More cuts in health spending

ART6

bbam wrote: »

Right.
Yes the issue has been highlighted but of course nothing comes back and nothing changes. As for the union question. My OH has no faith in union action and personally I believe she is right. I feel that the unions are a self serving organisation who only look to secure their own power and positions rather than the pretence they give off that they have some greater social interest at heart. Personally I feel sorry for anyone on strike as they have been duped into thinking it will get them somewhere and particularly in the health services strike is a terrible insult to patients as they are being used as pawns, with their health being thrown up on the pile of chips as a gamble.

In a way life is a chess game. There are kings and queens (politicians in government). There are bishops who move in diagonals to avoid confronting anything of importance, and tell us we should vow allegiance to some nebulous being whose existence has never been proved. There are knights that move in all sorts of erratic directions and seek to bully us with their unpredictability (like "Big" Phill Hogan). There are castles that only move in one of two directions, both of them compliant with the current external pressures (Enda Kenny?). The castles give an impression of strength without exhibiting any.

Then there are the pawns. They can only move in one direction unless faced with an enemy of the rear and privileged line, in which case they will immediately be sacrificed by a bishop, castle, queen, or knight in the defence of the state. Otherwise they must plod doggedly ahead until such time as they are devoured by their betters. They have no choice. Their destiny is predetermined. You, good people, are the pawns. You do as you are told.

Sometimes, however, the pawns do manage to reach the far line on the board, and when they do the board order changes.

golfwallah

Welease wrote: »

I don't disagee with your OH's opinions on unions..

But are they and their colleagues still paying union subs and willing to strike if called on by the union?.. Becuase that there.. is whats causing the vast amount of issues that your OH is experiencing.. Continually blaming just senior management is a cop out.. HSE staff (union members) are the ones who are causing their own issues and refuse to allow meaningful change to take place..

We’d all like to see solutions to problems in the health service, but it’s a tad unrealistic, in my experience, to expect unions or an individual middle manager, who is a union member, to change the culture of a big organisation, like the HSE. This is particularly the case when it comes to dealing with issues like re-deployment / re-training of so called “under-performing” managers or other staff.

The initiative for so fundamental change has to come from top management and would require a process of consultation with unions and their buy in. It would also require development of a fair and equitable process for handling such a sensitive matter.

This is difficult enough for top management to achieve but not impossible, as has been illustrated by the setting up of “Mobility Centres”, following deregulation of the telecoms and electricity markets in the ESB and eircom – click on link for more info.

I think this is a more realistic way to go rather than expecting an individual to take on the task “tout seul”.;)

nursextreme

Thepredator wrote: »

I was one of nineteen emergency medical technicians who received Job offers for the national ambulance service on the 4th of July. We got that same email on Tuesday, we were due to have Medicals in the next two weeks! What a shambles the HSE is!!

Very frustrating for you,of course its always the lowest step on the ladder that gets cut first. I'm sure your future colleagues will be pleased with the extra overtime they will be getting over the next few months as the staff shortage continues.
The idea of hiring new staff in special circumstances where they are desperately needed was meant to be a way of addressing HSE overspend as opposed to using overtime or agency to cover the gaps. This has been going on for the past 4 years now and the massive overspend continues the HSE/UNIONs would like the public to believe that this is the result of a shambolic organisation but I would say the are pretty happy with things as all vested interests are catered for - still!!

Welease

bbam wrote: »

It's much clearer now.
So your opinion is that the current problems are as a result of health care professionals not being militant enough and not blindly following union direction. Yet another person blaming the front line staff for the problems in the HSE, it's not a problem that management aren't managing, the problem is that front line staff aren't making them manage.
And so the government department of health and all those down to front line staff are then absolved because front line staff are letting them mismanage things.

I honestly don't think you are even reading what I have posted.. Where have I said that they should do what the unions are requesting? I am and have consistantly stated the exact opposite throughout this thread.

There are problems from top to bottom in the HSE.. the unions and staff are one and the same.. the staff are members of the unions, they fund the union, they vote if/whether to take strike action, and they strike if required. You cannot blame unions and clear front line staff... they are one and the same essentially.

It is nigh on impossible for the required changes to be made in the HSE, because unions/staff block most of the changes. Those changes are being blocked because HSE staff members block those changes via the unions.. Continually blaming senior management (who themselves have plenty of issues) solely is utter rubbish. Especially when it's often senior management requests that are the ones being blocked..

Lets have a look at what the HSE staff (via their unions) have blocked in the last short week (from the Irish times alone)..

"The Irish Times reported today that HSE management had put forward four options for dealing with the deficit to unions earlier this week.
The options were: staff working an additional two hours per week, unpaid, for a two or three year period, overtime only being paid at a flat rate without a premium, the ending of payment of time and a sixth for staff working between 6.00pm and 8.00pm and new restrictions on flexitime working."


Staff/Union Response



"Siptu health division organiser Paul Bell said this afternoon that when the HSE formally tabled its proposals he would consult with union officials and shop stewards representing members in the health sector.

He said he could not at this stage rule out holding a ballot on industrial action as a protective measure in response to the management proposals."


http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0726/breaking21.html




"TRADE UNIONS have warned the Government that any move to cut overtime or premium pay rates or to defer increments would represent a breach of the Croke Park agreement.
The Civil Public and Services Union (CPSU), which represents lower-paid staff in the Civil Service, said any move by the Government on increments would have “huge ramifications”."
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0626/1224318727011.html?via=rel


There are literally hundreds of attempts to modernise, remove demarcation, remove waste, implement cost savings etc.. and the vast majority of important ones have been waylaid by HSE staff via their unions.



