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Was I stung? Need some advice!

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  • 07-07-2012 4:42pm
    #1
    JayIre
    Registered Users Posts: 73 ✭✭


    New here, hope I've put this thread in the right place.

    I bought a car last Friday from small time car dealer/repair garage.

    The car was only recently nct'd (maybe 4 weeks before) and it was from a garage so I thought it would be mechanically sound. Took her for a spin and it drove well. He even told me to my face that the car is mechanically perfect, and the add is still on the internet where it clearly says '' new NCT car needs nothing'' still there too.

    He had the car up for 2150e, I got him down to 1850e because I wanted to fix a few scuffs on the body, and we shook on the deal. Off I went home happy enough with the deal.

    That very night whilst driving, the 'check engine light' came on. So I rang him the next morning and asked him to have a look at it. I went down the next day which was the Saturday, he wasn't there and had a young fella working there. I told him the story and let him look at the car. 5 to 10 mins later he told me ''thats ok for you now''. I asked him what was the problem and he told me ''it just needed to be reset is all''.

    Off I drove, thinking my car was fine, only for it to come back on again that same night the young fella said the car was fine.

    I've had the 'check engine light' tested from a trusted garage in my hometown since, and they're found a problem and fixed it which cost me 90e. Only for the 'check engine light' to come on again the next day. So who knows if thats another 90e fix on Monday.

    **(after doing some research I've found out that the computer that reads the check engine light codes can only produce one code at a time, and then it takes from 60 to 100 kms for the check engine computer to recycle and come on again. So the last garage I've had it seen at wasn't at fault for it coming back on)

    My question is, Was I screwed? Have I any hope in hell of getting a refund from this guy? The receipt had ''sold as seen'' on it so I think I have no grounds to get any of my money back.

    I now suspect he disconnected the battery to reset the cars computer ( i know this because i needed to get a radio code to work the radio again ) giving him 60 to 100kms of freedom before it comes back on. I've done some research and the guy is known for pulling fast ones.

    Mightnt be alot of money to most people on here, but I'm trying to get myself started off on the road, and at this time is alot to me. And the cheeky manor of how he possibly stung me and played me for the fool makes me wanna stand my ground.

    So with him having wrote ''Sold as seen'' on the receipt, have I a case because he possibly switched off the unboard computer when I was viewing it, known if I seen the engine light on I would've walked away straight away. Its basically false advertisement, and him pulling a fast one.

    Sorry for the essay, any help would be much thanked.


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    #2
    Procrastastudy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,224 ✭✭✭Procrastastudy


    You cant get specific legal advice here. Have you tried the consumer issues forum?

    Nevermind :)


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    #3
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    Do you know what's wrong with it yet? I suggest you get a diagnostic before you go accusing anyone. Could be a simple case of faulty wiring.


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    #4
    JayIre
    Registered Users Posts: 73 ✭✭JayIre


    GCDLawstudent wrote: »
    You cant get specific legal advice here. Have you tried the consumer issues forum?

    Will do.
    MagicSean wrote: »
    Do you know what's wrong with it yet? I suggest you get a diagnostic before you go accusing anyone. Could be a simple case of faulty wiring.

    I've already had the guy look at it the very next day, he just told me its fine and cleared the computer codes clean. The engine light came on that same night again. So I had a trust worthy garage look at it, engine code came up saying the o2 sensor was faulty, so I paid 90e to have it replaced. Then the next day the light comes on again, so its booked in for Monday.

    I just think its fishy that he disconnected the battery before I viewed it. And again the next day when I went back, told me there was nothing wrong with it.


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    #5
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    JayIre wrote: »
    Will do.



    I've already had the guy look at it the very next day, he just told me its fine and cleared the computer codes clean. The engine light came on that same night again. So I had a trust worthy garage look at it, engine code came up saying the o2 sensor was faulty, so I paid 90e to have it replaced. Then the next day the light comes on again, so its booked in for Monday.

    I just think its fishy that he disconnected the battery before I viewed it. And again the next day when I went back, told me there was nothing wrong with it.

    You talk about this trustworthy garage but they seem to have replaced a part and reset the light without actually fixing the problem. Not much different to the guy who sold it to you. Pay the €60 to get it diagnosed at a dealer and get a proper picture of what is wrong.


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    #6
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,461 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    JayIre wrote: »
    My question is, Was I stung? Have I any hope in hell of getting a refund from this guy? The receipt had ''sold as seen'' on it so I think I have no grounds to get any of my money back.

    So with him having wrote ''Sold as seen'' on the receipt, have I a case because he possibly switched off the unboard computer when I was viewing it, known if I seen the engine light on I would've walked away straight away. Its basically false advertisement, and him pulling a fast one.

    'Sold as seen' is meaningless, there is a specific wording to be used if the car is sold with no warranty and the buyer and seller must both sign off on it so if a trade seller writes that on the receipt it has no legal effect whatsoever. There is an implied warranty if you buy as a consumer from a trade seller and it can't be repudiated simply by the seller writing something on the receipt.

    Alarm bells should have rung when you saw that on the receipt, he was basically trying to wash his hands of the car even before you drove it away. It's clearly a turkey and he knew it.
    JayIre wrote: »
    I've done some research and the guy is known for pulling fast ones.

