2 pictures to sum up Iniesta

Liam O

Well seeing as how Ronaldo only scored 4 less all that table proves is that Barca are far too reliant on Messi for goals.

Bodhisopha

Cienciano wrote: »

I think the trophies = quality argument doesn't work. If it does you may also think Vladimir Smicer was a better player than Gabriel Batistuta. Although that wouldn't surprise me if you think Zidane was the most over rated player in the history of football

It's only part of the argument. Smicer or Batistuta are not comparable with Iniesta or Zidane because they did not play for the elite clubs in their countries, if anything they exceeded expectations.

The Juventus and Real teams he played for really should have won more than they did. Again, an amazing player but not as consistent as he should have been.

CongoPowers

Sanity_Saviour wrote: »

Well deserved my arse, Messi and Ronaldo are in a different galaxy to every other player in the world right now.

Easy. Not even Messi is in a "different galaxy" to Iniesta.

Bodhisopha is right about Zidane being inconsistent over a season. A lot of the time he just wasn't arsed, but like Iniesta, a great big game player.

BetterCallSaul

73 Goals + 28 Assists in a single season. That is all.

I can't even do that with him on Fifa.

PhlegmyMoses

Can't compare Keane and Iniesta. Two fundamentally different players. Iniesta is actually quite a unique midfielder. Not sure who he is comparable to.

As an aside, Keane gets an incredibly hard rap from fans. He was pretty much the best midfielder of his kind in Europe for around ten years. You could put him in any side and he would have the same effect. His performance level didn't drop. Very few players you could say that about. Not even Messi and Ronaldo.

Anyway, Iniesta is a great footballer and it's nice to see someone other than Messi or Ronaldo pick up the award.

Bodhisopha

CongoPowers wrote: »

Easy. Not even Messi is in a "different galaxy" to Iniesta.

Bodhisopha is right about Zidane being inconsistent over a season. A lot of the time he just wasn't arsed, but like Iniesta, a great big game player.

While he's had some amazing big games, he's had his share of underwhelming ones too, not to mention that headbutt. Not sure what was going through his head that day. He's actually lost in more finals than he has won.

Sanity_Saviour

CongoPowers wrote: »

Easy. Not even Messi is in a "different galaxy" to Iniesta.

Bodhisopha is right about Zidane being inconsistent over a season. A lot of the time he just wasn't arsed, but like Iniesta, a great big game player.

Im not saying Iniesta isn't one of the best players in the world right now, but he is nowhere near the standard Messi and Ronaldo set last season. Wonderful player, but cannot be spoken of in the same breath of those two.

TheDoc

Iniesta is the best midfielder of all time

The_Kew_Tour

So Zidane has Man of the Match awards in European Cup and World Cup finals and yet he does not show up for big games!!!

Come off it.

Bodhisopha

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

So Zidane has Man of the Match awards in European Cup and World Cup finals and yet he does not show up for big games!!!

Come off it.

Who said he doesn't show up for big games?

Pro. F

Bodhisopha wrote: »

3 league titles and 1 Champions League. Now do Iniesta, or would you rather wait 7 or 8 years until his career has finished?

You said he "really didn't win all that much at club level." That was stupid and wrong and Elefant proved that to you.

The fact that Iniesta has won more at club level doesn't make him the better player, he is obviously part of a better team with far more stable management.

It is always a ridiculous argument when somebody tries to use a medal count as proof for one player over another in these debates. It is idiotic when the supposedly losing player is a league, CL, WC and EC winner.

The_Kew_Tour

Bodhisopha wrote: »

While he's had some amazing big games, he's had his share of underwhelming ones too, not to mention that headbutt. Not sure what was going through his head that day. He's actually lost in more finals than he has won.

Bodhisopha wrote: »

Who said he doesn't show up for big games?

You said he had some amazing games, but concluded to say that he has failed more then he has delivered which imo is BS.

No reason to like Zidane btw.

I just dont agree. Thats all.

Paully D

blue-army wrote: »

I really can't understand how someone can score 50 league goals in 37 games, in what is one of the world's best leagues and not win the award!

Messi is simply a different class. A quick look at the La Liga table NOT including Messi or Ronaldo's goals last season says it all.

