Phil Hogan Got Cut-Price Mortgage

Lawrence1895

ilovesleep wrote: »

FG has absolutely no attention of digging us out from the hole that FF has left us in.

I was badly want that girly monkey and his gang out.

FF threw the country into the coffin, FG are putting the lid on top

noodler

philologos wrote: »

Who else gets an interest free mortgage? - Don't you think such liberal lending could have played a part in the financial crisis at all?

During the Celtic Tiger?

Plenty of people!

People with less means than Phil Hogan as well.

Its funny some people want to play the banks alone when it is the average Joe but if a well-to-do politician happened to get preferential terms then there is uproar.

Such liberal lending of course played a huge part in the crisis but at least Hogan was able to pay back his debts, albeit by selling the house.

noodler

hondasam wrote: »

I'm not happy he is asking me to sign up for a charge when I have no idea what it will cost me.
He knew what he was signing when he bought the villa.

Nobody is happy about the Charge but the voters knew it was necessary and they still voted for FG.

K-9 wrote: »

If you've no problem with politicians like McCreevey in a cosey club with bankers like Fingleton, probably no issue.

Hyperbole.

K-9 wrote: »

My problem is Burton and Varadkar criticising McCreevey for this and silence on this issue so far. I'd expect some condemnation in the next couple of days. I hate double standards like that. The Government parties aren't the only ones at it either, Higgins and his free envelopes spring to mind.

For the love of God - there might be more revelations to come but if getting an interest-free mortgage (which he did pay back in full apparently) is the height of it then I wouldn't exactly call it corruption!

If I had had the same means as him during the boom, sufficient collateral etc then with the way the banks were ledning it would have been entirely possible to get without requiring outright corruption.

God, I am sounding like a right Blueshirt here.

paddy147

Did FG tell everyone that there would be a household charge and house tax though,when they were all looking for the publics votes??????

I dont think so,so trying to use that excuse wont wash here.

Biggins

...if getting an interest-free mortgage (which he did pay back in full apparently) is the height of it then I wouldn't exactly call it corruption!

If thats all - but then what if its was given in quiet understanding of things to come in the then times or in the future to come?

Certainly questions need to be asked!
...And should we allow our politicians be open to these temptations - maybe so that those giving them could at another date use it against them if they don't get their later way?

Ghandee

Bad week for FG.

Hogan in cut price mortgage scandal.

Then James Reilly defaults on 1.9million debt.


This won't end well.

K-9

ilovesleep wrote: »

Michael D Higgins said it last year before he retired from his seat, said that we need a new republic.

Many of the things that we see that we are un-happy about and are utterly insane like over inflated saleries, pensions, large bonuses, expenses, claims, nice working conditions, double pensions, even triple pensions, even going over the pay cap of advisors
- all these people have their hands tied with a contract. It's a form of greed. If their contracts are touched, all hell will break loose. But these contracts for the most part were done when the country was built on quicksand. It's collapsed now and we just can't afford it.

We need to scrap the constitution and rebuild from the start. Add in white collar crimes into the constitution (because FG won't do it).
A 2nd republic.
Why isn't this being done.

You are chatting a root and branch reform of Irish society. I'll tell you one thing, ULA and SF will not give anybody that going on their policies.

I'm all for radical PS reform, we'd also need SW reform (and I'm no Welfare basher), a whole new order on tenders.

That would be the Government expenditure side looked at. Hospital consultants, doctors, chemists, Accountancy & Solicitor fees, that's just tipping at the tip og the iceberg when it comes to the Private Sector. Petrol and drink comglomerates would be 2 obvious sectors outside it.

noodler wrote: »

Nobody is happy about the Charge but the voters knew it was necessary and they still voted for FG.





Hyperbole.



For the love of God - there might be more revelations to come but if getting an interest-free mortgage (which he did pay back in full apparently) is the height of it then I wouldn't exactly call it corruption!

If I had had the same means as him during the boom, sufficient collateral etc then with the way the banks were ledning it would have been entirely possible to get without requiring outright corruption.

God, I am sounding like a right Blueshirt here.

Well if you seen nothing wrong with McCreevey at least you are consistent!

