centre fire semi auto rifle

black powder colt

I was just wondering if anyone could share their experience in aquireing a centre fire semi auto rifle the reaction from the boys in blue waiting times and the reaction in diferent parts of the country im in clare and have no idea what the cheif is like anyone in clare with a semi or any restricted firearm for that matter.

gunhappy_ie

Youve got CS John Kerin, unless you plan on going to court then dont bother applying ... hes very anti gun.

GH

Grizzly 45

I will heartily concur with Gunhappy's opinion .:(

rowa

I tried it a while ago , hit a brick wall straight away. Basically i think its like the cf pistols in that there is a de facto ban apart from one or two deliberately Licenced by a chief super to prove to the courts/media that they are allowed in their "patch".

The way the law/guidelines are drawn up is ridiculous, you can only licence a semi cf if you can prove that another non restricted rifle won't do , i can't think of any instance when this would be the case. Surely the fact that someone is a proven member of an authorised range,has the required security at home and uses the rifle on a regular basis should be enough.

Robotack

I believe (but not for sure) that there are folks in the VCRAI that have M1 Garands... They might be worth a call to see if they can help you out... As a matter of interest, what do you want it for?

Mike87

I got refused one last year for no good reason. When I asked whats a good reason I was told, unofficially of course, there is no good reason.

tac foley

The VCRAI was set up deliberately with the intention of target shooting vintage and classic arms, mostly military, although any other firearm that fits the description of being vintage and classic may be used under the present rules.

I only have just TWO actual military firearms, although one of them, an 1897 Mauser carbine, was used by a civilian in defence of his homeland against the British, but ALL but one of my others are either vintage or classic.

The M1 Garand certainly fits right in there, but sadly, membership of an association is NOT the same as being a member of a range/club in the RoI. It is still down to the interpretation of the firearms law by your local police officer. And at least, the Garand actually looks like an older-style rifle, being made of wood and steel, and not like the 'dreaded black assault rifle' that keeps many supers lying awake at nights.

tac

Grizzly 45

rowa wrote: »

I tried it a while ago , hit a brick wall straight away. Basically i think its like the cf pistols in that there is a de facto ban apart from one or two deliberately Licenced by a chief super to prove to the courts/media that they are allowed in their "patch".

The way the law/guidelines are drawn up is ridiculous, you can only licence a semi cf if you can prove that another non restricted rifle won't do , i can't think of any instance when this would be the case. Surely the fact that someone is a proven member of an authorised range,has the required security at home and uses the rifle on a regular basis should be enough.

PM sent;)

black powder colt

Robotack wrote: »

I believe (but not for sure) that there are folks in the VCRAI that have M1 Garands... They might be worth a call to see if they can help you out... As a matter of interest, what do you want it for?

putting holes in paper and perhaps the odd fox but i prefer my enfield for that id like something different. An m1 would be nice but if i would have to go to court it might as well be a g43.;) To be honest i dont need the hassle my local gardai have been good to me i recently got over 2000rds on my licence and its no pea shooter.:cool:

black powder colt

gunhappy_ie wrote: »

Youve got CS John Kerin, unless you plan on going to court then dont bother applying ... hes very anti gun.

GH

what age group is he.early retirement anyone.:DIn truth at the back of my mind i allready suspected that .:(

black powder colt

rowa wrote: »

I tried it a while ago , hit a brick wall straight away. Basically i think its like the cf pistols in that there is a de facto ban apart from one or two deliberately Licenced by a chief super to prove to the courts/media that they are allowed in their "patch".

The way the law/guidelines are drawn up is ridiculous, you can only licence a semi cf if you can prove that another non restricted rifle won't do , i can't think of any instance when this would be the case. Surely the fact that someone is a proven member of an authorised range,has the required security at home and uses the rifle on a regular basis should be enough.

How about semi auto rifle shooting compitision

black powder colt

now ive got one that will cause sudden bowl movements in any cheif supers office google HZA KULMBACH BD44:cool::cool::cool::cool: damm thats sweet.i would pay just to watch someone shoot that thing

Grizzly 45

black powder colt wrote: »

How about semi auto rifle shooting compitision

There are two 1500/BDMP disiplines that require both restricted semi auto rifles and shotguns,and I am trying to get some folks intrested and a range that might host one here in Ireland. It would be a good crack alright and is becoming along with the M1 carbines one of the faster growing disiplines in Germany.

