Terry Court Case * Mod Note #51 *

Predalien

Separately, I'd be amazed if if the FA don't act even if he's found not guilty, the test they used in the Suarez case was on the balance of probability, and a case using the same standard has to be made against Terry.

JaMarcus Hustle

Whatever happens, we can take solace from the fact that the word knobhead is finally getting the recognition and exposure it deserves. One of the best insults out there, it's a crime it's not used more often.

kryogen

Predalien wrote: »

Separately, I'd be amazed if if the FA don't act even if he's found not guilty, the test they used in the Suarez case was on the balance of probability, and a case using the same standard has to be made against Terry.

They have the easiest get out story in the world for not acting if he gets found not guilty sure

greendom

kryogen wrote: »

It won't really make much difference to him though, he is already widely despised by the general public if not his fellow professionals, and going by what we know there he is not the most popular guy in the sport.

If he has any interest in doing media work or going into management/coaching it won't be much of a problem, Ron Atkinson is ok these days isn't he? Glenn Hoddle? Aragones never had a problem really

Atkinson's career was badly harmed by his outburst and it took Hoddle a long time to get back on track. Spain's a bit different when it comes to things like that. Still have a fair way to go I think

K-9

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Why should they need a criminal conviction? They didn't in the case of Suarez, right?

They should be ready to open their own enquiry by their own rules immediately following conclusion of the trial and irrespective of the results, but they won't.

Don't see they'd need a new investigation as the burden of proof is stronger than FA cases.

I'd assume they could bring a "bringing the game into disrepute" charge or something like that.

kryogen

greendom wrote: »

Atkinson's career was badly harmed by his outburst and it took Hoddle a long time to get back on track. Spain's a bit different when it comes to things like that. Still have a fair way to go I think

That was my point, although they had negative press etc initially, it does die down and people just move on/forgive or forget

CSF

kryogen wrote: »

That was my point, although they had negative press etc initially, it does die down and people just move on/forgive or forget

What are Atkinson and Hoddle doing now though?

kryogen

CSF wrote: »

What are Atkinson and Hoddle doing now though?

You can find Hoddle doing analysis while also running his academy, and being linked with a return to management frequently, Atkinson is semi retired tbh but is still doing punditry work and has been DOF at a club and some other tv stuff.

mirwillbeback

I have to laugh at the mock outrage towards racist remarks.

Many of my friends who are outraged at the JT remarks are the very same who love a joke about a black man, a Jew, a muslim, whatever.

I personally think this media portrayal of racism as the ultimate crime is bizarre. Yes it's wrong, and hurtful, but then so it calling someone fat, ugly, gay etc.

If Terry had called Ferdinand a " gay b@stard " for example, I guarantee the media wouldn't have flinched.

Remember Graeme le Saux and Fowler - you could argue Fowler was libellous in what he said, but the mainstream media ( and the police it would seem ) deem homophobia to be ok.

For all you posters outraged on this subject, just think about it next time you laugh at a joke slagging off a racial stereotype, it makes you no better than Terry.

kryogen

What's the difference between an Irish wedding and an Irish wake?
One less drunk.

kryogen

Two more for added effect

Did you hear about the Irish water polo team?
All their horses drowned.

An Irishman went to the doctor and was asked to give a urine sample.

The Irishman asked, "What's a urine sample?"

The doctor replied, "Go piss in a bottle."

The Irishman retorted, "Go **** in yer hat"
And the fight was on.

[-0-]

TBH, Ferdinands comments towards JT are ridiculous, cringe worthy, and very immature.

He didn't even realize what JT said until his missus showed him a clip on YouTube.

This case is down right ridiculous. JT was provoked, and while that does not make it OK it is not an unprovoked racial slur. Ferdinand was the one who made it personal. "Don't Let Your Mouth Write A Check That Your Ass Can't Cash" comes to mind. Crying after this and bringing it to the courts when you were the one provoking is hilarious. It's on par with a burglar suing a house owner when they fall down their stairs and break their back.

Thanx 4 The Fish

[-0-] wrote: »

TBH, Ferdinands comments towards JT are ridiculous, cringe worthy, and very immature.

He didn't even realize what JT said until his missus showed him a clip on YouTube.

