Railfreight

CIE

rainbowdash wrote: »

I reckon Irish Rail will go Railcar only and ditch all their locos, except a few for towing, maintenance etc.

Then its goodnight to freight. After that intercity will be abolished.

We will be left with DART, Dublin commuter, maybe Cork Commuter and Ennis - Athenry as nobody would want to see the west suffer.

It looks like Gort - Tuam is getting a motorway, so within a generation Cork - Sligo will be motorway most or all the way.

Thats the whole county linked by road and buses can be switched around based on supply and demand.

Take OAP's, kids and student fares off the trains and how many passengers would there be?

So you're saying that Ireland is de-modernising while the rich countries of the EU continue to modernise on the country's back? Those other rich countries rely a lot on railways.

No country that relies on roads and motorways wholly for ground transport gets anywhere at all. If Ireland gets hit by a colossal blizzard next winter, forget about roads—the whole country will be utterly paralysed. Trains are better at getting through rough winter weather like that and don't slip off their tracks like a road vehicle would be slipping around on the asphalt (unless of course you don't prepare for it like Deutsche Bahn failed to last winter with their OHLE frozen over and extremely low availability of snow ploughs for the railways). I cannot think of a single superpower that has eschewed railways for all-road transport.

corktina wrote: »

"The long and winding road, that leaves from your door..." thats the trouble with Rail...it dosn't leave from your door whereas road does...

you won't change that however much you might invest in Rail...it's as outmoded as the Canal and the Packhorse and will follow them into obscurity if it doesn't concentrate on what it does best...(Heavy Haul freight (almost none in this Country), Fast long distance passenger (precious little in this Country) and Suburban/Commuter (Mostly Dublin and little bit Cork )

Uh-oh...nonsequiturs out in force; someone's railway-hatred running out of control and even worse, nonsequiturs that agree with the old Stormont government as already noted.

So. No transport mode is of any value unless it leaves from your front doorstep, is that it? Well, that includes fixed bus routes, HGVs and the vast majority of local lorry transport, all forms of water transport (unless you have an active canal or other navigable waterway right next to your house that is), all forms of air transport (unless you have a helipad, runway or airship tether in your yard) and every tram that does not run past your front door. Railways still have their niche to fulfill in a modern society, and yes, it takes investment and not closure, just as motorways do not spring up out of the ground fully-formed either. It's very silly, with all due respect, to continually ascribe attributes and criteria to railways that they never performed in the past and never were intended to perform, just like the very many other forms of transport that also run from fixed origin to fixed destination and yet society continues to depend on heavily.

I wonder what would happen if someone told the operators of the Panama Canal and Suez Canal that their waterways are "outmoded". I suspect heavy laughter would ensue. Same applies to the Berlin-Spandau canal and the many other active canals of the country that currently bosses Ireland around...(never mind many other countries that use both rivers and canals that connect them for barge traffic; I suppose we ought to close the Mississippi River and the Shannon River to shipping as well).

As for pack horses/donkeys/mules, they still go where automobiles cannot go. As do camels. And sledge dogs. And if Ireland ever gets hit by an EMP weapon that destroys most of its electronics (upon which most modern transport depends), then the man with the most horses wins, as does the RPSI if it can deploy its steam engines quickly enough...

corktina

I never said any of that...the point is the Train will lose out to the car or truck that goes door to door. The rest of it you made into a rant that does nothing to negate this point...

As for being a rail-hater, far from it, I'd just like to see the bits rail CAN do best concentrated on and the rest consigned to history. This way is salvation for IE..the current way is a one-way trip to Hammond Lane.

dowlingm

davidlacey wrote: »

Its still absoutely ridiculous the sligo quay closed during a time of boom in this country but IE were probably to pre occupied with increasing passenger numbers and trying to offload some of the lossmaking freight such as beer, oil, tar,molasses, cement, shale etc...

Fixed your post. Also, presumably the molasses movements are gone with the sugar industry and as a former resident within 1km of Kent Station I'm not sorry to see ammonia gone by the wayside.

CIE

corktina wrote: »

I never said any of that...the point is the Train will lose out to the car or truck that goes door to door. The rest of it you made into a rant that does nothing to negate this point...