I don't like these sort of tables, for the simple reason if Messi and Ronaldo weren't there both clubs would have other world class players playing in their place to score goals, and for all we know they could get more (as unlikely as it is).

smcelhinney

blue-army wrote: »

I really can't understand how someone can score 50 league goals in 37 games, in what is one of the world's best leagues and not win the award!

Messi is simply a different class. A quick look at the La Liga table NOT including Messi or Ronaldo's goals last season says it all.

Valencia second??! Yes! I'll take that. No, you cant take it back. Posting this table on boards.ie commits it to the annals of history. No take back.

wonderfullife

To be fair to that chap Bodisopha he does have a valid point re: Zidane. He was prone to going completely AWOL at times during games. Magnificently gifted, NOT over-rated, but consistent? By no means. He was fairly consistent (and class) when it mattered though in the big games, the finals etc. But faced with the likes of Livorno or Genoa away he was prone to going missing. Ronaldinho did the same sort of thing to a greater extent around the same time. Great talent but susceptible to go from anonymous to unreal depending on his mood.

Roy Keane in his prime was absolute pure class - great in possession, rarely gave the ball away, good positionally, good timing of runs etc. He was just an out and out world class defensive midfielder. Iniesta is pure class as well just more of a Scholes type of player than a Keane. I think Iniesta is already assured of his name living long in the memory in our lifetimes as a class footballer.

Bodhisopha

Pro. F wrote: »

You said he "really didn't win all that much at club level." That was stupid and wrong and Elefant proved that to you.

The fact that Iniesta has won more at club level doesn't make him the better player, he is obviously part of a better team with far more stable management.

It is always a ridiculous argument when somebody tries to use a medal count as proof for one player over another in these debates. It is idiotic when the supposedly losing player is a league, CL, WC and EC winner.

Firstly, the medal count isn't the whole argument, i merely used it to show that he hasn't won as much as many perhaps assume. I'm sure many don't realise how little he has won throughout his club career despite playing in some pretty fantastic teams. Personally, i'm surprised he hasn't won more.

My main argument against Zidane being the better player would be a lack of consistency as viewed through my own eyes as one of the few on here who watched La Liga week in, week out during the Galactico era. While not the whole argument, and i agree with you it would be stupid argument if it were the whole argument, they are relevant stats.

Bodhisopha

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

You said he had some amazing games, but concluded to say that he has failed more then he has delivered which imo is BS.

No reason to like Zidane btw.

I just dont agree. Thats all.

But did i say he failed to show up for big games? No. Please try to understand what i am saying and spare me the sensationalism.

He has been underwhelming in some big games, that's a fact. Amazing in some, underwhelming in others. I don't know if this makes him the ultimate big game player or whatever some were saying. I don't think so.

Pro. F

Bodhisopha wrote: »

Firstly, the medal count isn't the whole argument, i merely used it to show that he hasn't won as much as many perhaps assume. I'm sure many don't realise how little he has won throughout his club career despite playing in some pretty fantastic teams. Personally, i'm surprised he hasn't won more.

You are still not telling the truth about what you said. You said he "really didn't win all that much at club level" which is wrong and when you were shown that you started talking about what Iniesta has won instead.

Bodhisopha wrote: »

My main argument against Zidane being the better player would be a lack of consistency as viewed through my own eyes as one of the few on here who watched La Liga week in, week out during the Galactico era. While not the whole argument, and i agree with you it would be stupid argument if it were the whole argument, they are relevant stats.

You're not the only one who watched him regularly. I watched a reasonable amount of Madrid during those years and for his final season I was living in Spain and watched a shít load of Primera Liga that season. I also watched plenty of Seria A during his time at Juventus.

I would agree that he wasn't as consistent as Iniesta throughout the course of a season. But that Galacticos team was very badly managed and very dysfunctional at times. They played football in a ridiculous fashion a lot of the time and that wasn't Zidane's fault.

If you want to give more credit to Iniesta because he has consistently produced quality while playing in a consistent team then fair enough. But making out that Zidane was anything other than one of the all time greats is ridiculous.

Bodhisopha

Pro. F wrote: »

You are still not telling the truth about what you said. You said he "really didn't win all that much at club level" which is wrong and when you were shown that you started talking about what Iniesta has won instead.



You're not the only one who watched him regularly. I watched a reasonable amount of Madrid during those years and for his final season I was living in Spain and watched a shít load of Primera Liga that season. I also watched plenty of Seria A during his time at Juventus.

