Blood on the hands of the Irish Criminal Justice System

Laminations

I posted this in After Hours but seeing the calibre of adjacent posts, I though I'd make a thread for discussion here

Laminations wrote: »

Raymond Donnan, 22, from Greenfort Crescent in Clondalkin, Dublin, faces five charges in connection with a stabbing at the Swedish House Mafia concert last Saturday night.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0709/man-charged-with-concert-stabbings-due-in-court.html

Denied bail

What hasn't been reported in the media, yet, is his laundry list of previous criminal convictions.

You can start with this from when he was 20 (which says he had 22 previous convictions then)



Another 'troubled youth' slipped through the fumbling hands of our justice system, who couldn't deal with him appropriately the first time they were presented with him, or the second, or the third.......

Problem citizens are flagged very early on, they can be identified in schools (if they attend) and usually have very early contact with the Gardai and the courts. Special efforts should be made to rehabilitate these youths, required if necessary (and it seems it is) extended periods in prison to protect society.

Judges seem to be fudging their responsibility to protect society from repeat offenders. They are making poor judgements and there seems to be no consequence for them. They deem it appropriate that a defendant gets bail and then that defendant commits more crimes while out on bail and there is no review of the judges decision making

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/suspects-on-bail-commit-25pc-of-recorded-crimes-1393774.html

They make decisions about the length and appropriateness of custodial sentences (esp. in case of repeat offenders) and there is no accountability either from the judiciary or the prison service about prisoners leaving prison not one bit rehabilitated.

Overcrowding is a huge issue for the system and needs urgent addressing so judges aren't making daft rulings

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/alarm-over-number-of-crimes-committed-by-those-out-on-bail-2218900.html

A third of prisoners who go into Mountjoy are currently released back on to streets due to chronic overcrowding

Uriel.

To be honest, I agree with your overall general sentiments.

However, I am not sure that the example you have provided is a good basis for those sentiments.

However, I am sure there are plenty more suitable examples such as the people who get suspended sentences for serious assault or a few years for killing someone etc...or those who have been released early for whatever reason.

I am assuming that solutions need to be kickstarted by Government - with better systems to deal with people who have not paid fines etc... (e.g. reduce their social welfare benefits or their tax credits) to deal with overcrowding issues and then introduce (long) mandatory sentences for serious crime.

Laminations

While there are hundreds of examples of insufficient sentences and leniency on the part of judges to serious violent crime, this case is current and I think it still supports my point.

The 22-year-old is charged with five offences including assault causing harm, violent disorder, possession of a knife and two public order offenses

What about attempted murder? You stab someone in the head or through vital organs and you can't really argue you were trying to tickle them. With 22 previous convictions (at least) the fella shouldn't have been at the concert, he shouldn't have been on the street.

As well as this case being a current example, of which I'm sure there are many, I was in the area in the day and witnessed the gangs of drunk topless youths (popping pills and doing coke in public) on the way to the event. It was obvious there would be trouble. The park and surrounding areas were thrashed. There is quickly becoming an anti-social criminal class in this country that the judiciary ignore and the government have tried to hide with regeneration.

Uriel.

Laminations wrote: »

While there are hundreds of examples of insufficient sentences and leniency on the part of judges to serious violent crime, this case is current and I think it still supports my point.

The 22-year-old is charged with five offences including assault causing harm, violent disorder, possession of a knife and two public order offenses

What about attempted murder? You stab someone in the head or through vital organs and you can't really argue you were trying to tickle them. With 22 previous convictions (at least) the fella shouldn't have been at the concert, he shouldn't have been on the street.

As well as this case being a current example, of which I'm sure there are many, I was in the area in the day and witnessed the gangs of drunk topless youths (popping pills and doing coke in public) on the way to the event. It was obvious there would be trouble. The park and surrounding areas were thrashed. There is quickly becoming an anti-social criminal class in this country that the judiciary ignore and the government have tried to hide with regeneration.

As I say, I don't disagree with your sentiments.

There has to be a strong political will to change these things. There is no one solution. By the way, I think regeneration is part of the solution. Along with education, social inclusion, State intervention at an early stage when a child is in a negative environment. But also there needs to be a move towards zero tolerance for criminal activity. We're not there nor do I think we are ready for that yet. Political will for a holistic approach is badly needed and urgent.

troposphere

I bet he will get less time than that guy that imported garlic without paying full tax

Laminations

Uriel. wrote: »

As I say, I don't disagree with your sentiments.

There has to be a strong political will to change these things. There is no one solution. By the way, I think regeneration is part of the solution. Along with education, social inclusion, State intervention at an early stage when a child is in a negative environment. But also there needs to be a move towards zero tolerance for criminal activity. We're not there nor do I think we are ready for that yet. Political will for a holistic approach is badly needed and urgent.

