Terry Court Case * Mod Note #51 *

Beefy78

the realpigiron wrote: »

You say they took the "easy decision to bring Terry ahead of Ferdinand". I think it's more accurate to say the FA and their puppet manager Hodgson - how long will he last - took the weak decision when they chose to include Terry in the Euro 2012 team.

Absolute nonsense. The easy decision was clearly to take Ferdinand. The correct decision from a football perspective was to take John Terry.

LuckyLloyd

Ashbourne hoop wrote: »

Whatever about Terry not as likely to get injured, Ferdinand did have a strong finish to the season though, Terry is not and never was as good a defender as Ferdinand. He was left out for non-football reasons, clear as bloody day when you consider Martin Kelly of liverpool was called up as a replacement.

His selection was fully justified by his performances during the tournament. Utd fans / JT haters can continue to not recognise that if they wish.

the realpigiron

Beefy78 wrote: »

Absolute nonsense. The easy decision was clearly to take Ferdinand. The correct decision from a football perspective was to take John Terry.

I disagree. It was the wrong decision from every perspective including the football one. In pure football terms, would Terry have been missed that much if he was left out? He's not all that good.

It was also a weak decision because Terry appears to have some clout with some other players, and it looks like the FA were afraid to do the right thing and stand by the decision to leave Terry out. It was a weak decision that may cause problems for England in the future, because as Scholes and Neville have said, EPL players aren't that committed to playing for England anyway - more interested in their club careers.

cgpg5

gavredking wrote: »

Debtable, I'd say Terry is the better defender while Ferdinand is a better footballer.

I know if it came down to Terry or Ferdiannd I'd pick Terry, where as given the choice of Vidic or Terry, whom I think are more comparable, I'd lean towards to Vidic.

Agreed completely. Rio has the better footballing brain but in terms of defending and putting body on the line, I'd pick JT definitely. They're quite different players tbh.

Think it showed any way that playing JT was the right decision had a great tournament imo. As a neutral I have zero problem with the guy think he is a great leader and servant for club and country. Why this has gone to court is beyond me tbh. However I feel he has to be punished as racism in any form is unacceptable

kryogen

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

His selection was fully justified by his performances during the tournament. Utd fans / JT haters can continue to not recognise that if they wish.

I am still unsure, it is not the crime of the century for him to have picked Terry over Rio, Terrys overall performance got him out of jail, but for every last ditch tackle and block he made he was caught out of position or made to look foolish by an attacker at least an equal amount of times.

Fact is he came through when it mattered though and that makes his selection justifiable. JT is one of lifes winners for sure

cgpg5

the realpigiron wrote: »

I disagree. It was the wrong decision from every perspective including the football one. In pure football terms, would Terry have been missed that much if he was left out? He's not all that good.

It was also a weak decision because Terry appears to have some clout with some other players, and it looks like the FA were afraid to do the right thing and stand by the decision to leave Terry out. It was a weak decision that may cause problems for England in the future, because as Scholes and Neville have said, EPL players aren't that committed to playing for England anyway - more interested in their club careers.

1. He had a great tournament was one of the better players

2. Why is this such a bad thing? You don't have to get on with all your team mates completely. As long as you do the job effectively who should care?

3. A sweeping generalisation. Many I'm sure would do anything for their country's cause. I think JT himself has been a magnificent servant for his country over the years

the realpigiron

cgpg5 wrote: »

1. He had a great tournament was one of the better players

He put in some solid performances at center half in a decidedly mediocre boring English overall performance - big deal. Would his absence have made that much difference? Maybe they wouldn't have managed to bore everyone on their way to a penalty shoot out v the Italians? Big deal, forgettable performance from England. It would've been far better overall from every perspective to do the right thing and leave Terry out I reckon.

cgpg5 wrote: »

2. Why is this such a bad thing? You don't have to get on with all your team mates completely. As long as you do the job effectively who should care?

I don't disagree with what you say here, but in this matter they made a decision to choose to include one player over another both of whom on football terms and when fit - which both were - would normally be in the squad.

cgpg5 wrote: »

3. A sweeping generalisation. Many I'm sure would do anything for their country's cause. I think JT himself has been a magnificent servant for his country over the years

I'm just repeating what Scholes and G Neville said about the England set up. The weakness of the FA in this matter won't help in regard to some overpaid EPL players feeling committed to playing for England.