So explain to me why shouldn't front line staff (as well as senior management) shoulder the blame? Isn't it their unions blocking all these changes?

Welease

golfwallah wrote: »

I think this is a more realistic way to go rather than expecting an individual to take on the task “tout seul”.;)

I am not asking for any individual to take on the task and expect to succeed (but it is all those innocent "individuals" who stop any changes being made) .. but I am also not allowing any individual who is a member of a union, funds their existance, requests representation from that union in organisational matters, and will follow the decision of the unions (via staff ballots on strikes etc) to pretend they are not part of the major problem with the HSE...

They are, and they need to be reminded of that each and every time they try and pretend is it senior management alone who are the issue..

ardmacha

The options were: staff working an additional two hours per week, unpaid, for a two or three year period, overtime only being paid at a flat rate without a premium, the ending of payment of time and a sixth for staff working between 6.00pm and 8.00pm and new restrictions on flexitime working."

This is exactly an example of how things are. In many cases existing agreements have not been used, but instead of doing this we have these proposals. All that would result from this is that departments like that of the BBam's OH would get cut more while other sections would remain untouched because their manager couldn't be arsed.

Let the HSE produce proper statistics on what everyone is doing now and show that that more is needed.

golfwallah

Welease wrote: »

I honestly don't think you are even reading what I have posted.. Where have I said that they should do what the unions are requesting? I am and have consistantly stated the exact opposite throughout this thread.

There are problems from top to bottom in the HSE.. the unions and staff are one and the same.. the staff are members of the unions, they fund the union, they vote if/whether to take strike action, and they strike if required. You cannot blame unions and clear front line staff... they are one and the same essentially.

It is nigh on impossible for the required changes to be made in the HSE, because unions/staff block most of the changes. Those changes are being blocked because HSE staff members block those changes via the unions.. Continually blaming senior management (who themselves have plenty of issues) solely is utter rubbish. Especially when it's often senior management requests that are the ones being blocked..

Lets have a look at what the HSE staff (via their unions) have blocked in the last short week (from the Irish times alone)..

"The Irish Times reported today that HSE management had put forward four options for dealing with the deficit to unions earlier this week.
The options were: staff working an additional two hours per week, unpaid, for a two or three year period, overtime only being paid at a flat rate without a premium, the ending of payment of time and a sixth for staff working between 6.00pm and 8.00pm and new restrictions on flexitime working."


Staff/Union Response

"Siptu health division organiser Paul Bell said this afternoon that when the HSE formally tabled its proposals he would consult with union officials and shop stewards representing members in the health sector.

He said he could not at this stage rule out holding a ballot on industrial action as a protective measure in response to the management proposals."


http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0726/breaking21.html


"TRADE UNIONS have warned the Government that any move to cut overtime or premium pay rates or to defer increments would represent a breach of the Croke Park agreement.
The Civil Public and Services Union (CPSU), which represents lower-paid staff in the Civil Service, said any move by the Government on increments would have “huge ramifications”."
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0626/1224318727011.html?via=rel


There are literally hundreds of attempts to modernise, remove demarcation, remove waste, implement cost savings etc.. and the vast majority of important ones have been waylaid by HSE staff via their unions.


So explain to me why shouldn't front line staff (as well as senior management) shoulder the blame? Isn't it their unions blocking all these changes?

I’ve read the press articles on your links and wouldn’t read all you are reading into them, well at least not quite yet.

I’ve also read through the Croke Park Agreement (click link to view) and see plenty of scope for change and cost reduction. The most significant issue, at this stage, as I read it, is that it has taken so long for management to start using the agreement to achieve the savings it envisages.

For example, the following are extracts from Chapter 1 of the CPA:

Para 1.1. “The Parties to this Agreement recognise that to achieve this, in the context of reduced resources and numbers, the Public Service will need to be re-organised and public bodies and individual public servants will have to increase their flexibility and mobility to work together across sectoral, organisational and professional boundaries.”

Para 1.3. “Government intends to restructure and reorganise the Public Service significantly in the coming years, having regard in particular to the Government Statement on Transforming Public Services”

Para 1.4. “the Parties accept that efficiencies will need to be maximised and productivity in the use of resources greatly increased through revised work practices and other initiatives. The Parties will work together to implement this Agreement to deliver an ongoing reduction in the cost of delivery of public services along with excellent services to the public”.

I think what is being reported is a bit of public sabre rattling from the union side. I wouldn't expect that management will run away terrified just yet.

Let’s just wait a bit, shall we, before arriving at any conclusions at this early stage in the game?

ahal

A few good steps for improving the health service ...

Firstly, get class out of the picture and concentrate on medical needs. There seems to be a policy of getting rid of older people in our Hospitals ("Ah sure, he / she had good innings!")

Doctors are like little Gods, with the minions milling around them smiling and nodding. In no other walk of life have I witnessed this - it's pathetic, and does not encourage disruption (which is what you need where required if a life hangs in the balance)

C-diff, MRSA and a host of other infections have become almost an accepted norm.

OP, get on to Patient Focus, they're great.