HZA KULMBACH BD44 damm thats sweet.i would pay just to watch someone shoot that thing

You see the price of it????:eek: For that money I'd be looking at a new SIG 751 .308 SAPR with some bells and whistles.
However German sport guns are making a copy of the Mp44 in 22lr,which might be a cheaper and easier option to liscense too.

tac foley

GSG are making a .22 replica of the StG44 and the MP40. The first one may get to the RoI, but I have grave doubts about the second one.

See - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MO2TrxviR0I

tac

MacsuibhneR

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

There are two 1500/BDMP disiplines that require both restricted semi auto rifles and shotguns,and I am trying to get some folks intrested and a range that might host one here in Ireland. It would be a good crack alright and is becoming along with the M1 carbines one of the faster growing disiplines in Germany.

How are getting on with this. I for one would be very interested in taking part in this type of competition and there is a bit of interest in it with a few of the shooting people I know. It might make sense if we could see if a competion would be viable before we then apply for the licence on the basis that it is needed for these types of competition. If, as thought, the licences are refused outright there are at least then a couple of people ready to go to the district court to fight it out there. If a few applications are made by serious shooting people initially and at the same time the CS will know what is coming if the licences are refused for "no good reason" and (in my district at least) I think common sense would prevail. It would however help if we could show such competitions will be taking part here.

Sparks

MacsuibhneR wrote: »

It might make sense if we could see if a competion would be viable before we then apply for the licence on the basis that it is needed for these types of competition.

As a lot of IPSC shooters can now unfortunately tell you, that's a plan with a weakness (namely that if that type of competition gets banned under section 4C of the act, then your licence is in trouble because your section 4(2)(a) "good reason" has just gone away, and your licence can be immediately revoked under section 5(1)(a) as a result).

virgindrummer

Sparks wrote: »

As a lot of IPSC shooters can now unfortunately tell you, that's a plan with a weakness (namely that if that type of competition gets banned under section 4C of the act, then your licence is in trouble because your section 4(2)(a) "good reason" has just gone away, and your licence can be immediately revoked under section 5(1)(a) as a result).

There are shooting disciplines which are legal, and which require the use of a semi-automatic centre fire rifle. High Power is one, M1 gallery rifle is another. But if a few people with FALs decide to start a club, holding regular competitions requiring the use of a FAL, then they have indisputable good reason to licence those rifles. Or a few mates could decide to start a semi-auto centre fire league, holding regular shoots at an approved range...

virgindrummer

Also, from my reading of section 4C, Practical Shooting is not banned as it is not an "activity in which firearms are used to simulate combat or combat training.”

So it is not any more illegal than a tennis competition called "Practical Shooting".

juice1304

If it is'nt illegal then why do you think everyone stopped and won't shoot ipsc matches now? I think you should have a read over it again.

MacsuibhneR

Sparks wrote: »

As a lot of IPSC shooters can now unfortunately tell you, that's a plan with a weakness (namely that if that type of competition gets banned under section 4C of the act, then your licence is in trouble because your section 4(2)(a) "good reason" has just gone away, and your licence can be immediately revoked under section 5(1)(a) as a result).

That's a fair point, but we would be forcing them to do that, which is another step that it is unlikely that they could do overnight. Also if ranges and competitions are set up, rifles bought etc. (before the competition is banned) then under the doctrine of "Legitimate Expectation" there could be a chance that the state would have to compensate anyone affected.

I suppose I am approaching it from the view point of what happened center fire pistols. These were legal (after all the cases etc.) and then they were banned for anyone who did not have one prior to the 1st of November 2008 (I think it was 2008 but if I am wrong please feel free to correct me as I always get the date mixed up). My own view is that the reason they allowed the old licences to remain was due to the fact that anyone who had paid money to buy a licence, set up competitons and ranges etc. would more llikely than not seek compensation and the powers that be probably considered it better just to simply let the relatively small number of licences remain.

