How do fellow atheists feel about magicians?

doctoremma

Plausibly no link to atheism and therefore in the wrong forum, apologies in advance...

I find it excruciating to watch magicians when I don't understand how they do their tricks. I had to remove myself from a TV programme last night ("Dynamo, Magician Impossible") because I couldn't work out how he was doing most of his stuff. I find myself Googling for explanations because i need to know what's happening.

I can watch people like Derren Brown quite happily, as I know that's just headology.

My husband, a skeptic with zero interest in supernatural (it's not worth his brain time), can watch "trick magicians" quite happily, marvelling at their skill but not wanting to spoil it by finding the answer.

How do you guys feel when you watch a magician? Do you think the type of brain that makes one an atheist makes a magical act something to dissect?

Penn

doctoremma wrote: »

Plausibly no link to atheism and therefore in the wrong forum, apologies in advance...

I find it excruciating to watch magicians when I don't understand how they do their tricks. I had to remove myself from a TV programme last night ("Dynamo, Magician Impossible") because I couldn't work out how he was doing most of his stuff. I find myself Googling for explanations because i need to know what's happening.

I can watch people like Derren Brown quite happily, as I know that's just headology.

My husband, a skeptic with zero interest in supernatural (it's not worth his brain time), can watch "trick magicians" quite happily, marvelling at their skill but not wanting to spoil it by finding the answer.

How do you guys feel when you watch a magician? Do you think the type of brain that makes one an atheist makes a magical act something to dissect?

I'm happier when I can't figure out how it's done. I know it's a trick. I know there is no real magic involved. But if the magician has spent so much time practicing something or it's so well planned that I just cannot figure out how it's done, that's brilliant. It's the skill, thought process and planning that makes a good magic trick. Even if you can figure out how it's done, the skill involved is still a sight to behold sometimes. But I do always try to figure out how it's done. Can't help myself.

doctoremma

Penn wrote: »

I know there is no real magic involved. But if the magician has spent so much time practicing something or it's so well planned that I just cannot figure out how it's done, that's brilliant. It's the skill, thought process and planning that makes a good magic trick. Even if you can figure out how it's done, the skill involved is still a sight to behold sometimes.

I absolutely agree, and probably the mark of great and fantastically skilled performer that it winds people up so much

Sarky

I love a good magic trick. Each one is a reminder of how easily people can be fooled by someone with quick hands and an agile mind. It's like a good plot twist in a book; who doesn't like reading that last line and thinking "ooh, you clever bastard"?

kylith

I enjoy watching them, full in the knowledge that it's a trick, and then I google it later cos I hate not knowing. Nearly had a row with my SiL over one once, she was unable to accept that street magicians use stooges, and was in the 'you can't explain all of it, so I won't accept your explanation of any of it' camp. She's an atheist to, so there you go - some atheists still believe in nonsense like 'magic'.

fitz0

I like magicians because they remind me just how easy it is to make something look like magic. I especially like them when they use their powers for good like teh Amazing Randi, exposing lesser fraudsters for the public good.

Otacon

I was watching a show over the weekend, something like '50 Best Magic Tricks' or something. I think it was on Watch [109].

Anyway, IIRC, it was during the David Blaine levitation trick that I got annoyed. Not at the trick, but at the reaction interview afterwards, where a 20-something American girl said something along the lines of 'He must be really in touch with spirits, or must be very spiritual, to pull that off. Amazing'.

doctoremma

Otacon wrote: »

Anyway, IIRC, it was during the David Blaine levitation trick that I got annoyed. Not at the trick, but at the reaction interview afterwards, where a 20-something American girl said something along the lines of 'He must be really in touch with spirits, or must be very spiritual, to pull that off. Amazing'.

Have just read a discussion thread where the likes of David Blaine/Dynamo are criticised for performing "impossible" tricks.

Apparently, there is a fear that this engenders suspicion in the audience and means that the whole reputation of magic is ruined, even for those who perform the "possible but highly skilled" sleight-of-hand stuff which has entertained us for many years.