As for being a rail-hater, far from it, I'd just like to see the bits rail CAN do best concentrated on and the rest consigned to history. This way is salvation for IE..the current way is a one-way trip to Hammond Lane

Aw, stop complaining; you did say it. The vast majority of freight does not travel door to door, whatever was meant by that. There are distribution centres where it is sorted and it travels locally in delivery-oriented small lorries; rail can do this far better than multiple HGVs, never mind the lower rolling efficiency of HGVs (rubber tyres versus steel wheels, the latter far more heat-efficient). And where you have freight sidings on railways, the freight does indeed go "door to door" (meaning business to business). I've yet to see any HGV deliver the majority of essentials to people's homes; that would be disastrous, especially where retail shops remain the best option.

There is no "salvation for IE" because it is state-owned and the state has a conflict of interest between road and rail due to controlling both modes. The real salvation for rail per se would be to actually privatise the freight operations, which would lead to actual incentive to put best practice into effect. The state can do what it pleases because they are not truly worried about profiting from a profitable enterprise. They will continue to run Ireland into the ground via demodernisation and balkanisation all because Germany wants no competition. (And I would not see the many people emigrating once more due to lack of jobs disagreeing with that POV.)

dowlingm wrote: »

davidlacey wrote: »

It's still absoutely ridiculous the Sligo quay closed during a time of boom in this country, but IE were probably to pre-occupied with increasing passenger numbers and trying to offload some of the (dirty versus allegedly lossmaking) freight such as beer, oil, tar, molasses, cement, shale etc...

...Also, presumably the molasses movements are gone with the sugar industry and as a former resident within 1km of Kent Station I'm not sorry to see ammonia gone by the wayside

IOW, you're not sorry to see business gone by the wayside? Countries do not get fed by ideology; they get fed by business. No freight business is loss-making, unless of course you agree with creative accounting done by government officials. The sugar industry was ordered out of business by the heavily-ideological and Soviet-influenced European Union.

Losty Dublin

The molasses was imported into Ireland, if I am thinking right, but certainly it had no connection to the sugar beet trains that ran until 2005 after the round of EU subsidies ended for beet growers in Ireland.

I have to agree with Corktina, much of the traffic isn't rail carried simply because rail can't do what most cargo needs to get to while other markets that it catered for are not in business anymore (Bell, IFI, Shale, Asahi, Cigarettes to name a few). Even a long term customer in Guinness/Diageo moves a lot of it's beer via sub contractor and sole trader direct from Dublin rather than the old model of into Heuston and onward to local depots; it's own dynamic and needs moved on for the time being.

Those customers left found that when it came to being charged a break even rate as per EU laws, they could get the sole trader truck driver haggled down to buggery since it's market was liberalised a la taxi-ing. A lot of people will point at Irish Rail and demand they chase new loads but in truth, there are few markets suitable to carry and even then they have to compete with a lot of undercutting from hauliers. I do feel that rail freight will return again in the future but it won't be anytime soon and it will be only when the customer is willing to trust it over road haulage and they choose it for it's overall benefits.

CIE

Losty Dublin wrote: »

The molasses was imported into Ireland, if I am thinking right, but certainly it had no connection to the sugar beet trains that ran until 2005 after the round of EU subsidies ended for beet growers in Ireland.

I have to agree with Corktina, much of the traffic isn't rail carried simply because rail can't do what most cargo needs to get to while other markets that it catered for are not in business anymore (Bell, IFI, Shale, Asahi, Cigarettes to name a few). Even a long term customer in Guinness/Diageo moves a lot of it's beer via sub contractor and sole trader direct from Dublin rather than the old model of into Heuston and onward to local depots; it's own dynamic and needs moved on for the time being.

Those customers left found that when it came to being charged a break even rate as per EU laws, they could get the sole trader truck driver haggled down to buggery since its market was liberalised a la taxi-ing. A lot of people will point at Irish Rail and demand they chase new loads but in truth, there are few markets suitable to carry and even then they have to compete with a lot of undercutting from hauliers. I do feel that rail freight will return again in the future but it won't be anytime soon and it will be only when the customer is willing to trust it over road haulage and they choose it for its overall benefits.

So in essence, all that's being said here is that private haulage is more reasonable than state-owned haulage. If rail freight does not come back any time soon, it's not due to want of private investment in it; the government has banned that.

