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Judge appalled at video of Gardai
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BoardsMember wrote: »There's a fairly widely held view in the courts, by solicitors & barristers, that it is not unknown for some Gardaí barristers to say whatever it takes to help get a conviction. a soft ride from the Judge. This view is held by people who represent are familiar with those accused, and those defending all sorts of cases. Obviously there are loads of good Gardai, presumably more than bad ones.
FYP :rolleyes:Dangerous Man wrote: »Guards in perverting the course of justice / assault / intimidation / collusion / cowardice shocker. I don't know how many more instances of this kind of thing we need to see before we realize how terrible our police force is...
Are you for real?? Ever traveled abroad? Start a fight outside a Turkish Bar and come back and tell us how bad our coppers are.
IMO, the Cops here went a little over the top on the night and way over the top when they went to court.
According to the Defendants Barrister there was 30 seconds between checking the ID and the Garda dragging the defendant to the car. What was said in those 30 seconds?? Enough to wind up the copper obviously and probably enough to be considered a breach of the peace.
No doubt the Bouncers had pointed out the troublemakers to the Gardai, otherwise why ask him for ID?
Like others, I'd love to see the footage prior to the Gardai arriving. As it is, none of us have seen any of the footage so this is all obviously conjecture.
Hypothetical Question.... If the Scumbag that was arrested for the stabbings in Phoenix Park had his arm broken during his arrest would people be screaming about Police Brutality?0 -
It's an interesting aspect of the Gardaí. The more professional and by the book they are, the less they are liked.
This thread is not about the majority of by the book professional Guards but one who abused his position because he didn't like what someone was legally doing,used violence, caused a serious injury and conspired with his colleagues to bring false charges against an innocent man.
Surely all the professional Guards out the should be glad to see these bad apples exposed as they are the ones that give Garda bashers the excuse to bad mouth the force as a whole.0 -
There's no denying that the Gardai have a tough job to do, that being said there is zero justification for any Gardai to ever deny someone their rights as oulined in the constitution and the general law of the land.
The problem can only stem from a couple of sources, one being training.
If Gardai were trained properly and told that this sort of thing (physical assault) is not acceptable unless the Garda is defending himself then I doubt the bully boy attitude would be as prevalent as it it seems to be in the Gardai, this seems to stem from a culture of 'us' (Gardai) and 'them' (every non Garda) and the ridiculous superiority complex some Gardai seem to have, forgetting totally that they are not the law but merely administrators of the law who are subject to the same laws as everyone else.
Not all Gardai have bad attitudes, and as I already said, they have tough job, they are generally 10 times better today when dealing with people than they were 10 or 20 years ago in my opinion, but they must never forget what it is they are paid to do and that is to serve the public as guardians of peace for the citizens of the Republic and this includes themselves abiding by the law and being answerable to the law.0 -
twowheelsonly wrote: »FYP :rolleyes:
Are you for real?? Ever traveled abroad? Start a fight outside a Turkish Bar and come back and tell us how bad our coppers are.
IMO, the Cops here went a little over the top on the night and way over the top when they went to court.
According to the Defendants Barrister there was 30 seconds between checking the ID and the Garda dragging the defendant to the car. What was said in those 30 seconds?? Enough to wind up the copper obviously and probably enough to be considered a breach of the peace.
No doubt the Bouncers had pointed out the troublemakers to the Gardai, otherwise why ask him for ID?
Like others, I'd love to see the footage prior to the Gardai arriving. As it is, none of us have seen any of the footage so this is all obviously conjecture.
Hypothetical Question.... If the Scumbag that was arrested for the stabbings in Phoenix Park had his arm broken during his arrest would people be screaming about Police Brutality?
Winding up a 'copper' is not an excuse, if a member of the Gardai can't put his ego aside and deal with a situation without resorting to violence then maybe he/she is in the wrong profession.
I mean door men get wound up all night every night, does that mean they would be justified assaulting someone? No is the answer.0 -
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twowheelsonly wrote: »FYP :rolleyes:
Are you for real?? Ever traveled abroad? Start a fight outside a Turkish Bar and come back and tell us how bad our coppers are.
IMO, the Cops here went a little over the top on the night and way over the top when they went to court.
According to the Defendants Barrister there was 30 seconds between checking the ID and the Garda dragging the defendant to the car. What was said in those 30 seconds?? Enough to wind up the copper obviously and probably enough to be considered a breach of the peace.
No doubt the Bouncers had pointed out the troublemakers to the Gardai, otherwise why ask him for ID?
Like others, I'd love to see the footage prior to the Gardai arriving. As it is, none of us have seen any of the footage so this is all obviously conjecture.
Hypothetical Question.... If the Scumbag that was arrested for the stabbings in Phoenix Park had his arm broken during his arrest would people be screaming about Police Brutality?
Oh, and just to note, the Gardai have no right to ask anyone not driving a motor vehicle for ID, there is no law in Ireland stating an Irish citizen must carry ID.0 -
There's no denying that the Gardai have a tough job to do, that being said there is zero justification for any Gardai to ever deny someone their rights as oulined in the constitution and the general law of the land.
The problem can only stem from a couple of sources, one being training.
If Gardai were trained properly and told that this sort of thing (physical assault) is not acceptable unless the Garda is defending himself then I doubt the bully boy attitude would be as prevalent as it it seems to be in the Gardai, this seems to stem from a culture of 'us' (Gardai) and 'them' (every non Garda) and the ridiculous superiority complex some Gardai seem to have, forgetting totally that they are not the law but merely administrators of the law who are subject to the same laws as everyone else.
