The Look of the City Centre

ninty9er

Being out of work for the next few weeks and having a break in the weather yesterday I decided to wander up a few streets to look at the buildings.

I counted empty units on three streets; Cruises Street, William Street and O'Connell Street.

You might actually be surprised to read that William Street has only 2 empty units, Cruises Street is more unfortunate with 10 empty units, but the big surprise was O'Connell Street with upwards of 20 empty units, including 2 of the worst looking examples right next to each other (40 & 41 O'Connell Street - Formerly First Active and Church & General), the County Library looks awful too and there are some non-retail empty units further up towards The Crescent.

There are some occupied units with dirty windows. Surprisingly, one of the worst is an auctioneer. Perhaps the Council could consider including weekly window cleaning as part of commercial rates, considering how high they are.

However there is some more positive news. Some empty units are displaying artwork from city schools and the vast majority of occupied units are well kept.

Like I said I'm at a loose end, so I've taken a trip in to the Limerick Local Heroes Hub (upstairs in Arthur's Quay Shopping Centre) and had a brief chat with some of the guys in there, and might do something on this stuff. Anyone with any ideas for the city should definitely drop in.

Kess73

ninty9er wrote: »

Being out of work for the next few weeks and having a break in the weather yesterday I decided to wander up a few streets to look at the buildings.

I counted empty units on three streets; Cruises Street, William Street and O'Connell Street.

You might actually be surprised to read that William Street has only 2 empty units, Cruises Street is more unfortunate with 10 empty units, but the big surprise was O'Connell Street with upwards of 20 empty units, including 2 of the worst looking examples right next to each other (40 & 41 O'Connell Street - Formerly First Active and Church & General), the County Library looks awful too and there are some non-retail empty units further up towards The Crescent.

There are some occupied units with dirty windows. Surprisingly, one of the worst is an auctioneer. Perhaps the Council could consider including weekly window cleaning as part of commercial rates, considering how high they are.

However there is some more positive news. Some empty units are displaying artwork from city schools and the vast majority of occupied units are well kept.

Like I said I'm at a loose end, so I've taken a trip in to the Limerick Local Heroes Hub (upstairs in Arthur's Quay Shopping Centre) and had a brief chat with some of the guys in there, and might do something on this stuff. Anyone with any ideas for the city should definitely drop in.

I really do believe that far more of this should be going on, and that landlords should be "encouraged" to allow artwork etc to be displayed in empty units. Not saying that people should have access to the units at all times, but just for long enough to set up displays and leave them there for maybe a month or two at a time. Would be far better than looking at dirty empty units.

Not surprised at William street having less units although I was sure it had four empty units as of last Monday rather than two.

The likes of Sarsfield street, Liddy street, and Henry street make for some depressing empty unit figures as well, not to mention a deceptive number of empty office space which can be a little more difficult to notice..

The number of empty units on O'Connell street is pretty high alright. The one you highlighted might stay empty for some time yet because if one wished to buy it, one of the units in the building has a tenant who signed a 35 year lease back in the 1980's and although you would have income from that unit straight away if you bought the building, you are also stuck with being unable to develop the building as a whole for the next 7 to 8 years. Had a little sniff at those buildings some time back and was not overly sold on them tbh.


I would have said that the old Sony centre/Kielys unit looks worse as it is closer to the city centre, and the two empty units across from Brown Thomas look even worse to my eyes although one has gotten some use with the statue display. Had/have the seed for a grand idea for that location but various things have gotten in the way to date not least trying to establish two current ideas in Cork and Galway at present after getting nowhere with trying to set up one of them in Limerick.


Have said this before on here, but one thing that makes Limerick city centre quite unattractive to many retailers (medium sized and larger retailers) is the lack of modern units of decent size. It is actually scary the amount of good sized units that were in Limerick city centre in the 1980's and even in the early 1990's compared to now. Many of them were turned into smaller units over time and where once were big single units now stands clutches of small units that are no good to a medium sized to large retailer.

