Can I opt out of Visa Debt card?

daheff

I've been told that I am being issued (on phased basis) with a visa debit card. I only have standard atm card at the moment and have no desire or need for a visa debit card...why is this being foisted upon me?

Bank of Ireland: Billy wrote: »

While it is possible to have a standard ATM card, please be aware that this card cannot be used outside Ireland and does not have Point of Sale capabilities.

This is as current standard ATM cards operate?

Bank of Ireland: Billy wrote: »

We have just been notified of an option to have an ATM Card only.
If you would prefer to have the standard card, you will need to call Banking 365 again on 0818 365 355 and a representative will offer assistance.

I think BOI should be getting explicit requests from customers to avail of a debit card and not having to ring to just have the 'standard' atm card.

Has the Financial Regulator approved issuing financial products in this way to customers without their explicit consent?

Bank of Ireland: Linda

Hi daheff,

I have forwarded your feedback on to our Visa Debit team. You are correct; that is the current procedure to keep your atm only card.

We provided advance notification to the Financial Regulator about our transition to Visa Debit cards. Bank of Ireland complied with the Financial Regulator and relevant legislation governing this process.

Thanks
Linda

smurfjed

As I have no desire to have a new credit card, is there anything stopping me from having the credit limit set to ZERO.

smurfjed

ArrBee

Hi Graham,

The less security I refer to is the fact that someone else can spend my money by supplying my card details online.
With a credit card this is not the case so offers some protection from fraud.
Unfortunately "verified by Visa" doesn't prevent the possibility of fraud as it requires the merchant to participate.

I'm sure you will agree that fraudulent access to an account is easier via a Visa Debit card than via a Laser card.
I understand that there is nothing that can be done to prevent all banks effectively outsourcing their electronic payment systems to Visa but it would have shown leadership in the industry and good customer relations to at least give your customers a choice along the lines of preventing Visa transactions on a particular card if requested to.

I'm sure the financial regulator has no issue with what is happening regarding the change over to visa debt cards.
But then again the financial regulator didn't seem to have much of a problem with many questionable practices in the banking sector over the last 9 years.

Bank of Ireland: Linda

Hi smurfjed,

The new Visa Debit card is not a credit card. It operates like a Laser card; you must have the money in your account to allow transactions through. There is no credit limit.

I hope this answers your question.
Thanks
Linda

smurfjed

Linda, thank you....smurfjed

daheff

daheff wrote: »

Has the Financial Regulator approved issuing financial products in this way to customers without their explicit consent?

Bank of Ireland: Linda wrote: »

We provided advance notification to the Financial Regulator about our transition to Visa Debit cards. Bank of Ireland complied with the Financial Regulator and relevant legislation governing this process.

Hi Linda,

Your answer isn't really answering the question I asked.

My question is not regarding the generic change to Visa Debit cards, its in relation to issuing debit cards to people (even if not activated) who have not requested this product.

Bank of Ireland: Billy

Hi RB,

We are not obliged to receive Financial Regulator approval however we do need to comply with the Financial Regulator and relevant legislation governing this process. Eg, We provided our customers with 2 months notification of our intention to move to Visa Debit by placing a notification in the national press. We also advised customers when they received their cards that they do not have to accept the new terms and conditions.

Thanks

Billy

Bob24

ArrBee wrote: »

Hi Graham,

The less security I refer to is the fact that someone else can spend my money by supplying my card details online.
With a credit card this is not the case so offers some protection from fraud.
Unfortunately "verified by Visa" doesn't prevent the possibility of fraud as it requires the merchant to participate.

I'm sure you will agree that fraudulent access to an account is easier via a Visa Debit card than via a Laser card.
I understand that there is nothing that can be done to prevent all banks effectively outsourcing their electronic payment systems to Visa but it would have shown leadership in the industry and good customer relations to at least give your customers a choice along the lines of preventing Visa transactions on a particular card if requested to.

I'm sure the financial regulator has no issue with what is happening regarding the change over to visa debt cards.
But then again the financial regulator didn't seem to have much of a problem with many questionable practices in the banking sector over the last 9 years.