Definitely agree that regeneration should be done and believe universal access to education is hugely important but you captured my sentiments in bold.

I see the effects of regeneration and while they are positive they paint over the people who were responsible for a lot of the trouble and grottoness of the area. Still a huge litter problem, still open drug dealing, theft and vandalism of property, no respect for the gardai, defacing new and old facilities. We need to continue with the carrots but we need a bigger stick.

• Revisiting the range of consequences for non violent crime / non payment of fines including deductions at source.
• A stronger focus on rehabilitation in prisons with release being contingent on engagement with the education and skills program's during ones sentence.
• A proper multiplying effect in sentencing of repeat offenders
• A public justification of sentence length from judges, in language the public can understand.
• More prison space (cheap and temporary if necessary - like Tent city)
• Earlier and stronger intervention in disfunctional families where children are being neglected and parents are not engaging, possibly based some entitlement on the behaviour of ones kids too

mikom

Will this lad be at another concert within the next five years.......... watch this space....

Tea drinker

Well, you have a point, and one I agree with. It's a predictable path, guys graduating to more and more serious crimes finally ending in something heinous, like raping grannies.
It seems to me the judiciary should be raising hell if there isn't enough resources for them to do their job correctly. Instead there is silence, and a form of enforced criminality on the taxpayers instead of having a right to safe streets they paid for.
Look at FF legacy, 20 million for that flippin farm in north dublin as the spread for the new prison. How was that ever value? It's building in failure into the system EVEN BEFORE YOU BUILD IT.
Corruption has a price, parish politics has a price, and staying silent has a price.
Letting scum out on the street has a price in social unrest decreased quality of life (or no life) , raised home and health insurance cost, garda and judicial resources being re-used over and over. But yeah rather than ship these people to some cheap and cheerless prison they are housed in very expensive accomadation.

Chucky the tree

Giving a guy two years for smashing a barrier and then owning up to it would be ridiculous OP.

Chuck Stone

I believe that primary schools are uniquely placed to catch problem kids and work with them to try to prevent them from becoming a drain on every other service in the future.

Imagine every primary school with expert services, a SNA in every classroom, 20 kids per classroom total, a school based social worker, a nutritionist to educate the children on healthy eating/lifestyle etc.

Of course teachers would have to be rigorously vetted for performance - perhaps peer reviewed for the first 3 years or something to ensure a high level of competence.

I truly believe wider society would reap huge benefits if such a system were implemented.

fly_agaric

Chuck Stone wrote: »

I believe that primary schools are uniquely placed to catch problem kids and work with them to try to prevent them from becoming a drain on every other service in the future.

Imagine every primary school with expert services, a SNA in every classroom, 20 kids per classroom total, a school based social worker, a nutritionist to educate the children on healthy eating/lifestyle etc.

Of course teachers would have to be rigorously vetted for performance - perhaps peer reviewed for the first 3 years or something to ensure a high level of competence.

I truly believe wider society would reap huge benefits if such a system were implemented.

Even if Croke Park were shredded and teachers pay and conditions reduced, the state would probably still have to increase funding for the education system (edit: pre "Depression/Recession" public spend on education across EU as % of GDP) to covers costs of such a comprehensive welfare-state approach to education.

Irish people already believe they pay far too much tax and do not want to shell out for this.

laoch na mona

Something has to be done but what or how is difficult
the state has massive debt so the money isn't there
also actually tackling the problem is hard

i think we should have zero tolerance for repeat offenders and focus on preventing youths from getting involved in crime by getting them involved in the community

bear_hunter

troposphere wrote: »

I bet he will get less time than that guy that imported garlic without paying full tax

or the woman who took pocket change off adam clayton

Sunnyisland

bear_hunter wrote: »

or the woman who took pocket change off adam clayton

Originally Posted by troposphere
I bet he will get less time than that guy that imported garlic without paying full tax




Between them two cases they robbed nearly ten million euro, Its funny the way some people try to play down some crimes to castigate other just as serious ones.

ResearchWill

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Giving a guy two years for smashing a barrier and then owning up to it would be ridiculous OP.

I agree, also the OP does not say that the 22 previous are for road traffic offences, "The court heard he had 22 previous convictions related to "boy racing" but none for criminal damage." I assume boy racing is issues with tax, nct, insurance, licence and speeding. If we lock up everyone with "boy racer" convictions on the off chance they will do what it is alleged this guy did, then there would be no room in prison.