At the end of the day people like stroke patients get sort of 'left there' in Hospitals, because they don't know what to do with them as time passes.

golfwallah

Welease wrote: »

I am not asking for any individual to take on the task and expect to succeed (but it is all those innocent "individuals" who stop any changes being made) .. but I am also not allowing any individual who is a member of a union, funds their existance, requests representation from that union in organisational matters, and will follow the decision of the unions (via staff ballots on strikes etc) to pretend they are not part of the major problem with the HSE...

They are, and they need to be reminded of that each and every time they try and pretend is it senior management alone who are the issue..

I don't think anyone is pretending it's senior management alone who are the issue.

At the end of the day management and staff together have to sort out their problems.

That said, it's top management's role to take the lead in initiating change ....can't exactly expect this initiative to come from the unions or any individual staff or management member.

As I read the Croke Park Agreement (and goodness knows, I don't think it's a perfect document by any means but it is the one we have), it allows plenty of scope for management to initiate change and bring staff and their representatives along with them.

But this change won't happen overnight and it requires a lot of work and goodwill from all sides.

Maybe, it's the way you look at things ..... "glass half full or half empty, etc".

I prefer to take the more optimistic approach, that it is possible to change things, no matter the history or how difficult.

People know the score, change has to happen, there will be resistance, nobody said it was going to be easy and management has to persevere.

Just takes a lot of work, goodwill all round in the face of a national emergency and a positive frame of mind.

bull_ring

ahal wrote: »

A few good steps for improving the health service ...

Firstly, get class out of the picture and concentrate on medical needs. There seems to be a policy of getting rid of older people in our Hospitals ("Ah sure, he / she had good innings!")

Doctors are like little Gods, with the minions milling around them smiling and nodding. In no other walk of life have I witnessed this - it's pathetic, and does not encourage disruption (which is what you need where required if a life hangs in the balance)

C-diff, MRSA and a host of other infections have become almost an accepted norm.

OP, get on to Patient Focus, they're great.

At the end of the day people like stroke patients get sort of 'left there' in Hospitals, because they don't know what to do with them as time passes.

what is this policy of getting rid of old people you speak of ?

it almost sounds like people are being bumped off :eek:

Welease

golfwallah wrote: »

I don't think anyone is pretending it's senior management alone who are the issue.

If that were true, then why does the mere suggestion that frontline staff have a share of the blame envoke such a reaction?

golfwallah wrote: »

At the end of the day management and staff together have to sort out their problems.

That has been my point since my first post... At this stage both sides have to pull their socks up and fix the issues.

golfwallah wrote: »

That said, it's top management's role to take the lead in initiating change ....can't exactly expect this initiative to come from the unions or any individual staff or management member.

Again, I have never said anything different.. However, when one side continually proposes change and the other side in general rejects change with little workable counterproposal then it is time to start reflecting this. We are several years into this crisis, beds continue to be closed, and as per my initial posts in this thread on a daily basis colossal waste continues (http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=79668740&postcount=60). Senior Management have not requested the wasteful behaviour in the items i described, and they are not in a position to understand and view them all on a day to day basis.. Front line staff and unions are aware of each and every items and could stop them tomorrow if required, but as per the Electricians Strike, front line staff have shown a willingness to strike when obvious wastage is attempted to be removed. (http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0816/stjames.html)

golfwallah wrote: »

As I read the Croke Park Agreement (and goodness knows, I don't think it's a perfect document by any means but it is the one we have), it allows plenty of scope for management to initiate change and bring staff and their representatives along with them.

But this change won't happen overnight and it requires a lot of work and goodwill from all sides.

It was implemented in 2010 as a result of many years of issues and months and months of discussion.. How long should we wait to stop delivering dinners to people who we know wont be in the hospital? How long do we continue to put people in beds who dont need to be in hospital and we don't have the support services available to make their stay of any value?

Can you list a few significant changes which have delivered the required changes to the HSE?

golfwallah wrote: »

Maybe, it's the way you look at things ..... "glass half full or half empty, etc".

Actually I am a glass half full person, if you read my earlier posts (and the other health thread) you would see that I have to deal with the HSE in a variety of very serious issues in the past couple of years, but I also have over 25 years experience of dealing with large successful multinationals and working colossal organisational change across the globe.. the ongoing waste and delays within the HSE are some of the poorest examples I have seen of reaction to critical issues (from both sides).

golfwallah wrote: »

I prefer to take the more optimistic approach, that it is possible to change things, no matter the history or how difficult.

People know the score, change has to happen, there will be resistance, nobody said it was going to be easy and management has to persevere.

Just takes a lot of work, goodwill all round in the face of a national emergency and a positive frame of mind.

Thats fair enough.. you are welcome to your opinion.. there is very little I can or will do to change that. Next year we will have the same chat, and the following year.. and the bulk of targets hit will be manufactured soft targets so everyone walks away without any blame..

Intention is required.. Results are the actual delivery of those intentions..
We are, and continue to be a long way short of required results.. Senior management, general management and front line staff have to continue to be held accountable for those failings.

golfwallah

@ Welease:
Personally, I feel it has been taking far to long to address real problems in the health service so that we taxpayers get the value we all deserve for our hard earned money.

As you say, the standard response of cutting service, closing beds, etc., just ain't good enough.

At long last we are beginning to see something other than closing beds with negotiations between management and unions on other ways to contain costs.