Yes - we would agree that a visa card has more chances of being fraudulently used internationally that a Laser one.
Having said that, this is simply due to its wider acceptance and not to security flaws. We will probably agree that Visa cards have much more advanced security features that Laser ones (as Laser has much less resources to invest in this). Laser might look "safer" because it is smaller and not an attractive target, but your laser card can still easily be used to purchase stuff online from many UK websites which accept Switch card and possible in other countries with similar systems. It would be interesting to see statistics of fraudulent transactions from banks which have switched from Laser to Visa or Mastercard before BoI.
Also, regardless of this an Ireland-only system like Laser simply doesn't make sense nowadays - it is doomed to disappear. Even if Bank of Ireland (or other banks) was still willing to issue Laser cards for customers who want one; most customers would opt-in for Visa cards because they want to use them online or internationally. So now that most banks offer Visa or Mastercard debit cards, the amount of customers using Laser would anyway become a small minority. The organisation managing Laser would have to increase their transaction fees due to processing a much smaller number of transactions but still having to maintain their infrastructure. For shop owners it would stop making sense to pay these ever increasing fees just for a small amount of customers which can also pay cash or with their credit card. So in the medium term you would probably be in a situation where you have a Laser card but many shops don’t accept it anymore.

By stopping to issue any Laser card, Bank of Ireland is just killing them faster. But anyway if they were willing to issue one to you; you would probably see that by the time that one expires no-one accepts it anymore and you will be asking for a Visa. So Laser is dying either way …

daheff

Bank of Ireland: Billy wrote: »

Hi RB,

We are not obliged to receive Financial Regulator approval however we do need to comply with the Financial Regulator and relevant legislation governing this process. Eg, We provided our customers with 2 months notification of our intention to move to Visa Debit by placing a notification in the national press. We also advised customers when they received their cards that they do not have to accept the new terms and conditions.

Thanks

Billy

Again Billy you arent answering the question that is being asked (and i'm getting pretty fed up at you and your colleagues doing so)

in the case where somebody has not had a debit card(just a standard ATM card) and they are now being issued a debit card (without applying for the product). Have you approval to do issue a debit card without the account holders request?

Bank of Ireland: Laura

Hi daheff.

Apologies if our previous posts have been unclear.

We don't need to receive approval from the Financial Regulator, however we are acting within their requirements and regulations supplied by them and are abiding by our terms and conditions.

We are currently replacing Laser cards with Visa Debits therefore customers don't need to apply for them. You agree to the new terms and conditions when you activate your new card.
The ATM only card is remaining as a product and if you do not want a Visa Debit, please contact your account holding branch where a representative will be happy to make the necessary arrangements for you.

Hope this helps.
Laura

ArrBee

Bank of Ireland: Billy wrote: »

Hi RB,

We are not obliged to receive Financial Regulator approval however we do need to comply with the Financial Regulator and relevant legislation governing this process. Eg, We provided our customers with 2 months notification of our intention to move to Visa Debit by placing a notification in the national press. We also advised customers when they received their cards that they do not have to accept the new terms and conditions.

Thanks

Billy

Hi Billy,

I was only mentioning the financial regulator and their "approval" of the process because it was already mentioned by Linda when she said they had been notified and BoI complied with their regulations.
I understand you may not be obliged to have approval (so long as you are complying) but the point I was trying to make was twofold.

1. that "complying" is often doing the minimum required and that here is a chance for BoI to do more than the minimum, show leadership in the industry and meet a greater percentage of their customer needs than what they are currently attempting to do.
-offer a way to block all Visa transactions or all non-PoS (chip&PIN) transactions on a visa debit card on request.

2. that compliance with the financial regulations while legally sound, doesn't necessarily equal morally sound as we have seen in the past 9 years.
eg. using the claim that BoI is adhering to financial regulations doesn't mean the decisions taken are necessarily good.

Is there any way BoI may consider disabling the Visa part of a debit card if requested to do so?
This would seem to meet the needs of those who want a visa debit card and those who want a regular debit card on the +plus network

Cheers,
RB

ArrBee

Bob24 wrote: »

Yes - we would agree that a visa card has more chances of being fraudulently used internationally that a Laser one.
Having said that, this is simply due to its wider acceptance and not to security flaws. We will probably agree that Visa cards have much more advanced security features that Laser ones (as Laser has much less resources to invest in this). Laser might look "safer" because it is smaller and not an attractive target, but your laser card can still easily be used to purchase stuff online from many UK websites which accept Switch card and possible in other countries with similar systems. It would be interesting to see statistics of fraudulent transactions from banks which have switched from Laser to Visa or Mastercard before BoI.
Also, regardless of this an Ireland-only system like Laser simply doesn't make sense nowadays - it is doomed to disappear. Even if Bank of Ireland (or other banks) was still willing to issue Laser cards for customers who want one; most customers would opt-in for Visa cards because they want to use them online or internationally. So now that most banks offer Visa or Mastercard debit cards, the amount of customers using Laser would anyway become a small minority. The organisation managing Laser would have to increase their transaction fees due to processing a much smaller number of transactions but still having to maintain their infrastructure. For shop owners it would stop making sense to pay these ever increasing fees just for a small amount of customers which can also pay cash or with their credit card. So in the medium term you would probably be in a situation where you have a Laser card but many shops don’t accept it anymore.