This case is down right ridiculous. JT was provoked, and while that does not make it OK it is not an unprovoked racial slur. Ferdinand was the one who made it personal. "Don't Let Your Mouth Write A Check That Your Ass Can't Cash" comes to mind. Crying after this and bringing it to the courts when you were the one provoking is hilarious. It's on par with a burglar suing a house owner when they fall down their stairs and break their back.

He has not brought this case it is the DPP and there is a lot of difference between abuse and racist abuse.

[-0-]

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote: »

He has not brought this case it is the DPP and there is a lot of difference between abuse and racist abuse.

If you abuse someone personally and they respond with racist abuse towards you, then you brought it on yourself IMO.

Neither is OK in my book.

greendom

kryogen wrote: »

That was my point, although they had negative press etc initially, it does die down and people just move on/forgive or forget

I'd argue that their careers would have had much better trajectories if those incidents hadn't happened. Ron would have stayed in his role for as long as he wanted and Hoddle would have been a Premiership manager - he wouldn't have had to escape to the South of France and develop an academy.

Pro. F

mirwillbeback wrote: »

I have to laugh at the mock outrage towards racist remarks.

Many of my friends who are outraged at the JT remarks are the very same who love a joke about a black man, a Jew, a muslim, whatever.

I personally think this media portrayal of racism as the ultimate crime is bizarre. Yes it's wrong, and hurtful, but then so it calling someone fat, ugly, gay etc.

If Terry had called Ferdinand a " gay b@stard " for example, I guarantee the media wouldn't have flinched.

Remember Graeme le Saux and Fowler - you could argue Fowler was libellous in what he said, but the mainstream media ( and the police it would seem ) deem homophobia to be ok.

For all you posters outraged on this subject, just think about it next time you laugh at a joke slagging off a racial stereotype, it makes you no better than Terry.

I think the problem is who you are friends with.

[-0-] wrote: »

TBH, Ferdinands comments towards JT are ridiculous, cringe worthy, and very immature.

He didn't even realize what JT said until his missus showed him a clip on YouTube.

This case is down right ridiculous. JT was provoked, and while that does not make it OK it is not an unprovoked racial slur. Ferdinand was the one who made it personal. "Don't Let Your Mouth Write A Check That Your Ass Can't Cash" comes to mind. Crying after this and bringing it to the courts when you were the one provoking is hilarious. It's on par with a burglar suing a house owner when they fall down their stairs and break their back.

That's just silly. It's nothing like that. You have just failed at an analogy.

[-0-]

Pro. F wrote: »

That's just silly. It's nothing like that. You have just failed at an analogy.

Fantastic insight. Your explanation is outstanding.

Snakeblood

[-0-] wrote: »

Fantastic insight. Your explanation is outstanding.

How about this: It's a criminal offence to break into someone's house. It is not a criminal offence to intimate that someone is a **** who is widely thought to have banged his teammates missus. Therefore, your equating the two issues is wrong. It's not on a par at all.

Pro. F

[-0-] wrote: »

Fantastic insight. Your explanation is outstanding.

I didn't think you would need an explanation. But hey-ho.

Your analogy didn't involve the home owner who was being burgled at all. The burglar just fell down the stairs and it was nothing to do with the home owner. But JT (who would have been the home owner in your analogy) did actually do something in the situation, he racially abused Ferdinand. So a more accurate analogy would have been something like: a burglar breaking into a house and the home owner shooting him dead. But it's not really a good analogy because sometimes shooting somebody to protect your home can be justified, for example if your life is threatened. Using racist abuse can't be justified in the same manner, it just shows that you are okay with using racist abuse.

mirwillbeback

Pro. F wrote: »

I think the problem is who you are friends with.

And who are your circle of friends, the 12 apostles

RayCon

So anybody else think nothing will happen to Terry ?

G.K.

Racism is never justified. Racism is never excusable.

Pro. F

mirwillbeback wrote: »

And who are your circle of friends, the 12 apostles

No my friends are no saints, they just don't like racist jokes. Fúcking hell. The fact you find making jokes about black people, Jews and Muslims so acceptable is disturbing.

kryogen

greendom wrote: »

I'd argue that their careers would have had much better trajectories if those incidents hadn't happened. Ron would have stayed in his role for as long as he wanted and Hoddle would have been a Premiership manager - he wouldn't have had to escape to the South of France and develop an academy.