    You know that now, did you only discover the internet after you bought the car?
    JayIre wrote: »
    He might possibly be in with NCT inspectors and they are getting cars passed the nct which should fail, meaning the dealer and inspector are making a profit.

    Steady on there now, you've already said that the car is capable of driving for 60-100 kms before the engine light comes on after a reset so that is a big assumption to be making with no foundation.


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    #7
    JayIre
    Registered Users Posts: 73 ✭✭JayIre


    MagicSean wrote: »
    You talk about this trustworthy garage but they seem to have replaced a part and reset the light without actually fixing the problem. Not much different to the guy who sold it to you. Pay the €60 to get it diagnosed at a dealer and get a proper picture of what is wrong.

    These guys were not a main dealer, but I paid for the diagnostics, had the code failure and my name and reg on the invoice. OBD can only read one problem at a time I think.

    coylemj wrote: »
    'Sold as seen' is meaningless, there is a specific wording to be used if the car is sold with no warranty and the buyer and seller must both sign off on it so if a trade seller writes that on the receipt it has no legal effect whatsoever. There is an implied warranty if you buy as a consumer from a trade seller and it can't be repudiated simply by the seller writing something on the receipt.

    Alarm bells should have rung when you saw that on the receipt, he was basically trying to wash his hands of the car even before you drove it away. It's clearly a turkey and he knew it.



    You know that now, did you only discover the internet after you bought the car?



    Steady on there now, you've already said that the car is capable of driving for 60-100 kms before the engine light comes on after a reset so that is a big assumption to be making with no foundation.

    Yeah, I will admit I did raise alarm bells but him having a business I trusted him.

    It was a private add on donedeal that I picked out the car from, not even down as trade add. Only found out he was a dealer when I went to view it.

    From what I know, you can't test a car while the engine is in recycle.

    I think I've been had.
    Just hope they dont tell me Monday that its something serious like a cat convertor, which is about a 500e fix.


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    #8
    wexie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,480 ✭✭✭wexie


    JayIre wrote: »


    He might possibly be in with NCT inspectors and they are getting cars passed the nct which should fail, meaning the dealer and inspector are making a profit.

    Just because the car has passed an NCT doesn't mean there's nothing wrong with it. It just means that it's roadworthy (mostly) and there weren't any warning lights on when it was brought in.


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    #9
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,461 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    JayIre wrote: »
    It was a private add on donedeal that I picked out the car from, not even down as trade add. Only found out he was a dealer when I went to view it.

    So you knew he was dishonest the moment you first met him.


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    #10
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    Do not have anyone else do any more work on the car. Get the diagnostics done and bring it back to the dealer and tell him exactly what's wrong with the car and what you want him to fix. Don't listen to the "sold as seen" bull.


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    #11
    seb65
    Registered Users Posts: 402 ✭✭seb65


    Loosely, if someone knowingly makes a false claim that induces another to enter into a contract, it's fraudulent misrepresentation. I believe the remedy for that is rescission and damages. For a car sale, return of the car to the dealer and a refund of the buyer's price paid. Additionally, any other expenses incurred.

    Of course the difference in theory and practice is proving such occurred.

    Additionally, I've seen the check engine light come on in cars that were new/had nothing wrong with them. There could be nothing devastatingly wrong with the car.

    If he put sold as seen or whatever on the receipt - this cannot be an agreed upon term of the contract - the receipt is given after the contract is formed, no?


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    #12
    BornToKill
    Registered Users Posts: 1,053 ✭✭✭BornToKill


    seb65 wrote: »
    Loosely, if someone knowingly makes a false claim that induces another to enter into a contract, it's fraudulent misrepresentation. I believe the remedy for that is recession and damages.

    Recession seems a quite severe remedy for this situation. Is that a general recession or does only the car dealer suffer it?


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    #13
    seb65
    Registered Users Posts: 402 ✭✭seb65


    BornToKill wrote: »
    Recession seems a quite severe remedy for this situation. Is that a general recession or does only the car dealer suffer it?

    Haha...noted and edited :)

    Though, if it's selling lemons....perhaps a little recession for the dealership is deserved


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    #14
    Jesus Shaves
    Registered Users Posts: 2,959 ✭✭✭Jesus Shaves


    Get the diagnostics done at a main dealer and get the report sheet of the faults on the car before you decide anything


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    #15
    Donkathon
    Registered Users Posts: 932 ✭✭✭Donkathon


    sorry to de-rail the thread but find this interesting about the sold-as-seen

    how would you word it so it is legally binding sale with no come back?


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    #16
    krd
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,455 ✭✭✭krd


    Donkathon wrote: »
    sorry to de-rail the thread but find this interesting about the sold-as-seen

    how would you word it so it is legally binding sale with no come back?

    American second hand car dealers do it all the time. It's too stop people who've bought a cheap second hand car coming back and demanding a level of service as if it was a new car.

    A lot of the time those service lights mean nothing. They can just be the manufactures way of getting you to go for a service at one of their dealers.


    When you buy a second hand car, you've bought a second hand car. The rest is luck.

