Ulster Bank Systems are down part 3 *READ* First post

Solair

I would actually consider seeking legal advice at this stage just to clarify what their obligations are and where you stand exactly.

It's your money that they are sending off to erroneous destinations!

It's ridiculous that they are basically electronically misplacing people's money!

They've absolutely no business paying direct debits that don't exist by running old data! Paying old bills twice is surely a breech of the DD guarantee at the very least.

This is way beyond delayed transactions or backlogs if there are erroneous transactions being put through resulting in money being removed from accounts without authorisation!

I would also consider contacting the Data Protecion Commission.

johndoe99

the amount of people that will leave UB over this will be huge, hope it hits them hard.

unkel

Vicxas wrote: »

Duplicate ESB bill from the 27th of June came out today, and now had left me stone cold broke. Rang their customer support and there was nothing they could do, they also refused to temporarily increase my OD till Monday to cover me.

That's shocking, most people have reported that UB were quite accommodating in situations like that.

Try and get their refusal on paper or email or try and record a phone call. They will have to pay compensation over that if you can prove they refused you access to your money and it caused you hardship

Can't find an email address for UB to complain to. Anyone have one? I complained by email to the financial ombudsman today. I've been more than patient in these past 3.5 weeks and things started to get updated for me, but after todays fukc up, enough is enough.

datk

unkel wrote: »

Duplicate income and duplicate UPC direct debit from last month hitting today :mad:

WTF are they doing???

I just got my end of June salary again (dated 16 July) don't suppose it's their way of saying sorry for holding on to it for a week!!!

There's also a duplicate UPC transaction. I think I'll agree to overlook both errors!!

So much for things being sorted!

Ally Dick

Achilles wrote: »

Outsourcing their IT to India was one of the complaints that I raised... hopefully somebody actually listens to that although I doubt they will.

The liars are still saying that the problem was an Edinburgh one. Hester likes to pick his words carefully.

Ally Dick

johndoe99 wrote: »

the amount of people that will leave UB over this will be huge, hope it hits them hard.

Never underestimate the willingness of the Irish sheeple to forgive and forget though. Irish are different to every other nation. They don't take action. They go to sleep at night fuming and wake up the next morning forgetting that they were mad. It's a nice quality, but it gets nothing done

Call me Al

Beer Baron wrote: »

Last week cancelled all my DDs and initiated the process of setting them up with companies myself for my new BOI account.

Left the EBS active because it was due out. It went out so I went in to cancel that DD and noticed they were ALL active again. I had taken a screen print to prove I had cancelled them.

Went into UB yesterday to clear out my account and asked for proof all my standing orders and DDs were cancelled. I was given two Standing order cancelled print outs but was told that even if I cancel my DDs companies can still go into my account and take money.

Without my permission I asked?
Yes, they can just change the originator reference?
Yes, but when I clearly direct you NOT to pay these companies, you'll still pay them.
Yes.

Will form another paragraph of my complaint. What a stupid thing to say. Companies will not change the originator reference. I work for a company using DDs and we CANNOT and WILL NOT change the originators number to get money.

Maybe the originator will change the originator number but under the terms of rue Direct Debit Guarantee your bank is OBLIGED to refund you the money and pursue the funds directly with the originator bank,if you have already cancelled the original instruction with your bank and the company.

She either very conveniently forgot this or, more worryingly never knew it in the first place.

Call me Al

Ally Dick wrote: »

Achilles wrote: »

Outsourcing their IT to India was one of the complaints that I raised... hopefully somebody actually listens to that although I doubt they will.

The liars are still saying that the problem was an Edinburgh one. Hester likes to pick his words carefully.

Have they ever once admitted over the airways that India has had any involvement in this?
I only ever hear them refer to Edinburgh.

Ally Dick

Call me Al wrote: »

Have they ever once admitted over the airways that India has had any involvement in this?
I only ever hear them refer to Edinburgh.