Now, presently centre fire semi automatic rifles are possible to licence but this really could change at any time. If a few people got together to see about setting up competitions here then applications could be made. Due to the fact of the Dail's summer recess and also due to the fact that at most we are probably only talking about a relatively low number of applications now could be a good time to do this. The government also have bigger worries coming up with the restructing of the banks, budget etc. so they will have other priorities than banning these competitions. So long as the competions stay away from being overly "military" they should be fine anyway or at least a ban could be contested.

The first step would be to see if anyone is interested in these type of competitions and then see if some sort of group (perhaps modelled on the VCRAI without having it's own range but able to use others) could be set up. Then join the group, put down your deposit, put down your reason and see what happens. Grizzly 45 is trying to set up a competition and it would be great if he is able to do this and it would be interesting to see how he is getting on. If there are no competitions here then it would be necessary to travel abroad (not the UK where these rifles are banned) and it is unlikely I for one would have the time to do this on a regular basis. With me anyway the rifle would then probaly sit for months on end in the safe apart from the odd range day. It is one thing to want to own one of these rifles but another to pay all the money for range fees and security etc. that would be needed to get one. That said if you don't try you will not succeed and I would love either an AR-15 type or a FN-FAL.

Any way that's just what I think but I do not want to miss the boat on the semi auto centre fire rifles, like I did with the pistols.

Sparks

virgindrummer wrote: »

There are shooting disciplines which are legal, and which require the use of a semi-automatic centre fire rifle.

I'm not saying there are not; nor am I saying Grizz is trying to start an illegal activity.

My point is that if your licence for a firearm which fails the Idontlikethelookofdat test in a lot of areas, is dependant on one single activity which will probably also fail the idontlikethelookofdat test in those same areas, and there's precedent for banning activities under what is basicly an idontlikethelookofthat test in statute law... well, your licence is not as secure and unassailable as you'd think.

Personally, I'd just put down "target shooting" as my good reason (as I always have). It's perfectly legitimate, perfectly honest and perfectly straightforward. And it means that I wouldn't need to get a new licence if I tried a new kind of target shooting...

Sparks

MacsuibhneR wrote: »

That's a fair point, but we would be forcing them to do that, which is another step that it is unlikely that they could do overnight.

What steps do you think are involved?
All the Minister has to do is draft an SI listing what's covered by 4C and sign it; it doesn't go near the dail, it doesn't need oversight, nobody in the PTB would argue with him and with the FCP now essentially gone, there's nobody who has a snowball's chance of stopping that (please, don't say "oh, group X would beat them in the courts" because nobody would have a hope of winning a case where the Minister used authority granted to him in statute law, the Irish courts have thrown out cases for years on those kind of points - he'd have to be taking the mick for them to even hear the case).

Also if ranges and competitions are set up, rifles bought etc. (before the competition is banned) then under the doctrine of "Legitimate Expectation" there could be a chance that the state would have to compensate anyone affected.

(a) that's the worst kind of "I'm alright Jack" thinking; and (b) I wouldn't bet my house on winning that kind of court case.

Not to mention (c) which is that in the long run, your sport is now dead because it can't get new people into it and all sports lose people through natural attrition as they find new sports or just stop participating.

Now, presently centre fire semi automatic rifles are possible to licence but this really could change at any time.

Well, technically this is true; but it's equally true that centerfire pistols could return at any time. The mechanism for both possibilities is the same; amending the restricted firearms SI.

If I were trying to ensure the availability of specific firearms, I'd invest in lobbying to amend that SI to a more favorable form a lot more readily than I would invest in building ranges and buying rifles; at least the former would have a chance of working, and there's a wider support base for amending it because it impacts so many groups in our community.

The government also have bigger worries coming up with the restructing of the banks, budget etc. so they will have other priorities than banning these competitions.

Well, that's one viewpoint.
Mine would differ slightly; I'd think that if the government was so overloaded with work they couldn't look good doing even if they do it perfectly; then they'd be on the look-out for cheap PR and "banning those dangerous weapons" is a favorite of people in that frame of mind (see the actions of Deasy, Mitchell, DeBurca, Ahern and others in the recent past).


