Keep Calm And Discuss Retro Generally!

James Howlett

EnterNow wrote: »

When the time comes to switch off online marketplace support for the 360 & PS3, pay very close attention. Pay even closer attention to those users who have huge libraries of digital content later on when their console breaks, as the reality of the situation dawns on them & their library & purchases are lost forever.

Some games with multiplayer will be facing that problem pretty soon.
Take Assassin's Creed Brotherhood, the first in the series to feature multiplayer. This mode can only be played online as a system link option is not available.

There are now 3 Assassin's Creed games that feature multiplayer with a fourth on the way... when Ubisoft decide to close the servers for BroHo, the multiplayer part of the game, along with the DLC packs purcahsed for it, will become unusable.

Stoner

Retr0gamer wrote: »

We've all heard the sob stories from publishers over the years but these publishers really aren't strapped for cash and the ones that go out of business are due to reasons other than second hand sales. The fact of the matter is that there's laws in place that deny a copyright holder the ability to make money from second hand sales and these are in place for a very good reason. MS are just exploiting a loophole due to the way copyright works in with software requiring licenses.

I dont like the idea as it stands now either, but I'm not talking about sob stories I have friends who develop games for a living that are working huge hours now compared to 10 years I'm not just talking recession factors this is over and above the base additional hardship everyone feels.
The working hours for people in the front end of games is increasing all the time. I understand that some publishers are cleaning up but should the games shops make all the money for resales, I'll offer an example at the other end of the scale,

you buy a game for 50 euro, the publishers make 15 euro if they are lucky the developers make 2 or 3 euro and the rest is tax/shop overheads and profit.

kid plays the game for a week beings it back and is offered say 15 euro for it. The shop bangs 46 euro on the game and pops it back on the counter.

Someone comes in to buy the game, they bring a new copy to the counter and the staff say, "that's available second hand for 4 euro less" the guys buys the second hand copy and is told to bring it back for an exchange when he is finished with it.

Its the developers and smaller design shops I'm concerned rather than the big publishing houses. the poor sods making the games are working huge hours and the shops and publishers take it all.

I'm not sticking up for publishers I'm just saying the some shop chains have taken a stance to actively adopt a policy to push sales of second hand games a head of new games to maximize their revenue, it provides very little additional value for the end customer, that is their right I guess, but failure to look ahead down the road and reach any sort of compromise has left bad blood between the retailers and publishers. I think there is some Karma here, I I've seen plenty of kids being ripped off on trade ins, policies like trade in three game and get this game for 5 euro etc all to get the second hand stock levels up.

the publishers and the retailers both exploit the end users IMHO.

35 euro to register a second hand game on your console is a joke .
I cant see myself getting this console as it stands, but I most likely will like most of us here. Sony will do the same, allegedly I've heard that it the route they are going down now too.

Also having said all that since halflife 2 I've been buying most of my PC games on platforms like Steam. Maybe some free games like APB will be become available on these platforms. I have a feeling that this cold all level out and it wont be as bad as it appears now.

Retr0gamer

Stoner wrote: »

I dont like the idea as it stands now either, but I'm not talking about sob stories I have friends who develop games for a living that are working huge hours now compared to 10 years I'm not just talking recession factors this is over and above the base additional hardship everyone feels.
The working hours for people in the front end of games is increasing all the time. I understand that some publishers are cleaning up but should the games shops make all the money for resales, I'll offer an example at the other end of the scale.

Game developers working long hours is not something new. It's been like that since videogame development started and while it's a ****ty practice it's been like that forever and anyone getting into the industry should understand what they are getting themselves in for. Also the blame for it should not be placed on people buying second hand games. It should be placed on management and publishers putting that pressure on developers as well as poor project management.

MrVestek

You could have fan efforts that spring up like the reverse engineered PSO server that I play on sometimes with my Dreamcast but yeah, it's a sorry situation.

I'd love to be able to play something like Planet Ring again all these years later, that was a fun little game.

Myrddin

It's more the permanent loss of bought content I'd be concerned about. Multiplayer servers come & go...but the day your library of bought content is lost & you've no way to redownload it on a replacement console...thats a sad say

CosmicSmash

EnterNow wrote: »

When the time comes to switch off online marketplace support for the 360 & PS3, pay very close attention. Pay even closer attention to those users who have huge libraries of digital content later on when their console breaks, as the reality of the situation dawns on them & their library & purchases are lost forever.