ArmaniJeanss

Laminations wrote: »

Raymond Donnan, 22, from Greenfort Crescent in Clondalkin, Dublin, faces five charges in connection with a stabbing at the Swedish House Mafia concert last Saturday night.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0709/man...-in-court.html

Denied bail

What hasn't been reported in the media, yet, is his laundry list of previous criminal convictions.
You can start with this from when he was 20 (which says he had 22 previous convictions then)

And it won't be reported either.
As he has been charged the case is now 'sub-judice', and in theory any jury (which incidentally anyone who reads this thread is now inelligible for) should know absolutely nothing about any priors.
So any media who reported it would be in contempt of court.

troposphere

realies wrote: »

Originally Posted by troposphere
I bet he will get less time than that guy that imported garlic without paying full tax




Between them two cases they robbed nearly ten million euro, Its funny the way some people try to play down some crimes to castigate other just as serious ones.

He was in the process of paying back the money and had already paid back €900,000 of the €1.6m he tried to evade. Ireland has a very funny justice system where they seem to come down hard on nonviolent offenders.

Monty Burnz

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Giving a guy two years for smashing a barrier and then owning up to it would be ridiculous OP.

He got no years for it though, and he's had time to clock up 22 convictions. How many times must you be charged to get 22 convictions? How many times must you be caught before you are charged? How many crimes must you commit before you are caught?

It's not unreasonable to suggest that for every conviction, there is on average 5 or 10 or 20 (choose a number) undetected crimes that the culprit gets away with.

22 convictions, even for minor offences, suggests somebody with no respect at all for the law, or - by extension - the rights of others.

Sunnyisland

troposphere wrote: »

He was in the process of paying back the money and had already paid back €900,000 of the €1.6m he tried to evade. Ireland has a very funny justice system where they seem to come down hard on nonviolent offenders.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=77513906


That topic has been done to death here already,Another Interesting read

Laminations

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Giving a guy two years for smashing a barrier and then owning up to it would be ridiculous OP.

Yes 2 years may be excessive. You make it sound like a minor collision though. It was definitely a case of dangerous driving with intent to cause harm. But he got no jail time. He got probation. On top of 22 previous convictions. And these convictions were road traffic related, which makes me wonder how he was still on the road.

Laminations

ResearchWill wrote: »

I agree, also the OP does not say that the 22 previous are for road traffic offences, "The court heard he had 22 previous convictions related to "boy racing" but none for criminal damage." I assume boy racing is issues with tax, nct, insurance, licence and speeding. If we lock up everyone with "boy racer" convictions on the off chance they will do what it is alleged this guy did, then there would be no room in prison.

The nature of the offences isn't the point of the thread, it's the recurrent iffending - by such a young age.

But 22 convictions for driving offences by the age of 20 is no mean feat. While I know plenty of people with points and warnings for speeding, parking offences and general bad driving, the only people I know with convictions were caught drunk-driving. Either way I'd imagine the offences would need to be pretty serious to warrant convictions. And this road rage incident was a serious offence. I think you're naive to suggest his 22 convictions relate to tax discs or late ncts.

It makes me wonder how a 20 year old can rack up AI many driving offences and not be out off the road by the courts or not be able to afford to drive due to insurance. Road traffic related offences is a typical area where the courts hand down impotent sentences. Breaching a driving ban is punished by another driving ban? 22 convictions at 20 is a red flag to me, the road rage incident was his 23rd conviction and he gets the probation act.

I would hazard a guess that in the last two years he has committed more offences and breached his probation, the current charges, if proven, are definitely a breach but I doubt he'll get a lengthy sentence. He isn't even being charged with attempted murder.

The point of the thread is to highlight, once again, how a violent crime was committed by someone who should've been dealt with by the courts on one of his many previous convictions.

Laminations

troposphere wrote: »

He was in the process of paying back the money and had already paid back €900,000 of the €1.6m he tried to evade. Ireland has a very funny justice system where they seem to come down hard on nonviolent offenders.

We need harsh penalties for white collar crime but I agree it is enraging when we don't have similarly harsh penalties for violent crime (where people can lose their life). What's also enraging is the inconsistency in the courts /DPP. Begleys sentence was harsh, Mick Wallaces prosecution (for a similar offence and larger amount which he'll never repay) is non-existent. But this is all for another thread.

gizmo555

troposphere wrote: »

He was in the process of paying back the money and had already paid back €900,000 of the €1.6m he tried to evade. Ireland has a very funny justice system where they seem to come down hard on nonviolent offenders.

Don't see the point of this argument at all. He was only paying it back because he was caught out deliberately falsifying customs declarations over an extended period. It was not a voluntary disclosure nor was it an isolated one-off offence.

If I go into my local supermarket and get caught shoplifting a bottle of vodka, should I be treated more leniently if I offer to return the one I stole last week?

ResearchWill

Laminations wrote: »

The nature of the offences isn't the point of the thread, it's the recurrent iffending - by such a young age.