I would agree that he wasn't as consistent as Iniesta throughout the course of a season. But that Galacticos team was very badly managed and very dysfunctional at times. They played football in a ridiculous fashion a lot of the time and that wasn't Zidane's fault.

If you want to give more credit to Iniesta because he has consistently produced quality while playing in a consistent team then fair enough. But making out that Zidane was anything other than one of the all time greats is ridiculous.

Wait, not telling the truth? I stand by what i said. He really did not win that much at club level. Obviously, i am holding him to a higher standard and he has won more than most ever will but considering the teams he was playing in, the players he had alongside him his return is not that fantastic.

I have never said, or attempted to make out that Zidane is not one of the all time greats. Now you really are lying. Still, for my money he is overrated, this does not mean he was not an amazing player, he was. But as far as i'm concerned he was on the same level as players like Ronaldinho, Iniesta and Xavi yet so many consider it laughable to suggest such.

The_Kew_Tour

Bodhisopha wrote: »

But did i say he failed to show up for big games? No. Please try to understand what i am saying and spare me the sensationalism.

He has been underwhelming in some big games, that's a fact. Amazing in some, underwhelming in others. I don't know if this makes him the ultimate big game player or whatever some were saying. I don't think so.

So why did you say he lost more finals then he won? Why did that matter? Your the one that said it not me.

Bodhisopha

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

So why did you say he lost more finals then he won? Why did that matter? Your the one that said it not me.

Just kicking the facts. Not sure exactly what was said, but some are talking as if he is the ultimate big game player, but having lost more than he has won, plus a meltdown in another, it wouldn't appear so.

pickarooney

I'm not sure why it's being disputed that Zidane didn't win all that much at club level. One or two leagues and a CL is not a huge haul for a player of his calibre playing as the lynchpin of the big teams he was at. He was inconsistent for many seasons and flopped more than once on the biggest stages (the CL final against Dortmund for example). He also had a mean streak and was not adverse to lashing out and stamping and of course head-butting. While he often made the essential positive difference to his team (as in 1998 and part of 2006) he also often ****ed things up by getting sent off and banned. His goalscoring record was singularly unimpressive for a player of his talent and his number of assists was also relatively low. If I'm not mistaken, his first and only assist for Henry was in 2006.

I love the guy but while his talent was undeniable his consistency was questionable. He is regularly lauded for the former while the latter goes unmentioned, making him, in my view, very over-rated.

Pro. F

Bodhisopha wrote: »

Wait, not telling the truth? I stand by what i said. He really did not win that much at club level. Obviously, i am holding him to a higher standard and he has won more than most ever will but considering the teams he was playing in, the players he had alongside him his return is not that fantastic.

It seems we just have different views as to what qualifies as winning "all that much at club level."

Bodhisopha wrote: »

I have never said, or attempted to make out that Zidane is not one of the all time greats. Now you really are lying. Still, for my money he is overrated, this does not mean he was not an amazing player, he was. But as far as i'm concerned he was on the same level as players like Ronaldinho, Iniesta and Xavi yet so many consider it laughable to suggest such.

Right, well since you think of Zidane as one of the all time greats our opinions aren't that far apart. I don't agree that the others you mention are on the same level as him, but I see where you're coming from.

Red Crow

Lots of people think Zidane was overrated. I'm not in that club but I don't think someone should be ridiculed for holding that opinion.

TheDoc

Eli Manning wrote: »

Lots of people think Zidane was overrated. I'm not in that club but I don't think someone should be ridiculed for holding that opinion.

Yes....yes they should....

Hold on now, I'm one for giving people the benefit of the doubt, and accepting opposing sides of a debate, I really am.

But sometimes, there is a topic so dumbfounded and outragous that it is not worth wasting breath on.

Zidane being "over rated", is definitely one of them.

Bodhisopha

TheDoc wrote: »

Yes....yes they should....

Hold on now, I'm one for giving people the benefit of the doubt, and accepting opposing sides of a debate, I really am.

But sometimes, there is a topic so dumbfounded and outragous that it is not worth wasting breath on.

Zidane being "over rated", is definitely one of them.

Out of interest. Just where do you rate him?

Best of a generation? Best French player of all time? Best you've seen? Top 5? 10? 20?

TheDoc

Bodhisopha wrote: »

Out of interest. Just where do you rate him?