I guess your story illustrates that such a fear is ungrounded

seamus

Yeah, I do enjoy watching it too when I don't know how it's done. My brain is overclocking, trying to figure out how it's done, but I still enjoy it because I know it's all an elaborate illusion. And like others I strongly appreciate the amount of work the magician has put into his craft to make it appear so seamless and mystical.

I do also like to see how it's done, and then see the trick again to once more appreciate the fact that even though I know how it's done, I still wouldn't have the skill and showmanship to pull it off.

I actually prefer magicians like Penn & Teller or Derren Brown who upfront tell you that it's all an illusion and there's no mysticism involved. It's just fooling the brain into seeing what they want you to see.

The likes of David Blaine who create either a false or delusional pretence of having mystical powers, get on my nerves.

Real Life

Dynamo is a ridiculously great magician

smokingman

I appreciate a good magician but I love the bad ones!
I watched people like Tommy Cooper on the bbc variety shows growing up and remember thinking to myself, "this guy is doing more to make people aware that magic isn't real than anyone I know".

Also helped that he was funny in a terribly pathetic way...which made him funnier.

Sarky

I think it took genuine skill at magic tricks to be as bad at it as Tommy Cooper. He pulled off the occasional good trick too. Now I think of it, I suspect the bumbling leading up to a genuine trick was a clever way of lowering the audience's expectations.

Orim

smokingman wrote: »

I appreciate a good magician but I love the bad ones!
I watched people like Tommy Cooper on the bbc variety shows growing up and remember thinking to myself, "this guy is doing more to make people aware that magic isn't real than anyone I know".

Also helped that he was funny in a terribly pathetic way...which made him funnier.

My understanding of Tommy Cooper is that he was quite an accomplished magician and this can be seen when he did tricks correctly or "messed" them up in a spectacular fashion. He just found that he got better reactions with poor magic and the comedy.

I do love magicians, especially ones that perform sleight of hand or headology type tricks. The type that are up front that it's trick and technically everything you need to know to figure out the trick is right there in front of you. I wouldn't look up the tricks but I would try to figure them out.

seamus

Sarky wrote: »

I think it took genuine skill at magic tricks to be as bad at it as Tommy Cooper.

I agree. I think the only thing harder than mastering a skill, is to pretend convincingly to be bad at it when you've mastered it.

Reminds me of Les Dawson, who was an exceptionally talented pianist but had a series of sketches which involved playing the piano like a beginner while smiliing obliviously like a moron. As a musician myself, pretending to play badly is really difficult.

fergalr

Only somewhat related to the topic:

I was in Seattle science museum a while ago.
They had a show (think it ran daily) called "amazing psychic powers".
It was mainly aimed at kids, but there were plenty of adults in the audience, too.

It was like a magic show, where the host, the magician, would ask for volunteers, and would perform magic tricks on them. I don't remember the exact tricks, but things like telling which card the volunteer had picked, simple cold-readings, things like that.

As an adult it was easy to see through most of the tricks, but not so easy for the kids.

But what was cool was that after he had convinced the kids that each trick was real, he then started to explain how the trick was done - kind of like 'but what if I had really done this - [...] - would that also explain it?' and the kids gradually realised what had actually happened, and how the trick worked.

It was really cool. Some of the tricks were quite simple (a concealed mirror) but I think one of them introduced simple bayesian ideas ('which explanation do you think is more likely, given what you already know about how things work?'/'extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence' - kind of thing).

I thought it was a really good and fun introduction to critical thinking for kids; and I reckon most adults would learn something from it too.

More magic and magician shows of that sort would be great!

sbsquarepants

Penn wrote: »

I'm happier when I can't figure out how it's done. I know it's a trick. I know there is no real magic involved.

Same, I watched that show with the guy in the mask who shows how the tricks are done and i was very disappointed afterwards. It's better when you can't figure it out - i do get annoyed at myself for not seeing what is straight in front of me, but being the odd ball that i am, i actually like that!

magicbastarder

magicians creep me out.