Not all Gardai have bad attitudes, and as I already said, they have tough job, they are generally 10 times better today when dealing with people than they were 10 or 20 years ago in my opinion, but they must never forget what it is they are paid to do and that is to serve the public as guardians of peace for the citizens of the Republic and this includes themselves abiding by the law and being answerable to the law.
Bravo my good man, yes that's why we have a 96 page thread about mayhem in the phoenix pk, because the gardai are bully boys :rolleyes:0 -
coolhandluke wrote: »Bravo my good man, yes that's why we have a 96 page thread about mayhem in the phoenix pk, because the gardai are bully boys :rolleyes:
Keep your condescending undertones to yourself 'my good man'
I suggest you re-read what I wrote, I never said all Gardai are bully boys but you are certainly deluded if you think they dont exist in the organisation.
Please, try to look at the issue from a perspective outside the biased myopic view you currently seem to have, it may even help you grow as a person.0 -
Winding up a 'copper' is not an excuse, if a member of the Gardai can't put his ego aside and deal with a situation without resorting to violence then maybe he/she is in the wrong profession.
I mean door men get wound up all night every night, does that mean they would be justified assaulting someone? No is the answer.
I didn't say it was an excuse, but it could be a reason.
Quite possibly this cop has faced the same situation 200 times before without losing it. Quite possibly he's a bad apple. None of us can say for sure. What we can say for sure though is that people (including bouncers!!) do have breaking points which can vary from day to day. Doesn't necessarily mean that he's in the wrong job though.
What strikes me here is that if this case was in the District Court why did he have a Barrister. It's not unknown but is quite unusual.0 -
Oh, and just to note, the Gardai have no right to ask anyone not driving a motor vehicle for ID, there is no law in Ireland stating an Irish citizen must carry ID.
I actually didn't know that!!
However, in the context of what I was saying he was asked for ID as the Cop was probably aware that he would have it. (Most young people going drinking these days do carry it..)0 -
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twowheelsonly wrote: »I didn't say it was an excuse, but it could be a reason.
Quite possibly this cop has faced the same situation 200 times before without losing it. Quite possibly he's a bad apple. None of us can say for sure. What we can say for sure though is that people (including bouncers!!) do have breaking points which can vary from day to day. Doesn't necessarily mean that he's in the wrong job though.
What strikes me here is that if this case was in the District Court why did he have a Barrister. It's not unknown but is quite unusual.
Perhaps he wanted the best possible defence in a case that could lead to a conviction for him, possibly causing untold misery in his future life?
The question remains, if the Garda in question did in fact assault this guy, why isn't he up on assault charges?
We are all human, and we can all make mistakes but getting physical with someone in any situation other than self defence is wrong and unjustified.
Gardai are supposed to be an example to society, using gratuitous violence against a person who is not attacking you is wrong no matter how much of an idiot the person may be.0 -
EH because the knew that An Garda Siochana were trying to have him convicted on perjured testimony, in his case i would have a barrister there too!twowheelsonly wrote: »I didn't say it was an excuse, but it could be a reason.
Quite possibly this cop has faced the same situation 200 times before without losing it. Quite possibly he's a bad apple. None of us can say for sure. What we can say for sure though is that people (including bouncers!!) do have breaking points which can vary from day to day. Doesn't necessarily mean that he's in the wrong job though.
What strikes me here is that if this case was in the District Court why did he have a Barrister. It's not unknown but is quite unusual.0 -
twowheelsonly wrote: »FYP :rolleyes:
Are you for real?? Ever traveled abroad? Start a fight outside a Turkish Bar and come back and tell us how bad our coppers are.
Agreed AGS are far from the worst, they should aspire to be the besttwowheelsonly wrote: »What was said in those 30 seconds?? Enough to wind up the copper obviously and probably enough to be considered a breach of the peace.
Just speculation on your behalf as there was no evidence of this nor was a charge breach of the peace brought.twowheelsonly wrote: »Like others, I'd love to see the footage prior to the Gardai arriving. As it is, none of us have seen any of the footage so this is all obviously conjecture.
The judge was presented with all the available evidence an based his decision on it. If there was evidence of an offence on the video before the Gardai arrived why was he not charged?twowheelsonly wrote: »Hypothetical Question.... If the Scumbag that was arrested for the stabbings in Phoenix Park had his arm broken during his arrest would people be screaming about Police Brutality?
Yes if it was broken for no justifiable reason and that goes for any member of the public.0 -
Maybe yer man said to the Guard that he would rape him at Corrib Field or something and he took offence.0
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These modern Garda are just modern normal folk aka chavs. Grew up the same dingey disco scene don't be surprised they didn't intervene on Saturday for instance, same as the 'security' - a new low, seen as normal behavior. People are beinng given supended sentences for gangland style kidnappings, seen as a bit of skit by the judges emselves.. just how far up has this permeated?0
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I had a run in with the Gardaí in Limerick a few years ago. I only wish that I had been able to record, or somebody else for that matter, their behaviour. After reading about this case, I wonder was this particular Garda involved in mine.