Honestly though, if you want to shoot these rifles, I'd say just go shoot them. Not as a method to effect political change, but because, well, if you want to do it, just go do it?.

tac foley

Sparks wrote - 'Honestly though, if you want to shoot these rifles, I'd say just go shoot them. Not as a method to effect political change, but because, well, if you want to do it, just go do it?'

And THAT, Ladies and Gentlemen, is the very best reason of all.

For people like us, there is no other reason than the satisfaction of following our many-faceted sport of shooting - in whatever form it takes.

Here in UK, as has been pointed out, ALL semi-auto centre-fire rifles and carbines have been banned since 1988 - we have to make do with straight-pull monstrosities instead and get laffed at by the rest of the world. And on the mainland UK cartridge-firing handguns were banned, and the sport of target handgun shooting has died, apart from a literal handful who remember what it was like to shoot. There will be no more pistol shooters coming down the line for international competition, unless they come from the north of Ireland.

All power to those of you who want to shoot a semi-auto centrefire firearm - the Vintage Classic Rifle Association of Ireland awaits your membership, and if the M1 Garand, M1 carbine and the FAL are not vintage AND classic, I don't know what is.

tac

rowa

tac foley wrote: »

All power to those of you who want to shoot a semi-auto centrefire firearm - the Vintage Classic Rifle Association of Ireland awaits your membership, and if the M1 Garand, M1 carbine and the FAL are not vintage AND classic, I don't know what is.

tac

The gardai don't care that an m1, m14 or g43 is a classic battle rifle though tac, as i found out when i applied for an m14 clone, to them it is simply a restricted firearm and it has come down from on high to the chief supers of this country " don't licence these if you can find a legal way to refuse it " , (or not so legal if you want to fiddle around with the application forms).

Part of the blame falls on the shooting orgs who supported the whole "restricted" system, surely the way firearms licencing should be administered is the "person" is licenced and not the gun or type of gun ? How can someone be perfectly safe with one type of firearm (a semi shotgun say) but a danger to public safety with a semi cf rifle ?

juice1304

or people turning into super ninja assassins if granted a mod.

MacsuibhneR

tac foley wrote: »

Sparks wrote -

'Honestly though, if you want to shoot these rifles, I'd say just go shoot
them. Not as a method to effect political change, but because, well, if you want
to do it, just go do it?'

And THAT, Ladies and Gentlemen, is the very best reason of all.

Wonder if my CS, will think that's a good reason, I doubt it.

All power to those of you who want to shoot a semi-auto centrefire firearm - the
Vintage Classic Rifle Association of Ireland awaits your membership, and if the
M1 Garand, M1 carbine and the FAL are not vintage AND classic, I don't know what
is.

Do the VCRAI run competitions where a FAL would be allowed ? If so it would appear that they would be a good place to start.

It's not that I want to change the world, it is more a case that if my CS says why do you need, for example an FN FAL, it would definitely make sense to be able to say that I need it to take part in a suitable competition. If I merely put down target shooting I suspect his reply will be that a bolt action would be adequate and refuse the licence on the basis that a non-restricted fire-arm would do instead of a restricted one. I would be wasting my time appealing this as I would have no real arguement to contradict it. If however I was able to say I need it to take part in such and such a competition and only this type of rifle is allowed, then so long as the competition is legal, then I have shown my good reason.

I take on board Sparks point about only an SI would need to be implemented to ban these outright, but even these do take a bit of time for the state to do, and for the relatively small numbers we are talking about I think there is at least a hope that it really wouldn't be worth their while and would fall below the radar.

With regards to my selfish thinking, he again has a point, but I do not think anyone who went to all the hassle and effort to get a centre fire pistol was selfish. Likewise If I and any others do the same thing for semi auto center fire rifles then I think it is fair enough. The point I am making is that they could be banned in the future so the time to apply is now as there will be no point applying after a ban.