    My last car cost me four hundred quid. And I sold it for 150 quid. I think I got my 250 quids worth. Even though the electrics had been screwed through botched DIY, it needed a new battery.


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    #17
    Departed
    Registered Users Posts: 306 ✭✭Departed


    krd wrote: »
    When you buy a second hand car, you've bought a second hand car. The rest is luck.
    wrong. OP look here


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    #18
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    Moved to Consumer Issues.


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    #19
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,461 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    Donkathon wrote: »
    sorry to de-rail the thread but find this interesting about the sold-as-seen

    how would you word it so it is legally binding sale with no come back?

    Assuming we're talking about a consumer buying from a person in the trade....

    (2) Without prejudice to any other condition or warranty, in every contract for the sale of a motor vehicle (except a contract in which the buyer is a person whose business it is to deal in motor vehicles) there is an implied condition that at the time of delivery of the vehicle under the contract it is free from any defect which would render it a danger to the public, including persons travelling in the vehicle.

    (3) Subsection (2) of this section shall not apply where—

    (a) it is agreed between the seller and the buyer that the vehicle is not intended for use in the condition in which it is to be delivered to the buyer under the contract, and

    (b) a document consisting of a statement to that effect is signed by or on behalf of the seller and the buyer and given to the buyer prior to or at the time of such delivery, and

    (c) it is shown that the agreement referred to in paragraph (a) is fair and reasonable.

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1980/en/act/pub/0016/print.html#sec13

    So there would need to be a document drawn up stating that the vehicle was not intended for use in the condition it's in at the time of the sale and both the buyer and seller have to sign it. That's why the dealer unilaterally writing 'sold as seen' on the receipt does not get him off the hook as he seems to think.


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    #20
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    coylemj wrote: »
    Assuming we're talking about a consumer buying from a person in the trade....

    (2) Without prejudice to any other condition or warranty, in every contract for the sale of a motor vehicle (except a contract in which the buyer is a person whose business it is to deal in motor vehicles) there is an implied condition that at the time of delivery of the vehicle under the contract it is free from any defect which would render it a danger to the public, including persons travelling in the vehicle.

    (3) Subsection (2) of this section shall not apply where—

    (a) it is agreed between the seller and the buyer that the vehicle is not intended for use in the condition in which it is to be delivered to the buyer under the contract, and

    (b) a document consisting of a statement to that effect is signed by or on behalf of the seller and the buyer and given to the buyer prior to or at the time of such delivery, and

    (c) it is shown that the agreement referred to in paragraph (a) is fair and reasonable.

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1980/en/act/pub/0016/print.html#sec13

    So there would need to be a document drawn up stating that the vehicle was not intended for use in the condition it's in at the time of the sale and both the buyer and seller have to sign it. That's why the dealer unilaterally writing 'sold as seen' on the receipt does not get him off the hook as he seems to think.
    That provision is limited to the vehicle being safe to use (see the bit I highlighted).

    Other than the safety question, a consumer's rights are effectively defined by reasonableness. Follow Departed's link and look particularly at how "merchantable quality" is defined there:
    it should be of reasonable, acceptable quality given the age and history of the car
    Personally, I would add "and the price paid". You can't reasonably expect the same quality from a car priced at €1000 as you can from a car priced at €15000.

    OP paid €1850. At that price, I would not expect too much.


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    #21
    spaceHopper
    Registered Users Posts: 4,003 ✭✭✭spaceHopper


    Car dealers are meant to give you a 3 month gurantee it to stop them pulling a fast one

    You have to be fair to him and give him a chance to fix it. Why should he be responsable for you going to anothe gurage the may have replaced the wrong sensor often there are two and reset it so you are down the 90.

    Check over the car look for signs the mileage is higher.....ceck the rubber pipes around the air intake for splits that can mess up the sensor readings

    Go back to him and get him to repair it if he says no or messes you about return the car and ask for a refund if he wont then make a few posters park out side his fore court with them in display locked in the car and tell him for 1800 cash he can buy the car back make it impossible for him to sell a car that day or the next or the next let him know you will be back every saturday


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    #22
    slimjimmc
    Registered Users Posts: 7,786 ✭✭✭slimjimmc


    spaceHopper wrote: »
    Car dealers are meant to give you a 3 month gurantee it to stop them pulling a fast one.
    Rubbish, there is no obligation for any dealer (or any retailer for that matter) to provide any warranty in any form; but you do have statutory rights as a consumer which cannot be diminished.
    spaceHopper wrote: »
    You have to be fair to him and give him a chance to fix it. Why should he be responsable for you going to anothe gurage the may have replaced the wrong sensor often there are two and reset it so you are down the 90.

    Check over the car look for signs the mileage is higher.....ceck the rubber pipes around the air intake for splits that can mess up the sensor readings

    Go back to him and get him to repair it if he says no or messes you about return the car and ask for a refund if he wont then make a few posters park out side his fore court with them in display locked in the car and tell him for 1800 cash he can buy the car back make it impossible for him to sell a car that day or the next or the next let him know you will be back every saturday
    Agree with most, but doubt if the protest action will yield much success in this case.


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