Balconys, Patios and Decking Areas becoming Smoking Zones.

Oracle

The downside of balconys, patios, decking or any outside areas in developments now is that they have become year round smoking zones. Mainly because landlords don't want tenants smoking in their houses or apartments.

While thats fine for landlords, the problem is for all the non-smoking owners and tenant neighbours. They now have no privacy with all the smokers hanging around outside their apartments all day, everyday, all year round.

I'd consider these "features" a disadvantage if I were looking for a new home.

Millem

Oracle wrote: »

The downside of balconys, patios, decking or any outside areas in developments now is that they have become year round smoking zones. Mainly because landlords don't want tenants smoking in their houses or apartments.

While thats fine for landlords, the problem is for all the non-smoking owners and tenant neighbours. They now have no privacy with all the smokers hanging around outside their apartments all day, everyday, all year round.

I'd consider these "features" a disadvantage if I were looking for a new home.

Recently in my friend's apartment complex, someone on a higher floor threw a lit cigarette down and it landed on a lower floor's balcony which went up in flames! There are photos up in lobby are with warnings!

Oracle

Yeah its not just the privacy issue, there's also the sidestream smoke, the butts (lighted or otherwise), noise, talking etc ..... In many ways its not really the smokers fault. Allowing smoking only outdoors is not an ideal solution for everyone, unless its in the back garden of your own house.

omega666

Oracle wrote: »

Yeah its not just the privacy issue, there's also the sidestream smoke, the butts (lighted or otherwise), noise, talking etc ..... In many ways its not really the smokers fault. Allowing smoking only outdoors is not an ideal solution for everyone, unless its in the back garden of your own house.

If you want to live in pefect peace and quiet then buy a detached house or live in the country side.

If you buy a shoebox apt in a block with people left, right, below and above then of course noise, talking, other people's habbit’s comes as part of this when everyone is living on top of each other.
You can’t expect your going to get the same level of privacy as a house.

peter_dublin

Oracle wrote: »

Yeah its not just the privacy issue, there's also the sidestream smoke, the butts (lighted or otherwise), noise, talking etc ..... In many ways its not really the smokers fault. Allowing smoking only outdoors is not an ideal solution for everyone, unless its in the back garden of your own house.

These issues also apply else where, I am aware of friends who live in a semi detachted house whose neighbours smoke outside their french doors which by design is all of three feet from their french doors, you are actually writing off all properties bar detached houses on the basis of people smoking.

You are basically saying balconies are responsible for all social ills such as people talking, smoking etc. I see you point about balconies, but the issues you describe are no differant to the issues many people experience in housing estates such as the neighbours out talking while smoking outside their back door as I described above.

It really seems to me at time on these forums that people are anti apartments for no reason at times, the issue described above with the exception of someone throwing down waste (Which should be swiftly stopped by the management company) could easily effect people living in housing estates and if a balcony was as busy as you describe it must be some place because that is a very busy balcony otherwise what you describe is normal life (people talking) and could as easily occur on the otherside of a shared fence as neighbouring balconies.

The_Morrigan

We have an interesting one in our complex - one of the residents doesn't like smoking out his own apt with his BBQ, so he moves it away from his patch and smokes out his neighbours.

I think it's extremely inconsiderate of him, especially as he is aware of the smoke and the lingering smell it leaves in the apts.

peter_dublin

The_Morrigan wrote: »

We have an interesting one in our complex - one of the residents doesn't like smoking out his own apt with his BBQ, so he moves it away from his patch and smokes out his neighbours.

I think it's extremely inconsiderate of him, especially as he is aware of the smoke and the lingering smell it leaves in the apts.

Your 100% right in that it is but no differant from a nieghbour in housing estate smoking out his neighbours, in your case though you have comeback, it's a fairly standard condition is leases that you do not cause nuaisance to your neighbours etc which this is 100% a case of, I would raise it with your Management Company and ask they ask him to desist in doing so.

I know in a friends development BBQs are not allowed even on the balconies anymore due to some genius lighting a desposible one directly on the decking boards but it seems in your case he is lighing it in the common areas which strenghtens your case.

So I would recommend you check your House Rules and Lease and raise it directly with the Management Co/Agent as applicable. I should note I have no issues with people in apartments having BBQs but only on the grounds they don't cause a nuisance to others or damage, in fact I myself have one.

Dr Turk Turkelton

Oracle wrote: »

The downside of balconys, patios, decking or any outside areas in developments now is that they have become year round smoking zones. Mainly because landlords don't want tenants smoking in their houses or apartments.