An example of this would be when Woolworths were in Limerick. Their unit on O' Connell street was a bloody big one. When they pulled out of Limerick the site was purchased and rebuilt in the guise of the O'Connell Mall which if memory serves had seven smaller units. Nowadays it is the stretch that houses a number of eateries.

Cruises street was built amid much fanfare but when finished it was done with a high number of small units that were never going to bring in enough large retailers and even the larger names that did go there moved pretty quickly when larger units became available out of town.

Arthurs quay is another example of small units in a big building.

Small units are fine but when a city centre does not have a decent number of units from say 3,500 square feet to the 10,000+ square foot mark to allow large multinationals to set up as well as the bigger independent retailers then it gets left with lots and lots of smaller traders that simply will not attract in enough footfall on a regular basis to keep the retail side of a city centre alive. I think everyone likes to see the smaller traders, but the big boys are a very necessary evil if one wants to keep a city centre alive during shopping hours.

Now the retail side of things is only one thing that needs a major revamp in Limerick, but it is a big thing.

ninty9er

There are a few medium sized units, the one next to The Brazen Head, the one next to the old County Library and the Dunnes Unit, but that is about the extent of it.

The CHQ Building on Dublin's Docklands is an example of something that could be done with the Dunnes Building on Sarsfield Street/Liddy Street.

zulutango

Further to what's written above, I think there's other issues worth considering ...

1. Signage clutter/pollution
There are simply way too many street signs cluttering the view of the streets, and they are completely damaging the aesthetic of the city centre. Part of this is down to over-zealous application of the law and part of it is laziness and stupidity on the part of the city council. It's easy to tell that there is no city architect in Limerick.

2. Chewing Gum
It appears that after about 20 years of battling the unions, the city council now has started cleaning the streets of chewing gum. A lot of work to do here though.

3. Georgian Quarter
We're trying to sell Limerick as one of the most intact Georgian cities in the world. Yet, take the Crescent for example, most of the buildings are covered in inappropriate signage and hoardings. There's also lots of u-pvc windows rather than the traditional timber sash windows. It's downright tacky. I understand that businesses need to advertise, but there should be strong regulation of the Georgian area, as there would be in any other city that has such as asset.

4. O'Connell Street
Having a national route going straight through the centre of the city is a disaster for its image. I'm not sure if the proposed orbital route is the answer, but the traffic needs to be diverted away from O'Connell Street as soon as possible.

ninty9er

zulutango wrote: »

Further to what's written above, I think there's other issues worth considering ...

1. Signage clutter/pollution
There are simply way too many street signs cluttering the view of the streets, and they are completely damaging the aesthetic of the city centre. Part of this is down to over-zealous application of the law and part of it is laziness and stupidity on the part of the city council. It's easy to tell that there is no city architect in Limerick.

This is true, even before addressing your third point, a standard signage board size and height would make a huge difference on all streets

zulutango wrote: »

3. Georgian Quarter
We're trying to sell Limerick as one of the most intact Georgian cities in the world. Yet, take the Crescent for example, most of the buildings are covered in inappropriate signage and hoardings. There's also lots of u-pvc windows rather than the traditional timber sash windows. It's downright tacky. I understand that businesses need to advertise, but there should be strong regulation of the Georgian area, as there would be in any other city that has such as asset.

To be fair to the businesses on the upper end of O'Connell Street, they have some very tasteful chromed lettering on the red brick. This should be the standard for signage.

gihj

Scumbags wandering the streets.
Breeding like rats.
No social or political will to clean it up.
I.D.A. announced positive results last week and minimal benefit for Limerick due to the image of the city.

You partake in any illegal drugs and you are part of the problem.

End of.

Kess73

zulutango wrote: »

Further to what's written above, I think there's other issues worth considering ...