I had been assaulted in the city centre and was defending myself when the Gardaí came along. Instead of finding out what had actually happened (and any bystander would have confirmed that I was an innocent party) they decided to rough up both people in the fracas. On being assaulted at first by a stranger and then by the Gardaí, I was in a fairly fierce rage and resisted arrest, and that certainly didn't help matters. The Gardaí only became more violent. In the station, while still hand-cuffed and seated, I was hit again by one Garda while himself and a few others verbally abused me. Eventually, I was given the option of accepting an adult caution or being booked with a variety of trumped up charges (breach of peace, etc). I didn't want to accept the caution as I felt that I was completely innocent and had been badly treated, but was told if I didn't accept it I'd be charged and it would be my word against theirs in court, and that wasn't a risk that seemed worth taking.
I don't want to tar all Gardaí with the one brush. I have family and friends who are members of the force and I have great admiration and respect for what they do. But my impression in this case was that there was a group of young, inexperienced Gardaí who had a shoot first, ask questions later policy that only exacerbated situations. I certainly think that more senior Gardaí wouldn't have handled the situation as badly as these young officers did.0 -
twowheelsonly wrote: »Hypothetical Question.... If the Scumbag that was arrested for the stabbings in Phoenix Park had his arm broken during his arrest would people be screaming about Police Brutality?
It's off topic, but seeing as how you brought it up, was it not mentioned that that the actions of the fella who was arrested and charged were witnessed by Guards....they didn't seem to have been as gung-ho about wading in there and mixing it with a weapon-wielding thug. Still though, he was only stabbing people. It's not as if he was drunkly standing by, videoing stuff on his phone or any similar pressing danger to public safety.
What is the major issue here? There are two issues: 1) Excessive force / assault and 2) fabricating stories to bring a criminal conviction against someone for something he was innocent of. They can try to make up excuses against (1) but none against (2). Imagine having your life ruined, possibly losing your job or ability to travel to certain countries, because some ignorant Guard made up a story to cover over his own thuggish behaviour.
Trying to justify the assault of a bystander by comparing it to a completely unrelated and completely different case is ridiculous. It might be tentatively similar if the Guards had apprehended and stopped the "stabber" from attacking people and broken his arm in the process. But they didn't. They arrested him at some stage after he had done his damage. Just because some scumbag stabbed people in the Phoenix park, that does not give the Guards carte blanche to assault other people for no good reason.
Most of the people that you read about that bring cases against the Guards are normal, average people. You very rarely hear a case where a well-known or high profile dangerous criminal has gotten a few belts from a Guard. But then again, bullies only every pick on those who are weaker or in a weaker position than them.0 -
It's off topic, but seeing as how you brought it up, was it not mentioned that that the actions of the fella who was arrested and charged were witnessed by Guards....they didn't seem to have been as gung-ho about wading in there and mixing it with a weapon-wielding thug. Still though, he was only stabbing people. It's not as if he was drunkly standing by, videoing stuff on his phone or any similar pressing danger to public safety.
What is the major issue here? There are two issues: 1) Excessive force / assault and 2) fabricating stories to bring a criminal conviction against someone for something he was innocent of. They can try to make up excuses against (1) but none against (2). Imagine having your life ruined, possibly losing your job or ability to travel to certain countries, because some ignorant Guard made up a story to cover over his own thuggish behaviour.
Trying to justify the assault of a bystander by comparing it to a completely unrelated and completely different case is ridiculous. It might be tentatively similar if the Guards had apprehended and stopped the "stabber" from attacking people and broken his arm in the process. But they didn't. They arrested him at some stage after he had done his damage. Just because some scumbag stabbed people in the Phoenix park, that does not give the Guards carte blanche to assault other people for no good reason.
Most of the people that you read about that bring cases against the Guards are normal, average people. You very rarely hear a case where a well-known or high profile dangerous criminal has gotten a few belts from a Guard. But then again, bullies only every pick on those who are weaker or in a weaker position than them.
Re Phoenix Park: My understanding is that they witnessed him stabbing one person and they DID wade in and arrest him and then discovered (from other witnesses) that he had stabbed others. Initially it was one off-duty guard that was assisted by an on-duty colleague. So kudos to them, they did their duty admirably against a dangerous man armed with a knife.
BTW, no way do I condone this cop in Limerick trying to stitch someone up. Totally unacceptable IMO. His actions on the night itself though I'd hold my fire on as we don't know the full story.
I'd certainly be extremely dubious of this guy being an innocent bystander though. Hands up if I'm wrong but I don't think I am.
The reason for mentioning Phoenix Park is for comparison purposes. Sometimes we don't seem to mind the cops dishing out a bit of street justice, and if that guy had his arm broken or ended up with two black eyes then we wouldn't really mind. Likewise the other thread going on here where the two junkies got their asses handed to them. Almost all are praising and condoning the actions of the foreigners. However, if that went to court, and we never saw the video, all we'd hear about is two muscular foreigners beating up two sick dubs and kicking them on the ground and we'd be screaming blue murder about it!! It's all about context and unfortunately we don't have the full context of what went on in Limerick.0 -
twowheelsonly wrote: »Re Phoenix Park: My understanding is that they witnessed him stabbing one person and they DID wade in and arrest him and then discovered (from other witnesses) that he had stabbed others. Initially it was one off-duty guard that was assisted by an on-duty colleague. So kudos to them, they did their duty admirably against a dangerous man armed with a knife.
BTW, no way do I condone this cop in Limerick trying to stitch someone up. Totally unacceptable IMO. His actions on the night itself though I'd hold my fire on as we don't know the full story.
I'd certainly be extremely dubious of this guy being an innocent bystander though. Hands up if I'm wrong but I don't think I am.