FouxDaFaFa

I like magicians. Well, most of them.

Some are just great showmen and are entertaining to watch. I like watching people like Derren Brown because it's interesting how he uses language and gestures to lead a participant.

Hypnotists creep me out a bit. A lot of their shows are mean-spirited towards the audience members they use and it's uncomfortable.

It's great fun figuring out how tricks are done. Misdirection, cold-reading, sleights of hand. Love it.

King Mob

Some of us are both.

ZeitgeistGlee

Always been a huge fan of magicians, I love that faint line between rationally knowing something has to be possible and that instantaneous reaction of disbelief when you see something that looks impossible. Caught a programme on Sky showing of Dynamo in the US and he's hands down the best I've ever seen, was absolutely glued to the TV till the credits.

Oddly I also love seeing how tricks are done, sure it takes some of the "magic" out of it but it also leaves you with a profound respect for something thinking up the trick in the first place. Of course I'm the type of person who absolutely has to peek at his Christmas presents before the 25th too.

mcmoustache

King Mob wrote: »

Some of us are both.

Magicians - Experts in the art of deceit. It's probably why they can spot bull**** so easily.


Personally, I love magic (no 'k'). I love being tricked (when it costs feck all) and then trying to work out how I was tricked.

johnmcdnl

Enjoy watching a good magician - tend to spend a while after seeing a trick trying to figure it out in my head how they did it or just rewatch the trick a few times if it's on youtube or whatever... generally I fail at trying to comprehend how it works naturally enough so it's is lucky I have Google to turn to.

Even after seeing how the trick is done on Google it rarely spoils it for me - because in 95% of cases if I tried doing the trick knowing how it works I'd still make a balls of it....

A good half the enjoyment of it for me is watching it again after seeing how it works so I can really appreciate the skill levels and speed of hands and such of the magicians. When you know what your looking for and see what exactly is done you really do appreciate the trick even more I think. Even when you go to watch it again knowing what your looking out for you can often miss the sleight of hand or whatever it is which really does go to show the skill level involved.

Conclusions - Magicians are great :cool: but god damn it if your gonna try to trick me without me figuring it out at some stage :pac:

Gbear

I love penn and teller for this kind of stuff:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8osRaFTtgHo

The kinds of tricks they tend to expose tend not to be the really serious ones.

They do seem to respect the integrity of really amazing ones like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjDcARq8ty8

Baffling stuff.

As long as a magician isn't a bull**** artist like cold readers pretending to talk to the dead I love to watch them and don't mind too much if they like to keep some trade secrets.

StupidLikeAFox

Thread reminded me of this!

Oranage2

Magicians for the most part are harmless usually slide of hand or smoke and mirrors but there are dangerous sorcerous' out there that dable in the dark arts and other ungodly practices that we should be wary of.

Ciaran0

Oranage2 wrote: »

Magicians for the most part are harmless usually slide of hand or smoke and mirrors but there are dangerous sorcerous' out there that dable in the dark arts and other ungodly practices that we should be wary of.

ShooterSF

I love Magic and have actually dabbled in it as a hobby and have a few books on the subject. I think my interest these days in the nonsense of the supernatural is the same fascination I have in how people are tricked.
Also I can't believe this thread is as big as it is without the name James Randi being mentioned!

Can't link to a video at the moment but what a great contributor to both magic and scepticism. My idol!

Liamario

I might be misreading the OP, but I don't think magicians claim that they are actually magical. I don't see the issue.

ShooterSF

Liamario wrote: »

I might be misreading the OP

I can confirm your hypothesis

Orim

Liamario wrote: »

I might be misreading the OP, but I don't think magicians claim that they are actually magical. I don't see the issue.

Yet some people will choose to believe that magic is real and there wasn't always a plethora of magicians showing the solutions so it would have been more common in the past.

It's not so much an issue that the OP has, just a general wonderment if athesists would be more inclined towards trying to figure out a magicians trick as opposed to just letting themselves be fooled by the show.