The academy is in Spain, whether they would have had better careers, (Hoddle is still on tv regularly), or not doesn't really matter to the point I was making that things like this do not actually bury you in the football world.

kryogen

[-0-] wrote: »

If you abuse someone personally and they respond with racist abuse towards you, then you brought it on yourself IMO.

Neither is OK in my book.

There is quite the difference in some saying, for example

"yeah, your a lovely guy, you ****ed your mates missus"

and someone saying, "yeah? well your a black ****"

They are not nearly the same thing

eagle eye

kryogen wrote: »

There is quite the difference in some saying, for example

"yeah, your a lovely guy, you ****ed your mates missus"

and someone saying, "yeah? well your a black ****"

They are not nearly the same thing

Did you ever say anything hurtful to anybody, that you didn't actually believe, in the heat of the moment?

Did you regret it afterwards and explain that you didn't mean it or believe what you said?

I mean with the way some people are talking here you'd think that they always are relaxed and take a deep breath and think about their reply before they talk.

I've said loads of stuff, never actually racially abused anybody, but said some horrific things in the heat of the moment whilst playing sports. I've always shook hands aferwards and apologised, well apart from one time when the guy wouldn't even look at me afterwards. He lost by the way.:D

monkey9

RayCon wrote: »

So anybody else think nothing will happen to Terry ?

He'll get his fine, won't get a ban though, even though he's on tv mouthing the words "black ****". He was 'probably' just having a laugh though and 'probably' is enough for the FA.

I have to say, he was superb for England when he represented his county in the World Cup. Good to see the FA crack down on racism. They're serious about that stuff, you know.

IvySlayer

G.K. wrote: »

Racism is never justified. Racism is never excusable.

Even the Welsh? :P

And here if he's found guilty, the FA will have to act.

Underground

kryogen wrote: »

There is quite the difference in some saying, for example

"yeah, your a lovely guy, you ****ed your mates missus"

and someone saying, "yeah? well your a black ****"

They are not nearly the same thing

Exactly.

I think it mostly comes down to choice IMO.

Anton Ferdinand was born black, and slating someone over something they had absolutely no power over i.e skin colour, mental disbability is just flat out wrong.

John Terry made a conscious decision to shag his mate's missus, and therefore should deal with the consequences imo. If he gets a bit of verbal abuse for that then it's his own fault.

eagle eye

Underground wrote: »

Exactly.

I think it mostly comes down to choice IMO.

Anton Ferdinand was born black, and slating someone over something they had absolutely no power over i.e skin colour, mental disbability is just flat out wrong.

John Terry made a conscious decision to shag his mate's missus, and therefore should deal with the consequences imo. If he gets a bit of verbal abuse for that then it's his own fault.

Just like I asked Kryogen I'll ask you the same thing.

Did you ever say anything hurtful to anybody, that you didn't actually believe, in the heat of the moment?

Did you regret it afterwards and explain that you didn't mean it or believe what you said?

kryogen

eagle eye wrote: »

Just like I asked Kryogen I'll ask you the same thing.

Did you ever say anything hurtful to anybody, that you didn't actually believe, in the heat of the moment?

Did you regret it afterwards and explain that you didn't mean it or believe what you said?

Didn't see you ask me so let me answer, hell yes I have said plenty in the heat of the moment and felt bad about it and where appropriate I have apologised, who hasn't?

I have not however been having an argument with a colleague, used racist language towards him, then denied saying it all, and when that didnt work, said ok, I said it, but not int he way he thinks I did.

What is the point of your question? Are you trying to say people are acting holier than thou is it? I am far from holier than thou but I do take issue with certain things, you choose to get a stupid hair cut or wear some form of ridiculous clothing, or bang your mates or worse, your sisters wife and I will rip you a new one with banter or abuse

If you are born a different colour to me, I will not use that against you in a slanging match. Thats just me of course, there are plenty in the world who share your views on racism.

Underground

eagle eye wrote: »

Just like I asked Kryogen I'll ask you the same thing.

Did you ever say anything hurtful to anybody, that you didn't actually believe, in the heat of the moment?

Did you regret it afterwards and explain that you didn't mean it or believe what you said?

Yes,of course I have, never to the level of racial abuse though.

eagle eye

Sorry, to make it clearer, I was more asking about during a football match or any team activity where you are using lots of energy. I think its(well for me anyways) a whole different thing on a pitch where you are watching the game, maybe slightly out of breath and listening to somebody mouth off at you at the same time.