Of course it is not good for the sport if they were banned and only a small number of people had them. That goes without saying, however if competitions were set up and more and more people get these types of firearms without the country falling into anarchy then perhaps it could be used in the arguement to get the pistol ban lifted.

On the point about spending the money to lobby the government I would have to disagree. I think that the state see no advantage in changing the law and so are unlikely to do this. I think it is better to use the laws that are there but apply and organise in such a way that it is very difficult for the state to say no in a legal way. Setting up competitions would, I think, allow this.

As said earlier it would be great if these competions could be organised as it would give people a reason to not only own and but also enjoy and use these types of firearms. I do believe that these competitons would also have the effect of limiting the reasons that a Chief Super could use to refuse the licences and if it could be shown that others had received licences in different districts to take part in such competions then that of course would strengthen any appeal in the District Court. If the VCRAI already do this (and they may very well do given the fact that the AR, FN etc. were designed in the 50's and the AK and STG were designed in the 40s) then that is great and something I will check out.

tac foley

Stated Aim of the Vintage & Classic Rifle Association of Ireland - 'Our aim is to promote & develop the sport of Vintage & Classic target rifle shooting in the Republic of Ireland, and to foster associations with like-minded shooters in other countries to the benefit of all of who love old guns. We therefore welcome members from all clubs. The VCRAI regularly holds competitions both in Ireland and abroad, including recent trips to the world famous NRA UK Bisley range. Range days are held throughout the year. One of the appealing elements of this type of target shooting is the simplicity of equipment needed. Just one person and one vintage or classic rifle.'

Give John Kavanagh at Fingal sports a call, or wait here for Mick O'connor, who is secretary of the association. Right now there is no one competition that is given over to the use of one type of vintage military rifle such as the semi-auto FAL, but that can only be because there are so few of them around. Sparks is trying to set up a suitable venue and shoot where self-loaders only are used, but again, with so few in private hands it will need a real effort by those few who DO have them to make his efforts worth while.

The situation is so Catch-22 that it's laughable - no guns unless there is a competetion in which this type of firearm is used, and no competition unless there is something to shoot it with.

What is needed is some sensible decision-making by the AGS...the point already having been made that if you can be trusted with a shotgun - the most criminally-popular firearm used in the western world -then you can be trusted with a self-loading centre-fire rifle or carbine.

Some of you already are - why should anybody else be different?

So really, gentlemen, it's over to you.

tac

Grizzly 45

NO I am NOT trying to set up an illegal competition as suggestedor thought of for some reason here!!!:mad: For those who think I am I suggest you go away and look under the BDMP ZG4 [Zeilfernrohr gewehr 4 trans ; scoped rifle 4] rules.

Which are pretty simple .
Gun weight 6.5kg with scope, max 10 power magnification. Bipod allowed to 150mm length ,centrefire ammo to 8mm,no muzzle break,flash hider

ZG modified rifle weight 10 kg inc scope, no max on the magnification power, muzzle break allowed
trigger weight at max 1500 grams for ZG 4
and modified 1000grams.

As the Germans say themselves simple ,clear and good fun.

Shooting sequence 5 shots ZG4 are 5 seconds and for modified 8 seconds at 100 meters in 5 tests into a "6" ring target .Shot sitting at bench ,standing,or prone as decided beforehand at the competition
No running,jumping or anything else "combat ":rolleyes: related.
Pretty much any of the semis used in Ireland from ARs to Sigs can be used for this.Well, compared to some of the semi match guns they use over,we might find out how really accurate these milspec issued rifles we have really are.:P Also,people find out quickly how useless the tacticool folding and otherwise stocks are.Not that you cant use them mind,they just arent very suitable for this kind of accurate shooting.

I have also seen this done with skittles or steel plates at 200 meters under a 30 sec rule,it is not as easy as it sounds.You think the semi will compensate for reloading,it does somwhat,but remember it is less accurate betimes too.

So folks,it is really only a question of finding a range who will allow us to run a shoot,people having an intrest to do this kind of shooting and getting some prizes together.If you are intrested PM moi,or have a chat with your club,and I or they can contact me or vice versa and we will see if we can get one going before the years out.