But 22 convictions for driving offences by the age of 20 is no mean feat. While I know plenty of people with points and warnings for speeding, parking offences and general bad driving, the only people I know with convictions were caught drunk-driving. Either way I'd imagine the offences would need to be pretty serious to warrant convictions. And this road rage incident was a serious offence. I think you're naive to suggest his 22 convictions relate to tax discs or late ncts.

It makes me wonder how a 20 year old can rack up AI many driving offences and not be out off the road by the courts or not be able to afford to drive due to insurance. Road traffic related offences is a typical area where the courts hand down impotent sentences. Breaching a driving ban is punished by another driving ban? 22 convictions at 20 is a red flag to me, the road rage incident was his 23rd conviction and he gets the probation act.

I would hazard a guess that in the last two years he has committed more offences and breached his probation, the current charges, if proven, are definitely a breach but I doubt he'll get a lengthy sentence. He isn't even being charged with attempted murder.

The point of the thread is to highlight, once again, how a violent crime was committed by someone who should've been dealt with by the courts on one of his many previous convictions.

It is very easy to pick up multiple driving offences, say a guy is stopped for speeding, no seat belt, non production on demand licence, non production of licence in 10 days, non production in 10 days insurance, non display of tax. While he has insurance and tax and licence he has still got 7 convictions there. Add a conviction for tinted windows and loud exhaust and no NCT in one court sitting he could get 10 convictions, which could have all happened in the one court sitting. I have even seen RTA convictions for being drunk in charge of an animal drawn vehicle.

I have seen many a usually law abiding citizen with a few RTA convictions from the one event.

Laminations

ResearchWill wrote: »

It is very easy to pick up multiple driving offences, say a guy is stopped for speeding, no seat belt, non production on demand licence, non production of licence in 10 days, non production in 10 days insurance, non display of tax. While he has insurance and tax and licence he has still got 7 convictions there. Add a conviction for tinted windows and loud exhaust and no NCT in one court sitting he could get 10 convictions, which could have all happened in the one court sitting.

Is there a difference between penalty points and a conviction? So after one such unlucky court sitting like this, you are implying that poor Ray Donnan, then went out and did it all again? You might think all of those minor but it shows to me complete disregard for the law and not learning ones lesson. How many convictions do you have to rack up to have your licence withdrawn?

I have even seen RTA convictions for being drunk in charge of an animal drawn vehicle.

Rightly so, I've just spent over 100 euros getting my car through the NCT because of a tear in a CV boot, and leaving the centre I see a guy sat on a plank being pulled by a horse, no tax, no insurance, no safety tests, it doesn't even have a CV boot to tear. Road worthy vehicles should apply to every road user, and being drunk on a road with a horse is pretty dangerous.

I have seen many a usually law abiding citizen with a few RTA convictions from the one event.

Do you want to wager that in the two years since this road rage incident, that Donnan has been law abiding? right up until he bottled and stabbed numerous people?

22 convictions means you can't claim to be 'a usually law abiding citizen'

ResearchWill

Laminations wrote: »

Is there a difference between penalty points and a conviction? So after one such unlucky court sitting like this, you are implying that poor Ray Donnan, then went out and did it all again? You might think all of those minor but it shows to me complete disregard for the law and not learning ones lesson. How many convictions do you have to rack up to have your licence withdrawn?



Rightly so, I've just spent over 100 euros getting my car through the NCT because of a tear in a CV boot, and leaving the centre I see a guy sat on a plank being pulled by a horse, no tax, no insurance, no safety tests, it doesn't even have a CV boot to tear. Road worthy vehicles should apply to every road user, and being drunk on a road with a horse is pretty dangerous.



Do you want to wager that in the two years since this road rage incident, that Donnan has been law abiding? right up until he bottled and stabbed numerous people?

22 convictions means you can't claim to be 'a usually law abiding citizen'

I have avoided and will continue to avoid comment on a person who currently the subject of a serious criminal investigation as to comment on such matters could possible lead to serious issues.

I have kept my comments to the OP's contention that 22 previous for RTA offences in some way should warn the criminal justice system about a person. I have pointed out that it is easy if you break the law to get multiple minor convictions for RTA offences.

BTW in relation to any of the incidents that happened over the weekend no one has been convicted as yet.

Monty Burnz

ResearchWill wrote: »

I have kept my comments to the OP's contention that 22 previous for RTA offences in some way should warn the criminal justice system about a person. I have pointed out that it is easy if you break the law multiple minor convictions for RTA offences.

Driving without insurance, or dangerous driving are not minor issues though. And having so many convictions shows complete contempt for the courts, the rule of law, and the rights of others.

Laminations

ResearchWill wrote: »

I have kept my comments to the OP's contention that 22 previous for RTA offences in some way should warn the criminal justice system about a person. I have pointed out that it is easy if you break the law to get multiple minor convictions for RTA offences.