What I find wrong is Fingleton taking politicians, builders and others in the know into his office and giving preferential terms, ignoring normal checks on loans and giving them to those he knew. You say nothing wrong went on but how do you know? Same as I can't say something definitely wrong happened.

Corruption has moved on, the brown envelope has gone unless somebody is dumb enough to use it. What we have is the promise of some directorship when a minister retires or a nod, nod, you scratch my back approach. The potential for corruption is still huge and also far harder to prove.

I was a customer of INBS and I can tell you they didn't tell me of offers like this. This is a Building Society that screwed customers in the late 90's and early 00's, charging them huge penalties when they fell into arrears, making it near impossible to catch up. There was a reason they were extremely profitable and the lowest cost base out there.

Many INBS members wanted them to go public 10 years ago. Fingleton delayed to get friendly legislation passed and low and behold it was passed.

ArmaniJeanss

philologos wrote: »

Who else gets an interest free mortgage? - Don't you think such liberal lending could have played a part in the financial crisis at all?

Fairly sure it was an interest-only mortgage, not an interest free mortgage.
Huge difference really - the full capital plus interest still has to be eventually paid on an interest-only loan.

They truely weren't that unusual a concept, a huge amount of second homes and investment properties mortgage were on this basis.

However 10 years of interest-only, and interest-only on a primary residence (if thats what the D4 home was) do seem quite unusual.

Ghandee

I'm just wondering if James Reilly will have to resign now?

As he's defaulted on a 1.9 million euro debt, can we assume he may have to declare bankruptcy ?

If he does he can no longer serve in the dail.

Ironic really as FG's Policy was 'we do not default on our debts'

ArtSmart

noodler wrote: »

For the love of God - there might be more revelations to come but if getting an interest-free mortgage (which he did pay back in full apparently) is the height of it then I wouldn't exactly call it corruption!

If I had had the same means as him during the boom, sufficient collateral etc then with the way the banks were ledning it would have been entirely possible to get without requiring outright corruption.

Well the thing is this. On what basis does a bank lend half a mil to someone already holding a mortgage. For investment purposes the loan rate was 40% of price, or thereabout - though it may have increased.

question is increased to what amt, AND why interest only? interest only for an investment property?


the release of equity for the Portugal purchase might be valid - but again, not on an interest only basis.

So assuming the indo is correct about the loan conditions, this is dodgy, with a capital D .

paddy147

Ghandee wrote: »

I'm just wondering if James Reilly will have to resign now?

As he's defaulted on a 1.9 million euro debt, can we assume he may have to declare bankruptcy ?

If he does he can no longer serve in the dail.

Ironic really as FG's Policy was 'we do not default on our debts'

Yeah,Endas "dail speech" might just come back to haunt him and his ministers allright.:D

ArtSmart

Ghandee wrote: »

I'm just wondering if James Reilly will have to resign now?

As he's defaulted on a 1.9 million euro debt, can we assume he may have to declare bankruptcy ?

If he does he can no longer serve in the dail.

Ironic really as FG's Policy was 'we do not default on our debts'

where's the link for Reilly?

Ghandee

ArtSmart wrote: »

where's the link for Reilly?

None yet, was shown on Vincent Browne though, will be headlines in the indo in the morning apparently.

ArmaniJeanss

ilovesleep wrote: »

Michael D Higgins said it last year before he retired from his seat, said that we need a new republic.

Many of the things that we see that we are un-happy about and are utterly insane like over inflated saleries, pensions, large bonuses, expenses, claims, nice working conditions, double pensions, even triple pensions, even going over the pay cap of advisors
- all these people have their hands tied with a contract. It's a form of greed. If their contracts are touched, all hell will break loose. But these contracts for the most part were done when the country was built on quicksand. It's collapsed now and we just can't afford it.

We need to scrap the constitution and rebuild from the start. Add in white collar crimes into the constitution (because FG won't do it).
A 2nd republic.
Why isn't this being done.

Because its not actually what people want, despite what the average After Hours poll would suggest come election or referendum time.

People don't want radical change - there was enough SP/ULA/SF/radical Indo candidates in the last election to give them a majority in the Dail if people wanted major change.

People are content to muddy along with an ever so slightly left/right of centre non-threatening coalition.

ArtSmart

Ghandee wrote: »

None yet, was shown on Vincent Browne though, will be headlines in the indo in the morning apparently.