It's early days, would prefer to see less of the megaphone diplomacy myself, but I guess that's just part of the process of appealing to the constituencies of those that elected union officials.

The important thing is a start has been made, finally prompted by a looming overspend and government insistence to get back on budget.;)

creedp

golfwallah wrote: »

@ Welease:
Personally, I feel it has been taking far to long to address real problems in the health service so that we taxpayers get the value we all deserve for our hard earned money.

As you say, the standard response of cutting service, closing beds, etc., just ain't good enough.

At long last we are beginning to see something other than closing beds with negotiations between management and unions on other ways to contain costs.

It's early days, would prefer to see less of the megaphone diplomacy myself, but I guess that's just part of the process of appealing to the constituencies of those that elected union officials.

The important thing is a start has been made, finally prompted by a looming overspend and government insistence to get back on budget.;)

A lot of views expressed here why mgt/unions/staff haven't enthuastically engaged in cost cutting programmes/reforms. These of course must happen but its hardly reasonable to consider that staff/union will offer up reforms that will reduce their incomes unless these are initiated and driven by top level management/government. Maybe I missed it but I haven't come across reform proposals from GP's, private consultants, drug companies, etc that will result in cost saving reforms at their expense, nor would I expect to. This has to be a top down process, problem is no real leadership from the top to drive it down.

Welease

creedp wrote: »

A lot of views expressed here why mgt/unions/staff haven't enthuastically engaged in cost cutting programmes/reforms. These of course must happen but its hardly reasonable to consider that staff/union will offer up reforms that will reduce their incomes unless these are initiated and driven by top level management/government. Maybe I missed it but I haven't come across reform proposals from GP's, private consultants, drug companies, etc that will result in cost saving reforms at their expense, nor would I expect to. This has to be a top down process, problem is no real leadership from the top to drive it down.

Income reduction (or understaffing) is the final step because of lack of sensible cost saving/productivity reforms (unless you consider the reduction of rediculous costs due demarcation payments as unfair)..

If half of the wastage that occurs in the HSE was removed it was unlikely any previous reductions in pay would have been necessary (pre CPA).. The HSE has a colossal budget and pay along with services and waste must be funded via that budget.. If staff refuse or delay in cutting waste and service costs then pay will continue to be cut.

Degsy

Welease wrote: »

If staff refuse or delay in cutting waste and service costs then pay will continue to be cut.

Then so to will services...you cant have it both ways.

Welease

Degsy wrote: »

Then so to will services...you cant have it both ways.

Because we are incapable of cutting waste and running more efficient services? I'd rather try that first and continue to reward great HSE employees with great wages......

Degsy

Welease wrote: »

Because we are incapable of cutting waste and running more efficient services? I'd rather try that first and continue to reward great HSE employees with great wages......

You cannot operate a state-run free public health service like a business.

I'm sure nursesd in A&E would love to be payed by the number of patients they see but who's going to pay the bill for that? The patients themselves?

Welease

Degsy wrote: »

You cannot operate a state-run free public health service like a business.

I'm sure nursesd in A&E would love to be payed by the number of patients they see but who's going to pay the bill for that? The patients themselves?

So who ever proposed that system?

ahal

bull_ring wrote: »

what is this policy of getting rid of old people you speak of ?

it almost sounds like people are being bumped off :eek:

I can only speak of my own experiences, and if I go into too much detail the post will probably have to be pulled. My impression is that family of older people are "encouraged" to "let them pass with dignity" (ie: doctorspeak for "let them die") if the prognosis is less than straightforward.

byhookorbycrook

:rolleyes:A good example of HSE managing:
Local hospital has a new private area, brings in the bucks in a big way from VHI etc. Soooo,short of beds ,what do they do?Close that area, put those private patients into public beds, less beds for public patients and less dosh for hospital.

Good loser

Welease wrote: »

I honestly don't think you are even reading what I have posted.. Where have I said that they should do what the unions are requesting? I am and have consistantly stated the exact opposite throughout this thread.

There are problems from top to bottom in the HSE.. the unions and staff are one and the same.. the staff are members of the unions, they fund the union, they vote if/whether to take strike action, and they strike if required. You cannot blame unions and clear front line staff... they are one and the same essentially.

It is nigh on impossible for the required changes to be made in the HSE, because unions/staff block most of the changes. Those changes are being blocked because HSE staff members block those changes via the unions.. Continually blaming senior management (who themselves have plenty of issues) solely is utter rubbish. Especially when it's often senior management requests that are the ones being blocked..

Lets have a look at what the HSE staff (via their unions) have blocked in the last short week (from the Irish times alone)..

"The Irish Times reported today that HSE management had put forward four options for dealing with the deficit to unions earlier this week.
The options were: staff working an additional two hours per week, unpaid, for a two or three year period, overtime only being paid at a flat rate without a premium, the ending of payment of time and a sixth for staff working between 6.00pm and 8.00pm and new restrictions on flexitime working."


Staff/Union Response



"Siptu health division organiser Paul Bell said this afternoon that when the HSE formally tabled its proposals he would consult with union officials and shop stewards representing members in the health sector.