No. They won't admit it. The problem was caused by a product called CA-Scheduler, which was maintained and run in Edinburgh. However, the production support team of RBS, Ulster and Natwest were all moved to Chennai India three years ago, resulting in the closure of IT departments in Dublin and Edinburgh, and the loss of 1000+ IT jobs. On the night of the foul-up, the upgrade failed. It is standard procedure for the oncall production support staff to stop the overnight batch, apply the CA-Scheduler upgrade, and then run a few tests. If the upgrade fails, then someone backs out the change and the batch is rerun once the upgrade has been backed out. On the night, the Indian team doing the backout, wiped the current schedule by mistake. This resulted in no schedule in which to move forward, and blind panic set in. I know people on the inside who still work for RBS in Edinburgh. This is how I know what happened p.s. there is only a skeletal IT staff remaining in Edinburgh. Everything else has been shipped out to India

MrVestek

Ally Dick wrote: »

No. They won't admit it. The problem was caused by a product called CA-Scheduler, which was maintained and run in Edinburgh. However, the production support team of RBS, Ulster and Natwest were all moved to Chennai India three years ago, resulting in the closure of IT departments in Dublin and Edinburgh, and the loss of 1000+ IT jobs. On the night of the foul-up, the upgrade failed. It is standard procedure for the oncall production support staff to stop the overnight batch, apply the CA-Scheduler upgrade, and then run a few tests. If the upgrade fails, then someone backs out the change and the batch is rerun once the upgrade has been backed out. On the night, the Indian team doing the backout, wiped the current schedule by mistake. This resulted in no schedule in which to move forward, and blind panic set in. I know people on the inside who still work for RBS in Edinburgh. This is how I know what happened p.s. there is only a skeletal IT staff remaining in Edinburgh. Everything else has been shipped out to India

I've just started a new job and one of the new guys I started with said that he also used CA-Scheduler in another job...

According to him it's a horribly antiquated system that is prone to messing up and contingency plans always had to be put in place for times when it would eventually fail or mess up in some way shape or form.

As I said to Ulster Bank today if no contingency plans were in place either due to incompetence or inexperience then that's just absolutely unacceptable.

It's a joke it really is... an utter utter joke...

MrVestek

Ohh great I just checked my online account and a retail refund that I made on my card earlier today after returning something in a store hasn't shown up yet either.

Wow... I just love how my hard earned money is being eaten.... no sorry... STOLEN by a bank that are still earning interest off my money before I get it back.

I really can't wait to get my response from them so that I can take this further. Seeking legal advice probably isn't a bad idea either.

dub45

Solair wrote: »

I would actually consider seeking legal advice at this stage just to clarify what their obligations are and where you stand exactly.

It's your money that they are sending off to erroneous destinations!

It's ridiculous that they are basically electronically misplacing people's money!

They've absolutely no business paying direct debits that don't exist by running old data! Paying old bills twice is surely a breech of the DD guarantee at the very least.

This is way beyond delayed transactions or backlogs if there are erroneous transactions being put through resulting in money being removed from accounts without authorisation!

I would also consider contacting the Data Protecion Commission.

Have you ever actually read the DD "guarantee" ? It is absolutely worthless and deliberately misleading!

dub45

Beer Baron wrote: »

Last week cancelled all my DDs and initiated the process of setting them up with companies myself for my new BOI account.

Left the EBS active because it was due out. It went out so I went in to cancel that DD and noticed they were ALL active again. I had taken a screen print to prove I had cancelled them.

Went into UB yesterday to clear out my account and asked for proof all my standing orders and DDs were cancelled. I was given two Standing order cancelled print outs but was told that even if I cancel my DDs companies can still go into my account and take money.

Without my permission I asked?
Yes, they can just change the originator reference?
Yes, but when I clearly direct you NOT to pay these companies, you'll still pay them.
Yes.

Will form another paragraph of my complaint. What a stupid thing to say. Companies will not change the originator reference. I work for a company using DDs and we CANNOT and WILL NOT change the originators number to get money.

There is apparently nothing to stop any company changing the reference except perhaps honesty! Rare enough these days!

Unfortunately the UB employee was being truthful with you - the banks cannot detect a resubmitted dd if a reference has been changed. And it is quite common for companies to do this. there are plenty of reports on boards of them doing so. In fact there was a recent post here which mention a bank employee joking about regular offenders in this regard.