1. Signage clutter/pollution
There are simply way too many street signs cluttering the view of the streets, and they are completely damaging the aesthetic of the city centre. Part of this is down to over-zealous application of the law and part of it is laziness and stupidity on the part of the city council. It's easy to tell that there is no city architect in Limerick.

2. Chewing Gum
It appears that after about 20 years of battling the unions, the city council now has started cleaning the streets of chewing gum. A lot of work to do here though.

3. Georgian Quarter
We're trying to sell Limerick as one of the most intact Georgian cities in the world. Yet, take the Crescent for example, most of the buildings are covered in inappropriate signage and hoardings. There's also lots of u-pvc windows rather than the traditional timber sash windows. It's downright tacky. I understand that businesses need to advertise, but there should be strong regulation of the Georgian area, as there would be in any other city that has such as asset.

4. O'Connell Street
Having a national route going straight through the centre of the city is a disaster for its image. I'm not sure if the proposed orbital route is the answer, but the traffic needs to be diverted away from O'Connell Street as soon as possible.

Actually what I always thought would be a smart thing ito do with the Georgian quarter is to restore the outsides so that it looked like the day it was built. Get the window frames having a wooden look, get the guttering etc all back to the style that it originally would have had, then convert the innards into high quality apartments. Keep as much of the Georgian look as possible for the stairways etc.

Basically it would give that section of the city a classic look, whilst also increasing the inner city population.



Also there seems to be no clear plan as to what the city is meant to look like. On a block to block basis there seems to be no flow to the actual city centre with a lot of the newly done areas not really blending too well. William street, upper Thomas street, Sarsfield street and Bedford row have all been done in recent years, but if one looks at the footpath, the kerbs etc they could all be from different cities. The differences in some cases are not huge, but surely it would have made more sense to settle on a look and try to make it somewhat uniform rather than going with a pick and mix approach.



The river and it's lack of use was actually on my mind a bit this evening. I have lived in a number of cities that had rivers running through them, but I think the Shannon in and around the city centre is probably the most underused river of all the places I have lived in. What does not help is the amount of stretches above where the river ceases to be tidal that for one reason or another are quite limited in terms of what craft could use it. Another factor that does not help is the look of the riverside from Shannonbridge out almost as far as Pallaskenry pier.

Itsdacraic

ninty9er wrote: »

There are a few medium sized units, the one next to The Brazen Head, the one next to the old County Library and the Dunnes Unit, but that is about the extent of it.

The CHQ Building on Dublin's Docklands is an example of something that could be done with the Dunnes Building on Sarsfield Street/Liddy Street.

The CHQ is hardly an example for anyone to follow. It's one of the biggest white elephants in Dublin.

pigtown

Kess73 wrote: »

Actually what I always thought would be a smart thing ito do with the Georgian quarter is to restore the outsides so that it looked like the day it was built. Get the window frames having a wooden look, get the guttering etc all back to the style that it originally would have had, then convert the innards into high quality apartments. Keep as much of the Georgian look as possible for the stairways etc.

Basically it would give that section of the city a classic look, whilst also increasing the inner city population.

Totally agree with this and I would love to live in one of those old Georgian buildings. The main barrier to this are rules and regulations. Because they are listed buildings they require the use of specific methods and materials. These are all labour intensive and expensive and that's why it's not happening. My lecturer told us of how he helped his brother restore one of these buildings before the regulations came in and they used steel joists to hold up the floors. However this isn't allowed anymore and the timber option is too expensive. He was saying that most of the buildings are now pretty unsafe to use and all filing cabinets and heavy items in offices are now kept on the ground floor or basement because the risk of them falling through the floor was too high.

Another thing that could do with some attention in the city is its greenery. Why do they cut the grass and then leave it there to rot? Defeats the purpose of cutting it imho. Also the new trees that were planted in the street upgrades could do with being pruned. I know it's not a major issue but it would improve the look of the place. And who is incharge of Castle Lane? Whoever it is could do with weeding it every once in while. It's a disgrace.

ninty9er

Itsdacraic wrote: »

The CHQ is hardly an example for anyone to follow. It's one of the biggest white elephants in Dublin.