Sligo Quay

corktina wrote: »

Thats not door to door....it has to be delivered to the end customer by truck....double handling....

Im talking about door to door for supplers, there will nearly always be double handling at the end result for customers, its not like the esso oil had to be delivered to a railhead by truck, then loaded on to a train = thats double handling, esso loaded its cargo directly into the oiltanks as the depot was rail connected, then when it arrived at Sligo Quay, the cargo was directly pumped into the storage tanks at Sligo Quay. If it arrived at Sligo Quay, pumped into roadtankers, then a journey to storage tanks by truck - thats double handling. It was railhead to railhead without the use of roadtankers, thats very rare in the Emerald Isle.
Corktina you sound like some of the cantankerous truckers that I have to deal with, day in and day out;):D

davidlacey

dowlingm wrote: »

davidlacey wrote: »

Its still absoutely ridiculous the sligo quay closed during a time of boom in this country but IE were probably to pre occupied with increasing passenger numbers and trying to offload some of the lossmaking freight such as beer, oil, tar,molasses, cement, shale etc...

Fixed your post. Also, presumably the molasses movements are gone with the sugar industry and as a former resident within 1km of Kent Station I'm not sorry to see ammonia gone by the wayside.

Loss making is that soundbite IE like to use these days to justify many of the freight flows closing, yes many closed due to companies that went out of business but there are countless that have been moved to road due to a more convinent and possibly cheaper option. How bagged and palletised cement was lossmaking is beyond me as we were in a housing boom and demand was high and many of the flows were closed in 2002 even before the bubble was at its highest! What have IE done to buck the trend , absoutely nothing, with petrol prices at a high price , why have they not marketed rail freight? Its not just a question of government intervention, IE needs to balance its books and sitting watching its rail freight division dissappear is not going to help them. Its simply not part of their business plans and if they are just waiting for freight flows that will make a tidy profit for them they will be waiting a long long time!bOnce all freight flows are gone I think that will be the end all areas in Irelands network will be rationalised and any opportunity will of it returning will be too costly and it will be lost for ever! Irish rail need to take ideas from other companies such as stobart who run a very tidy operation, yes i understand they are not a semi state company but i believe irish rail have to model themselves as a private sector company as the government wont be bailing them
Out

corktina

Sligo Quay wrote: »

Im talking about door to door for supplers, there will nearly always be double handling at the end result for customers, its not like the esso oil had to be delivered to a railhead by truck, then loaded on to a train = thats double handling, esso loaded its cargo directly into the oiltanks as the depot was rail connected, then when it arrived at Sligo Quay, the cargo was directly pumped into the storage tanks at Sligo Quay. If it arrived at Sligo Quay, pumped into roadtankers, then a journey to storage tanks by truck - thats double handling. It was railhead to railhead without the use of roadtankers, thats very rare in the Emerald Isle.
Corktina you sound like some of the cantankerous truckers that I have to deal with, day in and day out;):D

I see the Oil Tankers pass here every day heading to and from Whitegate. The Oil Distributers collect their own supplies and then off load in their own depots into the delivery tankers. They dont seem to have storage tanks.

Losty Dublin

CIE wrote: »

So in essence, all that's being said here is that private haulage is more reasonable than state-owned haulage. If rail freight does not come back any time soon, it's not due to want of private investment in it; the government has banned that.

Not exactly. What you have are two different products and two different business models competing for the same business so to some extent it's apples and lemons. Rail freight can't trade at a loss and it has fixed costs to pay that road freight doesn't. Also, road haulage is far more cut throat and flexible in general but rail wins out on fixed loads, like zinc ore or loads containers from Ballina to the ports. The just companies go with what is better for them, which tends to be road.

rainbowdash

CIE wrote: »

So you're saying that Ireland is de-modernising while the rich countries of the EU continue to modernise on the country's back? Those other rich countries rely a lot on railways.