At the end of the day the FA should've done the right thing here - it is clearly the case they did not.

maximoose

The Euros are over lads, wtf does it matter?

LuckyLloyd

kryogen wrote: »

JT is one of lifes winners for sure

I know, as hard as it is to take! A phenomenal athlete who has enjoyed an exceptional career.

the realpigiron wrote: »

At the end of the day the FA should've done the right thing here - it is clearly the case they did not.

Presumption of innocence is a cornerstone of a free democratic society. You really wouldn't want to live some place where it wasn't the case. John Terry had no criminal conviction against his name, seems to be widely respected by the other players as far as his footballing ability is concerned, and Rio Ferdinand had created a "him or me" decision. The two would have been unable to coexist in the same squad and, as such, the right decision was to take the player who would help the team's footballing chances the most.

kryogen

Did Rio create a him or me thing? I thought he had said he was willing to have a footballing relationship with Terry for the good of the team/country?

I understand how difficult this probably would have been and the safer option was to take just one. Given Terrys performances its hard to criticise Roy for his choice.

LuckyLloyd

kryogen wrote: »

Did Rio create a him or me thing? I thought he had said he was willing to have a footballing relationship with Terry for the good of the team/country?

I understand how difficult this probably would have been and the safer option was to take just one. Given Terrys performances its hard to criticise Roy for his choice.

You'll disagree of course, but I think his reaction on twitter to non selection probably speaks for his maturity and ability to be professional in such a difficult situation.

TheTownie

Gotta love Frankie Boyle! :pac:

Frankie Boyle ‏@frankieboyle
Surely if John Terry was being sarcastic he'd have called him a white cúnt?

the realpigiron

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Presumption of innocence is a cornerstone of a free democratic society. You really wouldn't want to live some place where it wasn't the case.

I'm well aware of the value of living in a free democracy, still there has been miscarriages of justice in England before, but that's entirely off topic.

Anyway back on topic, wasn't it the case that the court case was deliberately scheduled on a date after the Euro 2012 tournament? The FA and the powers that be ducked the issue right from the beginning I reckon.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

John Terry had no criminal conviction against his name, seems to be widely respected by the other players as far as his footballing ability is concerned, and Rio Ferdinand had created a "him or me" decision. The two would have been unable to coexist in the same squad and, as such, the right decision was to take the player who would help the team's footballing chances the most.

I disagree. The FA did not do the right thing here, and I reckon there may be ramifications for them in football terms because of it down the line.

Renn

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

You'll disagree of course, but I think his reaction on twitter to non selection probably speaks for his maturity and ability to be professional in such a difficult situation.

You mean this photoshopped image?

aidan24326

In all the criticism of Terry why is Rio Ferdinand not being criticised for his childish behaviour? John Terry didn't do anything to him personally, the issue is with Anton, so why couldn't they have played in the same team?

The Ferdinands are not even black ffs!!! I don't condone racism, but what Terry allegedly said is the type of stupid thing that can easily come out in the heat of the moment. It doesn't make him an outright racist.

This is like a guy being accused of rape because he pinched a girl on the bum, and does a disservice to the real issue of the very serious incidents of racial hatred which happen all the time and are much more important than this non-event.

Dave0301

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

You'll disagree of course, but I think his reaction on twitter to non selection probably speaks for his maturity and ability to be professional in such a difficult situation.

To be fair I think Rio's reaction was very understandable given that he had a great season and the reasons that Hodgson gave were sketchy at best.

If a professional footballer who has prided himself on representing his country wasn't dismayed or upset at being left out of a major tournament, that i would find more baffling than Ferdinand's reaction.

LuckyLloyd

Renn wrote: »

You mean this photoshopped image?

No, I mean his public expression of dissatisfaction with non selection.

Renn

aidan24326 wrote: »

In all the criticism of Terry why is Rio Ferdinand not being criticised for his childish behaviour? John Terry didn't do anything to him personally, the issue is with Anton, so why couldn't they have played in the same team?