Well until then, no real point speculating. Cant see Phil surviving this, if the indo is correct on the % only for 10 yrs thingy

paddy147

ArtSmart wrote: »

Well until then, no real point speculating. Cant see Phil surviving this, if the indo is correct on the % only for 10 yrs thingy

Can you imagine the final goodbye chat between Hogan and Enda.

Something like this perhaps??:D

K-9

Ghandee wrote: »

None yet, was shown on Vincent Browne though, will be headlines in the indo in the morning apparently.

He owns the big mansion and opens it to get the tax incentives. Look forward to reading that.

Zebra3

Ghandee wrote: »

Bad week for FG.

Hogan in cut price mortgage scandal.

Then James Reilly defaults on 1.9million debt.


This won't end well.

I'd like to think that way, but they just don't really give a toss, do they?

Fat pensions for the rest of their life. They'll be all right. :mad:

philologos

noodler wrote: »

During the Celtic Tiger?

Plenty of people!

People with less means than Phil Hogan as well.

Its funny some people want to play the banks alone when it is the average Joe but if a well-to-do politician happened to get preferential terms then there is uproar.

Such liberal lending of course played a huge part in the crisis but at least Hogan was able to pay back his debts, albeit by selling the house.

I'm really doubting that many got an entirely interest free mortgage. Banks operate on capitalist principles, I.E - How are you ever going to make a profit from an interest free mortgage?

Why is it one standard for a few, and another standard for the weakest in society?

wexie

ArtSmart wrote: »

where's the link for Reilly?

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/reilly-left-redfaced-as-hes-named-on-debtdefault-list-3165020.html

noodler

philologos wrote: »

I'm really doubting that many got an entirely interest free mortgage. Banks operate on capitalist principles, I.E - How are you ever going to make a profit from an interest free mortgage?

I think you might be confusing interest-only with interest-free.

An interest-only loan means you just pay the interest for the first number of years. You still owe the principle - it is simply deferred.

ArtSmart

wexie wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/reilly-left-redfaced-as-hes-named-on-debtdefault-list-3165020.html

yeah, it's an old story, done back in Feb.

Not sure where the Indo is going with these revelations. I mean, it could just be genuine good journalism (cough), but if it's the standard Dr Tony led attack, I wonder what his objective is? A SF led govt??? (He does know FF are dead and buried, yes?)

Weird.

ilovesleep

So what does Enda Kenny have to say today about one of his FG ministers getting special loans from Fingalton?

Does Enda have anything to say why there hasn't been any enquiry into the bank gaurantee of 2008? Come on! Brian Cowen playing golf with seanie fitz in july 2008 before the bank guarantee in which anglo was included - a bank for property speculators. Dodgy as fcuk and still nothing.

conorhal

ilovesleep wrote: »

Michael D Higgins said it last year before he retired from his seat, said that we need a new republic.

Many of the things that we see that we are un-happy about and are utterly insane like over inflated saleries, pensions, large bonuses, expenses, claims, nice working conditions, double pensions, even triple pensions, even going over the pay cap of advisors
- all these people have their hands tied with a contract. It's a form of greed. If their contracts are touched, all hell will break loose. But these contracts for the most part were done when the country was built on quicksand. It's collapsed now and we just can't afford it.

We need to scrap the constitution and rebuild from the start. Add in white collar crimes into the constitution (because FG won't do it).
A 2nd republic.
Why isn't this being done.

Eh.. it is being done.
Right now the constitutional commission is busy drafting Bunreacht na hÉireann 2.0 with the help of useful submissions from every quango and special interest group in the nation.

This horrifies me more then words can express.

You may want a new constitution, but do you trust it's drafting to the mental midgets that couldn't even draught an amendment to the current constitution to allow them to hold an investigation into the banking sector? One that they couldn#t even get the electorate to vote for?

Do you trust our vision of the future to the visionless, spineless and frankly mediocre and useless morons in power at the moment?

Personally I'd settle for the laws we currently have being enforced and go from there

Sleepy

Trying to link the management fees dispute he's involved with to the household charge is facile nonsense that does the argument against property taxation no good tbh. I'm personally in favour of a property tax but if you want to argue against the household charge at least stick to factual arguments such as it's regressive nature etc.