K-9

eagle eye wrote: »

Just like I asked Kryogen I'll ask you the same thing.

Did you ever say anything hurtful to anybody, that you didn't actually believe, in the heat of the moment?

Did you regret it afterwards and explain that you didn't mean it or believe what you said?

I'm sure we all have. The point is we have to learn from mistakes and yes, the world does move on and standards change. There was a time calling the Irish a Mick or Paddy as meaning they were thick or dumb was acceptable, throwing a banana at a black player was seen as banter.

You can still have banter.

eagle eye

kryogen wrote: »

If you are born a different colour to me, I will not use that against you in a slanging match. Thats just me of course, there are plenty in the world who share your views on racism.

Do you know my view? I still say its wrong to say something like that. I just think its understandable and not a serious thing in a situation like that as long as the person apologises for it. Of course intent is a big part of it as well. If the person knew exactly what he was saying at the time and meant every word then thats a serious thing but if it was just the first thing that came into his head as a response to an insult then I don't think its a serious issue.

If somebody said that in an office during a confrontation then I don't think its forgiveable.

kryogen

Can I ask you a question, why do you think that would be the first thing that would come into someones head to respond to a jibe?

eagle eye

K-9 wrote: »

I'm sure we all have. The point is we have to learn from mistakes and yes, the world does move on and standards change. There was a time calling the Irish a Mick or Paddy as meaning they were thick or dumb was acceptable, throwing a banana at a black player was seen as banter.

You can still have banter.

I think the way the world is 'evolving' is terrible in this instance.

The old sticks and stones saying comes to mind. I think evolved in this instance would be regarding a person that uses racial terms as beneath you and just be completely dismissive of them and their thoughts.

eagle eye

kryogen wrote: »

Can I ask you a question, why do you think that would be the first thing that would come into someones head to respond to a jibe?

I'm sure it would be with some people.

Edit: Lol clearly the phrasing of the question changed between when I read it and when I pressed quote.

kryogen

eagle eye wrote: »

I'm sure it would be with some people.

I am certain it would be to some people, our emotions betray our true personalities. If you need me to clarify this I will get back to it tomorrow, off to leaba

And no, I didnt touch the post, a mod can clear that up for you if you think I may have ninja edited it.

The post is how it was originally posted

eagle eye

kryogen wrote: »

I am certain it would be to some people, our emotions betray our true personalities. If you need me to clarify this I will get back to it tomorrow, off to leaba

I don't think thats true at all while partaking in sports. Most of the stupidest things I've ever heard were on a football field during a slanging match. In a lot of those cases I don't think it bore any resemblance to the true personality or intelligence of the individuals involved.

osarusan

In a statement made to police last November, Mr Terry said he was offended by the accusation that he had used racist language.

"Whilst footballers are used to industrial language, using racist terms is completely unacceptable whatever [the] situation," the statement read.

"I was completely taken aback by this remark as I have never been accused of something like that and I did not take his remark lightly at all, and took strong offence to his suggestion."

If it is true that Terry now admits saying what he is alleged to have said, but argues that the context is a mitigating factor, he's fighting a losing battle going by the comments quoted above.

However, if he is saying that the only time he said what he is alleged to have said is to deny having originally said it (!?), as in, "I never called you a black**********", that really would be a mitigating factor.

But, seeing as Ferdinand testified that he wasn't aware of what Terry allegedly said until it was pointed out to him after the game, why would Terry have been saying "I never called you a black **********" at all.

Apologies if I've taken this up wrong - I'm still not totally clear on what Terry's defence is and what he has admitted to saying.

the realpigiron

I said at the time on another thread that I found Roy Hodgson's decision to leave Rio Ferdinand out of the Euro 2012 tournament while keeping in Terry as despicable. I think that decision reflected poorly on Hodgson as a football man and as a manager, and will ultimately have repercussions for him in his job as manager of England.

Terry is scum, I find it amazing that the powers that be in English football bent over backways to facilitate his presence at Euro 2012. First by ensuring this case didn't occur until after the tournament and then by obviously instructing or acquiescing with Hodgson's craven decision to favour Terry at the expense of Rio Ferdinand.