While thats fine for landlords, the problem is for all the non-smoking owners and tenant neighbours. They now have no privacy with all the smokers hanging around outside their apartments all day, everyday, all year round.

I'd consider these "features" a disadvantage if I were looking for a new home.

How dare these inconsiderate people do what they want on their own property.
My god-smoking=the work of the devil.

The_Morrigan

peter_dublin wrote: »

Your 100% right in that it is but no differant from a nieghbour in housing estate smoking out his neighbours, in your case though you have comeback, it's a fairly standard condition is leases that you do not cause nuaisance to your neighbours etc which this is 100% a case of, I would raise it with your Management Company and ask they ask him to desist in doing so.

I know in a friends development BBQs are not allowed even on the balconies anymore due to some genius lighting a desposible one directly on the decking boards but it seems in your case he is lighing it in the common areas which strenghtens your case.

BBQ's are not permitted and it's been raised with the management agent on numerous occasions - not much they can do other than issue warnings etc. Which they have done.
The most recent incident (last Saturday) may get the eejit in a whole heap of trouble as he left the BBQ unattended in the communal garden, with numerous kids running riot in the same area. All caught on camera so that has been sent to the MA to deal with now.

The problem we have is that the garden is enclosed and the road access in that area is tight because of the unfinished block being parallel to the road. If the kids knock the BBQ and there is a fire it's not exactly easy for the emergency services to access the area.

peter_dublin

The_Morrigan wrote: »

BBQ's are not permitted and it's been raised with the management agent on numerous occasions - not much they can do other than issue warnings etc. Which they have done.
The most recent incident (last Saturday) may get the eejit in a whole heap of trouble as he left the BBQ unattended in the communal garden, with numerous kids running riot in the same area. All caught on camera so that has been sent to the MA to deal with now.

The problem we have is that the garden is enclosed and the road access in that area is tight because of the unfinished block being parallel to the road. If the kids knock the BBQ and there is a fire it's not exactly easy for the emergency services to access the area.

Then your issue seems to be as much about the ineffective agent, the Management Company owes the common areas and it would be interesting to check this from an insurance point of view as well if he is leaving it unattended. Unfortunetly without a effective agent / Management Company things are a lot harder to get done.

Someone would need to clarify this for me but is there grounds for the agent to remove the offending BBQ as they could a satellite dish placed on the building without permission, this may be a possible route to do, another option is to raise it with the insurance and see if any insurance issues arise which require futher cover and offer him the change to cover it but this ruins it for everyone. The agent route may be the best, as I understand the BBQ cannot be removed from site though as this would be thieft.

Otherwise perhaps specifiying an area only in which BBQs are allowed may work with appropraite notice. But people technically cannot store items in the common areas which you could look at this as. I would be more concerned though from an insurance perspective as any claim will most likely be against the Management Companies Policy.

Perhaps time for a solitors letter advising he is in breach of his legal agreement per his lease and then it may be necessary to take it futher down the legal route. God forbid but if something had happened with respect to a child and that BBQ it would have been you and your neighbours paying out for any legal / damages occuring for the next few years.

Cool Rider

I am a light smoker, who smokes in my apt. balcony once or twice a day. The problem is not smoking in the balcony but how smokers dispose off the cigarette butts they normally throw it on some else's balcony which is ridiculous and needs more of personal discipline than anything else. About people talking in balcony, I hate people mentioning that during sociable hours get a detached house if that bothers you as advised here already, if you are living among people they'll speak. Also Irish apartments are very poorly designed and have issues of sound insulation etc. you can hear people's washing machines, when they are talking at normal levels in their living room etc. so cope on till you can afford a mansion, thats what I am doing...

The_Morrigan

peter_dublin wrote: »

Then your issue seems to be as much about the ineffective agent, the Management Company owes the common areas and it would be interesting to check this from an insurance point of view as well if he is leaving it unattended. Unfortunetly without a effective agent / Management Company things are a lot harder to get done.

Someone would need to clarify this for me but is there grounds for the agent to remove the offending BBQ as they could a satellite dish placed on the building without permission, this may be a possible route to do, another option is to raise it with the insurance and see if any insurance issues arise which require futher cover and offer him the change to cover it but this ruins it for everyone. The agent route may be the best, as I understand the BBQ cannot be removed from site though as this would be thieft.

Otherwise perhaps specifiying an area only in which BBQs are allowed may work with appropraite notice. But people technically cannot store items in the common areas which you could look at this as. I would be more concerned though from an insurance perspective as any claim will most likely be against the Management Companies Policy.