Best of a generation? Best French player of all time? Best you've seen? Top 5? 10? 20?

He would probably go into a few lists for me, think he had such an overriding effect as being someone I watched aswell. I guess the following goes from my viewing of football the last 15 years or so, so obviously I might have to bow to people who bust out the " well when I used to watch Maradona"

But for me, easily contained within a top 3-5 list off

Best international performance
Most influential captain during a tournament
Top 5 of what I've ever seen ( coming in third behind Messi and Monaldo)
Best midfielder I've ever seen.

His world cup performance, his most infamous, was enough to seal the deal for me, I was gob smacked after it, and anytime I watch a youtube clip, very often get chills.

Something my Da always talks about with Maradona, and why he rates him higher then Messi. How he carried a nation and a city on his back to win things. Said the only person that came close was Zidane with France, which is enough for me

Also Ive deleted that post above, and my apologies to pickarooney, the conversation/debate has been mature so far and its piss poor to rip on opinions. My apologies.

Corholio

Bodhisopha wrote: »

Just kicking the facts. Not sure exactly what was said, but some are talking as if he is the ultimate big game player, but having lost more than he has won, plus a meltdown in another, it wouldn't appear so.

Winning or losing a final doesn't mean you didn't play great/poor in it. A 'big game player' can only do so much, there's 10 other players there who have to play well too.

The Iniesta-Zidane comparison is interesting though because I consider them very different players. Same position but different ways of playing the game. Iniesta's game is grounded in short passes, Zidane was a bit more stylish and tried things that have a tendency not always to come off, therein lies the inconsistency argument IMO. I think the argument about Zidane going missing in games is bit unfair actually, because Iniesta doesn't always effect games in any great way, but because he's seen to have had more of the ball, such is the way Barcelona play, it doesn't seem like he was out of the game.

pickarooney

I don't agree at all that Zidane carried France in '98. There were any number of leaders in that squad and they formed a very tight unit. I mean, he once again got himself sent off for a childish stamp and missed out games in the World Cup. His final performance looks good but it was a shell-shocked Brazilian team they were up against.

If your Da meant '06 then sure, he carried them for a couple of matches but of course let his side down when they needed him most.

Zidane is probably the best player that ever lived if you judge everyone solely on YouTube compilations.

His world cup performance, his most infamous, was enough to seal the deal for me, I was gob smacked after it, and anytime I watch a youtube clip, very often get chills.

I'm assuming you don't actually mean infamous here (the head-butt). Which match do you mean?

tdv123

darkman2 wrote: »

Think these sum it up best from Euro 2012 (first one is almost iconic)








Best midfielder of all time?

In terms of getting out of tight spaces with lots of players around him like that he'd probably be the best along with Zidane & Riquelme.

But overall best? That's a bit of a stretch.

bullvine

Why is it such a big deal too describe Zidane as overated, I know plenty of people who think he was. Personally, its not like someone calling Messi or Fat Ronaldo overated!

Iniesta is arguably the greatest European player since Cruyff but similar to Paul Scholes hes over looked because hes not fashionable.

TheDoc

pickarooney wrote: »

I don't agree at all that Zidane carried France in '98. There were any number of leaders in that squad and they formed a very tight unit. I mean, he once again got himself sent off for a childish stamp and missed out games in the World Cup. His final performance looks good but it was a shell-shocked Brazilian team they were up against.

If your Da meant '06 then sure, he carried them for a couple of matches but of course let his side down when they needed him most.

Zidane is probably the best player that ever lived if you judge everyone solely on YouTube compilations.



I'm assuming you don't actually mean infamous here (the head-butt). Which match do you mean?

Yes, meant famous, run of '06.

At 34 years of age to orchestrate a game against a no slouch Brazillian side was a pretty impressive feat, as he was throughout the tournament till the ultimate final and finale on his career.

Being world player of the year three times should be enough, outside of the WC,Euros, CL ,La Liga, Seria A and other countless stuff he has won.

In maybe time gone by, we can look back and maybe players at present and coming might surpass him, but as the theme of this thread has been, Zidane > Iniesta for me. Might change when he retires and I can truely reflect on his achievements and contributions, but for now, Zidane still the best CM I've seen.

bullvine

Personally Zidanes International Career overshadows his Club Career, I couldnt believe he was voted best Champions League player of the last 20 years.

I wouldnt even have him in the Top Ten of Champions League players.