Liamario

ShooterSF wrote: »

I can confirm your hypothesis

I concur with your diagnosis.

krudler

Oranage2 wrote: »

Magicians for the most part are harmless usually slide of hand or smoke and mirrors but there are dangerous sorcerous' out there that dable in the dark arts and other ungodly practices that we should be wary of.

This is actually true, while most magicians are of the stage variety and harmless, there are some who practice actual magic, there are steps being taken to protect us from though, certain kids with an aptitude for magic are being given "defence against the dark arts" classes masquerading as home ecomonics. There some secret school someplace that trains kids in all this stuff, but its enchanted so you cant see it if you're a normal non magic or "muggle". I reckon its in Mayo.

fergalr

krudler wrote: »

This is actually true, while most magicians are of the stage variety and harmless, there are some who practice actual magic, there are steps being taken to protect us from though, certain kids with an aptitude for magic are being given "defence against the dark arts" classes masquerading as home ecomonics. There some secret school someplace that trains kids in all this stuff, but its enchanted so you cant see it if you're a normal non magic or "muggle". I reckon its in Mayo.

At last, an explanation for home economics.


Wikipedia has an article "Magic (paranormal)" and a different article "Magic (illusion)"
That's maybe not a bad semantic distinction to have, in a discussion like this. (Not sure about the articles themselves).

sbsquarepants

Paranormal magic isn't much of a problem in Ireland thankfully, but there are places where it causes serious consequences. In south africa for example the ritual murders of kids by witch doctors to make magic potions is scarily common place.

Corkfeen

Oranage2 wrote: »

Magicians for the most part are harmless usually slide of hand or smoke and mirrors but there are dangerous sorcerous' out there that dable in the dark arts and other ungodly practices that we should be wary of.

Indeed..
Ralph Fiennes before he started engaging in magic..

Post magic using.

The nose was actually as a result of a cocaine problem but the blue skin is for ungodly practises like fornication and dark arts... I can't help but despair for these magicians. :pac:

doctoremma

krudler wrote: »

This is actually true, while most magicians are of the stage variety and harmless, there are some who practice actual magic, there are steps being taken to protect us from though, certain kids with an aptitude for magic are being given "defence against the dark arts" classes masquerading as home ecomonics. There some secret school someplace that trains kids in all this stuff, but its enchanted so you cant see it if you're a normal non magic or "muggle". I reckon its in Mayo.

Started reading with open-mouthed horror, realised too slowly where it was headed, changed expression to make it seem as if I got it all along.....

kylith

krudler wrote: »

This is actually true, while most magicians are of the stage variety and harmless, there are some who practice actual magic, there are steps being taken to protect us from though, certain kids with an aptitude for magic are being given "defence against the dark arts" classes masquerading as home ecomonics. There some secret school someplace that trains kids in all this stuff, but its enchanted so you cant see it if you're a normal non magic or "muggle". I reckon its in Mayo.

Don't be daft, it's Leitrim. No-one's ever been to Leitrim. Anyone who claims to be from Leitrim is in the pay of the government just to try obfusticate the existance of this special school.

Sycopat

I love magicians and tricks. I like knowing how it works, but I can still appreciate it when I don't.

However, I can't stand watching street magician shows. Some of it's fine, particularly the more sleight of hand and traditional stuff(card tricks, coin tricks etc) but a lot of it just doesn't do it for me. I think it might be because they tend to be american made, and I can't stand that 'here's a minute telling you what I've already done, a minute telling you what i'm going to do, two minutes doing something, a minute telling you what i did, ad break, repeat' style of television. Too much time talking themselves up and showing how astounded people are, not enough time doing magic.

Ciaran0

Sycopat wrote: »

However, I can't stand watching street magician shows. Some of it's fine, particularly the more sleight of hand and traditional stuff(card tricks, coin tricks etc) but a lot of it just doesn't do it for me. I think it might be because they tend to be american made, and I can't stand that 'here's a minute telling you what I've already done, a minute telling you what i'm going to do, two minutes doing something, a minute telling you what i did, ad break, repeat' style of television. Too much time talking themselves up and showing how astounded people are, not enough time doing magic.