If Hogan has received beneficial terms on his mortgage arrangements with the bank, it's a sacking matter. Never mind resigning, accepting financial favours when holding political office is completely unacceptable. He should be sacked and stripped of his pension entitlements if this is proven to be the case.

Red_Wake

Sleepy wrote: »

Trying to link the management fees dispute he's involved with to the household charge is facile nonsense that does the argument against property taxation no good tbh. I'm personally in favour of a property tax but if you want to argue against the household charge at least stick to factual arguments such as it's regressive nature etc.

If Hogan has received beneficial terms on his mortgage arrangements with the bank, it's a sacking matter. Never mind resigning, accepting financial favours when holding political office is completely unacceptable. He should be sacked and stripped of his pension entitlements if this is proven to be the case.

Does it say when he got the mortgage off the bank? I believe it mentions it was for a house he bought in 2008 - long before he was a minister.

More pertinently, can it be linked to any political decisions?

Biggins

Red_Wake wrote: »

Does it say when he got the mortgage off the bank? I believe it mentions it was for a house he bought in 2008 - long before he was a minister.

More pertinently, can it be linked to any political decisions?

Hogan first became involved in politics at a local level as a member of Kilkenny County Council from 1982 to 2003. He was Chairman of the council in 1985–1986 and 1989–1990. He was a member of the South-Eastern Health Board from 1991–1999.

Following his failure to win a seat at the 1987 general election, Hogan was subsequently elected to Seanad Éireann by the Industrial and Commercial Panel, serving between 1987 and 1989. During this time Hogan acted as Fine Gael spokesman on Justice and Industry and Commerce in the upper house of the Oireachtas. At the 1989 general election Hogan was elected to Dáil Éireann for the first time and has retained his seat ever since.[3] He has held a number of Opposition Front Bench positions including spokesperson on the Food Industry (1989–1991), Consumer Affairs (1991–1993), Regional Affairs and European Development (1993–1994).

Between December 1994 and February 1995 Hogan served as Minister of State at the Department of Finance with special responsibility for the Office of Public Works. Hogan was forced to resign when a staff member sent out Budget details to a journalist before it was announced. Following his resignation from this post he became Chairman of the Fine Gael parliamentary party, a position he held until 2001. Hogan then became Director of Organisation of Fine Gael in the run-up to the 2002 general election.

When Michael Noonan resigned as leader of Fine Gael after the party's disastrous results in that election, Hogan was a candidate in the subsequent leadership election.[4] He lost out to Enda Kenny but was appointed spokesperson for Enterprise, Trade and Employment. Following the 2011 general election, he was appointed Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government.[5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_Hogan

Zebra3

ilovesleep wrote: »

So what does Enda Kenny have to say today about one of his FG ministers getting special loans from Fingalton?

Nothing.

Ghandee

Sleepy wrote: »

Trying to link the management fees dispute he's involved with to the household charge is facile nonsense that does the argument against property taxation no good .

Yeah you're right about that actually.

One is a standing charge one must pay in order to ensure services are provided to the property.

The other is a standing charge one must pay, but get sweet Fanny Adams for your money.


Why anyone would be in favour of it is beyond me.

tayto lover

noodler wrote: »

I think you might be confusing interest-only with interest-free.

An interest-only loan means you just pay the interest for the first number of years. You still owe the principle - it is simply deferred.

Would he have got it if he wasn't close to the mighty Fingers?
Looks after his mates no doubt.

philologos

noodler wrote: »

I think you might be confusing interest-only with interest-free.

An interest-only loan means you just pay the interest for the first number of years. You still owe the principle - it is simply deferred.

I still doubt many people got those type of loans.

noodler

philologos wrote: »

I still doubt many people got those type of loans.

Okay - that is your perogative.

There are plenty of cases of high-profile individuals (Developers mainly from what I can see) getting them.

Average Joe without a small property empire to back it up would obviously not be offered one.

tayto lover

noodler wrote: »

Okay - that is your perogative.

There are plenty of cases of high-profile individuals (Developers mainly from what I can see) getting them.

Average Joe without a small property empire to back it up would obviously not be offered one.