It's commercial model, no, but in terms of concept it's great.

Poxyshamrock

pigtown wrote: »

Another thing that could do with some attention in the city is its greenery. Why do they cut the grass and then leave it there to rot? Defeats the purpose of cutting it imho. Also the new trees that were planted in the street upgrades could do with being pruned. I know it's not a major issue but it would improve the look of the place. And who is incharge of Castle Lane? Whoever it is could do with weeding it every once in while. It's a disgrace.

+1

Has anyone ever noticed the dead tree next to Richard Harris on Bedford Row? :rolleyes:

Berty

Some idiot was allowed remove an original railing on mallow street and replaced it with what is simply a steel railing.

Probably because somebody landed on the railing after falling out a window.

We shouldn't have to watch 100s of years of history thwarted by health and safety because people "fall" out windows or if it were replaced because somebody crashed into it.

Also somebody, without planning, on the ennis road replaced their front garden wall by removing the railings on top of the wall. The street is listed after all.

Kess73

Beer Baron wrote: »

Some idiot was allowed remove an original railing on mallow street and replaced it with what is simply a steel railing.

Probably because somebody landed on the railing after falling out a window.

We shouldn't have to watch 100s of years of history thwarted by health and safety because people "fall" out windows or if it were replaced because somebody crashed into it.

Also somebody, without planning, on the ennis road replaced their front garden wall by removing the railings on top of the wall. The street is listed after all.

If it is the place I am thinking of then it was removed because the guy died after being impaled upon the railing. But if those removing the railings wanted to be consistant, they should have removed every set of pointed railings that happen to be below a window rather than the futile gesture of removing a few metres of railing.

Personally I quite like the look of the original railings that are around the city centre, but many of them really do need to be looked after properly rather than letting them rust and fall into disrepair.

Poxyshamrock

If its the railings on the corner of Mallow Street and Catherine place then it's because they were crashed into by a van and knocked into the basement.

The reason they're still not fixed is probably due to the fact it's owned by shoddy landlords and act as tenements flats.

Kess73

pigtown wrote: »

Totally agree with this and I would love to live in one of those old Georgian buildings. The main barrier to this are rules and regulations. Because they are listed buildings they require the use of specific methods and materials. These are all labour intensive and expensive and that's why it's not happening. My lecturer told us of how he helped his brother restore one of these buildings before the regulations came in and they used steel joists to hold up the floors. However this isn't allowed anymore and the timber option is too expensive. He was saying that most of the buildings are now pretty unsafe to use and all filing cabinets and heavy items in offices are now kept on the ground floor or basement because the risk of them falling through the floor was too high.

Another thing that could do with some attention in the city is its greenery. Why do they cut the grass and then leave it there to rot? Defeats the purpose of cutting it imho. Also the new trees that were planted in the street upgrades could do with being pruned. I know it's not a major issue but it would improve the look of the place. And who is incharge of Castle Lane? Whoever it is could do with weeding it every once in while. It's a disgrace.

To be honest those are not as big an obstacle as many developers would have you believe. If a person is prepared to put that bit extra into their business project and they have a local authority who will listen to them and also advice them in detail as to what they can or cannot do, then many protected buildings can be restored to a large degree and still serve a modern purpose.


What I am doing in Cork involves such a building, and I fell in love with an old picture of it from 1902, and from that point on I wanted my project in it, but I wanted to make it look like it did in 1902 on the outside and as much as possible in the inside. I proposed my ideas to the authorities in question, was told what I could do straight away, what I could not do at all, and what I could do if I was prepared to change my original idea. At this point it is nearing completion with a soft launch planned for mid September and an official full launch to follow three to four weeks later, and we hired a shutterbug from the photography forum here on boards to compile pictures of the project from the very start to the very end, so that he takes pics of the work as it gets done stage by stage right up to taking pics of the new team as they get trained etc. Then once I have all the pics, it will be a case of sorting through them and see which ones make the cut and they will be going into a 48 page programme that is being made that will chart the entire project, have pics of it all, and will have pics from 1902 and 2012 side by side as well as a group pic of the new team that. Then all those involved in the project will get one as well as all the new team members.

