Terry Court Case * Mod Note #51 *

Beefy78

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

JT - the intellect of an Amoeba

Have you ever given evidence in Court? It's a pretty nerve wracking experience.

A Dub in Glasgo

Beefy78 wrote: »

Have you ever given evidence in Court?

Yes I have, twice

Crackle

strawberryb0y wrote: »

Anyone else think Terry's defensive tactic of having his black mates say he isn't a racist wares a bit thin?
Hes not on trial for being a racist hes on trial for making a racist comment in one instance

Well as has been mentioned already, the defence is trying to show how it would be out of character for him to say something like that.

I mean, if the same black players made statements that Terry has made racially abusive remarks in the past, I'm sure you would agree that it would be relevant as part of the prosecutions case, yes?

carbon nanotube

who gives a f**k about JT...

my heart bleeds for the man if he gets fined 3 grand and loses the captains arm band for poor aul Chelsea.

life will never be the same again.

Kirby

Nobody takes testimony from friends seriously though and I feel it to be a waste of time, as do most. What else are they going to say? Forget a pinch of salt, a massive mountain of salt would be more accurate.

I find it more telling that Mikel was 10 yards from him and yet chose to have a statement read out instead of being there himself. The look on Mikels face as Terry shouts those remarks speaks a thousand words.

Crackle

Kirby wrote: »

The look on Mikels face as Terry shouts those remarks speaks a thousand words.

Where did you see that?

Kirby

The original video that they blanked out has Mikel in the foreground and he shows a very visible grimace as Terry is shouting. Clearly he heard everything.

I just find it odd that they brought Cole as a witness even though he didn't hear the exchange and yet Mikel chose to just have a prepared statement read out instead of showing up himself.

Plus the fact that terry is a known liar. In the champions league semi where he kicked Pedro in the back, in his initial statement when he got sent off he claimed he lost his balance and "fell" into him and it was accidental. Martin Tyler, in a rare moment of honesty on Sky, immediately called him out for lying during the commentary.

Terry obviously changed his mind after the game when he realised how ridiculous he sounded and just apologised for being stupid.

But it speaks to the man. His initial reaction was to just deny everything and shirk responsibility.

Crackle

Kirby wrote: »

The original video that they blanked out has Mikel in the foreground and he shows a very visible grimace as Terry is shouting. Clearly he heard everything.

By original video, do you mean from the live TV footage on Sky?

The only one I've ever seen is this, and it appears to be the live footage from Sky and Mikel isn't in it.

Kirby

He was standing beside him. He says so in his statement. The video is definitely out there as it was the first one I saw when I looked the incident up when it happened.

wonderfullife

To be honest from a legal point of view i don't see any way on earth they can find him guilty on the evidence presented. Anton Ferdinand didn't hear the insult and it comes down to Terrys word on the matter, nobody can ever "prove" beyond a reasonable doubt he's guilty of the offence. Even in a civil trial i'm not sure you could prove on the balance of probabilities that he's guilty. It's one thing people assuming he's guilty based on the video clip and another being found guilty in a court of law. I'd be shocked if it was a guilty verdict, should be a straightforward not guilty.

iregk

I don't really hold any love for Terry but to be honest this whole court case looks as flimsy and paper thin as one gets. Having read through the transcripts I have to side with the BBC court correspondent last night and say that the Ferdinand's, both of them are coming out of this looking like fools. As the lad on the beeb said, Ferdinands case has nothing in it and only serves to put him into worse light. At this stage it's almost gotten to the point where Anton should be up there rather than JT.

brick tamland

I reckon theres zero chance of a guilty verdict based on the evidence in court

Will the FA stilll have a seperate investigation when found not guilty?

GavRedKing

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2172304/John-Terry-racism-trial-Ashley-Cole-backs-Chelsea-captain.html

From the Daily Mail,bit in bold is interesting.

Terry's legal team read out a statement prepared for and signed by 17 members of Chelsea's first-team squad to say they have never heard him use racist language.

Former colleagues Didier Drogba, Nicolas Anelka and Alex, along with present team-mates Florent Malouda, John Mikel Obi, Gary Cahill and Josh McEachran, were not among the signatories

GavRedKing

GavRedKing wrote: »

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2172304/John-Terry-racism-trial-Ashley-Cole-backs-Chelsea-captain.html

From the Daily Mail,bit in bold is interesting.