Grizzly 45

[

QUOTE=tac foley;79657854]Sparks wrote - 'Honestly though, if you want to shoot these rifles, I'd say just go shoot them. Not as a method to effect political change, but because, well, if you want to do it, just go do it?'

And THAT, Ladies and Gentlemen, is the very best reason of all.

Sums it up nicely both comments.


[/QUOTE]
All power to those of you who want to shoot a semi-auto centrefire firearm - the Vintage Classic Rifle Association of Ireland awaits your membership, and if the M1 Garand, M1 carbine and the FAL are not vintage AND classic, I don't know what is.

tac[/QUOTE]

Would a original style AR15 a1 classify nowadays as vintage??The design is now well over 50 years old.

Grizzly 45

juice1304 wrote: »

If it is'nt illegal then why do you think everyone stopped and won't shoot ipsc matches now? I think you should have a read over it again.

Reckon alot of it has got to do with the politics of shooting here in the ROI and the fact it did itself with hindsight,a lot of no favours thru internal politics and stupidity.Not to mind smear and rumour campaigns from both sides of the shooting world.
In short IPSC in Ireland came in too hard ,too fast,too soon,and had no backup position to fall to should the handguns have fallen.

I tried years ago to get folks intrested in doing IPSC
with shotguns,from the 1980s onwards,when it was known under the ghastly UN PC name of combat shotgunning in the UK my .AS usual it was looked on with fear trepidation and unintrest by the shooting community,those that could be reached by letter inthe pre "net days.:rolleyes:.
It would have been easier to modify your semi or pump at the time,been easier to accept for people in power ,and by the time handguns came back [if ever as we thought at the time] IPSC would have been an established sport in Ireland,possibly being shot with shotguns and semi .22lr.rifles

Yes a match could be run here..BUT who will run the risk of playing against the kind of loaded odds you can be sure you would face in the legal battle in the courts.If we still have AGS "firearms experts" insisting that 1500 is combat training,or that IPSC "race guns" are issued to "elite units like the ERU and Ranger wing.."[Comparison would be like driving a NASCAR as an everyday commuter around town.]

How easy do you think it would be for them to weasel IPSC to IDPA and make it out to be "combat shooting".

It will proably come back here in the future,I might shoot my second Irish IPSC match from my wheelchair or Zimmerframe....:rolleyes:but there is a time and place to fight your battles,and the battle for IPSC in Ireland is definately not now!!!!

tac foley

Mr Grizzly - The VCRAI makes no distinction between single-shot, multiple-shot, bolt-action or semi-auto firearms, so long as they are military, ex-military, used to train the military, used by police of any description, or either are already known to be either a vintage or a classic type of firearm of any calibre that is legal to own in the Republic of Ireland. Obviously, the older they are, the better, and therefore, in the eyes of many of us who shoot them, definitive classic firearms. There are still arguments about whether or not the likes of the FAL [designed by Dieudonne Saveé in 1948 and used by almost 50 nations] is quite as 'vintage' as the 1936-designed M1 Garand. It's a moot point, and one that is certain to grab the attention of a CS who is anti-gun in any event. If this be the case, then nothing will get you licensed.

This really needs far more looking into than a casual glance would suggest. The sport of practical rifle was invented here in UK, and until it all went tits up back in 1988, almost a quarter of all target rifle shooters in the UK - say roughly 45,000 - had a semi-auto of one kind or another. I had seven.

One man - who should never have been allowed to even look at a gun magazine - went mad, and result was that we ALL lost our semi-auto centre-fires for ever.

In 1996, another man, a known pervert, went mad in Scotland, and the result was that we all lost our cartridge-firing handguns for ever - on the mainland UK.

Meanwhile shotguns - that are used, we are told, in over 90% of all crimes involving firearms - are not only still permitted, but the sport of Practical Shotgun [the PC name for the former combat shotgun] is getting more popular by leaps and bounds. My own club - one of only seven in the UK - is one such centre of this sport, with every member of the PS squad a qualified RCO as well.

Might I suggest that you make contact with the boys in the VCRAI and try and sort something out between you for a combined shoot over at An Riocht?

My advice is to do it soon.

Best

tac