Ok so we'll not talk about a specific case.

So it is not alarming that a 20 yr old racks up 22 RTA convictions? Can you explain the difference between penalty points and a conviction as most people I know with driving offences never went to court and got convictions, they were dealt with through penalty points. Even with your bizarrely unlucky hypothetical case of racking up 10 convictions all in one go, you'd need to be that utterly stupid twice to make it to 22.

And how many convictions does it take to get a ban?

ResearchWill

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Driving without insurance, or dangerous driving are not minor issues though. And having so many convictions shows complete contempt for the courts, the rule of law, and the rights of others.

Can you point to your source that the convictions are for no insurance or dangerous driving.

My post related to convictions for non production etc. if a I get stopped tonight and am asked to produce in ten days my licence and insurance but I forget, I have both but I can be convicted of 3 separate offences 1 non production on demand licence, 2 non production in 10 days licence and 3 non production of insurance in 10 days.

Monty Burnz

ResearchWill wrote: »

Can you point to your source that the convictions are for no insurance or dangerous driving.

My post related to convictions for non production etc. if a I get stopped tonight and am asked to produce in ten days my licence and insurance but I forget, I have both but I can be convicted of 3 separate offences 1 non production on demand licence, 2 non production in 10 days licence and 3 non production of insurance in 10 days.

I have as much reason to think that 'boy racer offences' refers to dangerous driving as you do to believe it relates to not producing a licence. I'm not demanding you provide evidence for your speculation, but for some reason you feel you should demand it of me?

Laminations

Driving from 17 at the earliest, penalty points stay on your licence for 3 years. With 22 convictions for 'boy racer' offences (a description I imagine his solicitor gave to downplay their seriousness) he should have been banned.

From your hypothetical

guy is stopped for speeding, 2-4 points
no seat belt, 4 penalty points
non production on demand licence,
non production of licence in 10 days,
non production in 10 days insurance, 5 penalty points
non display of tax.
conviction for tinted windows
loud exhaust
no NCT 5 penalty points

source

So just those ones rack up 18 points (automatic ban at 12 points) - how was he driving at the time of the road rage incident? what was the consequence of this incident for his licence?

Are you arguing that breaches of driving bans are not dealt with by a further driving ban? essentially the judge saying 'we'll try this again'

Laminations

ResearchWill wrote: »

Can you point to your source that the convictions are for no insurance or dangerous driving.

My post related to convictions for non production etc. if a I get stopped tonight and am asked to produce in ten days my licence and insurance but I forget, I have both but I can be convicted of 3 separate offences 1 non production on demand licence, 2 non production in 10 days licence and 3 non production of insurance in 10 days.

Ah right, so he just had to 'forget' 7 times to rack up 22 convictions. I think your hypothetical is stretching credulity

ResearchWill

Laminations wrote: »

Ok so we'll not talk about a specific case.

So it is not alarming that a 20 yr old racks up 22 RTA convictions? Can you explain the difference between penalty points and a conviction as most people I know with driving offences never went to court and got convictions, they were dealt with through penalty points. Even with your bizarrely unlucky hypothetical case of racking up 10 convictions all in one go, you'd need to be that utterly stupid twice to make it to 22.

And how many convictions does it take to get a ban?

There is a separate DC in Dublin that only deals with road traffic cases there are in cork days in the DC that only deal with road traffic many issues under the road traffic acts only the court system can deal with. Also if a person does not accept penalty points then summons issues. I have seen many cases of people with multiple convictions in the DC for a single event road traffic incident. My only point is when we read in a paper 20 or 30 previous for road traffic offence we do not know what they are for. To take the leap that a person with a certain number of what may be minor road traffic offences, will someday commit a serious crime just does not add up.

In relation to a ban it is open to the court to impose a ban for any RTA offence and other than mandatory bans, there is no minimum mandatory once you clock up x number of convictions no matter what for, except of course if penalty points are given and the person hits 12.

ResearchWill

Laminations wrote: »

Driving from 17 at the earliest, penalty points stay on your licence for 3 years. With 22 convictions for 'boy racer' offences (a description I imagine his solicitor gave to downplay their seriousness) he should have been banned.

From your hypothetical

guy is stopped for speeding, 2-4 points
no seat belt, 4 penalty points
non production on demand licence,
non production of licence in 10 days,
non production in 10 days insurance, 5 penalty points
non display of tax.
conviction for tinted windows
loud exhaust
no NCT 5 penalty points

source

So just those ones rack up 18 points (automatic ban at 12 points) - how was he driving at the time of the road rage incident? what was the consequence of this incident for his licence?

