another head of state? What would happen if an Orangeman got to be Taoiseach.....spot any problems there?:rolleyes:

That presupposes that an orange man or women would want to be taoiseach moreover why is it that different to a stanch roman catholic Taoiseach who has a loyalty to another head of state in the form of the pope, since such loyalty in the past directed Irish state policy?

junder · 09-07-2012 9:46pm

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

junder wrote: »

No it couldn't the lodge can apply in its own right and as it has been granted permission. However considering the comments on this thread it wasn't the threat of orange violence that led to the parade being canceled, it was the threat of republican violence and it was the lodge themselves that called of the parade do that they wouldn't be held responsable for any violence.

That's the point, Orange Grand Secretary Drew Nelson, (which part of Wicklow is he from again?) knows full well there is a strong chance of trouble from Republicans and that, in my view, is the only reason he's putting it on the table.
They can wave antiquated banners or division...nicely....and the rowdy Fenians go burning the place. That's the plan, pure and simple.

So what your saying is that republicans are really easy to manipulate. Here's a crazy idea why not let the lodge have thier parade and then not riot, that would really scupper nelson's plan wouldn't it

laoch na mona · 09-07-2012 9:51pm

junder wrote: »

According to Happyman apparently it represents the Irish and only the Irish

well yes it is the irish flag

Happyman42 · 09-07-2012 9:53pm

junder wrote: »

That presupposes that an orange man or women would want to be taoiseach moreover why is it that different to a stanch roman catholic Taoiseach who has a loyalty to another head of state in the form of the pope, since such loyalty in the past directed Irish state policy?

We have had Protestant and Catholic Taosigh, none of them swore allegiance to another head of state. If you are struggling, no need to resort to trolling.
It is time for this order to release (if not themselves) future generations from this ridiculous, assumed allegiance to something they can never be. I might just as well tell myself, I feel Mexican, therefore I am. The alternative is to just up sticks and go somewhere where you can prosper.

junder · 09-07-2012 10:09pm

Happyman42 wrote: »

junder wrote: »

That presupposes that an orange man or women would want to be taoiseach moreover why is it that different to a stanch roman catholic Taoiseach who has a loyalty to another head of state in the form of the pope, since such loyalty in the past directed Irish state policy?

We have had Protestant and Catholic Taosigh, none of them swore allegiance to another head of state. If you are struggling, no need to resort to trolling.
It is time for this order to release (if not themselves) future generations from this ridiculous, assumed allegiance to something they can never be. I might just as well tell myself, I feel Mexican, therefore I am. The alternative is to just up sticks and go somewhere where you can prosper.

Who's trolling, Vatican policy has had a direct influence on Irish state policy in the past from contraception to divorce certinly more influence then any British monarchy. Moreover I am sure that any Irish politican who was found out to be a member of the orange lodge would be hounded out of government so it's unlikey they would become Taoiseach even if in the unlikely event that they wanted to be one and even if they did I doubt very much they would launch any campaign bring the republic back into the uk but even if they did as long as its done within the democratic system in
The republic again is that legal if doomed to failure. Moreover since the orange order is a voluntary group exactly who do they need to realease?

Happyman42 · 09-07-2012 10:22pm

junder wrote: »

Who's trolling, Vatican policy has had a direct influence on Irish state policy in the past from contraception to divorce certinly more influence then any British monarchy. Moreover I am sure that any Irish politican who was found out to be a member of the orange lodge would be hounded out of government so it's unlikey they would become Taoiseach even if in the unlikely event that they wanted to be one and even if they did I doubt very much they would launch any campaign bring the republic back into the uk but even if they did as long as its done within the democratic system in
The republic again is that legal if doomed to failure. Moreover since the orange order is a voluntary group exactly who do they need to realease?

You are correct, but the important word is 'influence' though, there was no 'allegiance sworn' or no 'loyalty' given to another head of state.
The crucial difference is this state has moved on,something the Orange Order seem unable to do. The past is the past. It is now a secular government. No Orangeman or woman can rise to the top of the political ladder in Ireland because of their allegiance to the crown. That is a sad and pathetic thing to tell your children. You can only achieve so much in the land you where born in and where generations of your forebears where born. They need to release their future children from the yoke of a false identity. It will happen anyway, as orangeism is in decline, but they have the power to short circuit that by dropping the hidebound enslavement to a bogus history. That is progressive. As poeticserapim says, there is no such thing as an Irish Unionist. That title will go to SF and those who campaign for a United Ireland.

junder · 09-07-2012 10:30pm

Happyman42 wrote: »

junder wrote: »

Who's trolling, Vatican policy has had a direct influence on Irish state policy in the past from contraception to divorce certinly more influence then any British monarchy. Moreover I am sure that any Irish politican who was found out to be a member of the orange lodge would be hounded out of government so it's unlikey they would become Taoiseach even if in the unlikely event that they wanted to be one and even if they did I doubt very much they would launch any campaign bring the republic back into the uk but even if they did as long as its done within the democratic system in
The republic again is that legal if doomed to failure. Moreover since the orange order is a voluntary group exactly who do they need to realease?

You are correct, but the important word is 'influence' though, there was no 'allegiance sworn' or no 'loyalty' given to another head of state.
The crucial difference is this state has moved on,something the Orange Order seem unable to do. The past is the past. It is now a secular government. No Orangeman or woman can rise to the top of the political ladder in Ireland because of their allegiance to the crown. That is a sad and pathetic thing to tell your children. You can only achieve so much in the land you where born in and where generations of your forebears where born. They need to release their future children from the yoke of a false identity. It will happen anyway, as orangeism is in decline, but they have the power to short circuit that by dropping the hidebound enslavement to a bogus history. That is progressive. As poeticserapim says, there is no such thing as an Irish Unionist. That title will go to SF and those who campaign for a United Ireland.

And you have the nerve to call us a backward country

A dublin orange parade?

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