The reason for mentioning Phoenix Park is for comparison purposes. Sometimes we don't seem to mind the cops dishing out a bit of street justice, and if that guy had his arm broken or ended up with two black eyes then we wouldn't really mind. Likewise the other thread going on here where the two junkies got their asses handed to them. Almost all are praising and condoning the actions of the foreigners. However, if that went to court, and we never saw the video, all we'd hear about is two muscular foreigners beating up two sick dubs and kicking them on the ground and we'd be screaming blue murder about it!! It's all about context and unfortunately we don't have the full context of what went on in Limerick.
It would seem more reasonable to break someones arm in the course of removing a knife from their hands after they've already proven that they are willing to use it, yet that didn't happen. Certainly more reasonable than breaking the arm of someone who has done nothing illegal. The two cases are irrelevent to each other.
IMHO the worst part in this case is the perjury by the guards in question, it undermines the whole justice system if they are seen to get away with it.
Also, a broken arm will eventually heal but a unwarranted criminal conviction could destroy a life. How many other lives have those bastards ruined because the civilian didn't have access to CCTV.0 -
These modern Garda are just modern normal folk aka chavs. Grew up the same dingey disco scene don't be surprised they didn't intervene on Saturday for instance, same as the 'security' - a new low, seen as normal behavior. People are beinng given supended sentences for gangland style kidnappings, seen as a bit of skit by the judges emselves.. just how far up has this permeated?
What's that in english?0 -
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twowheelsonly wrote: »Re Phoenix Park: My understanding is that they witnessed him stabbing one person and they DID wade in and arrest him and then discovered (from other witnesses) that he had stabbed others. Initially it was one off-duty guard that was assisted by an on-duty colleague. So kudos to them, they did their duty admirably against a dangerous man armed with a knife.
BTW, no way do I condone this cop in Limerick trying to stitch someone up. Totally unacceptable IMO. His actions on the night itself though I'd hold my fire on as we don't know the full story.
I'd certainly be extremely dubious of this guy being an innocent bystander though. Hands up if I'm wrong but I don't think I am.
The reason for mentioning Phoenix Park is for comparison purposes. Sometimes we don't seem to mind the cops dishing out a bit of street justice, and if that guy had his arm broken or ended up with two black eyes then we wouldn't really mind. Likewise the other thread going on here where the two junkies got their asses handed to them. Almost all are praising and condoning the actions of the foreigners. However, if that went to court, and we never saw the video, all we'd hear about is two muscular foreigners beating up two sick dubs and kicking them on the ground and we'd be screaming blue murder about it!! It's all about context and unfortunately we don't have the full context of what went on in Limerick.
There is a difference between having to get rough in the course of their duties to protect the public and dishing out summary justice. Of course nobody is going to be complaining if the Guards have to use force to arrest someone. The same as how I'm not going to complain if I'm in a nightclub and the bouncers manhandle and sit on a fella who starts throwing glasses around the place or trying to start fights. But if I saw the same bouncers randomly kicking the sh1te out of someone innocent for the craic I wouldn't say "ah sure grand. I wouldn't complain if your man way trying to glass me"
As someone else posted, guards are administrators of the law. They are not the law. Being drunk, or an ar$ehole, does not justify your getting assaulted0 -
Oh, and just to note, the Gardai have no right to ask anyone not driving a motor vehicle for ID, there is no law in Ireland stating an Irish citizen must carry ID.
Everybody has the right to ask anybody for ID actually. It's only in the motor situation that you're obliged to produce it.0 -
TheChizler wrote: »Everybody has the right to ask anybody for ID actually. It's only in the motor situation that you're obliged to produce it.
Eh, in the context of the discussion, I think what I meant was quite obvious. Your post is a non point.0 -
Eh, in the context of the discussion, I think what I meant was quite obvious. Your post is a non point.
I disagree, I feel there's an important distinction between the two. To reasonable people they work out the same, but to some unreasonable person reading this they may go out tonight thinking that the Gardaí have no right to ask for ID; cue the exchange:
"Can I see your ID please? You don't have any right to ask me for ID it's the law! I think you'll find I can ask you anything. No you can't so f off! You're under arrest under section 8 of the public order act, failure to comply with a direction given by a member of the Garda Síochána. Police brutality!"
And thus the content of tomorrow night's thread.0 -
Have these Guards been charged with perjury and assault?0
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Based on the article alone it's very hard to defend these two guards.
I wouldn't get to hung up on the broken arm, I the guard set to do it, I'd imagine it happened by accident in a struggle. It can happen easily, as anyone who did any contact sports will tel you. I myself roke my collarbone doing a simple fli on a mattress.
Alleged perjury is the real issue here, it's wrong and it shouldn't have happened.
However:
People tend to forget that guards deal with violence on nearly daily basis. Over and over again they see little scumbags getting away with murder (sometimes literally). Even when the guilty are caught, they enjoy free legal aid to help them get off, and even if they are convicted they get laughable sentences. And then they serve approximately a third of it (between automatic 25% off and temporary release). As a result you have people with 80 or 100 convictions for assault, public order and similar offences free to walk out of court with yet another conviction, which means nothing to them. If you watch it happen regularly it has to frustrate and affect you, no matter how professional you are.
Another thing is that you Irish are a young society, you only recently became independent and the mistrust towards authority is still deep in your blood. You just hate anyone telling you what to do, which makes the policing in Ireland very very hard. Your lack of respect for rules, creates this huge grey area - sure I can cut this amber light, take a piss on a street, have a little fight, no harm done. Don't get me wrong - this 'sure it'll be grand' attitude is great, it's what makes everyone in the world love the Irish and is a reason why I'm here, but it can be a nightmare from the policing point of view.
