First Fix Burglar Alarms

karlitob

Hi all,

Your opinions please.

We had asked for a first fix burglar alarm to be installed in recent home renovations. Between all the hussle and bussle (I've never spelled those words before) about moving in and getting sorted I've only now turned my attention to the electrics. There is a single wire in the closet to which, I presume, we attach the alarm

Does a first fix burglar alarm mean that I should see wires for the door and window contacts all around the house? I mean, where does this wire actually go to. We don't see any wires at the doors or windows for contacts. The electrician is out tomorrow so I want to just ask a silly question before I ask him.

Thanks all.

DublinDilbert

Yes if he done a first fix for a wired house alarm you would expect to see cables at all the windows and doors. The plasterer may have plastered over some of them. It should be thin cable, typically with 4 cores.

Can you see the place in the house where the alarm unit goes? Should have 20 or so cables coming out of the wall.

I would go for a wired system, if he says he thought u were using a wireless one I would tell him where to go...

paddy147

1st fix is just the physical wiring of the alarm cables.
Idealy,you should use 6 core alarm cable.
There should be around 2-3 feet of alarm cable hanging out of the reveals of each window and door opening in the house and about 3-4 feet of cable hanging at the alarm panel location/end.


Only a qualified and certfifed alarm installer who has a valid licence can actually install/activate/commission an alarm system.





I wired my own house for my alarm system.I then got a professional alarm installer in to install/commission the alarm system.Its a HKC Alarm System.

Some floor board lifting,and drilling up through window reveals with a 650mm x 8mm drill bit.

Drop the 6 core cables down into place and leave around 2-3 feet hanging down at the window.
A good tip here is to leave around 2-3 feet of slack cable above the window reveal up in the floorboard/ceiling void (for the future and any window changes).

Also dont forget to wire for some Motion Sensors around the house (front hall,upstairs landing and back kitchen door area).

And it may be no harm at all to wire for 2 external alarm boxes aswell (1 for the front and 1 for the rear of the house).



Job done.:)

PS-While you are wiring for the alarm,drop in some co ax and also data cables (cat5e or cat6) too in the general areas of where you will have TVs and computers,for future proofing.

You can also wire some outdoor cat5e aswell for any future security camera locations arond the house exterior.;)

paddy147

Stick a 2nd external alarm box on the rear of the house (more visual deterent for any potential thieves).

Also if you can,wire an extra cable into the master bedroom and then you can install a 2nd keypad upstairs.

This means you can activate the alarm system from the comfort of your bedroom each night,as you are getting into bed.

A zoned system means that all of the downstairs is alarmed,but you can still move around upstairs and not set off the motion dectors upstairs,if you want to go to the loo late at night.

ed electrical

Best bet is to ask the guy to come back and show you where the cables are! Sounds like it may be a wireless system as the bell box outside, is usually hard wired. That may explain the single cable. There should also be a power supply near-by. If you have paid for a wired system first fix make sure it's done or get your money back! Just in the off chance that the cables are buried around the house and have to be found establish who will pay to have damaged walls repaired. The sparks or the plasterer!

KoolKid

If you asked him to first fix there should be cabling to all windows & doors. What the single cable is about , I don't know . There is no electrician in his right mind would first fix & presume you were going wireless. My bet is he forgot.
@ Paddy , That panel looks a little messy & cluttered. Did you say you got professionals in to do that? I would expect much tidier on a house like that.

staker

That motion sensor looks a tad untidy too imho. Fair play on taking the time on posting them up though Paddy!

I've seen a good few alarm cables plastered over by plasterers but there would nearly always a couple left seen somewhere in the house. Unless the electriian has specifically buried the cables it's hard to see that it was ever wired at all OP.

KoolKid

No electrician in his right mind would presume a first fix is for wireless. Either he buried them or he forgot. If they were buried there should be a bunch together either beside the fuse board or in a utility room etc.
If there is you can trace the cables with something like this.

paddy147

All you need is a "sonic" to locate/find the cable/cables.