The Ferdinands are not even black ffs!!! I don't condone racism, but what Terry allegedly said is the type of stupid thing that can easily come out in the heat of the moment. It doesn't make him an outright racist.

This is like a guy being accused of rape because he pinched a girl on the bum, and does a disservice to the real issue of the very serious incidents of racial hatred which happen all the time and are much more important than this non-event.

Yeah I find it baffling that Rio hasn't been brought to court yet over his childish behaviour - despicable carry on.

LuckyLloyd

the realpigiron wrote: »

Anyway back on topic, wasn't it the case that the court case was deliberately scheduled on a date after the Euro 2012 tournament? The FA and the powers that be ducked the issue right from the beginning I reckon.

The FA have zero influence over scheduling of criminal cases at the Magistrate level imo.

kryogen

aidan24326 wrote: »

In all the criticism of Terry why is Rio Ferdinand not being criticised for his childish behaviour? John Terry didn't do anything to him personally, the issue is with Anton, so why couldn't they have played in the same team?

The Ferdinands are not even black ffs!!! I don't condone racism, but what Terry allegedly said is the type of stupid thing that can easily come out in the heat of the moment. It doesn't make him an outright racist.

This is like a guy being accused of rape because he pinched a girl on the bum, and does a disservice to the real issue of the very serious incidents of racial hatred which happen all the time and are much more important than this non-event.

Surely you can understand the potential difficulties in having two guys play next to each other in defence, as the most important partnership on the field arguably, if one of the guys is involved in a racial dispute with the others brother?

I can't agree with your last analagy either, its not like a guy being accused of rape cause he pinched a girls bum.

I agree that a racist comment does not automatically make you racist, but you must admit you can see potential difficulties arising in having them both in the team?

LuckyLloyd

Dave0301 wrote: »

To be fair I think Rio's reaction was very understandable given that he had a great season and the reasons that Hodgson gave were sketchy at best.

If a professional footballer who has prided himself on representing his country wasn't dismayed or upset at being left out of a major tournament, that i would find more baffling than Ferdinand's reaction.

Understandable? Yes. Ideal behaviour from a senior professional? No.

Felexicon

aidan24326 wrote: »

In all the criticism of Terry why is Rio Ferdinand not being criticised for his childish behaviour? John Terry didn't do anything to him personally, the issue is with Anton, so why couldn't they have played in the same team?

The Ferdinands are not even black ffs!!! I don't condone racism, but what Terry allegedly said is the type of stupid thing that can easily come out in the heat of the moment. It doesn't make him an outright racist.

This is like a guy being accused of rape because he pinched a girl on the bum, and does a disservice to the real issue of the very serious incidents of racial hatred which happen all the time and are much more important than this non-event.

I'm sorry but yes it does. If you don't see an issue in what he said then you condone racisim to a certain degree.

cgpg5

Felexicon wrote: »

I'm sorry but yes it does. If you don't see an issue in what he said then you condone racisim to a certain degree.

Making one comment in the heat of the moment makes him an out and out racist? Give me a break

ceegee

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

kryogen wrote: »

JT is one of lifes winners for sure

I know, as hard as it is to take! A phenomenal athlete who has enjoyed an exceptional career.

the realpigiron wrote: »

At the end of the day the FA should've done the right thing here - it is clearly the case they did not.

Presumption of innocence is a cornerstone of a free democratic society. You really wouldn't want to live some place where it wasn't the case. John Terry had no criminal conviction against his name, seems to be widely respected by the other players as far as his footballing ability is concerned, and Rio Ferdinand had created a "him or me" decision. The two would have been unable to coexist in the same squad and, as such, the right decision was to take the player who would help the team's footballing chances the most.

Why does he need a criminal conviction to be dropped? Bowyer and Woodgate were blacklisted by the FA prior to their trial, Alan Smith was dropped when he was being charged with throwing a bottle into the crowd, as was Ferdinand when the
missed drugs test was still being contested.

If it was a 21 year old fringe player up in court rather than JT the FA would have hung them out to dry

LuckyLloyd

Felexicon wrote: »

I'm sorry but yes it does. If you don't see an issue in what he said then you condone racisim to a certain degree.