Disgracefully there are no consequences for companies who behave this way.

The dd scheme rules state:

Paying Banks:
o must adhere to the Rules of the Scheme
o must put in place processes which will ensure that unauthorised, refused and/or cancelled
Direct Debits are intercepted and returned immediately on presentation

Processes to "intercept" cancelled Direct Debits are not in place. That is a fact. So the first that banks hear about a cancelled dd being paid is when a customer complains about it!

It is extraordinary that the Central Bank who have been so vociferous in criticising Ulster Bank of late are so quiet in relation to the woes of the dd scheme and appear to be complicit in allowing the public to be deceived in relation to the safety of the dd scheme by the Banks and IPSO.

The central bank have representatives who attend IPSO board meetings so should be aware that proper systems are not in place to give upfront protection to accounts.

MrVestek

I find it ironic that RBS were advertising for SAP Advisors amongst other things for their 'back office' in India only a day or two before this happened:

http://www.indeed.co.in/RBS-jobs-in-Chennai,-Tamil-Nadu

Goes to show that even the IT resources in their Indian offices are of short supply...

Addendum for those that don't know CA-Scheduler is a SAP program.

Our man in Havana

dub45 wrote: »

There is apparently nothing to stop any company changing the reference except perhaps honesty! Rare enough these days!

Unfortunately the UB employee was being truthful with you - the banks cannot detect a resubmitted dd if a reference has been changed. And it is quite common for companies to do this. there are plenty of reports on boards of them doing so. In fact there was a recent post here which mention a bank employee joking about regular offenders in this regard.

Disgracefully there are no consequences for companies who behave this way.

The dd scheme rules state:



Processes to "intercept" cancelled Direct Debits are not in place. That is a fact. So the first that banks hear about a cancelled dd being paid is when a customer complains about it!

It is extraordinary that the Central Bank who have been so vociferous in criticising Ulster Bank of late are so quiet in relation to the woes of the dd scheme and appear to be complicit in allowing the public to be deceived in relation to the safety of the dd scheme by the Banks and IPSO.

The central bank have representatives who attend IPSO board meetings so should be aware that proper systems are not in place to give upfront protection to accounts.

From UB's own website:

Please note, when cancelling direct debits it’s advised that you inform the originator, as they may set up new direct debits if they are not expecting the payments to stop.

Savman

Ally Dick wrote: »

Never underestimate the willingness of the Irish sheeple to forgive and forget though. Irish are different to every other nation. They don't take action. They go to sleep at night fuming and wake up the next morning forgetting that they were mad. It's a nice quality, but it gets nothing done

Speak for yourself. Did it ever occur to you that the demographic that would post on boards might not be representative of the entire population of the island. In fact, it could almost be fair to say that this very site is for those who like to talk more than they act. Kind of ironic then, that we should find you here amongst us sheep, don't ya think?

I'm sure there will be lots who will stay put for whatever reason, but it's pure nonsense to suggest the public are indifferent and won't make UB suffer for this mess.

dub45

Our man in Havana wrote: »

From UB's own website:

That really is a cop out on Ulster Bank's part. When a dd is cancelled the paying bank are required to inform the company concerned.

Cancelling a Direct Debit Instruction (DDI)

The Payer may cancel the DDI by informing his/her Bank.

In these circumstances, the following procedures must be followed:
Step Description
1.Advise Originator

Payer’s Bank must inform the Originator using an “Advice of Instruction
Amendment/Cancellation Form” substantially in the form as set out in
Appendix 8


2.Originator’s Action

An Originator must not present a Direct Debit on a DDI that has been
cancelled.
NB It is not possible to reactivate a direct debit after cancellation. If a payer wants to reactivate a
direct debit a new DDI must be set up. The first 6 characters of the alpha-numeric reference number
on the new debit must be different from those on the cancelled DDI

Page 22 of DD scheme rules. So if UB (and the other banks) are doing their jobs then they will inform the companies accordingly and the companies should know that the dd has been cancelled and therefore the customer has withdrawn permission for any further access to their bank account. This does not in any way alter the contractual relationship between the customer and the company.