But you NEED to have BOTH ENDS of the cables in order to determine which cable is which cable.

The sonic probe will light up and also bleep loudly when you have located the correct cable.

Use a "sharpie" permanent marker to number each end of each cable,so you know what is what.

Simples.:)

paddy147

Oh and this 10 meter cable fish rod set for 7 euro in Aldi,can be very handy for fishing cables through ceilings/floorboards and into position.:)

paddymick

Jaysus Paddy you seem to have a picture for everything going on in your house!

I just hope for the sake of your mrs that you arnt a regular contributor over on the "sex and sexuality" forum:o:D

paddy147

paddymick wrote: »

Jaysus Paddy you seem to have a picture for everything going on in your house!

I just hope for the sake of your mrs that you arnt a regular contributor over on the "sex and sexuality" forum:o:D

Only trying to help.

Thanks.:D

karlitob

paddy147 wrote: »

Oh and this 10 meter cable fish rod set for 7 euro in Aldi,can be very handy for fishing cables through ceilings/floorboards and into position.:)

Paddy - you're definitely a legend. Thanks to you and everyone for their input. Love the pics Paddy.

He was out yesterday. Said that he has first fixed for Burglar Alarm only and not for first fix throughout the house because there was a suggestion at the time that we were going wireless.

That wire that I thought was for the alarm was telephone cable.

Had a look at the contract and it says "Burglar Alarm First Fix" only. So I guess he's right but to put it in context. We did a big renovation to the house. I learned a whole raft of new terminology in a short space of time and to keep up with everything was very hard especially since I didnt know what I had to keep up on. Just another thing to put down to experience I suppose.

Can I ask everyone about the control panel for a wireless system (upstairs is a great idea too) - I presume that needs hard wiring and can't be wireless.

Its just one thing after another - can be very frustrating when you're not in the know.



Edit:

Just thinkg about this. Does 'Burglar Alarm First Fix Only' literally mean the box outside the house or does it mean the internal wiring? Im reading it again and it still says to be burglar alarm as in the whole thing. Thoughts guys/gals. Thanks

karlitob

paddy147 wrote: »

1st fix is just the physical wiring of the alarm cables.
Idealy,you should use 6 core alarm cable.
There should be around 2-3 feet of alarm cable hanging out of the reveals of each window and door opening in the house and about 3-4 feet of cable hanging at the alarm panel location/end.


Only a qualified and certfifed alarm installer who has a valid licence can actually install/activate/commission an alarm system.





I wired my own house for my alarm system.I then got a professional alarm installer in to install/commission the alarm system.Its a HKC Alarm System.

Some floor board lifting,and drilling up through window reveals with a 650mm x 8mm drill bit.

Drop the 6 core cables down into place and leave around 2-3 feet hanging down at the window.
A good tip here is to leave around 2-3 feet of slack cable above the window reveal up in the floorboard/ceiling void (for the future and any window changes).

Also dont forget to wire for some Motion Sensors around the house (front hall,upstairs landing and back kitchen door area).

And it may be no harm at all to wire for 2 external alarm boxes aswell (1 for the front and 1 for the rear of the house).



Job done.:)

PS-While you are wiring for the alarm,drop in some co ax and also data cables (cat5e or cat6) too in the general areas of where you will have TVs and computers,for future proofing.

You can also wire some outdoor cat5e aswell for any future security camera locations arond the house exterior.;)

Hey Paddy - will you tell me more about the Cat5 for external security cameras. I was actually thinking of sensor lights for the side access and back of house. Does it need much drilling etc. We've only just finished plastering.

paddy147

karlitob wrote: »

Hey Paddy - will you tell me more about the Cat5 for external security cameras. I was actually thinking of sensor lights for the side access and back of house. Does it need much drilling etc. We've only just finished plastering.

I used Belden outdoor (black) Cat5E cabkle for 2 external security camera locations.