Ha!

LuckyLloyd

ceegee wrote: »

Why does he need a criminal conviction to be dropped? Bowyer and Woodgate were blacklisted by the FA prior to their trial, Alan Smith was dropped when he was being charged with throwing a bottle into the crowd, as was Ferdinand when the
missed drugs test was still being contested.

If it was a 21 year old fringe player up in court rather than JT the FA would have hung them out to dry

By FA Directives?

aidan24326

Renn wrote: »

Yeah I find it baffling that Rio hasn't been brought to court yet over his childish behaviour - despicable carry on.

No need to be sarcastic. I wasn't suggesting Rio should be in court, just that I don't entirely see why they couldn't have played together. Terry said something he shouldn't have fair enough, but it's not like he beat Anton up or abused his kids. The whole thing's been blown out of proportion.

kryogen wrote: »

Surely you can understand the potential difficulties in having two guys play next to each other in defence, as the most important partnership on the field arguably, if one of the guys is involved in a racial dispute with the others brother?

I can see how it would be a problem if there was a real issue of racial hatred, but there isn't.

I can't agree with your last analagy either, its not like a guy being accused of rape cause he pinched a girls bum.

It is though. Terry is being painted as some kind of racist monster on account of one stupid, throwaway remark, which any of us could have said in the heat of battle. It's political correctness gone mad, in that you can't say anytyhing nowadays but you're racist/sexist or whatever ist you can think of. Look at the treatment of black players in Russia for example, that's racism.

I agree that a racist comment does not automatically make you racist, but you must admit you can see potential difficulties arising in having them both in the team?

I can of course but only within the context of this being blown out of proportion, which it has been.

Ashbourne hoop

aidan24326 wrote: »

In all the criticism of Terry why is Rio Ferdinand not being criticised for his childish behaviour? John Terry didn't do anything to him personally, the issue is with Anton, so why couldn't they have played in the same team?

The Ferdinands are not even black ffs!!! I don't condone racism, but what Terry allegedly said is the type of stupid thing that can easily come out in the heat of the moment. It doesn't make him an outright racist.

This is like a guy being accused of rape because he pinched a girl on the bum, and does a disservice to the real issue of the very serious incidents of racial hatred which happen all the time and are much more important than this non-event.

Don't know whats worse, your post or the fact it got 2 thanks ???

ceegee

aidan24326 wrote: »

In all the criticism of Terry why is Rio Ferdinand not being criticised for his childish behaviour? John Terry didn't do anything to him personally, the issue is with Anton, so why couldn't they have played in the same team?

The Ferdinands are not even black ffs!!! I don't condone racism, but what Terry allegedly said is the type of stupid thing that can easily come out in the heat of the moment. It doesn't make him an outright racist.

This is like a guy being accused of rape because he pinched a girl on the bum, and does a disservice to the real issue of the very serious incidents of racial hatred which happen all the time and are much more important than this non-event.

If a work colleague racially abused a member of my family I would take it personally. Id also be pretty pissed off if I got sacked to avoid any tension in the workplace caused by him racially abusing my family.

The "theyre not really black" argument is at best retarded and at worst a disgusting attempt to justify racist abuse. Its the equivalent of arguing thats its fine to call a bisexual guy a f***ing fa***t cos hes not fully gay. Should there be some sort of f***ing colour chart to compare against before we decide if calling someone a black c**t is racist or not ???

aidan24326

Ashbourne hoop wrote: »

Don't know whats worse, your post or the fact it got 2 thanks ???

What exactly was wrong with it?

Renn

This has reminded me of the ridiculous fine and ban Materazzi received after the WC06 incident - he got a €4,000 fine and a two-match ban. And that was for saying "I prefer the whore that is your sister."

aidan24326

ceegee wrote: »

If a work colleague racially abused a member of my family I would take it personally. Id also be pretty pissed off if I got sacked to avoid any tension in the workplace caused by him racially abusing my family.