Are you arguing that breaches of driving bans are not dealt with by a further driving ban? essentially the judge saying 'we'll try this again'

Like you I do not know what this guy has previous for, I gave an example of how a one stop could lead to multiple convictions. BTW it's not 5 points for failure to produce insurance. I am only dealing with the OP's issue that the criminal justice system failed because a guy with 22 previous which must not have led to a ban even though those offences happened in a 3 year period and he was still driving, so either very minor and or the person had not hit 12 points. Leading to the conclusion that the offences are very trival.

ResearchWill

Laminations wrote: »

Ah right, so he just had to 'forget' 7 times to rack up 22 convictions. I think your hypothetical is stretching credulity

Fact a person aged 20 with 22 previous who is not banned then those convictions are very minor or did not attract 12 points, so no no insurance no dangerous driving in fact the paper described the convictions as "boy racer" convictions sounds to me like incorrect number plates, loud exhaust etc. but you see I don't know exactly but I do know that after 22 convictions he was not banned so I can guess very minor.

Laminations

ResearchWill wrote: »

There is a separate DC in Dublin that only deals with road traffic cases there are in cork days in the DC that only deal with road traffic many issues under the road traffic acts only the court system can deal with. Also if a person does not accept penalty points then summons issues. I have seen many cases of people with multiple convictions in the DC for a single event road traffic incident. My only point is when we read in a paper 20 or 30 previous for road traffic offence we do not know what they are for. To take the leap that a person with a certain number of what may be minor road traffic offences, will someday commit a serious crime just does not add up.

In relation to a ban it is open to the court to impose a ban for any RTA offence and other than mandatory bans, there is no minimum mandatory once you clock up x number of convictions no matter what for, except of course if penalty points are given and the person hits 12.

The hypothetical convictions you listed come with penalty points. I've added them up and it results in a ban. To avoid this you suggest an even more bizarre hypothetical where a fella just fails to produce documents 7 times, fails to pay fines or accept points and is summoned to court where he is convicted??

Grand. So you don't think it alarming that a 20 year old clocks up 22 convictions for 'boy racer' offences, and then gets probation for chasing a man down through a shopping centre car park smashing through pedestrian barriers. No ban. No jail time. Just probation with that record. Fine. We'll disagree.

Monty Burnz

ResearchWill wrote: »

Fact a person aged 20 with 22 previous who is not banned then those convictions are very minor or did not attract 12 points, so no no insurance no dangerous driving in fact the paper described the convictions as "boy racer" convictions sounds to me like incorrect number plates, loud exhaust etc. but you see I don't know exactly but I do know that after 22 convictions he was not banned so I can guess very minor.

Perhaps some of the convictions were for driving while banned?

ResearchWill

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I have as much reason to think that 'boy racer offences' refers to dangerous driving as you do to believe it relates to not producing a licence. I'm not demanding you provide evidence for your speculation, but for some reason you feel you should demand it of me?

Dangerous driving carries a ban, he was not banned. The reason I can demand it of you is that this thread is your post you have made a statement that the criminal justice system has blood on its hands because of 22 previous with no idea what the previous was. You made the statement you must back it up.

Laminations

ResearchWill wrote: »

but you see I don't know exactly but I do know that after 22 convictions he was not banned so I can guess very minor.

We enforce bans with further bans, people can flout the law, ignore their bans, and get more chances from the fumbling mess of a judiciary

source
The court was told it was her second drink-driving incident within a few months as she was already banned for three years for an offence outside Tuam in November 2010.

Or disregard bail conditions? sure what harm

source 30/5/12

A 16-YEAR-OLD Dublin boy, who allegedly attacked an elderly man with a bottle during the course of two house burglaries within the space of 30 minutes, has been released on bail.
The teenager has been charged with two counts of burglary at the Navan Road in Cabra, in north Dublin, in the early hours of Sunday morning. He was remanded in custody by the Dublin Children's Court the following day.
Judge Ryan granted bail with several conditions.
The teenager was told that he had to obey a 10pm to 8am curfew, sign on three days a week at his local garda station and not have any contact with the burglary victims.
He was also told that he must abstain from alcohol and was remanded on bail to appear again in July. Directions from the DPP need to be obtained to determine whether his case should stay in the juvenile court or instead be sent forward to the Circuit Court.

source 7/6/12
However two days after getting bail he was charged for being intoxicated to such an extent he was a danger to himself and others, engaging in a breach of the peace and resisting arrest at East Sussex Street, in Dublin 2.

She released him saying the bail conditions remained in force and he also had to engage with drug abuse services. The judge also agreed to ban him from the D1, D2, D8 and D7 areas except at times when he has to come to court.
The boy, who has not yet entered pleas to any of the charges, was warned that he would lose his bail and stay in custody for a long period if he broke the conditions again.

ResearchWill

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Perhaps some of the convictions were for driving while banned?

The offence in the supermarket was criminal damage he was not charged with anything else a ban while driving banned would be at least two years in fact a third offence while banned would lead to jail time.

