Fossil venomous snakes?

Adam Khor

I wonder if any of you guys knows about any prehistoric venomous snakes worthy of mention? Info on them seems to be extremely scarce, seemingly because the fossils of them are too. However, I've been able to find bits and mentions about some species, for example, Micrurus gallicus, a coral snake whose remains were found in Germany and France, and several European cobras such as Palaeonaja and Naja austriaca.
I've tried to find evidence of giant venomous snakes (as you know, everything seemed to be bigger back then :pac:) but I've found practically nothing- some of the European cobras were comparable in size to the largest African cobras today, it seems, but not much is said about them.

The two most intriguing species I've found info about are Bitis olduvaiensis, a Gaboon viper and puff-adder relative, which is described only as "large", and Crotalus giganteus which is said to have grown to almost four meters long and to have had a mass comparable to a large boa constrictor today.
But then, some have said that the fossils of C. giganteus actually belong to large individuals of Crotalus adamanteus, the modern day Eastern diamondback.
It still means, though, that Crotalus adamanteus (if they were really the same) got bigger during the Pleistocene, perhaps due to the fact that Florida, where the fossils were found, was an island for a while.

Another rattler described as "largish" was Crotalus potterensis, but now it seems it's considered the same as Crotalus viridis.

So this thread is to discuss any extinct species of venomous snakes you may know, and the big question- do you think there were any venomous snakes substantially larger than modern day bushmasters or king cobras? What do you think the limitations are for venomous snake size?

Just to make it more colorful here you have several big (for today's standars) venomous snakes:

Rubecula

You have got me on this one Adam, totally outside my field. ( I do like snakes but apart from the useless trivia about them I know very little.)

Adam Khor

Rubecula wrote: »

You have got me on this one Adam, totally outside my field. ( I do like snakes but apart from the useless trivia about them I know very little.)

I know a bit about living snakes, been always fascinated by them... but when it comes to prehistoric snakes, almost all I know is about the big constrictors. Venomous snake fossils seem to be quite scarce and fragmentary and for some reason no one seems to discuss them ever...:(

Adam Khor

Found some interesting bits of info.

It seems, for starters, that there was another prehistoric puff adder/Gaboon viper relative whose remains were found in Laetoli (Tanzanian site famous for its hominin footprints). This viper was seemingly very large- much larger than Crotalus adamanteus which is the largest rattlesnake today (possibly rivaled by C. basilicus), and larger too than other fossil snakes known. It may be the same as Bitis olduvaiensis. Apparently, it was found with a prehistoric rabbit on its abdominal cavity.

There's also a viper probably related to the Russell's viper, Vipera maxima (possibly Daboia maxima) which was also substantially larger than the largest vipers today. I don´t know if this is the same as the viper whose remains were found in Mallorca not long ago- it was said to be a top predator of its ecosystem, and suggested as being at least two meters long. (Not really huge, unless you compare it with its closest living relatives).
Vipera/Daboia maxima is also known from Spain.

And finally there's a mysterious snake which was originally described by Owen as "the largest viperid ever to have lived", or something along those lines, which was first thought to be a rattlesnake relative (hence the name Laophis crotaloides) but later re-imagined as a Gaboon viper/puff adder- type creature. It seems however that the fossils are either lost or misplaced and no one speaks about it anymore.

What a frustrating quest >.<

Rubecula

The king cobra (Ophiophagus hannah) is currently the biggest venomous snake around (that we know of) and at about 5 and bit metres rivals anything in the fossil records. Have a look at that and it gives you some idea what these other beasties may have been like.

OK a cobra is not a viper, but it does indicate a few traits that may apply.

Adam Khor

Rubecula wrote: »

The king cobra (Ophiophagus hannah) is currently the biggest venomous snake around (that we know of) and at about 5 and bit metres rivals anything in the fossil records. Have a look at that and it gives you some idea what these other beasties may have been like.

OK a cobra is not a viper, but it does indicate a few traits that may apply.

Oh, I know the king cobra very well (the zoo where I worked used to have a couple). I also know the bushmaster may very well rival the large vipers I mentioned. What I'm trying to find out is if there were any venomous snakes that rivaled or outsized the king cobra itself. To this moment the only one that seems to have come close is Crotalus giganteus, which would probably be shorter but heavier than the king cobra. Fossils of Ophiophagus have been possibly found in Pakistan if IIRC but I have no idea if any truly "giant" cobras have been found. The largest I could find info on is Naja romani/austriaca which was seemingly almost three meters long- on par with the forest cobra (Naja melanoleuca), the largest known true cobra, but still much smaller than the king cobra.