He said he could not at this stage rule out holding a ballot on industrial action as a protective measure in response to the management proposals."


http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0726/breaking21.html




"TRADE UNIONS have warned the Government that any move to cut overtime or premium pay rates or to defer increments would represent a breach of the Croke Park agreement.
The Civil Public and Services Union (CPSU), which represents lower-paid staff in the Civil Service, said any move by the Government on increments would have “huge ramifications”."
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0626/1224318727011.html?via=rel


There are literally hundreds of attempts to modernise, remove demarcation, remove waste, implement cost savings etc.. and the vast majority of important ones have been waylaid by HSE staff via their unions.



So explain to me why shouldn't front line staff (as well as senior management) shoulder the blame? Isn't it their unions blocking all these changes?

Fine post Welease. Have been following your contributions all through. Your grasp of the situation is excellent.

My sympathies to you on you and your families serious health problems - in the context your posts are nothing less than heroic.

I spent many years in the civil service and the ills you relate are oh so familiar. Management can't/won't manage and staff can't/won't work. At least half them.

O'Reilly is a windbag and a blusterer - I would put Howlin in charge.

Doran's the same - complains about the banks when he, with his blunt threats and honeyed garbage, must be costing the country billions per annum.

All 'negotiations' with unions should be opened and closed with a result in weeks. If the unions were really concerned about the health service they would generate the suggested cuts themselves; they were well able to fillet the public purse when times were good.

Consultant's pay is scandalous.

Fight on W.

tinner777

all the current 4 yr student nurses where i work today received letters telling them that there would be no vacancies for them this year.
The unit is currently running on a skeleton crew with all the retirements etc and the only way we can provide the minimum of safety is by using at least 3 overtime shifts a day.
The only game at the moment is cutting staff numbers regardless of the real cost. I have been in meetings where our local union staff has stated that our overtime bill would be slashed if we employed new students on lower contracts to cover our shortfall instead of paying senior staff overtime.

ART6

Some time after starting this thread my wife was finally discharged from hospital. As much as any other reason it was because I wanted it, although the ward doctor told me bluntly that they wouldn't discharge her until they were sure that she could be cared for at home whatever I wanted. A discharge date was agreed, and to my astonishment the HSE leaped into action. A hospital bed and a person hoist was delivered, and carers were arranged for twice a day to wash and dress my wife and put her to bed in the evening. A district nurse calls twice a week to monitor her progress, and the hospital speech therapist and occupational therapist contact me weekly to ensure that she is OK and eating properly and visit when they feel they should. This is superb service from obviously dedicated people, and it has made my life as a carer so much easier.

While my wife was in hospital I chatted to a ward nurse, who told me that she worked 14 hours a day "But only for three days a week." Good God! Not surprising that they are all buzzing around like excited bees! The ward sister seemed to be dealing with two or three wards at once, and in spite of her laid back attitude and willingness to talk to me, was obviously under pressure. The junior doctors told me openly that they has all the case load they could handle and then some.

Being a total cynic, I wonder: Dr. Reilly and your advisers, do you work a 14 hour day? When you cut beds and recruitment, do you have any concept of what happens to those who are not in your privileged position? Have you ever tried a twenty-hour shift in a hospital, and had to make decisions on people's treatment in hour twenty three? Oh, I am sure that some spin doctor will tell me that Dr. Reilly works 24 hours a day, but I might find that a little difficult to accept.

So I can't resist a challenge (pointless though it is, since the advisers who --I assume-- trawl media will ignore it). So: Dr. Reilly, what do you really know about the operations of the HSE? Show us your CV please, since we are paying you big bucks as an employee.

nursextreme

tinner777 wrote: »

all the current 4 yr student nurses where i work today received letters telling them that there would be no vacancies for them this year.
The unit is currently running on a skeleton crew with all the retirements etc and the only way we can provide the minimum of safety is by using at least 3 overtime shifts a day.
The only game at the moment is cutting staff numbers regardless of the real cost. I have been in meetings where our local union staff has stated that our overtime bill would be slashed if we employed new students on lower contracts to cover our shortfall instead of paying senior staff overtime.

Just wondering had you been allowed to keep 4th students after they had qualified in previous years. In my area the whole process since the 2009 moratorium has been mix with a token number of jobs (WTEs) for new recruits since that time coming from the National Panel and controversially a small number a newly qualified were given contracts of indefinite duration bypassing the National Panel. Last year some fourth years were kept on with contracts of indefinite duration but at 80% pay rate. Use of agency is down plus the unions swung a deal that people could work flatrate overtime.

The whole recruitment process is so messed up with panels that mean nothing apart from keeping 50+ people in employment in National Recruitment Manorhamilton in HR jobs in the height of a 4 year recruitment embargo.

Dannyboy83

Very surprised to see the HSE overspend is going to hit €500 million.

How the **** do you 'overspend' by €500 million?
Whoopsy Daisy!

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/eu-bosses-lash-out-at-reillys-500m-hse-overspend-3214178.html
HEALTH Minister James Reilly's failure to keep the HSE overspend under control was savaged last night in a report from the European Commission.

In a damning indictment, it said a large part of the health deficit -- which could reach €500m by the end of the year -- could be blamed on a failure to manage services properly and to stick to targets that were outlined in last year's Budget.

The report blamed "a weakness in budget management and accountability" in the health system and said the overspend could be blamed on "the failure to manage certain services within approved levels in the 2012 service plan and slippage in the delivery of some of the measures envisaged in the 2012 Budget".

It also said that, so far this year, only 22pc of intended health savings had been achieved.

Those secured so far have largely been one-off and will not be repeated. Further "structural changes", rather than temporary measures, may have to be considered, it added.