I think if the right people got their act together, similar things could happen in Limerick on a small scale, on a medium scale and maybe even on a large scale using some of the Georgian buildings. All it takes is imagination and a willingness on all sides to listen and learn. The bit of extra effort would be well worth it in the end.

ninty9er

Kess73 wrote: »

To be honest those are not as big an obstacle as many developers would have you believe. If a person is prepared to put that bit extra into their business project and they have a local authority who will listen to them and also advice them in detail as to what they can or cannot do, then many protected buildings can be restored to a large degree and still serve a modern purpose.


What I am doing in Cork involves such a building, and I fell in love with an old picture of it from 1902, and from that point on I wanted my project in it, but I wanted to make it look like it did in 1902 on the outside and as much as possible in the inside. I proposed my ideas to the authorities in question, was told what I could do straight away, what I could not do at all, and what I could do if I was prepared to change my original idea. At this point it is nearing completion with a soft launch planned for mid September and an official full launch to follow three to four weeks later, and we hired a shutterbug from the photography forum here on boards to compile pictures of the project from the very start to the very end, so that he takes pics of the work as it gets done stage by stage right up to taking pics of the new team as they get trained etc. Then once I have all the pics, it will be a case of sorting through them and see which ones make the cut and they will be going into a 48 page programme that is being made that will chart the entire project, have pics of it all, and will have pics from 1902 and 2012 side by side as well as a group pic of the new team that. Then all those involved in the project will get one as well as all the new team members.

I think if the right people got their act together, similar things could happen in Limerick on a small scale, on a medium scale and maybe even on a large scale using some of the Georgian buildings. All it takes is imagination and a willingness on all sides to listen and learn. The bit of extra effort would be well worth it in the end.

Given the size of some of the buildings around Mallow Street/The Crescent/ Henry Street if 2 families were to come together they could make 2 nice apartments over 4 floors and share the basement for storage.

pigtown

Kess73 wrote: »

To be honest those are not as big an obstacle as many developers would have you believe. If a person is prepared to put that bit extra into their business project and they have a local authority who will listen to them and also advice them in detail as to what they can or cannot do, then many protected buildings can be restored to a large degree and still serve a modern purpose.


What I am doing in Cork involves such a building, and I fell in love with an old picture of it from 1902, and from that point on I wanted my project in it, but I wanted to make it look like it did in 1902 on the outside and as much as possible in the inside. I proposed my ideas to the authorities in question, was told what I could do straight away, what I could not do at all, and what I could do if I was prepared to change my original idea. At this point it is nearing completion with a soft launch planned for mid September and an official full launch to follow three to four weeks later, and we hired a shutterbug from the photography forum here on boards to compile pictures of the project from the very start to the very end, so that he takes pics of the work as it gets done stage by stage right up to taking pics of the new team as they get trained etc. Then once I have all the pics, it will be a case of sorting through them and see which ones make the cut and they will be going into a 48 page programme that is being made that will chart the entire project, have pics of it all, and will have pics from 1902 and 2012 side by side as well as a group pic of the new team that. Then all those involved in the project will get one as well as all the new team members.

I think if the right people got their act together, similar things could happen in Limerick on a small scale, on a medium scale and maybe even on a large scale using some of the Georgian buildings. All it takes is imagination and a willingness on all sides to listen and learn. The bit of extra effort would be well worth it in the end.

I agree totally that the effort shouldn't be an issue but this lecturer was talking about the extra cost these rules add on to a project. I think that as long as they keep the outside of the building as it was originally designed then they should be allowed do what they want to the inside.