Laminations

ResearchWill wrote: »

you have made a statement that the criminal justice system has blood on its hands because of 22 previous with no idea what the previous was. You made the statement you must back it up.

Well I made the thread and it isn't just based on this case, it is obvuious that judges make poor decisions that put society at risk. People get robbed, assaulted and murdered because judges err on the side of protecting the rights of criminals over the rights of society. They are afraid of appeals and so drop what should be attempted murder and murder charges down to manslaughter and assault causing harm.

IN RECENT weeks two High Court judges have implicitly criticised the Court of Criminal Appeal, suggesting they were inhibited from imposing the sentences they thought appropriate by its jurisprudence

source

ResearchWill

Laminations wrote: »

We enforce bans with further bans, people can flout the law, ignore their bans, and get more chances from the fumbling mess of a judiciary

source
The court was told it was her second drink-driving incident within a few months as she was already banned for three years for an offence outside Tuam in November 2010.

Or disregard bail conditions? sure what harm

source 30/5/12

A 16-YEAR-OLD Dublin boy, who allegedly attacked an elderly man with a bottle during the course of two house burglaries within the space of 30 minutes, has been released on bail.
The teenager has been charged with two counts of burglary at the Navan Road in Cabra, in north Dublin, in the early hours of Sunday morning. He was remanded in custody by the Dublin Children's Court the following day.
Judge Ryan granted bail with several conditions.
The teenager was told that he had to obey a 10pm to 8am curfew, sign on three days a week at his local garda station and not have any contact with the burglary victims.
He was also told that he must abstain from alcohol and was remanded on bail to appear again in July. Directions from the DPP need to be obtained to determine whether his case should stay in the juvenile court or instead be sent forward to the Circuit Court.

source 7/6/12
However two days after getting bail he was charged for being intoxicated to such an extent he was a danger to himself and others, engaging in a breach of the peace and resisting arrest at East Sussex Street, in Dublin 2.

She released him saying the bail conditions remained in force and he also had to engage with drug abuse services. The judge also agreed to ban him from the D1, D2, D8 and D7 areas except at times when he has to come to court.
The boy, who has not yet entered pleas to any of the charges, was warned that he would lose his bail and stay in custody for a long period if he broke the conditions again.

1 dd ban 2nd dd ban third usually gets 6 months inside.

If you want this to be about under funding of prison and probation services and social workers I agree with you 100%. But how are previous for burglary and serious alcohol and drug abuse by a 16 year old related to minor road traffic offences and criminal damage where POA was applied.

ResearchWill

Laminations wrote: »

Well I made the thread and it isn't just based on this case, it is obvuious that judges make poor decisions that put society at risk. People get robbed, assaulted and murdered because judges err on the side of protecting the rights of criminals over the rights of society. They are afraid of appeals and so drop what should be attempted murder and murder charges down to manslaughter and assault causing harm.



source

A judge can not drop murder to manslaughter only the DPP can make that decision or a jury can make that finding. A judge on indictment makes no finding of guilt or otherwise except to refuse to put a matter to the jury if there is no evidence.

Yes judges do give people chances and the vast majority take those chances, some don't they end up in prison.

Have you every sat in a district court, or a circuit court criminal sentencing day, if not do and see what actually happens not only what is reported.

Laminations

http://www.thejournal.ie/forty-murders-committed-by-criminals-out-on-bail-123393-Apr2011

THERE HAVE BEEN 40 murders carried out in Ireland by criminals out on bail, new figures from the Central Statistics Office reveal.
The Irish Daily Mail reports today that these murders all took place during the past five years.
The figures also show that the criminals on bail also made 162 death threats and that 8,033 non-aggravated and 233 aggravated burglaries were committed by people out on bail between the start of 2006 and the end of 2010.
There were also 97 rapes and sexual offences committed by people freed by the courts during the same five years.

Now some judge deemed these people not to be a threat to society and released them back onto the streets - those murders, assaults, rapes are on the hands of those judges. We've seen the scandal recently of cardinals making terrible decisions in the past to move paedophile priests away from victims and more protecting the priests than the victims.


Just as Brady 'failed to fulfil his duty as a human being' and protect further victims, the judges in this country release violent and sexual threats back onto the streets.They really should be accountable for their mistakes

Laminations

ResearchWill wrote: »

1 dd ban 2nd dd ban third usually gets 6 months inside.

If you want this to be about under funding of prison and probation services and social workers I agree with you 100%. But how are previous for burglary and serious alcohol and drug abuse by a 16 year old related to minor road traffic offences and criminal damage where POA was applied.