The outdoor cat5e can be expensive,but its weatherproof,as it has thicker,waterproof outer sheeting on it.:)

You can also wire for a PIR/Motion Dector and link 2 external lights to it.Use 1.5 NYMJ for this.
A Robus PIR will cost you around 15-20 euro in a leccy wholesalers.
I have this syetem on my porch door and also down the side of the house,and the rear of the house too.

With regards the cat5E and drilling....a 600mm or 1000mm long x 8mm dmasonary bit will do the job nicely.

With regards the lighting and the NYMJ,a 600mm or 1000mm long 12-15mm drill bit will do the job nicely.


I ran my NYMJ through conduit in the house,and then drilled down to where the sensor and light locations would be.

.G.

karlitob wrote: »

Paddy - you're definitely a legend. Thanks to you and everyone for their input. Love the pics Paddy.

He was out yesterday. Said that he has first fixed for Burglar Alarm only and not for first fix throughout the house because there was a suggestion at the time that we were going wireless.

That wire that I thought was for the alarm was telephone cable.

Had a look at the contract and it says "Burglar Alarm First Fix" only. So I guess he's right but to put it in context. We did a big renovation to the house. I learned a whole raft of new terminology in a short space of time and to keep up with everything was very hard especially since I didnt know what I had to keep up on. Just another thing to put down to experience I suppose.

Can I ask everyone about the control panel for a wireless system (upstairs is a great idea too) - I presume that needs hard wiring and can't be wireless.

Its just one thing after another - can be very frustrating when you're not in the know.



Edit:

Just thinkg about this. Does 'Burglar Alarm First Fix Only' literally mean the box outside the house or does it mean the internal wiring? Im reading it again and it still says to be burglar alarm as in the whole thing. Thoughts guys/gals. Thanks

When I'm asked to "first fix for a Burglar alarm" that means I put alarm cables at all the doors and windows,1 keypad,1 for bellbox,1 for internal sounder,some for PIR's if requested and run them back to a central point.It also means wiring from fuseboard to alarm panel location to provide power via a fused spur.

I suspect this is the same for most sparks.

He may have forgot or he's never been asked to do it before in which case he may genuinely not have known what it meant but should have asked.Or as he says he genuinely thought you were going wireless but why would you when your getting a rewire done.

I don't think there's any ambiguity in "burglar alarm first fix only". You should have cabling around the house. A good wireless system will be much more expensive compared to its wired equvilent

paddy147

There are also special match box size decoders/scramblers that thieves are using to diss-arm/fool the wireless alarm signal and gain access to your property.

Crimecall on RTE showed them last month and they are so small.The Gardai put out an alert on these devices last month too,on CrimeCall.





Hard wired anti-tamper system all the way so.:)

KoolKid

paddy147 wrote: »

There are also special match box size decoders/scramblers that thieves are using to diss-arm/fool the wireless alarm signal and gain access to your property.

Crimecall on RTE showed them last month and they are so small.The Gardai put out an alert on these devices last month too,on CrimeCall.





Hard wired anti-tamper system all the way so.:)

Paddy , can you clarify what you are referring to here or perhaps a link.
There are no devices available, to my knowledge, that can scramble or disarm wireless alarms.
I think you might possibly be thinking of GSM jammers. These jam monitored systems that use GSM digis. Both wired and wireless alarms would be vulnerable to these. But they can not disarm or disable the alarm itself.

paddymick

karlitob wrote: »

Paddy - you're definitely a legend. Thanks to you and everyone for their input. Love the pics Paddy.

He was out yesterday. Said that he has first fixed for Burglar Alarm only and not for first fix throughout the house because there was a suggestion at the time that we were going wireless.

That wire that I thought was for the alarm was telephone cable.

Had a look at the contract and it says "Burglar Alarm First Fix" only. So I guess he's right but to put it in context. We did a big renovation to the house. I learned a whole raft of new terminology in a short space of time and to keep up with everything was very hard especially since I didnt know what I had to keep up on. Just another thing to put down to experience I suppose.