By stopping to issue any Laser card, Bank of Ireland is just killing them faster. But anyway if they were willing to issue one to you; you would probably see that by the time that one expires no-one accepts it anymore and you will be asking for a Visa. So Laser is dying either way …

Hi Bob,

can I ask if you represent BoI?
It doesn't show as such.


the points you raise are valid.
I wasn't aware that even domestically, the visa debit cards would not use the laser network.

Does this mean then that Visa International will have a record of all electronic payments?

I am a little surprised that most people would opt-in for visa debit, but I fear you're probably right.
I would have thought that only those that either can't get, or don't want a proper credit card would get any use from a visa debit card which wouldn't be "most".

Is there any reason why I would use a visa debit instead of visa credit?

I'm beginning to think that the killing off of the laser network is not a natural evolution but a well executed plan from Visa to own a bigger piece for the interbank networks and possibly build an almighty transactions data warehouse.

Bank of Ireland: Linda

Hi RB,

I have forwarded your feedback and suggestions to our Visa Debit card team.

Bank of Ireland's debit card is now a Visa Debit card.

Bank of Ireland: Laura wrote: »

The ATM only card is remaining as a product and if you do not want a Visa Debit, please contact your account holding branch where a representative will be happy to make the necessary arrangements for you.

Thanks
Linda

Pablo Sanchez

ArrBee wrote: »

Hi Bob,

can I ask if you represent BoI?
It doesn't show as such.


the points you raise are valid.
I wasn't aware that even domestically, the visa debit cards would not use the laser network.

Does this mean then that Visa International will have a record of all electronic payments?

I am a little surprised that most people would opt-in for visa debit, but I fear you're probably right.
I would have thought that only those that either can't get, or don't want a proper credit card would get any use from a visa debit card which wouldn't be "most".

Is there any reason why I would use a visa debit instead of visa credit?

I'm beginning to think that the killing off of the laser network is not a natural evolution but a well executed plan from Visa to own a bigger piece for the interbank networks and possibly build an almighty transactions data warehouse.

Il be honest, im not sure you know what a debit card is. It will act exactly the same as your laser, but the scheme is run by VISA instead of Laser.

Put out of your mind that this is similar in anyway to a VISA credit card, except in the fact that it can be accepted anywhere VISA credit cards are, therefore making it a far more attractive (for the majority of people anyway) prospect then Laser.

él statutorio

Pablo Sanchez wrote: »

Il be honest, im not sure you know what a debit card is. It will act exactly the same as your laser, but the scheme is run by VISA instead of Laser.

Put out of your mind that this is similar in anyway to a VISA credit card, except in the fact that it can be accepted anywhere VISA credit cards are, therefore making it a far more attractive (for the majority of people anyway) prospect then Laser.

I'd be more worried about who owns (and who gets to see) the transaction data. Is it BOI or Visa or both?

MrO

ArrBee wrote: »

I am a little surprised that most people would opt-in for visa debit, but I fear you're probably right.
I would have thought that only those that either can't get, or don't want a proper credit card would get any use from a visa debit card which wouldn't be "most".

Is there any reason why I would use a visa debit instead of visa .

...because I wouldn't need to use a credit card to pay for goods online or at point of sale. Previously we didnt really have an option until laser which was a big leap ... But that was mostly limited to to Irish goods/sites. With visa debit I only need reach for credit card if I really need it.


I thinks it's great that the ATM card will double as a debit card...just makes things easier
I don't see an increased security risk beyond the contactless payments which is limited in spend and the pros outweigh the cons (in theory we should be able to do this with our phones soon anyway)
Privacy is a concern but I'd be kidding myself if though anything other than used note payments in a back alley were not recorded and analysed somewhere...

Bob24

ArrBee wrote: »

Hi Bob,

can I ask if you represent BoI?
It doesn't show as such.


the points you raise are valid.
I wasn't aware that even domestically, the visa debit cards would not use the laser network.

Does this mean then that Visa International will have a record of all electronic payments?

I am a little surprised that most people would opt-in for visa debit, but I fear you're probably right.
I would have thought that only those that either can't get, or don't want a proper credit card would get any use from a visa debit card which wouldn't be "most".

Is there any reason why I would use a visa debit instead of visa credit?

I'm beginning to think that the killing off of the laser network is not a natural evolution but a well executed plan from Visa to own a bigger piece for the interbank networks and possibly build an almighty transactions data warehouse.