I had professional dealings with police in few European countries and I think all things considered, the AGS is doing a pretty god job. Brake a law in England, Spain or Poland an see what happens.
As for stretching the truth in court - i'd imagine it does happen. But if you think only guards do it, you're a fool. I'm not even talking about the defendants themselves, them lying is to be expected. But when it comes to sentencing, every little scumbag is suddenly a pilar of his community, who doesn't do drugs or drink anymore and sure he has to get to see his kids almost every week so it would be inhumane to lock him up. In other words the esteemed members of the legal profession are no strangers to lying and exaggerating themselves.
The legal system is another story completely. Created by lawyers, run by lawyers, with no outside overseers whatsoever. It's a clique whose main purpose is to make money for themselves. Legal aid system is a joke in itself, there are no rules to it, it's entirely up to the judge to award it, and sure wasn't the judge a barrister himself?
Of course journalists won't cover it, due to risk of legal consequences. Who would want to take on bunch of solicitors (who even challenged and took down simple customer review ratemysolicitor website), if there are the guards, who are actually prevented by their code of conduct from defending themselves. As a result AGS as an organisation and individual guards are getting blamed for failings of the legal system.
Anyway, went on a bit of a rant here, bottom line is: perjury is bad, but let's not forget is that all we know about what happened is an article in a paper, which is rather one sided, i.e. we don;t know what happened before your man started recording.0 -
frozenbanana wrote: »Based on the article alone it's very hard to defend these two guards.
I wouldn't get to hung up on the broken arm, I the guard set to do it, I'd imagine it happened by accident in a struggle. It can happen easily, as anyone who did any contact sports will tel you. I myself roke my collarbone doing a simple fli on a mattress.
Alleged perjury is the real issue here, it's wrong and it shouldn't have happened.
However:
People tend to forget that guards deal with violence on nearly daily basis. Over and over again they see little scumbags getting away with murder (sometimes literally). Even when the guilty are caught, they enjoy free legal aid to help them get off, and even if they are convicted they get laughable sentences. And then they serve approximately a third of it (between automatic 25% off and temporary release). As a result you have people with 80 or 100 convictions for assault, public order and similar offences free to walk out of court with yet another conviction, which means nothing to them. If you watch it happen regularly it has to frustrate and affect you, no matter how professional you are.
Another thing is that you Irish are a young society, you only recently became independent and the mistrust towards authority is still deep in your blood. You just hate anyone telling you what to do, which makes the policing in Ireland very very hard. Your lack of respect for rules, creates this huge grey area - sure I can cut this amber light, take a piss on a street, have a little fight, no harm done. Don't get me wrong - this 'sure it'll be grand' attitude is great, it's what makes everyone in the world love the Irish and is a reason why I'm here, but it can be a nightmare from the policing point of view.
I had professional dealings with police in few European countries and I think all things considered, the AGS is doing a pretty god job. Brake a law in England, Spain or Poland an see what happens.
As for stretching the truth in court - i'd imagine it does happen. But if you think only guards do it, you're a fool. I'm not even talking about the defendants themselves, them lying is to be expected. But when it comes to sentencing, every little scumbag is suddenly a pilar of his community, who doesn't do drugs or drink anymore and sure he has to get to see his kids almost every week so it would be inhumane to lock him up. In other words the esteemed members of the legal profession are no strangers to lying and exaggerating themselves.
The legal system is another story completely. Created by lawyers, run by lawyers, with no outside overseers whatsoever. It's a clique whose main purpose is to make money for themselves. Legal aid system is a joke in itself, there are no rules to it, it's entirely up to the judge to award it, and sure wasn't the judge a barrister himself?
Of course journalists won't cover it, due to risk of legal consequences. Who would want to take on bunch of solicitors (who even challenged and took down simple customer review ratemysolicitor website), if there are the guards, who are actually prevented by their code of conduct from defending themselves. As a result AGS as an organisation and individual guards are getting blamed for failings of the legal system.
Anyway, went on a bit of a rant here, bottom line is: perjury is bad, but let's not forget is that all we know about what happened is an article in a paper, which is rather one sided, i.e. we don;t know what happened before your man started recording.
No offence, but so what if they get hassle on their job - that is pretty much part and parcel of the job which is similar to teachers having to deal with brats of idiot parents etc. Maybe it shouldn't be the case, but it is and everyone knows it before they enter the profession. Bouncers get hassle too. If you have a bouncer who reacts to every gobsh1te with a punch to the head you'd say he shouldn't be in that job. It's the same for a guard.
And if the criminals get away with light sentences, that's not the Guards problem or business.It's not for them to decide and as such it's irrelevant to their duties. We have a separate judicial system for good reason. I'm sure it might be frustrating, but sure so what. I'd reckon it's a lot more frustrating for the poor people who have to live in the criminals community. When there is a court case, the guard has to take a day off his duties to sit in a courtroom to give evidence and it is a waste of his time alright, especially if the conviction is meaningless, but again, that's not for him to decide. Equally so, it is a waste of garda time and resources if the guard has to take a day from his duties to go to court to give false evidence for a concocted case such as the one in this story!
If I'm a street sweeper or litter warden and I report or issue fines/cause summonses to be issued to the same people over and over for littering and they keep getting off with miniscule or no fines in court, then it doesn't mean I can use that as a justification to batter the next person who annoys me in any way.0 -
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No offence, but so what if they get hassle on their job - that is pretty much part and parcel of the job which is similar to teachers having to deal with brats of idiot parents etc. Maybe it shouldn't be the case, but it is and everyone knows it before they enter the profession. Bouncers get hassle too. If you have a bouncer who reacts to every gobsh1te with a punch to the head you'd say he shouldn't be in that job. It's the same for a guard.
And if the criminals get away with light sentences, that's not the Guards problem or business.It's not for them to decide and as such it's irrelevant to their duties. We have a separate judicial system for good reason. I'm sure it might be frustrating, but sure so what. I'd reckon it's a lot more frustrating for the poor people who have to live in the criminals community. When there is a court case, the guard has to take a day off his duties to sit in a courtroom to give evidence and it is a waste of his time alright, especially if the conviction is meaningless, but again, that's not for him to decide. Equally so, it is a waste of garda time and resources if the guard has to take a day from his duties to go to court to give false evidence for a concocted case such as the one in this story!
If I'm a street sweeper or litter warden and I report or issue fines/cause summonses to be issued to the same people over and over for littering and they keep getting off with miniscule or no fines in court, then it doesn't mean I can use that as a justification to batter the next person who annoys me in any way.
i see you come from a world of robots. What brings you to us humans?0 -
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''Insp Reidy said Mr Daly had not complained of any injury and the custody record kept by Sgt John Cleary at Henry Street Garda Station recorded he was not injured when he was released from custody at 1.20am - 30 minutes after his arrest.''
Who broke his arm? was it broken after he left the station or not?0 -
''Insp Reidy said Mr Daly had not complained of any injury and the custody record kept by Sgt John Cleary at Henry Street Garda Station recorded he was not injured when he was released from custody at 1.20am - 30 minutes after his arrest.''
Who broke his arm? was it broken after he left the station or not?
It was probably just a small break that wasn't very painful. I've known many a person to have broken something and not realised it.0 -
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i see you come from a world of robots. What brings you to us humans?
Whereas you seem to come from a world that if you have a bad day at work, you are entitled to use your position and power to assault innocent strangers.
Would it be it ok in your world for the Guard to make sh1t up and perjure himself to try to give an innocent person an criminal record, just because some actual criminal keeps getting away with it?
Perhaps if they stopped their bullyboy power-tripping on ordinary decent people, and instead concentrated more on the actual criminals, the actual criminals might be behind bars
You are obviously a guard or have some relation who is a guard. Although probably not the former unless you have a good spell-checker on your computer!
Of course it's grand for guards and friends of guards - those penalty points for speeding, sure isn't your mate a guard so that means they never happened. Magically disappeared, so they did! Run a pub and stay open later than legal closing hours? Ah sure don't the guards drink there for free. No closing time fines for you Mr. Publican0 -
''Insp Reidy said Mr Daly had not complained of any injury and the custody record kept by Sgt John Cleary at Henry Street Garda Station recorded he was not injured when he was released from custody at 1.20am - 30 minutes after his arrest.''
Who broke his arm? was it broken after he left the station or not?
Maybe the victim just wasn't in the form for complaining or asking the guards for help.
Plus, it might be valuable "evidence" for the Guards to log that he wasn't injured when he left the station - "Court case your honour. Well sure it says here in our log books that he wasn't injured when he left the station...he must have fallen after he left the station".
Either way, I'd doubt they do a full medical exam before releasing anyone. They probably don't even ask him. Didn't one of the articles say that he was forced to sign something with his other hand at some stage?0 -
Maybe the victim just wasn't in the form for complaining or asking the guards for help.
Plus, it might be valuable "evidence" for the Guards to log that he wasn't injured when he left the station - "Court case your honour. Well sure it says here in our log books that he wasn't injured when he left the station...he must have fallen after he left the station".
Either way, I'd doubt they do a full medical exam before releasing anyone. They probably don't even ask him. Didn't one of the articles say that he was forced to sign something with his other hand at some stage?
He said he signed with his right hand, he is left handed I think.
Why would they do a medical if he never complained of being hurt?
Now you think all the guards lied?0 -
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It was probably just a small break that wasn't very painful. I've known many a person to have broken something and not realised it.
Yeah. I'd say he never realised it. "Hmm, I can't seem to write with my left hand. Perhaps I've just got some form of amnesia or maybe even been cured of my left-handedness. I wonder what happened. Ah well, sure I'll stop thinking about it. Nothing strange in that. I'll worry about it tomorrow"Mr Daly had been left “wincing in pain” and had to sign his name to an adult caution form with his right hand, when he was left-handed.0 -
They Just can't help themselves can they, and before anyone accuses me of Garda bashing I didn't ask them to assault anyone ,on camera!
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0710/1224319721336.html
did that guy sue the guardai...
if that was in the states he would be taken for a ride so high he would be sleeping under a tree long ago with a blanket.0 -
He said he signed with his right hand, he is left handed I think.
Why would they do a medical if he never complained of being hurt?
Now you think all the guards lied?
No, I didn't say they should or would do a medical. I said that even if the releasing guard was unaware of the injury, the fact that he was unaware of it does not mean it was not present as I'd imagine it's not standard procedure to give a medical exam to someone.
Other possibility is that he did lie. Perhaps covering for his buddy. I'm not sure if it's a standard thing to put on a release form whether the person being released is injured. If it's not standard, then putting down explicitly would seem a bit suspicious0 -
You would have to use a fair bit of force to break someone's arm in fairness.
It's fair to say it was broken at the time of arrest?
Not always. it depends on the bone and type of break though.Whereas you seem to come from a world that if you have a bad day at work, you are entitled to use your position and power to assault innocent strangers.
Would it be it ok in your world for the Guard to make sh1t up and perjure himself to try to give an innocent person an criminal record, just because some actual criminal keeps getting away with it?
Perhaps if they stopped their bullyboy power-tripping on ordinary decent people, and instead concentrated more on the actual criminals, the actual criminals might be behind bars
You are obviously a guard or have some relation who is a guard. Although probably not the former unless you have a good spell-checker on your computer!
Of course it's grand for guards and friends of guards - those penalty points for speeding, sure isn't your mate a guard so that means they never happened. Magically disappeared, so they did! Run a pub and stay open later than legal closing hours? Ah sure don't the guards drink there for free. No closing time fines for you Mr. Publican
I find it amusing that you make fun of other peoples spelling yet seem completely oblivious to the fact that the word is Garda, not guard.0 -
No, I didn't say they should or would do a medical. I said that even if the releasing guard was unaware of the injury, the fact that he was unaware of it does not mean it was not present as I'd imagine it's not standard procedure to give a medical exam to someone.
Other possibility is that he did lie. Perhaps covering for his buddy. I'm not sure if it's a standard thing to put on a release form whether the person being released is injured. If it's not standard, then putting down explicitly would seem a bit suspicious
Of course you're not sure. If you actually knew anything you wouldn't get as much satisfaction from your rant. Ignorance is bliss.0 -
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No, I didn't say they should or would do a medical. I said that even if the releasing guard was unaware of the injury, the fact that he was unaware of it does not mean it was not present as I'd imagine it's not standard procedure to give a medical exam to someone.
Other possibility is that he did lie. Perhaps covering for his buddy. I'm not sure if it's a standard thing to put on a release form whether the person being released is injured. If it's not standard, then putting down explicitly would seem a bit suspicious
I'm sure it's standard practise if someone requests a doctor one will be got.
Did the person make it know at the time he was injured?0 -
Did I spell "Guard" incorrectly? Nope, I don't think I did! If you want to be pedantic, the "word" I used is not Garda. The "word" that I intentionally and correctly used was "Guard". The official title of the "force" is "An Garda Síochána". It is not "The Gardaí" anymore than "The Guards" is.Not always. it depends on the bone and type of break though.
I find it amusing that you make fun of other peoples spelling yet seem completely oblivious to the fact that the word is Garda, not guard.
A little lesson for you so. Garda is an Irish word. Guard is the English translation of Garda. And it is widely used in the vernacular. You will hear people say "call the Guards". Perhaps you might say "Call the Gardaí" or perhaps even "Call na nGardai" or maybe you're a Gaelgoir and say "Cur glaoch ar na nGardaí Síochána". Any of the first three are equally as correct or incorrect as each other.
I did not misspell a word. You are trying to be a smartar$e and failing miserably at it. If that is all you have to contribute, then I think you're time is done here.0 -
Of course you're not sure. If you actually knew anything you wouldn't get as much satisfaction from your rant. Ignorance is bliss.
So can you enlighten us there as to the standard procedure involved in releasing an arrested person? Is there a standard form to fill in? Does it have a large detailed section where the releasing Guard has to give his expert medical opinion as to the health of the person being released?
I wouldn't know about ignorance being bliss ... I suppose I just don't have any experience of being ignorant. They didn't teach it where I was educated. Should've gone to Templemore maybe?0 -
Help them do what exactly? Start throwing random digs at anyone you see a Guard throwing a dig at? Nowhere does it suggest that the Guards were under pressure or in trouble. In fact, the one who committed the assault had enough time to go over and ask the injured party for ID. It doesn't seem like he was struggling to hold down and arrest a gang of violent thugs at the time.
I would also imagine that videoing it would actually be of assistance. If I were walking down the street and some randomer decided to assault me or punch me, I'd be happy to find out that someone had happened to video it. Videoing incidents is actually of great help to getting justice....in fact it can also be used to exonerate people from false accusations and prevent them from getting bogus convictions....it can even from false accusations made the Guards.....if only I had some evidence of such a story....
Your argument, while maybe sounding great on first glance, makes no sense. It's a bit like starting your argument saying "how much better global society would be if there was no starving babies".
The Limerick Leader article provides a better insight into what went on and the extent of the cover up that ensued.
I agree with you that filming can help in proving or disproving a case. If I was to stumble upon a crime in progress possibly my best option would be to record it as it could be used as evidence down the line.
However it can happen that people record stuff for the hell of it, plenty of fights etc recorded purely for entertainment purposes
My reading of the initial article lead me to believe that this guy along with 3 others was asked to leave the area 2 of them did and so nothing more happened to them. 2 of them didn't and so the gardai decided to arrest them. At this point the guy started filming which agitated the gardai.
I can see in this particular instance that is not how things happened.
I don't think your starving babies analogy is applicable but I'll keep it in mind for any beauty pageants I might enter
People don't tend to make many videos of gardai doing a good job as that is just what we expect them to do. I was speaking in general terms and not specifically of this case. It would be better if our first thought when seeing the gardai working was not this is going on YouTube - there are some videos showing genuine police brutality, inappropriate behaviour etc. but there are a lot of videos which are there to laugh at or imply the gardai are inept.