Can I ask everyone about the control panel for a wireless system (upstairs is a great idea too) - I presume that needs hard wiring and can't be wireless.

Its just one thing after another - can be very frustrating when you're not in the know.



Edit:

Just thinkg about this. Does 'Burglar Alarm First Fix Only' literally mean the box outside the house or does it mean the internal wiring? Im reading it again and it still says to be burglar alarm as in the whole thing. Thoughts guys/gals. Thanks

If I was handed drawings and a spec sheet that said "Burglar alarm first fix" I would take it for granted that it was a hardwired alarm unless it specifically said "Wireless" or I was told directly by the client or architect that it was wireless.

You need to be sure what was asked for and more importantly what you paid for.

paddy147

KoolKid wrote: »

Paddy , can you clarify what you are referring to here or perhaps a link.
There are no devices available, to my knowledge, that can scramble or disarm wireless alarms.
I think you might possibly be thinking of GSM jammers. These jam monitored systems that use GSM digis. Both wired and wireless alarms would be vulnerable to these. But they can not disarm or disable the alarm itself.

Ah that must be what it was then:).
Some sort of litle gadget in a matchbox or smokes box that thieves are using to fool/jam the signal.The gardai were/are very concerned with the ammount of these gadgets being used by the thieves.:eek:

KoolKid

To clarify ,GSM jammers only block monitored signals sent via a GSM network.
Most company's have stopped using GSM, unfortunately certain company's are still happy to sell these to their customers without explaining the risks.
These devices in no way confuse or disable the alarm.
Wired alarms are as vulnerable to this as any other system.

Stoner

Just popped this in here so that we can get the Security feedback on jamming wireless systems.

KoolKid

paddymick wrote: »

If I was handed drawings and a spec sheet that said "Burglar alarm first fix" I would take it for granted that it was a hardwired alarm unless it specifically said "Wireless" or I was told directly by the client or architect that it was wireless.

You need to be sure what was asked for and more importantly what you paid for.

I agree, any electrician would ask what you mean by first fixing if its a wireless alarm. My money is on he forgot.

Thunderbird2

KoolKid wrote: »

If you asked him to first fix there should be cabling to all windows & doors. What the single cable is about , I don't know . There is no electrician in his right mind would first fix & presume you were going wireless. My bet is he forgot.
@ Paddy , That panel looks a little messy & cluttered. Did you say you got professionals in to do that? I would expect much tidier on a house like that.

Is there a pic of the inside wiring ?

paddymick

KoolKid wrote: »

I agree, any electrician would ask what you mean by first fixing if its a wireless alarm. My money is on he forgot.

Or he is pulling a fast one;)

DjAloldskool

Hi , I was looking for some information on Maintaining my own house alarm.
I was an Alarm installer for over 10 years, I worked as an employee for a company ,
I was was made redundant 3 years back, and don't have a license,
I wanted to do some work on my home alarm system, I installed a while back ,
Do I need a license to carry out work in my own home?

KoolKid

No.
But double check your not claiming for a discount on an alarm installed to EN50131. Otherwise your fine to work away on your own system & maintain it.

DjAloldskool

KoolKid wrote: »

No.
But double check your not claiming for a discount on an alarm installed to EN50131. Otherwise your fine to work away on your own system & maintain it.

What do you mean by claiming for a discount on an alarm installed to EN50131?
Is this for Home insurance discount,

Cheers.

KoolKid

EN50131 is the newest standard. If your insurance policy has that standard down for your alarm it must be serviced by a licensed installer to maintain that standard.

DjAloldskool

KoolKid wrote: »

EN50131 is the newest standard. If your insurance policy has that standard down for your alarm it must be serviced by a licensed installer to maintain that standard.

I live in a Dublin corporation house , and don't have house insurance,
So I should be ok to work on it then?

KoolKid

Deffo OK then....;)