I wonder the same myself at times, then again given the limited lifespan of current gen consoles will this be an issue. I've been three 360s so far and I find it hard to believe that todays games will be as collectible as the older stuff given there may not be any machines to play them on it years to come.

MrVestek

EnterNow wrote: »

It's more the permanent loss of bought content I'd be concerned about. Multiplayer servers come & go...but the day your library of bought content is lost & you've no way to redownload it on a replacement console...thats a sad say

There'll always be a solution, you can grab Xbox Live Arcade games from unscrupulous places and install them on JTagged Xbox 360's right?

No console is invulnerable, the crackers will come up with something.

Stoner

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Game developers working long hours is not something new. It's been like that since videogame development started and while it's a ****ty practice it's been like that forever and anyone getting into the industry should understand what they are getting themselves in for. Also the blame for it should not be placed on people buying second hand games. It should be placed on management and publishers putting that pressure on developers as well as poor project management.

I didn't say it was new, it has not been like this since the dawn of games development, it has gotten worse for many people.
I can't put my hand on the articles that I've read on this about the added stress the increased percentage of crunch time added for developers, I'm hoping as usual that this is an informal chat. The licensing of these games has changed too from what I hear and developers don't really get the deals or dont have a dog in the fight if the sales are good, they seem to be hired in subcontractors now. The days of knocking out a game in time for the next movie release are gone, there are KPIs in place that a certain meta score must be achieved and the publishers seem to do well from it.

My point is not sob story for publishers or to blame the second hand market, more for the guys making the games and for people buying second hand games yes they are buying them I'm not saying its their fault or laying any blame at their feet, its not a buy it new and save the developers pitch, its more of a I don't feel sorry for the retailers as they have exploited customers too IMHO and have no right to get all high and mighty about the big bad publisher at the end of the day all they the shops do is sell and provide a market for the games.

I dont seriously think that if a new game will be 35 Euro to register with MS that it will still be 35 Euro in 2 years, the market will have to drive that, they will have to drop the prices, I think that you will still get games at reduced costs but you will pay someone else for it. I understand fully that it is a bigger argument than this and that its your game you should be able to sell it etc.

I'm all for the customer getting the best deal, and I don't think that the retailers were offering that either. If I want to sell a game I do it on adverts, if I'm not bothered I wont trade it in, I'll give it away first.

o1s1n

EnterNow wrote: »

It's more the permanent loss of bought content I'd be concerned about. Multiplayer servers come & go...but the day your library of bought content is lost & you've no way to redownload it on a replacement console...thats a sad say

For someone marketing consoles though, it's a great thing as it means they have you by the balls to buy the next machine.

'Oh so you bought loads of online content through your 360? Well, we're discontinuing 360 support now, but if you buy an Xbox One you can continue to use this content'

Mr.Saturn

I dunno why they didn't just go flat-out digital. Yeah, it's a significantly smaller base for a new console, with the online-only jazz, and you're losing access to this stuff anyways, so why not just remove the 2nd hand market as a thing altogether?

You'd have the savings of no physical releases to offset whatever you'd hope to scalp off the used-market. I mean, it beats trying to have it both ways and alienating absolutely everyone.

As it stands, it's a confusing mess of a thing, that's so convoluted that it's hard to envision it taking off as the premier living-room experience.

Andrew76

o1s1n wrote: »

For someone marketing consoles though, it's a great thing as it means they have you by the balls to buy the next machine.

'Oh so you bought loads of online content through your 360? Well, we're discontinuing 360 support now, but if you buy an Xbox One you can continue to use this content'

Except none of the game content carries forward, only films or whatever other media you can buy on it these days.

Is it backwards compatible in any way?
NO. Not with any Xbox 360 games, digital or physical. "The system is based on a different core architecture, so back-compat doesn't really work from that perspective," according to Xbox Live vice president Marc Whitten.

From here.

Myrddin

Achilles wrote: »

There'll always be a solution, you can grab Xbox Live Arcade games from unscrupulous places and install them on JTagged Xbox 360's right?

No console is invulnerable, the crackers will come up with something.