Terry's legal team read out a statement prepared for and signed by 17 members of Chelsea's first-team squad to say they have never heard him use racist language.

Former colleagues Didier Drogba, Nicolas Anelka and Alex, along with present team-mates Florent Malouda, John Mikel Obi, Gary Cahill and Josh McEachran, were not among the signatories

Were they asked?

GavRedKing

rarnes1 wrote: »

Were they asked?

I'd guess, given the fact Drogba, Alex and Anelka are no longer Chelsea players they may not have been asked.

Cant really see why the rest wouldnt unless as you said they werent asked or werent available at the time to sign the statement.

Felexicon

GavRedKing wrote: »

I'd guess, given the fact Drogba, Alex and Anelka are no longer Chelsea players they may not have been asked.

Cant really see why the rest wouldnt unless as you said they werent asked or werent available at the time to sign the statement.

I remember an interview with Terry were he said he didn't speak to Malouda and Mikel.
It was something to do with being afraid of the dark if I remember correctly

Lumbo

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Yes I have, twice

So has John Terry.

SlickRic

Pros saying Ferdinand would "not have had the sophistication" to come up with the racist allegation in the midst of these insults

your own legal team are using your apparent stupidity as a way of trying to win the case.

pure brilliance.

Felexicon

SlickRic wrote: »

your own legal team are using your apparent stupidity as a way of trying to win the case.

pure brilliance.

Jesus wept!!!!

You can imagine them having a quiet word in the judges ear.
"look it clearly happened,these black lads don't have the intellect to make up lies like this"
"oh I suppose you're quite right, now, enough of this talk let us get back to our caviar and Cuban cigars."

GavRedKing

This trial has been full of LOLz even though its dealing with a serious matter.

It really shouldnt have went to trial IMO but here we are.

Felexicon

GavRedKing wrote: »

This trial has been full of LOLz even though its dealing with a serious matter.

It really shouldnt have went to trial IMO but here we are.

That means you're a racist :rolleyes:

GavRedKing

Thats it, I'm a racist, I've been foudn out.

No, what I mean is, if Terry's found guilty he'll get a tiny fine and I presume a similar ban to Suarez, 8 games.

I know due to the court case the FA couldnt have acted but it didnt warrant going to court if you ask me, ban Terry, fine him, dealt with. No point dragging it out for months and months.

Also if Terry is found to be innocent I'll bet you all the money in the world the Liverpool crowd will go beserk, theres no way the FA will issue a ban if the courts find him innocent and it will lead to the return of the Suarez debate.

I cant wait for that to happen. :rolleyes:

ASOT

GavRedKing wrote: »

Thats it, I'm a racist, I've been foudn out.

No, what I mean is, if Terry's found guilty he'll get a tiny fine and I presume a similar ban to Suarez, 8 games.

I know due to the court case the FA couldnt have acted but it didnt warrant going to court if you ask me, ban Terry, fine him, dealt with. No point dragging it out for months and months.

Also if Terry is found to be innocent I'll bet you all the money in the world the Liverpool crowd will go beserk, theres no way the FA will issue a ban if the courts find him innocent and it will lead to the return of the Suarez debate.

I cant wait for that to happen. :rolleyes:

But could you not understand why we would go beserk ? There is no way Suarez would have been found guilty in a real court, but I don't wanna start this discussion haha.

LuckyLloyd

GavRedKing wrote: »

Also if Terry is found to be innocent I'll bet you all the money in the world the Liverpool crowd will go beserk, theres no way the FA will issue a ban if the courts find him innocent and it will lead to the return of the Suarez debate.

I cant wait for that to happen. :rolleyes:

It would be entirely reasonable to find such an outcome infuriating.

GavRedKing

ASOT wrote: »

But could you not understand why we would go beserk ? There is no way Suarez would have been found guilty in a real court, but I don't wanna start this discussion haha.

I see exactly why any fan from any club would go beserk but if a court finds him innocent then I'd say the FA's hands would be tied.

Theres no way they'll do anything that would undermine the courts decision and issue a retrospective ban.