No country that relies on roads and motorways wholly for ground transport gets anywhere at all. If Ireland gets hit by a colossal blizzard next winter, forget about roads—the whole country will be utterly paralysed. Trains are better at getting through rough winter weather like that and don't slip off their tracks like a road vehicle would be slipping around on the asphalt (unless of course you don't prepare for it like Deutsche Bahn failed to last winter with their OHLE frozen over and extremely low availability of snow ploughs for the railways). I cannot think of a single superpower that has eschewed railways for all-road transport..

in 10 years time we could be looking at driverless luxury double deck double car coaches with lightweight materials travelling limerick Dublin etc. leaving every 20 minutes with 100 passenger seats, powered by batteries charged by the wind.

That's not demodernising, if and when the next major energy innovation comes along Irish rail can forget it.

The distances are just too short and the population centres too small, with trains travelling around mountains on routes from the 1850's instead of through them.

As far as the blizzards are concerned, stockpile extra salt for the once in 20 year event.

I would love to see a dynamic railway system but I just can't see it in Ireland now that the major motorways are complete.

dowlingm

corktina wrote: »

I see the Oil Tankers pass here every day heading to and from Whitegate. The Oil Distributers collect their own supplies and then off load in their own depots into the delivery tankers. They dont seem to have storage tanks.

10 miles of track from Midleton to Whitegate and... I'll get me coat :D:D:D:D

end of the road

rainbowdash wrote: »

As far as the blizzards are concerned, stockpile extra salt for the once in 20 year event.

mwehh, would be no good if it was a bad one no matter how much salt we get.

rainbowdash wrote: »

I would love to see a dynamic railway system but I just can't see it in Ireland now that the major motorways are complete.

the reason why we won't have one is not to do with population densities distances or motor ways, it is because the will just isn't there because of the governments conflict of interest. we could have a proper railway with proper investment, but the government and past governments have and had a vendetta against the railways. sure we got new trains and so on but the speeds haven't improved because if they did improve emencely along with reasonable fairs people would flock to the railways or flock back to them from the motor ways which would mean a loss in revenue because people wouldn't be using the toles.

CIE

rainbowdash wrote: »

in 10 years time we could be looking at driverless luxury double deck double car coaches with lightweight materials travelling limerick Dublin etc. leaving every 20 minutes with 100 passenger seats, powered by batteries charged by the wind.

That's not demodernising, if and when the next major energy innovation comes along Irish rail can forget it.

The distances are just too short and the population centres too small, with trains travelling around mountains on routes from the 1850's instead of through them.

As far as the blizzards are concerned, stockpile extra salt for the once in 20 year event.

I would love to see a dynamic railway system but I just can't see it in Ireland now that the major motorways are complete

Eh? Major motorways have been complete in many countries for decades...and not a single one of those countries ever dismantled their railway system; rather, those railway systems have made a comeback and even expanded.

Extra salt does not save roads from blizzards. Those roads close until you can plough them and then salt them, in that order. Railways may need to be ploughed if inactive for a period of time, but they don't need salt for traction and quite often keep running through many blizzards. Once I was stuck on a motorway for close to three hours because a number of HGVs had overturned due to icy conditions; if their freight were on the rails instead, no blockages and I could have made it home at a decent hour.

The vast majority of railways in Ireland are actually rather straight and travel on mostly level ground, so where did you dream up Alpine-style mountain railways?

Distance arguments are a canard. Unless that is you are trying to make a case for no-build of motorways as well? because motorways need to be justified by population density too. Every mile of motorway you build means fifty acres of land gone, most likely forever.

BTW, I'd never get in a driverless train; I'm even wary of them as airport shuttles. Even if your fantasy "driverless double-deck train" et cetera became feasible in a decade, IE would not invest in it. (I do wonder how much Irish money goes towards Deutsche Bahn that does not get reported though.)

losty dublin wrote: »

Not exactly. What you have are two different products and two different business models competing for the same business so to some extent it's apples and lemons. Rail freight can't trade at a loss and it has fixed costs to pay that road freight doesn't. Also, road haulage is far more cut throat and flexible in general but rail wins out on fixed loads, like zinc ore or loads containers from Ballina to the ports. The just companies go with what is better for them, which tends to be road.

It would certainly "tend to be" roads if the government's dictat is to invest more in roads than in rails, especially where they control both. Your "cut-throat" trucking firms would not be getting too far if roads infrastructure investment were more privatised, and private railways would be able to compete better with them especially if their own infrastructure network were larger.

foggy_lad

davidlacey wrote: »

How bagged and palletised cement was lossmaking is beyond me as we were in a housing boom and demand was high and many of the flows were closed in 2002 even before the bubble was at its highest!