Yes you can install pirated content onto jtagged/rgh consoles, but it has to be found, downloaded, weeded of virii, ftp'd/usb transferred to a hacked console. It's not a solution a lot of people trust, & not the solution that should be forced on people. As I said, it will be interesting when the next big market shut-off happens.

No console is invulnerable, but looking at security, it's getting tougher & tougher every generation. Now with dial home checks etc, it's gonna take much more than a flashed dvd drive to hurt this console.

o1s1n wrote: »

For someone marketing consoles though, it's a great thing as it means they have you by the balls to buy the next machine.

'Oh so you bought loads of online content through your 360? Well, we're discontinuing 360 support now, but if you buy an Xbox One you can continue to use this content'

Yeah but it doesn't carry over. To my old collector/dinosaur ways, physical media is still king as it hangs around much longer than most marketplaces do.

o1s1n

Andrew76 wrote: »

Except none of the game content carries forward, only films or whatever other media you can buy on it these days.
.

So if you have an XBox Live account and want to start using it with your Xbox One, none of your previously bought content will be available to you?

That's crazy.

Andrew76

o1s1n wrote: »

So if you have an XBox Live account and want to start using it with your Xbox One, none of your previously bought content will be available to you?

That's crazy.

None of the game content will carry over because 360 games (of any kind) supposedly don't work on the One. Assuming that link is correct ofc.

Myrddin

Yep no BC meaning any 360 game content will have to be re-purchased foor the One when it becomes available. So console marketplaces are like Steam, except if you get a new pc you've to buy your library again

o1s1n

Oh sorry, I wasn't referring to 360 games.

What I meant was if I downloaded something like Radiant Silvergun or Super Meatboy through Live - would it still be available through the Xbox One?

So they're games I would have paid for already - would the licenses still be tied to my Live account and I could download them again without paying? (like redownloading software via Steam)

Or is it a case of everything being lost as the games are tied to the original system?

krudler

The more I hear about the new consoles the more tempted I am to just build a new pc tbh. Can't ever see myself buying an Xbox One just because how dickish MS are being about it, if Sony manage to not alienate people like MS have so far they've won this thing before it's even started

Andrew76

o1s1n wrote: »

Oh sorry, I wasn't referring to 360 games.

What I meant was if I downloaded something like Radiant Silvergun or Super Meatboy through Live - would it still be available through the Xbox One?

So they're games I would have paid for already - would the licenses still be tied to my Live account and I could download them again without paying? (like redownloading software via Steam)

Or is it a case of everything being lost as the games are tied to the original system?

No they won't be available on the One because they won't work on the One. So they would need to make One version's of those games and you pay for them again.

/Edit: Almost like a NES game not working on a Snes, coded for two different systems is what they're getting at.

Myrddin

o1s1n wrote: »

Oh sorry, I wasn't referring to 360 games.

What I meant was if I downloaded something like Radiant Silvergun or Super Meatboy through Live - would it still be available through the Xbox One?

So they're games I would have paid for already - would the licenses still be tied to my Live account and I could download them again without paying? (like redownloading software via Steam)

Or is it a case of everything being lost as the games are tied to the original system?

Yeah as Andrew mentions, XBL/XBLA/Physical discs, it's all the same. Once they've been remade for the One, you'll have to purchase them again.

Myrddin

Andrew76 wrote: »

/Edit: Almost like a NES game not working on a Snes, coded for two different systems is what they're getting at.

Except you never got like for like games between successor consoles. Mario became Super Mario World, Mother became Earthbound etc. In this situation, Minecraft remains Minecraft except you need to buy it again for the privilege of playing it on the One

o1s1n

Wow. So then once the 360 isn't support anymore and your HDD goes that's all your downloaded games gone for good.

All I can say is thank feck piracy exists so people are at least archiving and software won't be lost forever.

Andrew76

EnterNow wrote: »

Except you never got like for like games between successor consoles. Mario became Super Mario World, Mother became Earthbound etc. In this situation, Minecraft remains Minecraft except you need to buy it again for the privilege of playing it on the One

Aye, maybe a bad example but I was just trying to highlight why you can't play 360 games on the One. It's a technical limitation of the new system, it can't emulate the 360. Like the SNES doesn't have internal hardware or software to emulate the NES.

o1s1n

Its rather interesting as you would think it would be possible in these modern times to have some kind of virtualized 360 platform on the One to at least allow you to play download only games from your Live account.