Perhaps time for a solitors letter advising he is in breach of his legal agreement per his lease and then it may be necessary to take it futher down the legal route. God forbid but if something had happened with respect to a child and that BBQ it would have been you and your neighbours paying out for any legal / damages occuring for the next few years.

To be fair to the MA these events are recent and he is trying to sort it out. He does have to issue warnings first before he can do much more and he is in constant contact with a few of the residents who are able to see the events take place. He also has to make sure he is issuing warnings to the correct unit etc. Thankfully we don't have that much BBQ weather but it is something that some of the residents have issue with due to the location. If they decided to BBQ in the open park on the other side of the block there would be no issue at all - it's the enclosed garden is the issue.

With regards to smokers, that doesn't seem to raise any problems, they seem to be aware of the smoke/location of windows and balconies of their neighbours etc. There are of course times where you can smell the cigarettes depending on the weather, but I just close the window for the few minutes they are out there!

peter_dublin

The_Morrigan wrote: »

To be fair to the MA these events are recent and he is trying to sort it out. He does have to issue warnings first before he can do much more and he is in constant contact with a few of the residents who are able to see the events take place. He also has to make sure he is issuing warnings to the correct unit etc. Thankfully we don't have that much BBQ weather but it is something that some of the residents have issue with due to the location. If they decided to BBQ in the open park on the other side of the block there would be no issue at all - it's the enclosed garden is the issue.

With regards to smokers, that doesn't seem to raise any problems, they seem to be aware of the smoke/location of windows and balconies of their neighbours etc. There are of course times where you can smell the cigarettes depending on the weather, but I just close the window for the few minutes they are out there!

Seems it is all in hand then if he is actively handling it, as you said there is a due process to be followed which I didn't enter here as it is assumed all are aware of it.

@Cool Rider: I agree with you fully, most if not all of the issues here would effect people living in semi detached houses as much as anyone living in an apartment. As I said earlier I think some people just like to rant against apartments for whatever reason. You will also hear the sound argument about a lot of newly built houses as well so I don't think poor sound insulation stanadards is just applicable to apartments, in my rental unit the wall between myself and my neighbour is a 4" block laid on its side, then sand, cement screeded and plastered. I've yet to hear them.

Seems we all need Detached houses now so other people don't bother us with their "living".

The_Morrigan

I must say for the most part our development is grand - I don't hear the neighbours unless there is a wild party, which isn't that frequent and I don't notice people making noise on their balconies or from within their apts.

Maybe our development is rare or I've just become accustomed to the general noises. My mother can never sleep when she comes to visit but her own house is in the middle of the countryside so it's a completely different type of environment.

Oracle

My point is balconys weren't intended to be used as everyday smoking areas, and when they are used in that way it can cause problems for others.

The problem with the noise is specifically to do with being on the balcony so frequently. When smokers are on their baloneys they get mobile calls, or if they're not alone are talking to each other, sometimes very loudly. If they weren't outside smoking they'd be talking and answering their calls inside their homes like everyone else.

There's another issue as well, because you know the smokers next door will be constantly on their balcony, as a non-smoker you're not inclined to use your balcony. You're effectively prevented from using your balcony because your neighbours are smokers. As I've said the problem is these spaces weren't intended for use as smoking areas.

peter_dublin

Oracle wrote: »

My point is balconys weren't intended to be used as everyday smoking areas, and when they are used in that way it can cause problems for others.

The problem with the noise is specifically to do with being on the balcony so frequently. When smokers are on their baloneys they get mobile calls, or if they're not alone are talking to each other, sometimes very loudly. If they weren't outside smoking they'd be talking and answering their calls inside their homes like everyone else.

There's another issue as well, because you know the smokers next door will be constantly on their balcony, as a non-smoker you're not inclined to use your balcony. You're effectively prevented from using your balcony because your neighbours are smokers. As I've said the problem is these spaces weren't intended for use as smoking areas.

But you miss the point, the same applies if your neighbours smoked outside their french doors as in my friends case, I think you are being sensationalist, "they get mobile calls", really.. what has this got to do with smoking, smoking didn't cause the call to happen, they would get that call anyway so the connection between the two is only that they happended in the same time period. If they were outside their back door smoking and they got a call it would be exactly the same, this is not a balcony or apartment specific issue. Neither were back gardens designed to be smoking areas, that's why their called gardens and balconies are called balconies but spaces are multipurpose.