The "theyre not really black" argument is at best retarded and at worst a disgusting attempt to justify racist abuse. Its the equivalent of arguing thats its fine to call a bisexual guy a f***ing fa***t cos hes not fully gay. Should there be some sort of f***ing colour chart to compare against before we decide if calling someone a black c**t is racist or not ???

My saying they're not actually black is scarcely relevant to the discussion I'll agree, though there's a wider argument there that's outside the scope of this thread.

But it's relevant in that Terry can hardly have meant his comment in a deliberately racist way since he said to a guy who isn't much blacker than himself in all honesty. Had Anton Ferdinand called John Terry a white c*nt would this thread even exist? Not a hope. Now you might think that's irrelevant but it's not. Think about it.

ceegee

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

ceegee wrote: »

Why does he need a criminal conviction to be dropped? Bowyer and Woodgate were blacklisted by the FA prior to their trial, Alan Smith was dropped when he was being charged with throwing a bottle into the crowd, as was Ferdinand when the
missed drugs test was still being contested.

If it was a 21 year old fringe player up in court rather than JT the FA would have hung them out to dry

By FA Directives?

Yes, the FA pulled them out of squads that had already been announced, it wasnt a management decision. No reason the FA couldnt do the same for JT

Felexicon

cgpg5 wrote: »

Making one comment in the heat of the moment makes him an out and out racist? Give me a break

It does in my opinion, if not in yours that's fine.
I know for a fact that no matter how heated the situation I would never racially abuse someone.

Ashbourne hoop

aidan24326 wrote: »

In all the criticism of Terry why is Rio Ferdinand not being criticised for his childish behaviour?
Standing up for your brother is childish ??

The Ferdinands are not even black ffs!!! I don't condone racism,

Can't even begin to tell you how stupid that comment sounds to be honest.

but what Terry allegedly said is the type of stupid thing that can easily come out in the heat of the moment. It doesn't make him an outright racist.
It doesn't make him an outright racist but it would take a different type of classless **** to bring a person's colour into an argument, even in "the heat of the moment", which is a crap excuse anyway.

This is like a guy being accused of rape because he pinched a girl on the bum

Not even close. Would unlikely to be accused of rape, likely to get a slap across the snot, deservedly so too.

aidan24326 wrote: »

What exactly was wrong with it?[/QUOTE]

That'll do for me anyway.

ceegee

aidan24326 wrote: »

ceegee wrote: »

If a work colleague racially abused a member of my family I would take it personally. Id also be pretty pissed off if I got sacked to avoid any tension in the workplace caused by him racially abusing my family.

The "theyre not really black" argument is at best retarded and at worst a disgusting attempt to justify racist abuse. Its the equivalent of arguing thats its fine to call a bisexual guy a f***ing fa***t cos hes not fully gay. Should there be some sort of f***ing colour chart to compare against before we decide if calling someone a black c**t is racist or not ???

My saying they're not actually black is scarcely relevant to the discussion I'll agree, though there's a wider argument there that's outside the scope of this thread.

But it's relevant in that Terry can hardly have meant his comment in a deliberately racist way since he said to a guy who isn't much blacker than himself in all honesty. Had Anton Ferdinand called John Terry a white c*nt would this thread even exist? Not a hope. Now you might think that's irrelevant but it's not. Think about it.

Are you actually trying to suggest that calling someone of mixed race a black c**t isnt racially abusive?? Because unless Terry goes around using that term when arguing with white people Im pretty damn sure his choice of phrase was motivated by Antons skin colour

LuckyLloyd

ceegee wrote: »

Yes, the FA pulled them out of squads that had already been announced, it wasnt a management decision. No reason the FA couldnt do the same for JT

Interesting. Anyone have any links on this?

Aidric

The subject matter is of course serious but I'm laughing a lot following this live on twitter over the last few days.

I'm imaging the deciphering of the on the pitch banter in the staid surroundings of a magistrates court.

aidan24326

The point you're all missing is that the fact he said 'black' **** is clouding the whole thing. Wrong to bring a person's colour into of course and Terry deserves whatver punishment he gets (once he's not scapegoated). But if someone called me an Irish c*nt? a thick Paddy? An arse-bandit? (were I gay) would I be taking them to court? Surely not. I wouldn't like it but I'd have little access to court protection.