Myrddin

o1s1n wrote: »

Wow. So then once the 360 isn't support anymore and your HDD goes that's all your downloaded games gone for good.

Try explaining this to a ten year old who sees instant Marketplaces as a good way to buy console content. It's fine for exclusively digital stuff like The Cave, Far Cry Blood Dragon etc, but anything else I buy physically.

Yeah you can pirate them again in such a scenario (marketplace support has ceased, buying console borked), provided you can find the content, provided your console is modified, & provided you know what you're doing. But it's hardly an ideal solution.

When I see people buying stuff up like hot cakes in the PS forum through sales etc, I have to say I'm never tempted to buy or collect for a console digitally. There's just no security that it'll always be available to you & a lot of people either don't care about this (because they don't wish to collect anyway) or aren't aware of it

TechnoFreek

So did I read it correctly that if you trade in an Xbox one game it will be deleted from your Xbox live account. That mean a deduction in gamerscore?

Myrddin

o1s1n wrote: »

Its rather interesting as you would think it would be possible in these modern times to have some kind of virtualized 360 platform on the One to at least allow you to play download only games from your Live account.

Just as easily, given your profile carries over, they could give users who already bought the content a big discount when it comes to rebuying it. Just enough to cover the costs of adapting the game for the new hardware

Andrew76

TechnoFreek wrote: »

So did I read it correctly that if you trade in an Xbox one game it will be deleted from your Xbox live account. That mean a deduction in gamerscore?

Surely they'll just block you from playing it rather than deleting all history from your profile? Reducing your gamerscore would surely p1ss off tons of folk who love that stuff.

TechnoFreek

Andrew76 wrote: »

Surely they'll just block you from playing it rather than deleting all history from your profile? Reducing your gamerscore would surely p1ss off tons of folk who love that stuff.

You would imagine so but it seems like MS are just deciding all this stuff on the fly.

CiDeRmAn

What could happen, similarly to the Gakai tech bought by Sony, it's that while the host hardware may not be capable of running 360 software maybe they will simply use off site processing to run the games, with local hardware providing little of importance beyond controls and av.

Atavan-Halen

I'd say the only thing that's might carry over to the new Xbox is your gamertag, but I'd even be doubtful of that as they might be working on a whole new online infrastructure. MS have never been one for backwards compatibility. I wouldn't worry about them shutting down the current 360 marketplace for a while as didnt they only drop online support for the original Xbox a couple of years ago?

johnny_ultimate

Was at a screening of Totoro there in the Lighthhouse. During one of the film's quieter moments, cinema etiquette was cruelly broken as someone's phone went off. It was actually pretty funny though because the ringtone was the Final Fantasy victory fanfare :pac:

o1s1n

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Was at a screening of Totoro there in the Lighthhouse. During one of the film's quieter moments, cinema etiquette was cruelly broken as someone's phone went off. It was actually pretty funny though because the ringtone was the Final Fantasy victory fanfare :pac:

I forgot that was on!

Edit - the film, not my phone :pac:

johnny_ultimate

o1s1n wrote: »

I forgot that was on!

Edit - the film, not my phone :pac:

On all week at the IFI and Lighthouse (beware: nasty dubs tomorrow!). Today's the only chance I have to catch the Totoro / Fireflies double bill though.

There was a whole group of kids dressed up as the Totoro characters. They all got up and started dancing as the credits rolled. One of the most absurd / adorable things I've ever seen in a cinema!

CiDeRmAn

I'm going to bring my son to see it I think, he's only seen it on the small screen.
Having read a synopsis of Fireflies I can't go as I'd wind up blubbering!

James Howlett

atavan-halen wrote: »

I'd say the only thing that's might carry over to the new Xbox is your gamertag, but I'd even be doubtful of that as they might be working on a whole new online infrastructure. MS have never been one for backwards compatibility. I wouldn't worry about them shutting down the current 360 marketplace for a while as didnt they only drop online support for the original Xbox a couple of years ago?

I'd say gamertags are pretty safe, they're already cross compatable with windows 8 and windows phone games.

Atavan-Halen

James Howlett wrote: »

I'd say gamertags are pretty safe, they're already cross compatable with windows 8 and windows phone games.