Moving the bagged cement was never the problem, handling it was the expensive part of the equation with loading onto lorries then onto trains then unloading to a yard and more loading onto lorries for delivery to the builders providers etc.

There were just too many "middlemen" needing to get paid for handling. This was not an issue when men were paid Tuppence an hour and could be sacked for spitting or having their hands in their pockets but since Ireland has entered the last century the days of freight and inter-city rail have been numbered.

end of the road

foggy_lad wrote: »

men were paid Tuppence an hour and could be sacked for spitting or having their hands in their pockets

your watching to much thomas the tank engine or the railway children mate. that sort of stuff never happened, men weren't sacked for spitting or having their hands in their pockets, their wasn't porters or people to carry your trunk or any of that. its all factually incorrect.

foggy_lad wrote: »

since Ireland has entered the last century the days of freight and inter-city rail have been numbered.

yeah, because of bad management by the state controlled rail operator. maybe if the railways had never been nationalised such bad management wouldn't have happened but we will never know as none of us were around before nationalisation of the railways.

bk

Wow, really, we are going to spend hundreds of millions on rail, just in case it might snow for a few days!!! :eek:

I really have heard it all now.

Or you know we could just buy snow tires for our cars like they do up in Norway, madness I know!!

corktina

dowlingm wrote: »

10 miles of track from Midleton to Whitegate and... I'll get me coat :D:D:D:D

plus another very hilly 25 miles from Newmarket to Abbeyfeale and reinstating a few old lines....

corktina

end of the road wrote: »

your watching to much thomas the tank engine or the railway children mate. that sort of stuff never happened, men weren't sacked for spitting or having their hands in their pockets, their wasn't porters or people to carry your trunk or any of that. its all factually incorrect.

you want to check your facts there...people were transported to Australia for stealing a few turnips and there were indeed many Porters employed to hump articles to and from trains

Victor

dowlingm wrote: »

10 miles of track from Midleton to Whitegate and... I'll get me coat :D:D:D:D

Zero miles from Tivoli to the railway or from Dublin or Galway docks to the railway.

CIE wrote: »

Distance arguments are a canard. Unless that is you are trying to make a case for no-build of motorways as well?

For many products, rail isn't practical - up to a distance of 300km, trucks will beat it for most of them.

If you want a rail freight revival, put every single new factory next to the railway.

Every mile of motorway you build means fifty acres of land gone, most likely forever.

Typical motorways aren't 130 metres wide, more like 25-30 metres from fence to fence.

I do wonder how much Irish money goes towards Deutsche Bahn that does not get reported though.

Pardon?

CIE

Still not getting it, I see. When the government builds more roads than rails, whatever is "practical" is 100 percent under government control. Unless private enterprises are allowed to build and maintain railways that is. The more government control, the less flexibility any transport mode can exhibit.

I did overestimate badly though; but fifteen acres per mile assuming a 40-metre roadway is quite a big loss. A railway still can move a lot more freight over a far narrower footprint. The government is keeping that from the public and from business though.

corktina

only if that freight exists, it doesnt. What railway lines do you envisage the private sector building?

Sligo Quay

corktina wrote: »

I see the Oil Tankers pass here every day heading to and from Whitegate. The Oil Distributers collect their own supplies and then off load in their own depots into the delivery tankers. They dont seem to have storage tanks.

Well whatever, every situation is different, Irish Rail have massive storage tanks in their fuel depot on Alexandra rd, depending on individual business needs, sometimes storage tanks are need for stockpiling or whatever, I know Reynolds Logistics have the current contract for the fuel oil, it doesn't go by rail anymore, I know Cold Chon bitumen at Sligo Quay where never consult when the line along deep water was lifted, it was lifted to facilitate drainage works and was never put back, Cold Chon was not too happy about that, speaking of storage tanks, take look here http://www.coldchon.ie/ it should be about facilitating the customers needs, sometimes rail does it better than road, somtimes road does it better than rail, its getting the balance right without any hidden agenda.

corktina

That Irish Rail don't move their own fuel by Rail to their depots around the Country speaks volumes about Railfreight surely.