And like I said in a previous post this cheapens the real issue of racial hatred by making a big deal out of nothing. Real racial hatred does exist and is far removed from this.

citytillidie

Terry is going down the Suarez route of i donate to chairty in Africa and that proves i am not a racist

Beefy78

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Interesting. Anyone have any links on this?

The FA ruled that neither player could play for England until the case had been heard.

GBH & Affray is a far more serious charge than the one that Terry is in Court over (not saying that Racism isn't serious but that the actual charge is a light one) though so it's comparing apples and oranges really.

Kess73

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Interesting. Anyone have any links on this?

Bowyer being banned from playing for England gets mentioned in this.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2001/dec/16/football.race

kryogen

aidan24326 wrote: »

The point you're all missing is that the fact he said 'black' **** is clouding the whole thing. Wrong to bring a person's colour into of course and Terry deserves whatver punishment he gets (once he's not scapegoated). But if someone called me an Irish c*nt? a thick Paddy? An arse-bandit? (were I gay) would I be taking them to court? Surely not. I wouldn't like it but I'd have little access to court protection.

And like I said in a previous post this cheapens the real issue of racial hatred by making a big deal out of nothing. Real racial hatred does exist and is far removed from this.

You may also be missing the point though? The complaint made to the police was by a member of the public, so its not really Anton taking Terry to court?

machiavellianme

TheTownie wrote: »

Gotta love Frankie Boyle! :pac:

Look up the definition of sarcasm Frankie. Sarcasm if applicable, is correct in this context. IE sarcastic tone of voice but the statement may be valid. Irony on the otherhand implies the opposite. Hence, calling him a white **** would be ironic.

Beefy78

kryogen wrote: »

You may also be missing the point though? The complaint made to the police was by a member of the public, so its not really Anton taking Terry to court?

Whilst that is true, according to twitter the Court have just been told that Ferdinand's PR guy was very active in assisting the police and told them that if the CPS didn't prosecute, Ferdinand would do it himself through a Civil case.

jonneymendoza

ceegee wrote: »

If a work colleague racially abused a member of my family I would take it personally. Id also be pretty pissed off if I got sacked to avoid any tension in the workplace caused by him racially abusing my family.

The "theyre not really black" argument is at best retarded and at worst a disgusting attempt to justify racist abuse. Its the equivalent of arguing thats its fine to call a bisexual guy a f***ing fa***t cos hes not fully gay. Should there be some sort of f***ing colour chart to compare against before we decide if calling someone a black c**t is racist or not ???

agred. shocking mate

ceegee

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

ceegee wrote: »

Yes, the FA pulled them out of squads that had already been announced, it wasnt a management decision. No reason the FA couldnt do the same for JT

Interesting. Anyone have any links on this?

Bowyer/Woodgate (incl quote from Peter Taylor saying hed pick them if allowed,so def not a coaching decision):

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/1235604.stm

Ferdinand dropped prior to being found guilty of missing test:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-198758/Ferdinand-axed-drugs-uproar.html

Smith dropped after arrest and questioning:

http://m.brne.ws/sport/smith-dropped-from-england-squad-after-bottle-throwing-arrest-121343.html

aidan24326

kryogen wrote: »

You may also be missing the point though? The complaint made to the police was by a member of the public, so its not really Anton taking Terry to court?

Sorry I didn't know that. But for me that makes the whole thing even more of a farce. Member of the public sending a guy to court for something that's nothing to do with him and that won't affect him in any way.

citytillidie

It was an off duty police man who made the complaint

LuckyLloyd

ceegee wrote: »

Bowyer/Woodgate (incl quote from Peter Taylor saying hed pick them if allowed,so def not a coaching decision):

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/1235604.stm

Ferdinand dropped prior to being found guilty of missing test:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-198758/Ferdinand-axed-drugs-uproar.html

Smith dropped after arrest and questioning:

http://m.brne.ws/sport/smith-dropped-from-england-squad-after-bottle-throwing-arrest-121343.html

Thanks for those (and the links provided by others). Hmm, one could argue the nature of the offenses were more serious in the above cases, but there would be some weight to the assertion that a precedent had been set...