Is Hogan a personal friend of Fingers or how did he know to go to him? We are told that there was very little paperwork to obtain them too. Sounds like wink wink nod nod to me.
The whole affair stinks to high Heavens noodler and you know it.

noodler

tayto lover wrote: »

Is Hogan a personal friend of Fingers or how did he know to go to him? We are told that there was very little paperwork to obtain them too. Sounds like wink wink nod nod to me.
The whole affair stinks to high Heavens noodler and you know it.

Don't gimmie this "and you know it" bull.

People aren't judged based on you thinking something stinks to high heavens.

tayto lover wrote: »

Is Hogan a personal friend of Fingers or how did he know to go to him?

i.e. we don't know

tayto lover wrote: »

We are told

So we don't know.

tayto lover wrote: »

Sounds like

Good argument.


Forgive me if I want to wait for some actual facts before I pass judgement.

tayto lover

noodler wrote: »

Don't gimmie this "and you know it" bull.

People aren't judged based on you thinking something stinks to high heavens.



i.e. we don't know




So we don't know.



Good argument.


Forgive me if I want to wait for some actual facts before I pass judgement.

You seem to be hurtin' noodler. Big let down.
Hogan probably guessed that Fingers would look after him from his friendly demeanour and nice smile or else someone put in a word for him.

noodler

tayto lover wrote: »

You seem to be hurtin' noodler. Big let down.
Hogan probably guessed that Fingers would look after him from his friendly demeanour and nice smile or else someone put in a word for him.

???

Varied

The shills are in hibernation now.

ilovesleep

Zebra3 wrote: »

Nothing.

Shouldn't be surprised really. Almost one year on from his mighty speech to the Vatican, it was followed up with nothing. All words and talk he is but no action. Swanning off to Galway to get photographed at the Volve Ocean Race and partying it up in a tent, as if he played some sort of a part in bringing the VOR to Galway. That's all he's good for. FG the new FF. I wish Enda would just fcuk off back to Mayo and drown in a bog hole.

philologos

noodler wrote: »

Okay - that is your perogative.

There are plenty of cases of high-profile individuals (Developers mainly from what I can see) getting them.

Average Joe without a small property empire to back it up would obviously not be offered one.

That's my point. Please read my posts.

My point is that it is corruption. If the average joe couldn't hope to receive such a loan then it is obvious that a special case was made for others in the past.

Wouldn't you not say that's wrong, particularly when such careless lending has brought Europe into this mess?

noodler

philologos wrote: »

That's my point. Please read my posts.

:rolleyes:

I read the post in which you specifically addressed me.

For instance, your post where you were confusing an interest-free loan with an interest-only loan yet continued to make judgements based on yoru error.

I don't do a fecking background check on users before I answer them.

philologos wrote: »

My point is that it is corruption. If the average joe couldn't hope to receive such a loan then it is obvious that a special case was made for others in the past.

That is pure speculation. Lenders giving worse terms to people with less means/collateral does not equal corruption.

philologos wrote: »

Wouldn't you not say that's wrong, particularly when such careless lending has brought Europe into this mess?

Of course?

Obviously?

But if you want to criticise the borrower here then you need to be consistent and realise that thousands of people took out loans they could not afford.

Whats more, again according to the Indo, Hogan managed to pay back the mortgage.

washman3

tayto lover wrote: »

R.T.E News again fairly quiet. Nothing about this newsworthy item again. Cowan was persecuted for meeting Seanie and rightly so but F.G. get a free run from RTE.
To me this was a favour and reeks of cronyism and that is something F.G. promised to snuff out. I think this is a very serious issue and if guilty Hogan should be on his way.

RTE may be looking for a TV livence fee increase shortly and dont think its appropiate to rock the boat at the moment...;)

fishy fishy

ilovesleep wrote: »

Shouldn't be surprised really. Almost one year on from his mighty speech to the Vatican, it was followed up with nothing. All words and talk he is but no action. Swanning off to Galway to get photographed at the Volve Ocean Race and partying it up in a tent, as if he played some sort of a part in bringing the VOR to Galway. That's all he's good for. FG the new FF. I wish Enda would just fcuk off back to Mayo and drown in a bog hole.

nobody gave a sh*te about him in Galway - except for his hangers on and ar*e licks, and the people getting paid to stand beside him.