I actually love david Blaine's shows

Johnny Cage

I don't believe in magic but dynamo is probably the sickest magician i have ever seen, i cant explain how he does most of his tricks but it just shows his level of skill to be able to pull them off. It's great entertainment.

HE MUST BE A ALIEN OR SUTIN :P

FouxDaFaFa

I've never heard of this Dynamo guy, I must have been living under a rock.

ShooterSF

Meant to post this earlier.

Magic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfZDwDE1yr8

Catching out a scam artist:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlfMsZwr8rc

And one of his epic lectures:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRqlvqHBVCg

Backspacer1

doctoremma wrote: »

Plausibly no link to atheism and therefore in the wrong forum, apologies in advance...

I find it excruciating to watch magicians when I don't understand how they do their tricks. I had to remove myself from a TV programme last night ("Dynamo, Magician Impossible") because I couldn't work out how he was doing most of his stuff. I find myself Googling for explanations because i need to know what's happening.

I can watch people like Derren Brown quite happily, as I know that's just headology.

My husband, a skeptic with zero interest in supernatural (it's not worth his brain time), can watch "trick magicians" quite happily, marvelling at their skill but not wanting to spoil it by finding the answer.

How do you guys feel when you watch a magician? Do you think the type of brain that makes one an atheist makes a magical act something to dissect?

In my experience an atheist mind is usualy a curious one, I react to magic in a very similar way to you, the feeling of needing to know how its done drives me mad! This is obviously a huge assumption but I guess that atheists who react to magic in a similar way to you and I probably feel that because they've figured out the slight of hand used by the religious, we should be able to figure out a simple card trick right??!!

TwoShedsJackson

If you've not seen The Prestige I'd recommend it, lots of magic and sleight-of-hand

kylith

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

If you've not seen The Prestige I'd recommend it, lots of magic and sleight-of-hand

Do no, repeat, NOT read the book. Seriously.

scouttio

To be honest if you can easily find out how a magician is doing a trick..they're not very good at it

not knowing the fun part

Gbear

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

If you've not seen The Prestige I'd recommend it, lots of magic and sleight-of-hand

I thought it was kinda awful.

It sets you up with the obvious sense that magic is a skill and it's these people's jobs - tricking people with your identical twin nobody knows of - that's class. Actual magic - tesla's magic contraption - that was stupid and ruined the film for me.

krudler

Gbear wrote: »

I thought it was kinda awful.

It sets you up with the obvious sense that magic is a skill and it's these people's jobs - tricking people with your identical twin nobody knows of - that's class. Actual magic - tesla's magic contraption - that was stupid and ruined the film for me.

no thats the best part of the films and the entire point of it. Its given away in the very first scene of the film, it TELLS you "you want to be fooled". and in that is the film's beauty you don't possibly think that

the machine actually works, you keep expecting to see the trick, but there is no trick. Its just science (not a magic machine, just science fiction).

. Its Christopher Nolan's best film imo gets better the more you watch it.

Gbear

krudler wrote: »

Its just science (not a magic machine, just science fiction).

That's my problem with it.

It clearly isn't science. They couched it in sciencey terms and had it constructed by Tesla for some street cred but it was just magic deus ex machina. It ruined the film for me. If they'd just done away with it and built the whole film on the secret twin thing, then I'd have been a happy bunny.

TwoShedsJackson

kylith wrote: »

Do no, repeat, NOT read the book. Seriously.

Actually I read the book after I saw the film and thought it was very good, I can see why they dropped the modern section for the film, but the book had a somewhat different but still really good ending, I thought.

krudler

Gbear wrote: »

That's my problem with it.

It clearly isn't science. They couched it in sciencey terms and had it constructed by Tesla for some street cred but it was just magic deus ex machina. It ruined the film for me. If they'd just done away with it and built the whole film on the secret twin thing, then I'd have been a happy bunny.

Tesla invented loads of cool sh1t, who's to say he didnt manage to make one of those machines :pac: