Railfreight

Jamie2k9

Anyone know if 14 Timber test will operate tomorrow between Waterford-Carlow-Waterford?

J Cheever Loophole

Apologies for bumping an old thread, but as a long term lurker I can't help but notice the absence of any discussion recently around railfreight. Is that simply an accurate reflection on the lack of any new activity or is there anything at all to report, e.g. any new potential freight flows, increase / decrease in traffic, update on proposed longer freight trains?

Thanks in advance.

h.gricer

J Cheever Loophole wrote: »

Apologies for bumping an old thread, but as a long term lurker I can't help but notice the absence of any discussion recently around railfreight. Is that simply an accurate reflection on the lack of any new activity or is there anything at all to report, e.g. any new potential freight flows, increase / decrease in traffic, update on proposed longer freight trains?

Thanks in advance.

Discussion groups come and go, audiences move around and come and go, some discussion groups forums are ''in and out of fashion'
The internet forums on Irish Railways started around 2000, it was MSN message boards, then that died, then it was Yuku IrishRailwayNews, that became inactive and in fighting developed, and some contributors moved here to boards.ie including myself, discussions here have weaken here somewhat and now Facebook and twitter have taken over, yeah it's all happening on Facebook, there's now a group for just about everything from locomotives, to DMUs, Darts etc etc and of course railfreight, Irish Rail even have their own Twitter account, in time Facebook and Twitter, snapchat etc may go out of fashion and it'll be something else.
But I have a fondness for boards.ie for it's straight talk, shoot from the hip, you don't get that on FB, and that ''newsfeed'' drives me bonkers, discussion never takes off, and you do read a lot of nonsense and wild ideas on railfreight, all the other forums have gone, but boards.ie is still here, just about.
Kind Regards
h.gricer

andrewfaulk

J Cheever Loophole wrote: »

Apologies for bumping an old thread, but as a long term lurker I can't help but notice the absence of any discussion recently around railfreight. Is that simply an accurate reflection on the lack of any new activity or is there anything at all to report, e.g. any new potential freight flows, increase / decrease in traffic, update on proposed longer freight trains?

Thanks in advance.

There’s a good bit happening alright but boards in general seems to be getting quieter..

I think part of the reason that there’s not much discussion on freight is that there’s no new flows or major changes.. Last major service change that people seem to have noticed was back in 2013 when DFDS came back, so perhaps people are losing interest in the existing flows as they become routine.. After all, a well run service doesn’t tend to be particularly news worthy..

dowlingm

I keep thinking that the one potential game changer for railfreight could be Brexit - if a customs boundary becomes a reality, being able to bring 24 wagons north past a massive queue of lorries could be valuable indeed.

Doubly so if issues at Welsh ro-ro ports pushes more traffic to container shipping into North Wall and Belview (and the former IFI Cork but that still seems a long shot)

CarlosHarpic

dowlingm wrote: »

I keep thinking that the one potential game changer for railfreight could be Brexit - if a customs boundary becomes a reality, being able to bring 24 wagons north past a massive queue of lorries could be valuable indeed.

Doubly so if issues at Welsh ro-ro ports pushes more traffic to container shipping into North Wall and Belview (and the former IFI Cork but that still seems a long shot)

Why aren't Irish Rail developing a rail freight terminal at Rosslare. There has never been a greater opportunity than brexit for restoring railfreight.

tabbey

CarlosHarpic wrote: »

Why aren't Irish Rail developing a rail freight terminal at Rosslare. There has never been a greater opportunity than brexit for restoring railfreight.

Rosslare is a roll on - roll off port.

Large numbers of cars mostly from France are delivered for onward delivery by road, on truck & trailer units.
I always thought IR should have bid for this business,at least for deliveries beyond Dublin.

The main difficulty is that road delivery gets to the door of the motor dealers.

The truck and container business generally involves HGVs going from an Irish meat processor to markets in France, Italy or Greece.

end of the road

tabbey wrote: »

Rosslare is a roll on - roll off port.

i'm sure it could be modified for rail freight as well if there was business to be got?

L1011

end of the road wrote: »

i'm sure it could be modified for rail freight as well if there was business to be got?

Realistically no. Container business goes to Belview and will continue to do so. Complete reconstruction to add container docks, gantries etc wouldn't be viable

andrewfaulk

L1011 wrote: »

Realistically no. Container business goes to Belview and will continue to do so. Complete reconstruction to add container docks, gantries etc wouldn't be viable

Container operation no longer requires all of the above..Containers can be carried on Ro/Ro vessels using a thing called a maafi cassette which is loaded with a reachstacker.. This set up was used for a short while in Rosslare by Cobelfret before they moved their service to Dublin..

I like the idea of Rosslare handling freight but I just can’t see the demand being there in terms of volume

Isambard

L1011 wrote: »

Realistically no. Container business goes to Belview and will continue to do so. Complete reconstruction to add container docks, gantries etc wouldn't be viable

plus Rosslare could not accommodate the size of vessels that a freight service requires.

Losty Dublin

L1011 wrote: »

Realistically no. Container business goes to Belview and will continue to do so. Complete reconstruction to add container docks, gantries etc wouldn't be viable

Actually there are plans to redevelop and expand Rosslare. Quite when or if it ever comes to is another story

IE 222

With the topic of traffic congestion coming up on political radars lately it would be interesting to see if any of the great problem solvers in Leinster House would even mention if better use of rail freight would help ease some of the congestion. I'm not suggestion a reduction in trucks will solve the issues but it would help.

Dublin port keeps growing but the roads around Dublin can't support much more growth. Should some shipping traffic be forced out of Dublin and transferred via rail from Cork or Waterford.

dowlingm

The other problem with Rosslare is getting a 201 there from either direction

Harcourt Street

Not entirely blocked are they? They can travel there in "emergencies" according to the Network Statement.

Adds: Well that was in the 2017 Network Statement, checking the 2018 Network Statement it directs you to the Weekly Circular for restrictions...

IE 222

I presume their cleared to Gorey with the Belmond traveling down last year. They can work further south in an "emergency" so wouldn't require much to allow access and freight services will be speed restricted to 50mph anyway.

dowlingm

Harcourt Street wrote: »

Not entirely blocked are they? They can travel there in "emergencies" according to the Network Statement.

Adds: Well that was in the 2017 Network Statement, checking the 2018 Network Statement it directs you to the Weekly Circular for restrictions...

Emergencies isn't hauling 24 wagons behind them...

Even if Rosslare did add some LoLo capacity it still may not attract enough freight forwarder attention to justify running the max load factor trains that IE consider justify operating a service.

There was a ports study done in 2006 but presumably that is far out of date now.
http://www.dttas.ie/sites/default/files/node/add/content-publication/Information%20Paper%20based%20on%20report%20of%20Fisher%20Associates%20consultants.pdf

andrewfaulk

dowlingm wrote: »

Emergencies isn't hauling 24 wagons behind them...

Even if Rosslare did add some LoLo capacity it still may not attract enough freight forwarder attention to justify running the max load factor trains that IE consider justify operating a service.

There was a ports study done in 2006 but presumably that is far out of date now.
http://www.dttas.ie/sites/default/files/node/add/content-publication/Information%20Paper%20based%20on%20report%20of%20Fisher%20Associates%20consultants.pdf

18 is the max not 24, and I think even 18 would be a push on the Rosslare line.. plus it’s not gauge cleared so you would have to use the pockets for high cubes, so max would be 12 wagons..

IE don’t care about the load factor, they’ll charter a train to someone regardless of the load factor.. Whether that someone can then make the service pay is what decides whether it will happen or not..
And Rosslare would be a hard slog to make pay at 12 wagons..

The report is well out of date at this stage but what it does highlight is how the number of ports handling unit cargo is Ireland is reducing..
From the list it has handling unit cargo, three at least no longer do

Drogheda(Lo/Lo and Ro/Ro)
Limerick(Lo/Lo)
Dun Laoghaire(Ro/Ro)

So if the trend in the past 12 years is for consolidation, it would be going against that trend
for Rosslare to start handling Lo/Lo..

roundymac

Was'nt there trials last year with 24 wagons, what was the outcome from those?

Jamie2k9

roundymac wrote: »

Was'nt there trials last year with 24 wagons, what was the outcome from those?

Yes and there was one planned last month but not sure if it went ahead. These things take a lot of time to progress.

andrewfaulk

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Yes and there was one planned last month but not sure if it went ahead. These things take a lot of time to progress.

None planned for last month, next one is 2 weeks time but with 18 wagons only..

The tests have been delayed a couple of times by a few issues but the 4 remaining should hopefully be easy enough to progress

Jamie2k9

andrewfaulk wrote: »

None planned for last month, next one is 2 weeks time but with 18 wagons only..

The tests have been delayed a couple of times by a few issues but the 4 remaining should hopefully be easy enough to progress

Your right, could of sworn I saw one in a recent circular but have checked an no. Is the change to 18 going to be the new proposed size and whats the status with the timber.

andrewfaulk

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Your right, could of sworn I saw one in a recent circular but have checked an no. Is the change to 18 going to be the new proposed size and whats the status with the timber.

That’s 18 container flats so at the current limit but the info is required to provide info on how the trains perform now versus how the 27 and 24 wagon trials performed..

No Idea on timber lengths, in theory they could operate at 14 now and still be shorter than 18 flats or 12 CPWs..

Jamie2k9

andrewfaulk wrote: »

That’s 18 container flats so at the current limit but the info is required to provide info on how the trains perform now versus how the 27 and 24 wagon trials performed..

No Idea on timber lengths, in theory they could operate at 14 now and still be shorter than 18 flats or 12 CPWs..

Yes 18 the current limit, I knew this as well and still asked the stupid question.

I wasn't sure whether to put this here or "train porn" but a good insight into the "modernisation" of reaifreight in the UK.

Well, before Beeching chopped off all the secondary routes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Duoq7esgf5s

GM228

081 arrived into Ballina this evening with the DFDS liner, bringing the curtain to a close on that operation.

h.gricer

GM228 wrote: »

081 arrived into Ballina this evening with the DFDS liner, bringing the curtain to a close on that operation.

Not sure it's the final curtain, rumour has it could be possibly one more next week.
Regards
hg

Del.Monte

Won't be long now until it's just the Tara Mines traffic.

Jamie2k9

h.gricer wrote: »

Not sure it's the final curtain, rumour has it could be possibly one more next week.
Regards
hg

Ends tomorrow apparently.

tabbey

GM228 wrote: »

081 arrived into Ballina this evening with the DFDS liner, bringing the curtain to a close on that operation.

All good things come to an end, but this was unexpected.

Has the DFDS traffic transferred to road, or did a factory close? Was it Coca Cola?

Is there other freight traffic to / from Waterford? or is it the end for the Belvue "siding"?

h.gricer

tabbey wrote: »

All good things come to an end, but this was unexpected.

Has the DFDS traffic transferred to road, or did a factory close? Was it Coca Cola?

Is there other freight traffic to / from Waterford? or is it the end for the Belvue "siding"?

https://www.rte.ie/news/munster/2018/0528/966660-waterford-port/

Jamie2k9

tabbey wrote: »

All good things come to an end, but this was unexpected.

Has the DFDS traffic transferred to road, or did a factory close? Was it Coca Cola?

Is there other freight traffic to / from Waterford? or is it the end for the Belvue "siding"?

Timber but not to Belivew. They line is bran new and mos of the signals area as well so I can't see it been takeout out of use anytime soon.

tabbey

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

They line is bran new and mos of the signals area as well so I can't see it been takeout out of use anytime soon.

I hope not but they did not wait long before closing the freight yard at North Esk, Cork.

Jamie2k9

tabbey wrote: »

I hope not but they did not wait long before closing the freight yard at North Esk, Cork.

They don't own Belview.

Stephen15

So is that the end of container traffic on the IE network?

davidlacey

Stephen15 wrote: »

So is that the end of container traffic on the IE network?

IWT still there,

davidlacey

I was going to stay going quiet but I am going to rant.

This is just another example of the governments lack of interest in Irish railfreight.

Let's not forget...

Major Freight services lost includes

Ammonia Trains from Shelton Abbey, Wicklow – Cork (due to closure of fertiliser plant)
Bagged Cement Nationwide
Beer Kegs Nationwide
Bell Liner from Mayo – Waterford
Gypsum from Kingscourt – Dublin
Bulk Cement from Platin (near Drogheda) and Castlemungret (near Limerick) cement factories to cement silos at Sligo Quay, Athenry, Cabra (Dublin), Cork, Waterford, Tullamore and Belfast
Other losses included: Liners, Fertilisers, Grain, Tar, Scrap Metal, Molasses and Coal. The last bulk cement flow to operate in Ireland (Castlemungret – Waterford) ended in December 2009 along with the Kilmastulla Quarry – Castlemungret Shale traffic, despite making profits in the region of €1.3 million in 2006.

Yes some unavoidable but some certainly avoidable with adequate subsidy. How do the Irish government think we will drop our greenhouse gas emissions without an effective and busy railfreight sector? What encouragement do IE have to chase new business when they are up against a totally upto date road network which was disproportionately funded during the boom while railfreight was left to rot.

I used to think IE were to blame but the government have no foresight when it comes to railfreight, this afterall is a semi state company. We can all give the but we are only a small Ireland excuse but railfreight works if the infrastructure and want is there. Look at Tara mines!

I just think today's development is ridiculous, totally avoidable and just another shambles in this country which is pro road and pro haulier.

Stephen15

davidlacey wrote: »

IWT still there,

Forgot about them.

It seems freight trains here in Ireland go slower than passenger trains. Are freight trains made to go slow down through stations here in Ireland? I rememeber standing on platforms on the continent and when a freight train would pass through it would nearly blow you away never remember getting this effect in Ireland by passing freight trains.

Jamie2k9

Stephen15 wrote: »

Forgot about them.

It seems freight trains here in Ireland go slower than passenger trains. Are freight trains made to go slow down through stations here in Ireland? I rememeber standing on platforms on the continent and when a freight train would pass through it would nearly blow you away never remember getting this effect in Ireland by passing freight trains.

50mph is the maximum speed.

Stephen15

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

50mph is the maximum speed.

That's riddiculously slow. Why can't freight go as fast as passenger traffic it can on the continent.

Odelay

Stephen15 wrote: »

That's riddiculously slow. Why can't freight go as fast as passenger traffic it can on the continent.

Freight tends to weigh a lot more.

whisky_galore

davidlacey wrote: »

I just think today's development is ridiculous, totally avoidable and just another shambles in this country which is pro road and pro haulier.

No imagination or get-up-and-go in IE, just waiting for the day the pension rolls in.

Govt is very laissez faire esp. the current lot, plenty photo opps when the new stretch of motorway or by-pass is built though. Pats on the back all around.

The public seem to be more interested in making greenways out of everything, regardless of suitability.

The Irish Road Hauliers Assoc have got far too much clout. Likewise SIMI and the AA.

davidlacey

Stephen15 wrote: »

That's riddiculously slow. Why can't freight go as fast as passenger traffic it can on the continent.

We are in the age of Health and safety OCD

davidlacey

whisky_galore wrote: »

No imagination or get-up-and-go in IE, just waiting for the day the pension rolls in.

Govt is very laissez faire esp. the current lot, plenty photo opps when the new stretch of motorway or by-pass is built though. Pats on the back all around.

The public seem to be more interested in making greenways out of everything, regardless of suitability.

The Irish Road Hauliers Assoc have got far too much clout. Likewise SIMI and the AA.

100% agree and I hate being the pessimist when I reply to people's comments on the facebook group but there is no going back for Irish railfreight. What happens when Tara mines dries up? Bit of timber and some containers by IWT. Token freight if I'm honest. It's laughable when IE release statements say that freight tonnage is up when railfreight accounts for 1% or less of total tonnage carried in Ireland per year.

h.gricer

tabbey wrote: »

I hope not but they did not wait long before closing the freight yard at North Esk, Cork.

Belview Port will still see an occasional train, Waterford Port to Portlaoise ''steel'' train, (imported rails) runs a few times a year, trains run for a few weeks at a time, the empty usually exPortlaoise on Fridays, returning exBelview Port laden steel to Portlaoise on Saturdays, a few trains ran in January and February, the next consignment possibly in a couple of months over the winter or maybe sooner as required.
Regards
hg

The_Wanderer

It was officially announced by DFDS that their container train between Ballina and Waterford's Belview Port is to cease running from Tuesday 5th June 2018. The press releases stated today (29th May) is the last train, but a Waterford to Ballina is scheduled to operate on the 30th May and the final train from Ballina to Waterford on the 5th June 2018.

The penultimate train from Ballina, the 1105 Ballina - Waterford is pictured crossing the Commons Bridge at Portarlington with 081 in charge of a fully loaded train.

Click the image bellow to see the full sized image.

Salmon Leap

What was the official reason given for the withdrawal?

h.gricer

Salmon Leap wrote: »

What was the official reason given for the withdrawal?

https://www.rte.ie/news/munster/2018/0528/966660-waterford-port/

IE 222

What current BULK road traffic could easily be transferred to rail.

Is there any hope to Cement ect return.

Do IE compete for business. Do the port companies push rail over road.

With the economy growning could IE take a risk and introduce their own service starting with a Dublin - Cork flow. They might not appeal to companies shipping 1 container but surely they could offer good competition were 3 or more need to be shipped.

Isambard

Dublin and Cork both have their own container ports.