Incidentally I have found UB staff to be shockingly ignorant of the dd scheme.

MrVestek

Yes because Ulster Bank knows how to follow rules and do a good job right?... RIGHT?!

booth70

Why is the credit card bill payment made online 2 weeks ago still not showing up on the credit card account.....after all it's a simple Ulster current account to an Ulster Credit Card account transfer

Betty Swallox

Just in case anyone was thinking of switching accounts, here's a useful guide in today's Indo:

http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/how-to-to-wave-goodbye-to-your-bank-in-four-easy-steps-3168546.html

Pockey

For systems that are supposed to be getting back to normal. I logged into my online banking this morning to find I've been paid in full my monthly salary in June again crediting on guess what date?!!!! July 16th!!!

Doubt it will take them long to notice that one!

For people waiting for CC payments to show up, my better half is in the same boat. She rang them and they told her not to do anything, it would credit (although they couldn't tell when)

Geri Male

Achilles wrote: »

Ohh great I just checked my online account and a retail refund that I made on my card earlier today after returning something in a store hasn't shown up yet either.
.

Refunds on laser / debit card transactions always take a couple of days to show up.

OU812

Solair wrote: »

Given that they've basically lost your money, I can't see how they even have any option but to facilitate you!!

That response is totally unacceptable!

Unfortunately that attitude hit me also. Left me - €70 because of 2 withdrawals that I didn't recognise & they couldn't tell me what they were. Unfortunately for me, I was in the UK with no other funds which meant I didn't get to eat for 24 hours.

They just said there was nothing they could do when I asked for a € 100 overdraft until they sorted out their problem & gave me back my money.

Ally Dick

OU812 wrote: »

Unfortunately that attitude hit me also. Left me - €70 because of 2 withdrawals that I didn't recognise & they couldn't tell me what they were. Unfortunately for me, I was in the UK with no other funds which meant I didn't get to eat for 24 hours.

They just said there was nothing they could do when I asked for a € 100 overdraft until they sorted out their problem & gave me back my money.

They can't give out instant overdraft on weekends. Their credit department are probably not working! Yet another example of their amateurism

OU812

This happened Thursday, following me alerting them to it on Tuesday.

Solair

Ally Dick wrote: »

They can't give out instant overdraft on weekends. Their credit department are probably not working! Yet another example of their amateurism

That's really not good enough given that they've actually caused customers to be in this financial position in the first instance.
If customers are stuck and it's the bank's fault, then you get the credit department working on weekends during the crisis.

Is the bank trying to get rid of customers or something?

I can't see how anyone experiencing this kind of treatment would even consider continuing to bank with them.

DJLJ

Getting your wages paid twice seems a hell of a lot better than the taking your mortgage twice and pay mortgage relief twice, which they have done to me. Also dated the 16th. It never ends with these *****.

BuffyBot

The nature of the Direct Debit scheme is not relevant to this thread - so let's not drag it off topic..

A few people's obsessions are also sailing dangerously close to the edges again, so I'd ask everyone to think before they post.

I cleaned out my account on Friday and apparently payments dated the 16.07.12(TOMORROW) have showed up on my account as of this morning. I know I was watching "Back to the Future" yesterday but this is stupid. Future payments showing up.

This has not been uncommon during this disruption over the last while (multiple transactions/credits/debits appearing temporarily) and has been reported on here on these threads multiple times. To catch up, Ulster has been running batch jobs at irregular times, so things are constantly in a state of flux as wave after wave of transactions/credits are applied. Tomorrow's date is showing as its the first "business" date.

majella mallon

The direct debit from another bank for our morgage payment has come in a week earlier than usual agreed date, anyone else have this problem?
and does anyone know why? account accuracy has all the hallmarks of a lucky dip.

majella mallon

Teller transactions, direct debits etc. are all part of the 'system' of banking, I would have thought; and having been affected or infected by the ulster bank systems being 'down' should be discussed as they come up.
I got a clearer picture of the scale of account anomalies only by discussing all the variables connected with ulster bank transactions with other customers both on and off-line