Hi,

No I have nothignto do with BoI :-)

I am no specialist here, but yes I would assume Visa will have a view of all your transactions including local ones. One alternative would be to have hybrid Laser/Visa cards (the old Laser Cards were almost there with Maestro support, except Maestro is definitly not as widely accepted as regular Mastercard at POS or online in my experience). I am French (though in Ireland for a while ...) and this is what banks have been doing there for as far as I can remeber (20+ years). All debit cards both support the local Carte Bleue (CB) system and either Visa or Mastercard. So when you use the card in France it is managed by the CB organisation, and abroad it will go through Visa/Mastercard.
I think historically the main reason for CB to survive is that France has had chip and PIN cards for at least 30 years (probably more) and until fairly recently Visa and Mastercard could not handle that. If I look at the situation in Ireland today, I can't really see anything Laser provides that Visa can't provide. So probably it doesn't make sense for the banks to pay in order to keep it alive just for the sake of having a local electronic payment system ... though obviously your point that it means to move transactions data outside of the country is a valid one.

Personally, coming from this French system I was a bit surprise/annoyed when I came to Ireland that banks here were providing debit cards which only have local acceptance.
I have never had a credit card and have no interest in signing a credit agreement with anyone as I only buy what I can afford. Of course not all credit card holders in Ireland are crazy spenders; but then if you look at it: in that case why do they need a credit card except because they want to use it online and abroad; so nothing to do with credit. In that case why not put that function directly on their debit card and save them from entering a credit agreement they don't need and don't necessarily fully understand? I think many people are just conditioned to get a credit card for internationnal/online purchases, but actually they don't need it and it is a way for the bank to lure them into expensive credits (since the option of Visa/Mastercard debit has always been there in France; most people don't have a credit card - even though this is changing as banks are using marketing tricks to enable credit on their bank cards without them fully realising what they are getting into). So personally I see the Visa debit card as a very positive change for bank customers (even though yes, I am also concerned about my privacy and personal data :-)).

ArrBee

Pablo Sanchez wrote: »

Il be honest, im not sure you know what a debit card is. It will act exactly the same as your laser, but the scheme is run by VISA instead of Laser.

Put out of your mind that this is similar in anyway to a VISA credit card, except in the fact that it can be accepted anywhere VISA credit cards are, therefore making it a far more attractive (for the majority of people anyway) prospect then Laser.

Thanks for your concern, but I do understand the difference and always have.

ArrBee

él statutorio wrote: »

I'd be more worried about who owns (and who gets to see) the transaction data. Is it BOI or Visa or both?

Bingo!
and further to that, if Visa is an international company and have access to Irish transactional records, how will they respond to a request for information from a non-Irish authority?

ArrBee

MrO wrote: »

...because I wouldn't need to use a credit card to pay for goods online or at point of sale. Previously we didnt really have an option until laser which was a big leap ... But that was mostly limited to to Irish goods/sites. With visa debit I only need reach for credit card if I really need it.


I thinks it's great that the ATM card will double as a debit card...just makes things easier
I don't see an increased security risk beyond the contactless payments which is limited in spend and the pros outweigh the cons (in theory we should be able to do this with our phones soon anyway)
Privacy is a concern but I'd be kidding myself if though anything other than used note payments in a back alley were not recorded and analysed somewhere...

If you have a visa CC as well as a visa debit, you would spend your credit balance at point of sale rather than at the end of the month?
I guess it gives you the option to choose which you prefer which can't be a bad thing.


The security concern is the fact that any fraudulent activity on the card effects your credit balance. ie has an immediate impact to your finances.
Whereas fraudulent activity on a credit card does not.
Imagine being overseas and all of a sudden you have no money in your account.
I've had fraudulent transactions on my credit card in the past but was able to dispute them instead of paying them. this no longer becomes possible as the money is already gone.

Basically, if there was a way to only allow for chip/pin usage that would be ideal for me.


Re: the privacy, at least currently your transaction info should be staying in Ireland. any foreign authority *should* not be able to access it.
I shudder to think how the data may be collected and used going forward...

ArrBee

Bob24 wrote: »

Hi,

No I have nothignto do with BoI :-)

I am no specialist here, but yes I would assume Visa will have a view of all your transactions including local ones. One alternative would be to have hybrid Laser/Visa cards (the old Laser Cards were almost there with Maestro support, except Maestro is definitly not as widely accepted as regular Mastercard at POS or online in my experience). I am French (though in Ireland for a while ...) and this is what banks have been doing there for as far as I can remeber (20+ years). All debit cards both support the local Carte Bleue (CB) system and either Visa or Mastercard. So when you use the card in France it is managed by the CB organisation, and abroad it will go through Visa/Mastercard.
I think historically the main reason for CB to survive is that France has had chip and PIN cards for at least 30 years (probably more) and until fairly recently Visa and Mastercard could not handle that. If I look at the situation in Ireland today, I can't really see anything Laser provides that Visa can't provide. So probably it doesn't make sense for the banks to pay in order to keep it alive just for the sake of having a local electronic payment system ... though obviously your point that it means to move transactions data outside of the country is a valid one.