The language in the report is particularly strident and is in marked difference to the usual dry tones used by the troika bodies.

Farmer Pudsey

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Very surprised to see the HSE overspend is going to hit €500 million.

How the **** do you 'overspend' by €500 million?
Whoopsy Daisy!

You sound suprised, how do you do it, you just go on as normal have a massive over spend and hope that pressure on politicians will create the situtation where you do not have to cut,

This is an an issue right accross the PS because of the Croke Park agreement we cannot cut wages. Most of Public service costs are on wages 80% in the case of education, health is probally similar so to cut costs you have the situtation where it is the person dependant on the service that suffers.

Along with that administration in the PS is massive in certain area's it cost more to collect revenue than the revenue collected.

ART6

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Very surprised to see the HSE overspend is going to hit €500 million.

How the **** do you 'overspend' by €500 million?
Whoopsy Daisy!

The trouble is that forward budgets can never be engraved on stone. They can only be a best guess with a bit built in to try to deal with the unexpected and the BIFT factor (bugger I forgot that). The larger the organisation the harder it gets, and I say that as one who has had to prepare forward budgets in the engineering industry for getting on for forty years. I can provide an estimate of what the maintenance cost will be for a large industrial plant next year, but I can't foresee everything, and if I tried to do so the bean counters would tear me to ribbons. "Far too higher cost. Reduce it!" Even if my doing so might well result in "But you told us...." in a years time.

In the case of the HSE the 2012 budget total is €13.317 billions, and there is (apparently) a current overspend projected to rise to €500 millions (?). That, if my maths are correct, is a projected overspend of 2.66%. That is actually not a bad budget estimate. I would normally estimate plus or minus ten percent when budgeting a year ahead.

In a very large organisation the budget estimates will be condensed from a large number of individual estimates. So a department that operates (say) MRI scanners might know exactly what their annual cost will be since there are only so many hours that the machines can operate, and the stafffing costs are known (at least, until the politicians change them). An orthopedic department, however, must make a best guess about how many people are likely to break a leg.

Even so, I can make a reasonably educated guess in the industry that I understand, because machines are to some extent predictable. I cannot imagine how you could do it for the treatment of a population of four and a half million when you can't possibly know how many people are going to get sick, or where new medical procedures are popping up at a breathtaking rate. So what to do? Not apply those procedures in spite of the fact that they might save lives in order to keep to the budget? Is the BUDGET more important than human life?

In this context I have some experience. My wife is now terminally ill. There was no way of knowing that a year ago. In the last months I have received assistance from the HSE that I never believed possible, given the media hysteria. A year ago no-one in the HSE could possibly have budgeted for that, but they have pulled out all of the stops for me and I am indebted to them for that. It has now become an "over ride cost."

I know nothing of the structure of the HSE. I don't know if it is efficient or incompetent. I don't know if its management is excessive. I am prepared to believe that all large bureaucracies need to be restructured every now and again before they become inefficient (the Peter Principle), and I don't doubt that the HSE could do with a good dose of looking at. However, I do believe that a country's primary duty is to look to the health and welfare of its people, and if that does not meet targets applied by auditors or creditors or other states, then tough s**t. There are some things of lesser importance to spend the people's money on.

The ECB and the IMF are financiers. They don't care about the health of the nation. They only are interested in the bottom line. In our government's abject capitulation to them, we are simply saying that your money is more important to us than the lives of our people.

dean23

Welease wrote: »

Because we are incapable of cutting waste and running more efficient services? I'd rather try that first and continue to reward great HSE employees with great wages......

He said hundreds of millions of Euro havebeing cut from the health budget
Thousands of staff has left the hospitals
And so far this year they have put 8% morepatients through the system
So waste has being cut and efficient improvedbut yes there is more to do
But how can you do this with and idiot of aminister running it
Where the F**K is Reilly???????????
Harney vanished every time they was bad newsabout the HSE and Reilly is doing same

Black Smoke

dean23 wrote: »

He said hundreds of millions of Euro havebeing cut from the health budget
Thousands of staff has left the hospitals
And so far this year they have put 8% morepatients through the system
So waste has being cut and efficient improvedbut yes there is more to do
But how can you do this with and idiot of aminister running it
Where the F**K is Reilly???????????
Harney vanished every time they was bad newsabout the HSE and Reilly is doing same

Minister O Reilly, is so up to his tonsils, in personal business and business / financial difficulties, he cannot have the time, interest or focus to run a corner shop, never mind the health service. He is an utter and total liability to the government and his department. Enda Kenny, needs to get out the report card he promised at the beginning of this adminsitration.
He needs to EXPEL, student O Reilly, for not attending class

ardmacha

Most of Public service costs are on wages 80% in the case of education,

Farmer Pudsey, it has been shown on many many occasions that this 80% is not true, including recently. Please stop posting untruths.

Farmer Pudsey

ardmacha wrote: »

Farmer Pudsey, it has been shown on many many occasions that this 80% is not true, including recently. Please stop posting untruths.

I am only going on revised estimates. If you take teachers pensions, wages and administration costs into account.

http://per.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/REV-2012-Final1.pdf

The reality is that the average wage in the public service is 950 euro/week while in the private sector it is around 650/week. In the UK it is 650sterling in the public service and 550 in the private sector. So the private sector in Ireland is roughly equivlent to the private sector in GB but the same cannot said baout the piblic sector.