Perhaps you should rename this thread "I live in an apartment and my neighbour smokes on his balcony and makes what I consider too much noise therefore denying me enjoyment of my balcony".

username123

What were balconies designed to be used for?

As far as I am aware they were designed for people to sit outside on them?

So what difference does it make if they smoke or not? One of my neighbours sits and talks loudly on his balcony. He isnt a smoker though. Another neighbour leaves a jack russell terrier out on the balcony for hours on end barking and disturbing everyone, the dog isnt smoking either.

mikom

Oracle wrote: »

As I've said the problem is these spaces weren't intended for use as smoking areas.

Their correct use is for drying clothes......

conorhal

Oracle wrote: »

My point is balconys weren't intended to be used as everyday smoking areas, and when they are used in that way it can cause problems for others.

The problem with the noise is specifically to do with being on the balcony so frequently. When smokers are on their baloneys they get mobile calls, or if they're not alone are talking to each other, sometimes very loudly. If they weren't outside smoking they'd be talking and answering their calls inside their homes like everyone else.

There's another issue as well, because you know the smokers next door will be constantly on their balcony, as a non-smoker you're not inclined to use your balcony. You're effectively prevented from using your balcony because your neighbours are smokers. As I've said the problem is these spaces weren't intended for use as smoking areas.

As a smoker, I usually have a smoke on my balcony, but I'd agree with some of your points, it's irritating when people step out onto their balcony for 'a bit of privacy' to take a call (and it's hardly just smokers who do this BTW) and then proceed to shout down the phone so that everybody in the complex knows their business.
Parties can also be a problem when smokers congregate on a balcony late at night having very loud conversations, but again that's not exclusive to smokers, on a nice evening where I live, most parties will inevitably spill out onto the balcony, which can be pretty annoying at 4am on a Thursday night.

These problems however are down to inconsiderate people, not smokers. If I have people over and there are smokers among them, I'll specifically tell them after 10pm, "go out there quietly for your smoke and come directly back in and don't disturb my neighbors will you?"
As for the rest of your complaint, I get the feeling you're saying that you don't feel comfortable going out onto your balcony because your neighbor might out there. That attitude I don't have much sympathy with, it smacks of a pretty reclusive, antisocial attitude. You're not one of those wierd neighbours that almost recoils in horror if the people next door say good morning to you if they meet you on the step are you?
That or you live in one of those God awful developments with a bolt on balcony with nothing separating it from the next balcony but three feet or air or some tiny glass partition, if that’s the case then it’s the fault of the planners, architects and developers than didn't give a hoot about the fact that somebody would eventually have to live in some of the dumps that they built. In which case I'd move. My nice balcony is about 5ft by 12ft and has a brick wall either side of it that slopes up to 6ft in height, so as balconies go it's a pretty private space where I can smoke to my hearts content and not bother anybody.

Oracle

I am disappointed by the reaction to my post, but not surprised. I wasn't expecting to get a sympathetic reponse on Boards.ie about this issue. Although that doesn't mean its not a problem.

The_Morrigan

Oracle wrote: »

I am disappointed by the reaction to my post, but not surprised. I wasn't expecting to get a sympathetic reponse on Boards.ie about this issue. Although that doesn't mean its not a problem.

I don't think anyone has disagreed with you in fairness. However, everyone has different circumstances, points of views, levels of tolerance etc. and these have been thrown into the discussion.

Millem

Oracle wrote: »

The downside of balconys, patios, decking or any outside areas in developments now is that they have become year round smoking zones. Mainly because landlords don't want tenants smoking in their houses or apartments.

While thats fine for landlords, the problem is for all the non-smoking owners and tenant neighbours. They now have no privacy with all the smokers hanging around outside their apartments all day, everyday, all year round.

I'd consider these "features" a disadvantage if I were looking for a new home.

I rented an apartment for one year in a lovely brand new complex. Most days I would find cigarette butts on the balcony (I did not smoke) so obviously someone above was throwing them down. I don't think whoever did it even realised that they landed in a pile which I had to clean up! The same way I frequently see people (including friends) throwing cigarette butts out of car windows and do not see it as littering the same as throwing a crisp wrapper on the ground.

reprazant

Oracle wrote: »

I am disappointed by the reaction to my post, but not surprised. I wasn't expecting to get a sympathetic reponse on Boards.ie about this issue. Although that doesn't mean its not a problem.

What do you think that balconies should be used for if not for people to be on them?

Your problem seems to be just that your neighbour is on them a lot and you feel that you can't enjoy your balcony because your neighbour is beside you.