Personally, coming from this French system I was a bit surprise/annoyed when I came to Ireland that banks here were providing debit cards which only have local acceptance.
I have never had a credit card and have no interest in signing a credit agreement with anyone as I only buy what I can afford. Of course not all credit card holders in Ireland are crazy spenders; but then if you look at it: in that case why do they need a credit card except because they want to use it online and abroad; so nothing to do with credit. In that case why not put that function directly on their debit card and save them from entering a credit agreement they don't need and don't necessarily fully understand? I think many people are just conditioned to get a credit card for internationnal/online purchases, but actually they don't need it and it is a way for the bank to lure them into expensive credits (since the option of Visa/Mastercard debit has always been there in France; most people don't have a credit card - even though this is changing as banks are using marketing tricks to enable credit on their bank cards without them fully realising what they are getting into). So personally I see the Visa debit card as a very positive change for bank customers (even though yes, I am also concerned about my privacy and personal data :-)).

Interesting points.
I can see how when given the option of visa debit it can lead to less CC take up. I've only got a CC through work, if I didn't then I would be looking forward to having a visa debit. Currently I see it as something I don't need so would rather not have. If my situation were different, privacy would be the only concern.

I hope step 2 isn't to add credit facilities to the debit cards.
I'd hate to see automatic overdrafts become the norm.


Thanks for taking the time to share your comments.

BeepBeep67

Cash Back

I've had a few shops say that the new Visa debit card doesn't facilitate the cash back option which was a feature with Laser.
Is this the case or a misunderstanding by the shops?

Pablo Sanchez

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

Cash Back

I've had a few shops say that the new Visa debit card doesn't facilitate the cash back option which was a feature with Laser.
Is this the case or a misunderstanding by the shops?

Yes, cashback of up to €100 is available on the card.

Bank of Ireland: Graham

Hi BeepBeep67,

As Pablo Sanchez mentioned, this feature is available:

Bank of Ireland: Linda wrote: »

you can get cash back on your Visa Debit card up to €100. It is at the shops own discretion if they have a minimum spend or have the cash back facility available.

Thanks for your query,
Graham

keithclancy

Just a point to note, these Visa Debit cards do not work in a lot of Mainland Europe POS systems.

E.G. The Dutch NS POS systems only accept Maestro and in the Larger Stations (Amsterdam/Utrecht/Den Haag) only accept Credit Card and NOT Visa Debit or Electron cards.

Also the normal EFTPOS systems used in Most shops do not accept these cards either and will usually only take a Visa Credit card where the Visa Logo is displayed.

Its a total crap shoot in Germany whether it works or not.

In short, make sure your bring enough cash with you when travelling, your usually ok if you find an ATM from a well known bank NL (ING/ABN Amro/Rabobank) DE (Deutsche Bank, Postbank, Sparkasse) although they may stick on a hefty charge for withdrawing cash.

Afaik Maestro seems to be much for widely accepted (all Dutch EFTPOS systems accept this, Formerly Pinnen)

So in short, I could use my Irish BOI Laser card just fine in the Netherlands, this Visa Debit card is pretty much useless, I'll stick with the Credit Card and just pay my bill on time instead.

LashingLady

Bank of Ireland: Graham wrote: »

Hi BeepBeep67,

As Pablo Sanchez mentioned, this feature is available:

Bank of Ireland: Linda wrote: »

you can get cash back on your Visa Debit card up to €100. It is at the shops own discretion if they have a minimum spend or have the cash back facility available.

Thanks for your query,
Graham

I had to give my CCV number to get cash back when using my visa debit - it seems to be an added control to the cashback process. The shop assistant I was buying from didn't know this at first so you might have to let them know.

ArrBee While Visa International is a global company Visa Ireland would be over the Irish Visa network and would have a middleman relationship with Issuing banks (your bank) and acquiring banks (your shops bank). They are governed by the financial regulator, Irish company law and data protection the same way that Laser is/was.

Bank of Ireland: Graham

Hi LashingLady,

Thanks very much for posting. Retailers shouldn't need to request your CCV number when processing any Point of Sale transaction, including cashback. If possible, can you please PM us with the name of the shop so we can have a look into it?

Thanks for your help,
Graham