The cuts in the health service are now being targeted at home help's as these are not of fulltime contracts. It is the same in Education young teachers, caputation grants etc are targets for cuts while excessive wages are left untouched.

Idbatterim

In the case of the HSE the 2012 budget total is €13.317 billions, and there is (apparently) a current overspend projected to rise to €500 millions (?). That, if my maths are correct, is a projected overspend of 2.66%. That is actually not a bad budget estimate. I would normally estimate plus or minus ten percent when budgeting a year ahead.

why not tell the HSE staff and unions, that 5% has to be cut from the budget this year and next, no services are to be cut however, they can cut the waste, procurement costs etc, if they dont do this, the savings come from payroll simple!

syklops

Nody wrote: »

This has nothing to do with bond holders and all to do with incompetence in the HSE.

Back in 2006 (i.e. before the crash) I had a friend diagnosed with lung cancer after he had collapsed twice. Standard treatment is chemo and radiation which means you can't walk or do anything physical and are very weak. He was told he had to commute to the hospital (40km ride single way) every day for two weeks to get his chemo treatment because they could not find a room for him at the hospital.

This has NOTHING to do with bond holders and ALL to do with incompetence in the HSE in mismanaging money through excessive and utterly useless bureaucracy were HSE directors build their own kingdoms and no one can get fired for any reason.

+ feckin millions.

The only experiences I have had of the HSE and medical treatment was before i moved away and therefore was during boomtime. My father was point blank refused admission, because the oncall doctor didnt see anything wrong with him. We later discovered he had a brain haemorage. My cousin and i spent 22 hours waiting to be lokked at in A&E. This was daytime of a weekday(or it was when we went in).

During the boom millions was paid into the HSE to improve it, and we saw little improvement. Another poster said "we have not found a way to adequately fund it", I dont think this is true. We have not found a way to organise it or to manage it properly.

Also, with a population of 5 million, we have about 1.6 million medical card holders. How many people must we require to administer 1.6 million medical cards, with each needing to be renewed every year? If you dont have a medical card a GP visit is about 50 euro. Over here, everyone has health insurance, but every time you visit or utilise health care you must pay about 25czk administrative fee. Thats about 1 euro 20.

The HSE employs about 100,000, similar in size to the UKs GCHQ(General Communications Headquarters), a rather boring name for what is effectively the British NSA, basically a branch of the secret service. GCHQ is led by the Director of GCHQ, currently Iain Lobban. I know this from a quick google search. Doing a similar search for the HSE took somewhat longer and the top hit was unsurprisingly a form on the "Get in touch with us" page, to send an email to the HSE.

My point is, the UK's uber-secret listening and surveillance agency has the name of their director on their website. On the HSE's website there is only the name of the press officer. There is no transperency, there is no one to blame aside from the Minister and there is no one to argue or complain to.

Its not because of bond holders, nor is it because of the deficit. When we had money coming out of our ears, when under 9 hurling teams had squads of 40, when statues were erected to Professional skateboarders and when coke and hookers were practically a right not a privelige. Back in the good old days, around 2005, the HSE was a mess. The previous government threw vast amounts of money at it and the problem remained. What harm will reducing spending do?

Is it wrong that when I read that last part, I read it in the voice of An Taoiseach??

And IMHO it should become a bannable offence to mention the bond holders in any post on boards not directly related to bonds.

syklops

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

:rolleyes:A good example of HSE managing:
Local hospital has a new private area, brings in the bucks in a big way from VHI etc. Soooo,short of beds ,what do they do?Close that area, put those private patients into public beds, less beds for public patients and less dosh for hospital.

And another thing. What is that about hospitals "closing beds" around the country. Surely reducing the number of nurses would be more efficient?? How much does a room of beds, presumably with the lights on, cost to run over a room with the lights turned out?

bleg

syklops wrote: »

And another thing. What is that about hospitals "closing beds" around the country. Surely reducing the number of nurses would be more efficient?? How much does a room of beds, presumably with the lights on, cost to run over a room with the lights turned out?

It's the beds, their administration, staff etc...

Closure of the beds is happening because more staff are retiring and are not being replaced due to the recruitment moratorium. Hospitals can't afford to hire temp/agency staff so close the beds.

Not too sure how many have been closed this year so far though. You always hear people giving out about "bed closures" but they rarely give concrete facts.

Rabidlamb

Maybe this deserves it's own thread.
First Minister I remember bringing up the possibility of PS pay cuts.
Kite flying or the honest truth ?, watch this one closely.

Mr Reilly said that 70% of his budget goes on pay and that savings in the other 30% had been exhausted.

He said pay is an issue and he wants to deal with the cost of absenteeism and sick pay, where rates in some areas were less than 2% but in other areas four to five times that figure.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0831/hse-cuts.html

ART6

Rabidlamb wrote: »

Maybe this deserves it's own thread.
First Minister I remember bringing up the possibility of PS pay cuts.
Kite flying or the honest truth ?, watch this one closely.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0831/hse-cuts.html

I would agree with him. Pay is indeed an issue -- his! Huge salary for being absent for much of the year, being paid untaxed expenses for simply going to work, large unvouchered traveling expenses etc. etc. A pot calling the kettle black perhaps? How about setting an example Minister?

tayto lover

ART6 wrote: »

I would agree with him. Pay is indeed an issue -- his! Huge salary for being absent for much of the year, being paid untaxed expenses for simply going to work, large unvouchered traveling expenses etc. etc. A pot calling the kettle black perhaps? How about setting an example Minister?