I've just watched some of the Project X Cavan videos with the party crashers saying 'stand your ground'. It'd be hilarious except that I know if one the cops even so much as tripped and fell against them the party crashers would be crying brutality
In the case of an incident /arrest in progress/ crash it would be better if people could assist the gardai rather than just film them even if that assistance is to stay out of the way.0 -
I'm sure it's standard practise if someone requests a doctor one will be got.
Did the person make it know at the time he was injured?
That's not the point. I'm sure it's official standard practice to get a doctor if requested. Although it might not be implemented for someone they are turfing out in half an hour.
Likewise, I'm sure that it's probably not official standard practice to break bystanders arms and commit perjury.
Your previous quote says that the custody record stated he was not injured when he left. It doesn't state that the arrested man didn't complain of injuries. It doesn't say that he was asked if he was ok and said he was or refused to answer.
For all the Guards knew, it could have just been a sprain. It would be far handier for them if it happened after he was let out of the station of course. No questions for them to answer. I wouldn't like to try going to court to claim I was assaulted by a Guard if there was no CCTV footage, a healed sprain, I had been arrested and there was an official log that I was fine when I left the station. And to be defending a bogus charge in front of me on top of that too. I don't think I'd be getting much credit from the Judge in that scenario! The fact that this custody record was produced in evidence would seem to suggest that they were trying to imply that he was grand when he left the station. When he clearly wasn't. He had to sign with his weak hand remember.0 -
twowheelsonly wrote: »Hypothetical Question.... If the Scumbag that was arrested for the stabbings in Phoenix Park had his arm broken during his arrest would people be screaming about Police Brutality?
I certainly would, unless it was proven that such extreme force was actually necessary to arrest him.
I don't believe anybody "deserves" it purely as punishment or whaever. Corporal punishment is not legislated for in this country, ergo it is not acceptable. Period. Force is not acceptable unless it is necessary to make the arrest. Whether the person "had it coming" or not is 100% completely and totally irrelevant, as is whether he said something to aggravate the guard or anybody else. The only relevant question is whether it would have been possible to arrest him without breaking his arm. If the answer is yes, the force used was excessive. End of.0 -
It doesn't necessarily take a while lot of force to cause a hairline fracture. The arm pointed the wrong way while being dragged or something would be a feasible way to do it. I would expect that it broke some unexpected way like this, if it was due to some excessive force used it would have made a broken arm more obvious, if you know what I mean. You don't expect a broken arm from a small incident so might believe its just a sprain/bruise. Of course this is all speculation.hatrickpatrick wrote: »twowheelsonly wrote: »Hypothetical Question.... If the Scumbag that was arrested for the stabbings in Phoenix Park had his arm broken during his arrest would people be screaming about Police Brutality?
I certainly would, unless it was proven that such extreme force was actually necessary to arrest him.
I don't believe anybody "deserves" it purely as punishment or whaever. Corporal punishment is not legislated for in this country, ergo it is not acceptable. Period. Force is not acceptable unless it is necessary to make the arrest. Whether the person "had it coming" or not is 100% completely and totally irrelevant, as is whether he said something to aggravate the guard or anybody else. The only relevant question is whether it would have been possible to arrest him without breaking his arm. If the answer is yes, the force used was excessive. End of.0 -
Shure that makes it ok then GuardIt was probably just a small break that wasn't very painful. I've known many a person to have broken something and not realised it.
And shure it was only a wee bit of perjury and attempting to pervert the course of justice as well, nothing for people to get worked up about.:mad:
Well Garda Sean, how about, just for once, you condemn outright, without equivocation, assaulting and then attempting frame an innocent person.0 -
Did I spell "Guard" incorrectly? Nope, I don't think I did! If you want to be pedantic, the "word" I used is not Garda. The "word" that I intentionally and correctly used was "Guard". The official title of the "force" is "An Garda Síochána". It is not "The Gardaí" anymore than "The Guards" is.
A little lesson for you so. Garda is an Irish word. Guard is the English translation of Garda. And it is widely used in the vernacular. You will hear people say "call the Guards". Perhaps you might say "Call the Gardaí" or perhaps even "Call na nGardai" or maybe you're a Gaelgoir and say "Cur glaoch ar na nGardaí Síochána". Any of the first three are equally as correct or incorrect as each other.
I did not misspell a word. You are trying to be a smartar$e and failing miserably at it. If that is all you have to contribute, then I think you're time is done here.
The title Garda is used in both Irish and English, like many job titles in Ireland. Do you refer to the taoiseach as prime minister?So can you enlighten us there as to the standard procedure involved in releasing an arrested person? Is there a standard form to fill in? Does it have a large detailed section where the releasing Guard has to give his expert medical opinion as to the health of the person being released?
I wouldn't know about ignorance being bliss ... I suppose I just don't have any experience of being ignorant. They didn't teach it where I was educated. Should've gone to Templemore maybe?
It's called a custody record. Anyone with basic legal training could tell you about it. There is a section on medical complaints. There is also a notice of rights you receive giving you the right to request medical attention. Here's a little bit about it from citizens information.
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/arrests/treatment_in_custody.html0 -
Shure that makes it ok then Guard
And shure it was only a wee bit of perjury and attempting to pervert the course of justice as well, nothing for people to get worked up about.:mad:
Well Garda Sean, how about, just for once, you condemn outright, without equivocation, assaulting and then attempting frame an innocent person.
Did you read what I was responding to? The poster asked how he would not know he had a broken arm.0 -
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