I suppose so. I was thinking about this earlier and, whilst I'm not defending MS or anything, I think people are over-reacting a bit when it comes to digital downloads and them not being available in the future. Surely when you buy a game on the XBL marketplace or anywhere else you have to realise that it's not going to be available to you forever. The way I see it is that you're not actually paying for anything but a few hours of entertainment. When you get a game on disc you're paying for something physical but it's not the same as a downloaded game. Look at it this way, it's the same as buying concert tickets. Ok you get a physical ticket but at the end of the day you're paying for a few hours of fun to go see a band. You can't expect to go to the concert again anytime you want, and that's the way I see digital downloads.

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

On all week at the IFI and Lighthouse (beware: nasty dubs tomorrow!). Today's the only chance I have to catch the Totoro / Fireflies double bill though.

Is it on all next week or just until the end of this week?

o1s1n

Just tried to watch that new show RAM-D on TV3 (Still on as we speak)

I hope nobody here is involved with it as it's one of the worst things I've seen in my life.

Starts with a neverending vox pop on Grafton street asking people about (groan) violent videogames.

Queue oul ones giving out about it, young people saying it's not connected, I've never wanted to slap so many idiots in my life.

Then it gets worse - this stupid 5 minute section with a 'girl gamer' who looks something like Garth from Waynes world wearing a purple wig throwing out as many 'geeky' phrases as she can to a New Super Mario Bros Wii background. If I were a female gamer I'd be offended.

Had to turn it off. Makes Gamezville's presenters look like Shakespearean actors.

richymcdermott

Sony are blocking used games aswell but maing it u to the publishers to use so if pleased

http://www.screwattack.com/news/sony-hints-ps4-does-contain-feature-block-used-games-its-publishers-use-it

Atavan-Halen

o1s1n wrote: »

Just tried to watch that new show RAM-D on TV3 (Still on as we speak)

I hope nobody here is involved with it as it's one of the worst things I've seen in my life.

Starts with a neverending vox pop on Grafton street asking people about (groan) violent videogames.

Queue oul ones giving out about it, young people saying it's not connected, I've never wanted to slap so many idiots in my life.

Then it gets worse - this stupid 5 minute section with a 'girl gamer' who looks something like Garth from Waynes world wearing a purple wig throwing out as many 'geeky' phrases as she can to a New Super Mario Bros Wii background. If I were a female gamer I'd be offended.

Had to turn it off. Makes Gamezville's presenters look like Shakespearean actors.

Watching it now. Their no.1 gorey game is Mortal Kombat.

o1s1n

I just couldn't do it. Almost cringed myself to death. :pac:

Atavan-Halen

o1s1n wrote: »

I just couldn't do it. Almost cringed myself to death. :pac:

I'm a bit scarleh' for them actually.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_b7TTV1QPY

Mr.Saturn

atavan-halen wrote: »

Watching it now. Their no.1 gorey game is Mortal Kombat.

I know what you meant, but now I'm picturing two biddies standing at a bus-stop in Gorey centre going 'I like a bit of the auld Shao Kahn meself'.

In short, thank you.

TechnoFreek

RAM-D? More like ass ram-d

Touch Fuzzy Get Dizzy

o1s1n wrote: »

this stupid 5 minute section with a 'girl gamer' who looks something like Garth from Waynes world wearing a purple wig throwing out as many 'geeky' phrases as she can to a New Super Mario Bros Wii background. If I were a female gamer I'd be offended.

Nerdkiller1991

atavan-halen wrote: »

I'm a bit scarleh' for them actually.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_b7TTV1QPY

Oh god. What was I doing when I was 12?

Jack burton

I would like to see what the games guru is up to at the moment though

Nerdkiller1991

Jack burton wrote: »

I would like to see what the games guru is up to at the moment though

Since he had no monetary value When Larry Bundy Jr. sued him, they took his shoes for the second series.

Sparks43

I wish fishing could be retro after another sorry blank tonight.

Going to cost about a tenner to buy fresh Mackerel in the morning before we go after
Ray



Smoothound



Bass(Which must be released as its closed season)




And hopefully Tope Blue Shark Plaice and other bits and bobs



This fails and i give up

johnny_ultimate

atavan-halen wrote: »

Is it on all next week or just until the end of this week?

Yeah, should be on through Thursday! Really awkward times though.

Atavan-Halen

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Yeah, should be on through Thursday! Really awkward times though.

I'm off early on tuesday next week so might pop in and see it!