Exactly. I don't want the nurse who treats me to be disgruntled, angry and distracted. If i'm in hospital i want to be treated well and professionally with the best possible care. I pay enough for it. Nurses have had their pay hit already I believe. Any cuts should be at the top and at admin level.

BOHSBOHS

well the minister isnt telling the truth

lets look at the figures for hse spending in 2009 (highest)
and compare to last year 2011

2009 pay 8,091m........ nonpay 6,577.......... capital 434
2011 pay 7,026m........ nonpay 6,541.......... capital 337

looks most of the saving has been on the pay side to me ??? :pac:

woodoo

BOHSBOHS wrote: »

well the minister isnt telling the truth

lets look at the figures for hse spending in 2009 (highest)
and compare to last year 2011

2009 pay 8,091m........ nonpay 6,577.......... capital 434
2011 pay 7,026m........ nonpay 6,541.......... capital 337

looks most of the saving has been on the pay side to me ??? :pac:

Our media wouldn't be interested in that sort of info though.

Good loser

woodoo wrote: »

Our media wouldn't be interested in that sort of info though.

They don't look right to me.

sarumite

BOHSBOHS wrote: »

well the minister isnt telling the truth

lets look at the figures for hse spending in 2009 (highest)
and compare to last year 2011

2009 pay 8,091m........ nonpay 6,577.......... capital 434
2011 pay 7,026m........ nonpay 6,541.......... capital 337

looks most of the saving has been on the pay side to me ??? :pac:

According to this Capital expenditure has been reduced by a higher percentage than pay. :pac:

HellFireClub

tayto lover wrote: »

Exactly. I don't want the nurse who treats me to be disgruntled, angry and distracted. If i'm in hospital i want to be treated well and professionally with the best possible care. I pay enough for it. Nurses have had their pay hit already I believe. Any cuts should be at the top and at admin level.

Anyone who is on a salary of 45K odd, who cannot be fired and who is still getting AUTOMATIC yearly increments, really ought to be extremely grateful at the moment I think.

You show me a single private sector organisation that was losing money at this rate, yet was allowed to say, "Hey we'll be preserving pay and pensions", it's beyond ridiculous at this stage.

Why on earth are this government afraid of the unions at the moment??? strikes only carry a threat, if there is public support for strikes!

Do you think anyone in the private sector who has had their pay & hours cut, their partners probably having lost their job or having suffered austerity there in some severe form or another, is going to have the slightest bit of sympathy for a public sector worker, on the "frontline" or otherwise, who is probably on a salary of 40K odd if not closer to 50K if not well above it, still getting automatic salary increments, who can't be fired, who is receiving a full time salary for a 35 hour working week in the case of nurses and a lot less in the case of teachers... Does anyone seriously think that there is going to be any sympathy for these cossetted PS workers if they have the lunacy to go down the road of striking???

woodoo

HellFireClub wrote: »

You show me a single private sector organisation that was losing money at this rate, yet was allowed to say, "Hey we'll be preserving pay and pensions", it's beyond ridiculous at this stage.

The public sector is not a private company and shouldn't be compared to one. Plenty of countries are running at a loss yet their public servants aren't getting cut. The UK is one example.

later12

BOHSBOHS wrote: »

well the minister isnt telling the truth

lets look at the figures for hse spending in 2009 (highest)
and compare to last year 2011

2009 pay 8,091m........ nonpay 6,577.......... capital 434
2011 pay 7,026m........ nonpay 6,541.......... capital 337

looks most of the saving has been on the pay side to me ??? :pac:

Any link to this?

BOHSBOHS

knock yourself out....

http://databank.per.gov.ie/

HellFireClub

woodoo wrote: »

The public sector is not a private company and shouldn't be compared to one. Plenty of countries are running at a loss yet their public servants aren't getting cut. The UK is one example.

That point is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned. Our public sector is highly inefficient, belligerent at best and the best paid in Europe. Why we are tolerating this, under some kind of veiled threat of industrial unrest, after at least 3 years of a recession, when we find ourselves in a bailout programme, is something that I personally find to be completely bizarre.

There is no reason why a public sector organisation should be any less efficient than a well run private sector organisation. In fact, given that it is public money that is used to run the latter, these organisations, you would expect would be the shining lights of efficiency & forward thinking, yet the exact opposite is the case, and has been the case for many years, as whole swathes of the Irish public sector were bought off for votes through one "partnership proces" after another.

The objective here is not "industrial peace" as has been claimed, it's patently obvious that the objective here has been, and still is, the purchase and retention of political patronage, by pacifying public sector voters, using taxpayers money! Jesus, at this stage it isn't even taxpayers money that is being used, we don't have any taxpayers money, its troika money that is being used to do this!

BigCatInJapan

€600 million to the bondholders tomorrow!

Good loser

BigCatInJapan wrote: »

€600 million to the bondholders tomorrow!

Excuses, excuses.

Welease

I don't know whether to be amused or to dispair at this stage..

A courier turned up at our house today with a delivery from the HSE of a..
.
.
<Wait for it>...
.
.
Single (as in 1) nappy for our son..


With Admin organisation and Delivery costs it must be one of the most expensive nappies ever used.