I don't get the decision making involved at all, because in pure football terms Rio Ferdinand is every bit as good as Terry, the correct moral decision was obvious. The whole debacle makes a mockery of the English FA and their rhetoric about stamping out racism.

event

[-0-] wrote: »

If you abuse someone personally and they respond with racist abuse towards you, then you brought it on yourself IMO.

Neither is OK in my book.

are you serious?

you sound like someone who says that girls who get raped "deserve it" if they wear slutty clothes

Fight_Night

event wrote: »

are you serious?

you sound like someone who says that girls who get raped "deserve it" if they wear slutty clothes

Getting raped and getting called 'a black bastard' or whatever are very different things. Getting raped leaves far far deeper psychological scars that are much harder to heal.

With that said I honestly don't think what Terry said was THAT bad. Still don't like him as a person but I doubt he is a full blown racist, what's more likely is he was angry and this came into his head, heat of the moment stuff. That's all there is in it in my opinion. If he was called a 'white kunt' by a black player would there be repercussions? Probably not. I know that's not really the point here but there is a double standard.

Also the whole 'that's disgusting' remark on this forum whenever there is the slightest hint of racism irks me, only serves to belittle the serious cases of racism where it actually is disgusting, stuff like people getting beaten up and killed. I'm sorry but getting called a mean name is not the same thing. Again going off on a bit of a tangent here but agh it's 05:32, give me a break.

TerryTibbs!

the realpigiron wrote: »

I said at the time on another thread that I found Roy Hodgson's decision to leave Rio Ferdinand out of the Euro 2012 tournament while keeping in Terry as despicable. I think that decision reflected poorly on Hodgson as a football man and as a manager, and will ultimately have repercussions for him in his job as manager of England.

Terry is scum, I find it amazing that the powers that be in English football bent over backways to facilitate his presence at Euro 2012. First by ensuring this case didn't occur until after the tournament and then by obviously instructing or acquiescing with Hodgson's craven decision to favour Terry at the expense of Rio Ferdinand.

I don't get the decision making involved at all, because in pure football terms Rio Ferdinand is every bit as good as Terry, the correct moral decision was obvious. The whole debacle makes a mockery of the English FA and their rhetoric about stamping out racism.

Terry isn't as likely to be injured and is the better player. Easy decision to bring him ahead of Ferdinand.

Ashbourne hoop

TerryTibbs! wrote: »

Terry isn't as likely to be injured and is the better player. Easy decision to bring him ahead of Ferdinand.

Whatever about Terry not as likely to get injured, Ferdinand did have a strong finish to the season though, Terry is not and never was as good a defender as Ferdinand. He was left out for non-football reasons, clear as bloody day when you consider Martin Kelly of liverpool was called up as a replacement.

kryogen

JT has arrived

GavRedKing

Ashbourne hoop wrote: »

Whatever about Terry not as likely to get injured, Ferdinand did have a strong finish to the season though, Terry is not and never was as good a defender as Ferdinand. He was left out for non-football reasons, clear as bloody day when you consider Martin Kelly of liverpool was called up as a replacement.

Debtable, I'd say Terry is the better defender while Ferdinand is a better footballer.

I know if it came down to Terry or Ferdiannd I'd pick Terry, where as given the choice of Vidic or Terry, whom I think are more comparable, I'd lean towards to Vidic.

the realpigiron

TerryTibbs! wrote: »

Terry isn't as likely to be injured and is the better player. Easy decision to bring him ahead of Ferdinand.

It's not like taking the correct moral decision in leaving Terry out and playing Ferdinand - who was fit to play - would have made a massive difference one way or the other to England's chances on the field. I would argue that the FA in England have created a problem for themselves down the line, by not facing up to this issue by doing the right thing and leaving Terry out.

The whole thing is a farce and the England football team are merely also-rans anyway. The least the FA could do is attempt to maintain some semblance of dignity and standards off the field.

You say they took the "easy decision to bring Terry ahead of Ferdinand". I think it's more accurate to say the FA and their puppet manager Hodgson - how long will he last - took the weak decision when they chose to include Terry in the Euro 2012 team.

Beefy78

Rio Ferdinand couldn't have played four games, including an extra time, in less than two weeks.

If you're choosing between the two and you're going to play a high line and play the ball out of defence then the footballing decision would be to take Rio Ferdinand. If you're using your defenders to camp on the edge of your own box, head every cross clear and throw their body in front of every shot then the footballing decision would be to take John Terry.