Judgement Day

corktina wrote: »

That Irish Rail don't move their own fuel by Rail to their depots around the Country speaks volumes about Railfreight surely.

No it speaks volumes about CIE's mentality. They were even sending the weekly circulars out by courier at one stage - may still be. Then they were hiring a road courier to carry the Fastrack instead of the train on the Rosslare route.....do you see where all this is heading....a virtual railway.....:rolleyes:

end of the road

CIE, bastardising the irish railways into oblivian since 1945. our mission is simple, it is that of self destruction slowly but surely until theirs nothing left, we don't want it but nobody else can have it.

steamengine

bk wrote: »

Wow, really, we are going to spend hundreds of millions on rail, just in case it might snow for a few days!!! :eek:

I really have heard it all now.

Or you know we could just buy snow tires for our cars like they do up in Norway, madness I know!!

Some posters think that rail enthusiasts just back rail out of some Thomas the tank engine unfulfilled fantasy they dream off. We had a Rosslare / Waterford rail thread running here for quite a while, in which we put the case as to why this line should not have been shut down. I am glad to say An Taisce have referred to the very points we were making, plus a reference to rail freight - the topic being discussed here. Scroll down to Paragraph 1.4.4

http://www.antaisce.org/Portals/5/Rio20/Rio%20submission%20UN%2031%2010%2011.pdf


The second link shows that the justification for rail goes a little deeper than a snow drift in that road transport does nothing to ease our carbon emissions. As stated before an electrified rail network, powered as much as possible by wind energy and/or nuclear - achieves exactly that. All this is proven technology, no science fiction fantasies about super duper batteries that as yet havn't been developed to any practical level for heavy road transport over long distances.

http://irishrailwaynews.multiply.com/journal/item/4668

davidlacey

UCD Economist colm mccarthy also thinks that us rail enthusiasts are just living our Thomas the tank engine fantasies , i remember the prime time programme last year about the WRC and the merits and demerits of it and he stated that it must be because of childhood fantasies behind some peoples reasoning of keeping some of these non-profit lines open. He maybe a good economist but when he speaks of railways, he may as well be on the island of sodor.

end of the road

davidlacey wrote: »

UCD Economist colm mccarthy also thinks that us rail enthusiasts are just living our Thomas the tank engine fantasies , i remember the prime time programme last year about the WRC and the merits and demerits of it and he stated that it must be because of childhood fantasies behind some peoples reasoning of keeping some of these non-profit lines open. He maybe a good economist but when he speaks of railways, he may as well be on the island of sodor.

he's a reincarnation of tod andrews. andrews and him = cut from the same cloth. he should stick to looking at ways to make the railways at least break even not looking to shut them down and mock those who support railways. not everyone who supports railways is an enthusiast. at least enthusiasts know how the railway works and worked in the past along with what was done wrong. they can offer suggestions on what to do and what not to do.

corktina

On the other side of the coin though, many enthuiasts are unrealistic in their support of railways come-what-may . I'm an Enthuiast but I don't want to see money wasted on a hopeless case line just so I can watch the trains go by.

bk

But was he not correct about the WRC? An awful waste of money that has done a great deal to damage the future of rail in Ireland.

davidlacey

bk wrote: »

But was he not correct about the WRC? An awful waste of money that has done a great deal to damage the future of rail in Ireland.

He was right but saying people must have be back relieving their childhood fantasies of trains is wrong! Shot at enthuasaists

corktina

but i feel many enthusiasts are exactly like that!

foggy_lad

davidlacey wrote: »

He was right but saying people must have be back relieving their childhood fantasies of trains is wrong! Shot at enthuasaists

Who lobbied asnd fought for the WRC to be rebuilt and reopened? the people didn't want it or they would be using it! enthusuasts who want to be able to brag that they forced a struggling company to reopen a disused obsolete line when there was more than ample and faster and far cheaper options.

I have nothing against enthusiasts or even trainspotters as i can see the attractions of it but they must be shown that they are not in charge of anything on the railways!

yachtsman

And this week the Government announced an investment of €600m in a 35 mile motorway between Gort (population 4000 and Tuam (population 6000) - and the mccarthyites called the investment of one tenth of that sum in a railway thoroughfare which the state already owned between Ennis and Athenry a waste of money!

bk

yachtsman wrote: »

And this week the Government announced an investment of €600m in a 35 mile motorway between Gort (population 4000 and Tuam (population 6000) - and the mccarthyites called the investment of one tenth of that sum in a railway thoroughfare which the state already owned between Ennis and Athenry a waste of money!