We couldn't have cared less that he was in the city for the Volvo.

philologos

noodler wrote: »

That is pure speculation. Lenders giving worse terms to people with less means/collateral does not equal corruption.

So you genuinely believe that Phil Hogan's role as a TD, or his friendship with Michael Fingleton had no role in him securing an interest only loan?

Really?

You're really missing the point. Obviously people shouldn't be given loans if they can't repay. That's the point isn't it. However, if two people can repay, and one gets interest-only and the other doesn't, then that has little to do with ability of repay.

noodler wrote: »

Of course?

Obviously?

But if you want to criticise the borrower here then you need to be consistent and realise that thousands of people took out loans they could not afford.

Whats more, again according to the Indo, Hogan managed to pay back the mortgage.

The point isn't whether or not he repaid. The point is that there was clearly corruption and special terms going on here.

noodler

philologos wrote: »

So you genuinely believe that Phil Hogan's role as a TD, or his friendship with Michael Fingleton had no role in him securing an interest only loan?

Don't put words in my mouth.

This isn't about belief - it is about proof, facts etc.

philologos wrote: »

You're really missing the point. Obviously people shouldn't be given loans if they can't repay. That's the point isn't it. However, if two people can repay, and one gets interest-only and the other doesn't, then that has little to do with ability of repay.

What on earth is your point here?

Paying the interest portion of your loan only and saving the principle for later down the road - that is an interest-only mortgage.

It is a rare arrangement but not uncommon with wealthy borrowers during the boom as all three banking reports have alluded to.

philologos wrote: »

The point isn't whether or not he repaid.

It is actually an important point as it means that the taxpayer didn't end up having to pay the bill for Hogan's loans when INBS went under.

philologos wrote: »

The point is that there was clearly corruption and special terms going on here.

Again, pure speculation on your part and an unequivocal assumption that an interest-only mortgage = corruption.

Isn't Hogan a man of financial means? Do you not think this had an important bearing on the the terms of his loan?

How can you be so 100% sure it was corruption and that his poltical status alone got him the loan?

kr7

noodler wrote: »

Don't put words in my mouth.

This isn't about belief - it is about proof, facts etc.




What on earth is your point here?

Paying the interest portion of your loan only and saving the principle for later down the road - that is an interest-only mortgage.

It is a rare arrangement but not uncommon with wealthy borrowers during the boom as all three banking reports have alluded to.






It is actually an important point as it means that the taxpayer didn't end up having to pay the bill for Hogan's loans when INBS went under.



Again, pure speculation on your part and an unequivocal assumption that an interest-only mortgage = corruption.

Isn't Hogan a man of financial means? Do you not think this had an important bearing on the the terms of his loan?

How can you be so 100% sure it was corruption and that his poltical status alone got him the loan?

Yea, hogan's a man of means ok.
Sure didn't he make his money selling overpriced shoeboxes to people who really couldn't afford them.

All this speculation about 'soft loans' and stuff is beginning to sound a bit like ahern..........


His refusal to pay his property charges in Portugal, his general way of going about his business, his foreign 'junkets' make me think that FG really are no different to the last shower!

washman3

Ghandee wrote: »

Yeah you're right about that actually.

One is a standing charge one must pay in order to ensure services are provided to the property.

The other is a standing charge one must pay, but get sweet Fanny Adams for your money.


Why anyone would be in favour of it is beyond me.

Beacuse all the blueshirts have to be seen to agree its a great idea.!!!
Even do Enda described it as immoral and unjust a few short years ago...

tayto lover

How do we know Hogan paid off his loans?
Do we take the Indo at their word only when it suits us or the F.G. agenda and criticise all the other stuff it prints when it doesn't suit our purpose?

christmas2012

FG the new FF.

... couldnt have put it better myself,the whole dail needs an overhaul,between travel fraud with ruari quinn and the mary harney FAS scandal..the whole system stinks to high heaven,just the other day my car got WRECKED proper ****ed up by a pot hole,hasnt been fixed in donkeys years,and they are asking for the 100 euro service charge,on top of what they take out of yearly tax anyway,and that road still hasnt been fixed.Politicians and civil servants overpaid,and lazy council workers in cushy jobs,there all as bent as a 9 bob note..ffs