ASOT

GavRedKing wrote: »

I see exactly why any fan from any club would go beserk but if a court finds him innocent then I'd say the FA's hands would be tied.

Theres no way they'll do anything that would undermine the courts decision and issue a retrospective ban.

Yeah I completely agree with you on that aspect, I hope that's not the outcome as it would just dig back up the same arguments from months ago and I'd rather not get involved this time and no one will win :pac:

GavRedKing

ASOT wrote: »

Yeah I completely agree with you on that aspect, I hope that's not the outcome as it would just dig back up the same arguments from months ago and I'd rather not get involved this time and no one will win :pac:

That makes 2 of us,and I'd say the Soccer Forum as a whole would rather not going over that old ground again.;)

TBH, if hadnt gone to court and the FA issued a ban back in November I'd have agreed with it, if hes found guilty and the FA issue a ban starting from the 1st game of this season I'd also have no problem with it.

Ifs he found innocent I do think there'll be a lot of people up in arms and not just football fans.

Beefy78

GavRedKing wrote: »

Ifs he found innocent I do think there'll be a lot of people up in arms and not just football fans.

Bully for them. It's terribly inconvient that things like proof get in the way of what the mob want.

For what it's worth, I wouldn't have said that a not-guilty verdict would discount there being any chance of there being an FA charge, or even potentially a civil case from Anton Ferdinand. I suspect though that all parties will be keen to put all of this behind them and move on. No one is coming out of this well.

Techless

IMO, the evidence seems so inconclusive on both sides that it would seem extremely difficult for a definite decision of guilty or non guilty being made.

GavRedKing

Beefy78 wrote: »

Bully for them. It's terribly inconvient that things like proof get in the way of what the mob want.

For what it's worth, I wouldn't have said that a not-guilty verdict would discount there being any chance of there being an FA charge, or even potentially a civil case from Anton Ferdinand. I suspect though that all parties will be keen to put all of this behind them and move on. No one is coming out of this well.

If the FA try an issue a ban Terry can just point to a court of law finding him innocent, I cant see anyway the FA will try and persue with banning Terry and go against the courts decision.

If the matter turns into a civil case with Anton that will be a different matter but we need a resolution in this case before anything becomes clear.

I can see why that Liverpool fans would be up in arms though if JT's found innocent.

Beefy78

Pros: "what sort of accuser claims not to have heard the offending words and then appears clueless?"

It's like that episode of Red Dwarf where Kryton defends Rimmer by claiming that he's too stupid to have commited the crime he's accused for.

Who would make up this allegation if it wasn't true? Only a yoghurt.

bwatson

GavRedKing wrote: »

If the FA try an issue a ban Terry can just point to a court of law finding him innocent, I cant see anyway the FA will try and persue with banning Terry and go against the courts decision.

If the matter turns into a civil case with Anton that will be a different matter but we need a resolution in this case before anything becomes clear.

I can see why that Liverpool fans would be up in arms though if JT's found innocent.

Is that because they always appear to be up in arms?

GavRedKing

bwatson wrote: »

Is that because they always appear to be up in arms?

They have their arms raised a bit, according to this factual representation of a Liverpool fan.

:pac:

Sgt Pepper 64

John Terry provided some unintended hilarity in court yesterday


today at 8:03 am

There’s not an awful lot of humour to be taken from the John Terry trial at the minute, but the Chelsea skipper had the courtroom in stitches of laughter yesterday after a hilarious misunderstanding.
With both Terry and Ferdinand having to go into explicit detail about the insults traded on the pitch last year, Terry having to talk about abuse directed towards his mother and Paddy Kenny being called fat, the whole case has been a rather unsavoury affair, but there have been a few lighter moments over the last few days.
Terry’s self-deprecating response about once being a supreme athlete and Ashley Cole being asked if it was true that nobody ever makes noise at the Emirates raised a few chuckles, but both incidents paled into comparison with some unintentionally hilarious testimony from Terry yesterday.
Quizzed about his disciplinary record throughout his playing days, Terry was asked to repeat evidence that he had been sent off four times in his career.
“Can you say, please, four times?” asked his QC, George Carter-Stephenson.
“Please, please, please, please,” Terry responded.
The courtroom broke into hysteria in response to Terry’s comments and according to reports, he appeared confused by the reaction from the courtroom and couldn’t figure out what they found so funny.
In fairness, we have a degree of sympathy for Terry in this case because the manner in which the question was phrased seemed to be targeting the response that Terry eventually gave.
Still, when you think about it, there is rarely a scenario that would materialise in court that would require a defendant to say ‘please’ four times in succession, but at least the gallery were given something to laugh about in a trial where chuckles are few and far between.