The DPP is part of the Irish Criminal Justice System and I'd include that office as having blood on their hands. Judges impose sentences they aren't comfortable with to avoid appeals. Maybe appeals courts should focus more on the rights of the victims

Laminations

ResearchWill wrote: »

Yes judges do give people chances and the vast majority take those chances, some don't they end up in prison.

Some don't and end up creating more victims. If you have a chance to stop somebody from hurting more people and you give them a chance instead to rack up more crimes, you have enabled that criminal.

christmas2012

My opinion on the judges who released the troublesome boy as above,should have to live a week on the street where he lives,and get some sleepless nights and up for work the next day..

Getting back to the original topic,alan shatter has recently devised an early release programme for prisoners,due to overcrowding,you know what the problem is?prisons arent PROFITABLE..Well..make them profitable,by having prisoners work for free,they get no money just whatever food they get,thats it!

Overcrowding is a huge issue for the system and needs urgent addressing so judges aren't making daft rulings

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/an...l-2218900.html

Quote:
A third of prisoners who go into Mountjoy are currently released back on to streets due to chronic overcrowding

Laminations

ResearchWill wrote: »

Have you every sat in a district court, or a circuit court criminal sentencing day, if not do and see what actually happens not only what is reported.

Why would I need to see what happens? Does the judge give them some amazing lecture that makes it very unlikely they'll reoffend before he releases them on bail (often against the wishes of the Gardai) after which they go on a crime spree because concurrent sentences are given out like candy? What happens in court that makes it a justice system and not a game of law?

"IT'S the Courts of Criminal Law. It's a game played out by two teams, and our children are the ones who lose. Justice never wins."

source

ResearchWill

Laminations wrote: »

http://www.thejournal.ie/forty-murders-committed-by-criminals-out-on-bail-123393-Apr2011




Now some judge deemed these people not to be a threat to society and released them back onto the streets - those murders, assaults, rapes are on the hands of those judges. We've seen the scandal recently of cardinals making terrible decisions in the past to move paedophile priests away from victims and more protecting the priests than the victims.


Just as Brady 'failed to fulfil his duty as a human being' and protect further victims, the judges in this country release violent and sexual threats back onto the streets.They really should be accountable for their mistakes

A judge will refuse bail if given the relevant information, if everyone currently before the courts was refused bail we would need thousands of extra prison places. If a person is a flight risk or there is a risk of witness intimidation or committing other offences then bail can be refused but evidence of that must be put before the judge.

ResearchWill

christmas2012 wrote: »

My opinion on the judges who released the troublesome boy as above,should have to live a week on the street where he lives,and get some sleepless nights and up for work the next day..

Getting back to the original topic,alan shatter has recently devised an early release programme for prisoners,due to overcrowding,you know what the problem is?prisons arent PROFITABLE..Well..make them profitable,by having prisoners work for free,they get no money just whatever food they get,thats it!

The problem is there is only one place to lock up that boy either on remand or custody, the problem is that place is full, the judge knows that if he puts a remand in there then a custody case has to be given early release. We have 3 places for people under 16 and only one place for boys 16 to 21. It's a catch 22 for the judge lock up this guy and another gets out early either one of which might offend.

While your idea of making prisoners work is good, that has led in the US to 1 in every 100 adults in custody, huge numbers of small electrical appliances are made in US prisons at slave labour rates, same for military helmets and other military gear.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/23/world/americas/23iht-23prison.12253738.html?pagewanted=all

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=8289

An interesting quote from the second link

". Jailing persons convicted of non-violent crimes, and long prison sentences for possession of microscopic quantities of illegal drugs. Federal law stipulates five years' imprisonment without possibility of parole for possession of 5 grams of crack or 3.5 ounces of heroin, and 10 years for possession of less than 2 ounces of rock-cocaine or crack. A sentence of 5 years for cocaine powder requires possession of 500 grams - 100 times more than the quantity of rock cocaine for the same sentence. Most of those who use cocaine powder are white, middle-class or rich people, while mostly Blacks and Latinos use rock cocaine. In Texas, a person may be sentenced for up to two years' imprisonment for possessing 4 ounces of marijuana. Here in New York, the 1973 Nelson Rockefeller anti-drug law provides for a mandatory prison sentence of 15 years to life for possession of 4 ounces of any illegal drug."

ResearchWill

Laminations wrote: »

Why would I need to see what happens? Does the judge give them some amazing lecture that makes it very unlikely they'll reoffend before he releases them on bail (often against the wishes of the Gardai) after which they go on a crime spree because concurrent sentences are given out like candy? What happens in court that makes it a justice system and not a game of law?


source

Maybe because it's better to get your information from where it actually happens, rather than second hand.

A judge does not give a lecture when bail is granted the accused is guilty of nothing at that stage, he enters and leaves the court an innocent man, he is only guilty when such a finding is made. I have never seen bail granted where the Gardai have made serious objections, in the DC.