Given that no one is using it and requires an ongoing 3 million subsidy per year to run it, while it is faster to take the bus, then yes, it was a waste of money.

corktina

the populations of Tuam and Gort are not relevant. It isnt designed for people travelling from there to there (as well you know I suspect!)

steamengine

foggy_lad wrote: »

Who lobbied asnd fought for the WRC to be rebuilt and reopened? the people didn't want it or they would be using it! enthusuasts who want to be able to brag that they forced a struggling company to reopen a disused obsolete line when there was more than ample and faster and far cheaper options.

I have nothing against enthusiasts or even trainspotters as i can see the attractions of it but they must be shown that they are not in charge of anything on the railways!

And I wonder why that might be - getting in the way of your complete shutdown perhaps !!! :rolleyes:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=79750225&postcount=115

foggy_lad wrote: »

In short Irish rail have had their chips and far too long IMHO to sort themselves out, there really is no conceivable way that rail travel will be anything other than an expensive plaything for those who frequent first class and a massive burden on the state until it is dismantled. By all means keep old alignments like Waterford to limerick junction but no more care and maintenance please.

As for tourists there are not enough enthusiasts to keep a whole railway network running just for tourism.

There are buses which are faster more comfortable and far cheaper on all routes so get rid of the railway now instead of pouring more money down into the money spong that Irish rail has always been.

yachtsman

corktina wrote: »

the populations of Tuam and Gort are not relevant. It isnt designed for people travelling from there to there (as well you know I suspect!)

I recall that when the same point was made by those arguing that the WRC was about connecting the second, third and fourth cities of the state by rail they were ridiculed. I heard mccarthy, mcdowell et al scoff at the futility of connecting Ennis, "the middle of newhere" with Athenry, "the middle of nowhere" ad nauseum. The purest of double speak and double standards!

dermo88

A complete shutdown is a somewhat melodramatic suggestion. What is more likely is to restructure Iarnrod Eireann in such a manner as to allow railfreight to grow.

Unfortunately, Irish conditions are probably the least conducive in Europe to the development of Railfreight, and it was identified in 1994 that the loss of one sector such as Cement, Guinness etc, would have a cascade effect across others, and that has come to pass.

The Freight flows from Ballina for example show what is possible. Rail enthusiasts do have knowledge, but some are not - how shall I say, commercially aware. Having said that, there are plenty who I sincerely believe that given the chance on a small salary could be 'hungrier' for business than civil servants and penpushers who get salaried by CIE and are waiting for the redundancy package.

Mc Carthy and Todd Andrews are like chalk and cheese. What Andrews did was necessary in the context of the time, allowing what survived to thrive and do well.

Buses vs Trains should never be an 'either/or' they both have a complimentary role to fulfil. Trains are good at moving large numbers of people and beating traffic jams. Buses are good at handling smaller volumes.

rainbowdash

yachtsman wrote: »

And this week the Government announced an investment of €600m in a 35 mile motorway between Gort (population 4000 and Tuam (population 6000) - and the mccarthyites called the investment of one tenth of that sum in a railway thoroughfare which the state already owned between Ennis and Athenry a waste of money!

More people will travel that road in one rush hour morning than travel the wrc in a full year.

Yes the state already owned the infrastructure and it was passable - they could have tried 30mph trains non stop Ennis athenry to test the market before opening new stations and rebuilding the track, without ll the tops the travel time would be around what it is now.

yachtsman

yachtsman wrote: »

I recall that when the same point was made by those arguing that the WRC was about connecting the second, third and fourth cities of the state by rail they were ridiculed. I heard mccarthy, mcdowell et al scoff at the futility of connecting Ennis, "the middle of newhere" with Athenry, "the middle of nowhere" ad nauseum. The purest of double speak and double standards!

See what I mean: below is a quote from colm mccarthy in his article in todays sunday independent!


"There have been substantial over-runs on several major projects, including the Luas and Port Tunnel schemes in Dublin, as well as failure to achieve usage targets, as with the Ennis-to-Athenry rail link. No post-project assessments, as required by the 2005 circular, have ever been published."