Beefy78

GavRedKing wrote: »

If the FA try an issue a ban Terry can just point to a court of law finding him innocent, I cant see anyway the FA will try and persue with banning Terry and go against the courts decision.

If the matter turns into a civil case with Anton that will be a different matter but we need a resolution in this case before anything becomes clear.

I can see why that Liverpool fans would be up in arms though if JT's found innocent.

I don't think the first point is necessarily true as the FA charge wouldn't and the legal case would be on different points. Terry doesn't deny using the words.

Had the CPS not got involved, Terry would have got a fine and a ban last season and everyone would have moved on. If the FA want to pursue it then I doubt a 'not guilty' verdict would hamper that but literally no good will come, IMO, of dragging it out for another couple of months.

Renn

The 'please, please, please, please' bit is fúcking gold

cgpg5

Techless wrote: »

IMO, the evidence seems so inconclusive on both sides that it would seem extremely difficult for a definite decision of guilty or non guilty being made.

Since it's inconclusive a definite decision of not guilty has to be given. The only difficulty is in whether to give a guilty verdict. It has to be proven beyond all reasonable doubt that he is guilty. If there is any doubt whatsoever he will be found not guilty.

I would be amazed if he was found guilty tbh

bwatson

bwatson wrote: »

Is that because they always appear to be up in arms?

I'm a Liverpool fan and I'm not always up in arms so straight away your statement is factually nonsense.

It's all about fairness from the FA.

They laid down the marker last year and it will be interesting will they put Terry on trial in a kangeroo court ala Suarez, or roll along with the outcome of this case.

We all know what the probable answer to that is.

You can't have one rule for one player and a different rule for another. I think that should be a given.

GavRedKing

rarnes1 wrote: »

I'm a Liverpool fan and I'm not always up in arms so straight away your statement is factually nonsense.

It's all about fairness from the FA.

They laid down the marker last year and it will be interesting will they put Terry on trial in a kangeroo court ala Suarez, or roll along with the outcome of this case.

We all know what the probable answer to that is.

You can't have one rule for one player and a different rule for another. I think that should be a given.

Its th English FA, they will favour Terry.

I've said it once but if he is found innocent I dont think anything else will happen about this regarding a possible FA investigation.

I suppose we'll all have to wait and see what the courts decision is.

GavRedKing

GavRedKing wrote: »

Its th English FA, they will favour Terry.

I've said it once but if he is found innocent I dont think anything else will happen about this regarding a possible FA investigation.

I suppose we'll all have to wait and see what the courts decision is.

I'd say you'll be right, not much will happen,but what message would that send out then? It's ok to shout racial slurs on the pitch as long as it doesn't make it into the refs report?

If the FA are serious on the racism issue, they'll be a hypocritical laughing stock if they don't have their own inverstigation on the issue.

Kess73

GavRedKing wrote: »

Its th English FA, they will favour Terry.

I've said it once but if he is found innocent I dont think anything else will happen about this regarding a possible FA investigation.

I suppose we'll all have to wait and see what the courts decision is.

If there is no action from the FA, if Terry gets no punishmen from the trial, then it creates a potential loophole for any comments made on the pitch. If one player comes out in the future and says that another player abused him using racist comments, then the accused (if it was a case of word against word with no video evidence) could quite easily have someone (a member of the public or whatnot) report it to the police and look to have it brought to a criminal court.

The worst they could face is a £2,500 fine, but without evidence it would not go far in a criminal court and if a criminal court won't convict, then the FA will have left themselves open to be powerless as they will already have shown that a criminal court result trumps them.


I do think that if the FA don't act at all, and I think that will be the outcome, that their respect campaign and the Kick racism out campaign will be shown to be of little worth and nothing more than a token gesture.

froog

rarnes1 wrote: »

I'd say you'll be right, not much will happen,but what message would that send out then? It's ok to shout racial slurs on the pitch as long as it doesn't make it into the refs report?