Losty Dublin

Judgement Day wrote: »

No it speaks volumes about CIE's mentality. They were even sending the weekly circulars out by courier at one stage - may still be.

Something to clarify here; they are sent via courier when railcars covered all trains on the line and guards weren't required on the line. The circulars have to be signed upon receipt by most staff as they are safety critical documents and drivers are not in a position to ensure they are signed and delivered. Cue the inevitable tutting and brow tugging to show disdain

Judgement Day

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Something to clarify here; they are sent via courier when railcars covered all trains on the line and guards weren't required on the line. The circulars have to be signed upon receipt by most staff as they are safety critical documents and drivers are not in a position to ensure they are signed and delivered. Cue the inevitable tutting and brow tugging to show disdain

Come off it, are you seriously telling me that the driver of a railcar is incapable of handing over the weekly circulars to a depotman. In the past the circulars were dropped off to the signalman and usually were dispensed from the cabin - the guard had no role in getting anybody to sign for them. Years ago I said it would reach the stage where the only freight carried by CIE would be their wages envelopes but it would seem even that was over optimistic. Is any wonder that the railway are fcuked. :rolleyes:

Losty Dublin

Judgement Day wrote: »

Come off it, are you seriously telling me that the driver of a railcar is incapable of handing over the weekly circulars to a depotman. In the past the circulars were dropped off to the signalman and usually were dispensed from the cabin - the guard had no role in getting anybody to sign for them.

There is nowhere store them in a railcar cab, they are hardly big enough for a driver and his own bag as it is. That aside, do you expect a driver to leave his cab to locate a depot man or other relevant staff to ensure that they are signed for? There isn't any signal man on hand to collect them anymore so merely dropping them off on the platform isn't an option.

foggy_lad

Losty Dublin wrote: »

There is nowhere store them in a railcar cab, they are hardly big enough for a driver and his own bag as it is. That aside, do you expect a driver to leave his cab to locate a depot man or other relevant staff to ensure that they are signed for? There isn't any signal man on hand to collect them anymore so merely dropping them off on the platform isn't an option.

Are you saying that the train these safety critical flyers arrive on is some kind of ghost train that appears unannounced at stations? if a regular service or even an out of service run the station staff should be aware of all train movements and should also be aware of when these scraps of paper are arriving, surely they can make themselves available to sign for them or are they expecting some type of extra payment for this?

dowlingm

in this electronic day and age there are ways to deliver documents and have verification of receipt without requiring physical pieces of paper to be countersigned, and surely IE isn't still issuing wages cheques but instead doing direct deposit? Even if it was required to hand carry them the delivering trains could carry a guard for that service who could then do ticket checking as well, with the circulars being stored in the rear cab (I think the 22s have a locker which allows IE to claim they could restore FastTrack while having no intention to?)

CIE

dowlingm wrote: »

in this electronic day and age there are ways to deliver documents and have verification of receipt without requiring physical pieces of paper to be countersigned, and surely IE isn't still issuing wages cheques but instead doing direct deposit? Even if it was required to hand carry them the delivering trains could carry a guard for that service who could then do ticket checking as well, with the circulars being stored in the rear cab (I think the 22s have a locker which allows IE to claim they could restore FastTrack while having no intention to?)

Hackers.

dowlingm

"hackers" isn't an answer. There are any number of ways to get around that from a private network like MPLS to an always-on VPN connection in stations without access to a network hardline. Once you deal with external issues you then implement Information Rights Management so that when a circular is checked out by an employee this access is recorded (and failure to do so can be followed up)

Judgement Day

Losty Dublin wrote: »

There is nowhere store them in a railcar cab, they are hardly big enough for a driver and his own bag as it is. That aside, do you expect a driver to leave his cab to locate a depot man or other relevant staff to ensure that they are signed for? There isn't any signal man on hand to collect them anymore so merely dropping them off on the platform isn't an option.

Come on Losty you're just digging a yourself a hole now. Any train I travel on is met by whoever's on duty to wave their flag (except Rathdrum which mysteriously doesn't need a flag waver) and the circulars could be handed over then - even if it would disrupt the staff banter for a few seconds.