If the FA are serious on the racism issue, they'll be a hypocritical laughing stock if they don't have their own inverstigation on the issue.

if he's found innocent in a court of law, how can the FA charge or investigate him? how could they find him guilty when the law finds him innocent, it would look ridiculous.

GavRedKing

rarnes1 wrote: »

I'd say you'll be right, not much will happen,but what message would that send out then? It's ok to shout racial slurs on the pitch as long as it doesn't make it into the refs report?

If the FA are serious on the racism issue, they'll be a hypocritical laughing stock if they don't have their own inverstigation on the issue.

It would be a terrible PR situtaion for the FA, its clear as day what Terry says but the court case is their to find out if it was aimed at Ferdinand or repeating what Ferdinand said.

If Terry is innocent what I see happening is :

1) FA Washing their hands with it and taking the courts decision while stating in oublic that any racism of any kind is not tolerated to some what save face.

2) They'll investiagte it, to be seen to be taken action and not do anything and issue a statement saying due to the court case findings they wont be taking action but warn Terry about future conduct and again say any racism of any kind is not tolerated.

3) Throw the book at him regardless of if hes found to be innocent and ban him for 8 games as well as fining him. This option coudl very will leave Terry with grounds for an appeal though and less likely to be taken up IMO.

Most likely scenario to happen is number 2 IMO, but thats if hes found to be innocent, if hes guilty I'd hope the FA take action as English favourtism should have no place when dealing with racism at any level of the game let alone a former national team captain.

Kess73

GavRedKing wrote: »

They have their arms raised a bit, according to this factual representation of a Liverpool fan.

:pac:

I take offence to that picture. I have never worn a shellsuit of that colour.

froog

froog wrote: »

if he's found innocent in a court of law, how can the FA charge or investigate him? how could they find him guilty when the law finds him innocent, it would look ridiculous.

As a comparisent, how do you think Suarez's case would have went in a court of law?

Laughed out of the court due to lack of evidence is the answer.

As I said, they laid the marker last year with their own "trial".

GavRedKing

Kess73 wrote: »

If there is no action from the FA, if Terry gets no punishmen from the trial, then it creates a potential loophole for any comments made on the pitch. If one player comes out in the future and says that another player abused him using racist comments, then the accused (if it was a case of word against word with no video evidence) could quite easily have someone (a member of the public or whatnot) report it to the police and look to have it brought to a criminal court.

The worst they could face is a £2,500 fine, but without evidence it would not go far in a criminal court and if a criminal court won't convict, then the FA will have left themselves open to be powerless as they will already have shown that a criminal court result trumps them.


I do think that if the FA don't act at all, and I think that will be the outcome, that their respect campaign and the Kick racism out campaign will be shown to be of little worth and nothing more than a token gesture.

The reason this went so far is there is evidence to suggest that Terry said something.

In the other Suarez/Evra case there was no witnesses apart from the two lads invovled so even if someone was to have come forward and say the heard or witnessed something the CPS would have to decide if there was enough evidence to warrant a trial, in the Suarez/Evra case it would have been struck out as other then Evra's word theres no evidence but for Terry's case, theres a few videos clips whcih suggest hes used racial slur.

ThunbergsAreGo

Im a Liverpool fan and if he is found innocent have no problem with him getting no ban etc. espeically without a thorough FA investigation which if they went against the court coul be interesting

If he is found innocent he is innocent of the charge. The other alternative is to ban anyone who MAY have done something wrong

froog

rarnes1 wrote: »

As a comparisent, how do you think Suarez's case would have went in a court of law?

Laughed out of the court due to lack of evidence is the answer.

As I said, they laid the marker last year with their own "trial".

i'd take a court of law over a mickey mouse internal investigation any day tbh.

froog

if he's found innocent and the FA go ahead with some charges or bannings he (and chelsea) would have a good case to take them to court i would think.

GavRedKing

Kess73 wrote: »

I take offence to that picture. I have never worn a shellsuit of that colour.

I'm ashamed to say I have a picture of me as a young fella, probably about 8,9 wearing one like that but its mainly white instead of the blue in that picture.

Stupid parents. :pac: