Irish Veteran & Vintage Car Club

IVVCC

Hi everyone,

Just letting you guys know that we are increasing our presence on the internet and through the various social media channels.

We have just released our new website, so please drop by and give us as much feedback as you can as this is the best way we can serve you our members and all affiliate club members too.

www.ivvcc.ie

We are up and running successfully on Facebook with lots of articles and pictures of rally's (including many from Terenure last weekend)

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Ivvcc/239954816014643

We are also on Twitter
@IVVCC

And of course now on Boards.ie with the username IVVCC.

We are putting an emphasis on increasing our interaction with affiliated clubs through our Affiliated Clubs Liaison Officer Shane Houlihan who can be contact via the email address clubs@ivvcc.ie

We are also looking to increase the diversity of the rally's that take place as was recently seen when we worked with our colleagues in the Blessington Kilkenny & Clonmel clubs on the Spring rally which this year had different routes and distances for each class and started in multiple location before converging for lunch stops and overnight accommodation. ( we actually visited Blessington, Dungarvan, Dunmore East, Dungarvan & Kilkenny!)

Finally we are also looking to increase the number of events for modern classics and this change in emphasis could be seen from our stand at the Terenure show last week where we had a really good selection of modern classic members displaying cars.

I look forward to posting a lot more here going forward but in the mean time definitely "Like" our Facebook page, follow us on Twitter and if you have any questions please drop me a PM.

Thanks,

Denis O'Donovan
IVVCC

brandonw123

Hi Denis,

Good to see the internet presence growing and some focus on modern classics.
I have some modern classics 1980's and also some older 1970's models.
Can I ask what is the official line by law on NCT requirements?
I have a 1982 classic and enquired at my local Garda station and the guard present told me once it is over 30 years old, he thought it is NCT exempt.

However I see some publications and the NCT website claiming that cars are only exempt if pre 1st jan 1980.

There is some confusion regarding this and some nervous 1980/81/82 drivers out there who are unsure and potentially risking 5 penalty points.
The cars are roadworthy and used about 6 or 7 times per year typically from May to August and it is additional hassle and expense to have to NCT every year if not legally required.

Some of the NCT testers are unfamiliar with older cars and how to handle them and some if the tests carried out are closer to abuse of the car than a test ( including revving the engine to the point that has caused engine damage as rev limiters are not fitted to classic cars)

Can you clarify the official position please regarding the NCT exemption as I am nervous bringing my classic car to the NCT centre to be potentially damaged?

Best Regards,
Brandon

Diabhalta

... discovering internet in 2012? (sorry.. I had to...)

macplaxton

brandonw123 wrote: »

Can I ask what is the official line by law on NCT requirements?

Hi Brandon,

I hope you don't mind me chipping in here and answering part of your question:

The official position since the 4th January 2010 is that all vehicles registered from the 1st January 1980 are required to undergo a NCT test and since 1st June 2011, all vehicles over 10 years old have to be tested annually.

You can find this information in S.I. No. 567/2009 — Road Traffic (National Car Test) Regulations 2009 on the Irish Statute Book website.

Regulation 3(5)a:
"3. (5) This Regulation does not apply to a vehicle—
(a) first registered prior to 1 January 1980,"

Regulation 3(2)(b)(i) :
"3. (2) The test due dates for a vehicle mentioned in paragraph (1) are:
(b) from 1 June 2011, the anniversary dates mentioned in paragraph (1) and—
(i) from the tenth anniversary of first registration of the vehicle, each subsequent anniversary of those dates..."

From the above you can see that it is quite clear which cars the NCT regulations apply to.

I appreciate your concern about the practical conduct of the test, and cannot answer this aspect as I've no experience of presenting an older vehicle for test, even voluntarily. All I can suggest is that it might be something worth discussing in advance with the appropriate NCT centre as to whether or not there are/can be special arrangements permitted to remain with the vehicle or nearby whilst the test is being conducted.

Hope this helps.

hi5

As regards NCT cut off dates, its all in the Charter, point 3 to be precise.

BTW, could the details of the charter, like tax rates and VRT rates be updated.

Thanks.

IVVCC

All,

If you can let me look into this issue a little further I can give you as much information as we the IVVCC have regarding the cut over to NCT exempt status.
Regards,
Denis

IVVCC

All,

The most up to date information regarding the NCT I could come across from our technical expert was the following...

Vehicles taxed as VinVet (i.e. private use) that were first registered (anywhere) prior to 1st January 1980 are presently exempt from the NCT. This is not a rolling date. Vehicles that are taxed commercially or as PSVs (e.g. wedding hire) must be tested regardless of age. The road tax classification (VinVet) applies when a vehicle reaches the thirtieth anniversary of the date of its first registration; this is a rolling date at present. Many people confuse these two issues.

I am puzzled by your correspondent’s reference to over-revving. The NCT manual specifies a maximum of 2500RPM (or the manufacturer’s recommended RPM if different) for emissions testing.

I hope this helps.

Any other questions let me know.

Regards,

Denis

hi5

Hi Denis

I've a question that was mentioned a few times previously here on boards.

Does the IVVCC have an opinion on the current registration system for classic and vintage cars, neither the year and county series, or the ZV series(with five numbers) are in keeping with the original style of registration which would have applied to these cars.
There are hundreds of thousands of unissued pre 1987 series which could still be used.
I know the IVVCC was instrumental in getting the ZV (which was an unissued Dublin mark), so why was it allowed slip into 5 numbers?
Can the IVVCC lobby the relevent athorities to re-issue the unused pre 87 series registrations?
A selling point would be that within this series there are some desirable numbers which could make the cash strapped government a tidy sum if they were put on a cherished list. eg. 1 VIP, which was never issued.

carchaeologist

hi5 wrote: »

Hi Denis

I've a question that was mentioned a few times previously here on boards.

Does the IVVCC have an opinion on the current registration system for classic and vintage cars, neither the year and county series, or the ZV series(with five numbers) are in keeping with the original style of registration which would have applied to these cars.
There are hundreds of thousands of unissued pre 1987 series which could still be used.
I know the IVVCC was instrumental in getting the ZV (which was an unissued Dublin mark), so why was it allowed slip into 5 numbers?
Can the IVVCC lobby the relevent athorities to re-issue the unused pre 87 series registrations?
A selling point would be that within this series there are some desirable numbers which could make the cash strapped government a tidy sum if they were put on a cherished list. eg. 1 VIP, which was never issued.

This was about to be my next point. But without selling off 'desirable' or previously reused issues. Start each series at 100 and go from there.

There must be someone in the IVVCC that feels strongly about this? Putting old classics, as in 30s and 40s and earlier cars on either 5 digit ZVs or the retarded new import registrations is plain silly.

corktina

Can I ask what the IVVCC thinks of the widespread practice of ringing imported cars on old brown tax books?

I ask this specifically as it endangers the priviledges we have and a reform in the numbering system as touched on in Carchys post would eradicate this practise to a large extent. Many owners of imported vehicles would pay for a "cherished" classic number

carchaeologist

There is plenty of complete unissued older series registrations from various counties still available. Re issuing already used should not be allowed, keep them separate and have the unissued series numbers to differentiate the imports while still keeping the character of the vehicle. Maybe keep the low numbers for the really old cars.

Yes it's a small thing in many peoples eyes, and perhaps not such a big deal on newer classic cars but when you talk of 1920s cars it really stands out.

My thinking is that the monkeys at the controls in the tax offices just don't want the extra paperwork involved.

I look forward to the IVVCC reply on this.

mattroche

I was at the N.C.T. in Ennis to-day to clear a car, and the inspector confirmed that all cars after 1st Jan. 1980, must have a current N.C.T. He made a very valid point, ! anyone with a classic car keeps them in good order, as they are their pride and joy, and should have no problem getting a N.C.T.! He added that the Co2 emissiomn is checked on all cars post 1980. I hope that this helps. I also asked about the rumour that classic status will not be given for cars from 1983 onwards, he had no knowledge of that. He did pass a comment that all cars might become liable for a N.C.T. simular to the U.K. laws, I think that was just a personal opinion, nothing more.

brandonw123

All,
It is clear now that if a car is post 1st Jan 1980 that car must have NCT.

I was led to believe this was not the case by law and the rolling 30 year rule applied

Thanks for the clarification.

corktina

mattroche wrote: »

I was at the N.C.T. in Ennis to-day to clear a car, and the inspector confirmed that all cars after 1st Jan. 1980, must have a current N.C.T. He made a very valid point, ! anyone with a classic car keeps them in good order, as they are their pride and joy, and should have no problem getting a N.C.T.! He added that the Co2 emissiomn is checked on all cars post 1980. I hope that this helps. I also asked about the rumour that classic status will not be given for cars from 1983 onwards, he had no knowledge of that. He did pass a comment that all cars might become liable for a N.C.T. simular to the U.K. laws, I think that was just a personal opinion, nothing more.

I dont think emissions are part of the NCT until you get a car way into the nineties...it wasnt checked on my 1990 Sierra anyway

IVVCC

Hi guys,

There are a number of different issues being put forward here so it might just be easier to keep track if they are under one thread heading each.

Below is a short reply on each subject before I can get more in depth info from the rest of the club on the raised areas of concern...I hope this helps.

@ hi5,
In relation to the number plate issue as far as I'm aware it was a real battle for the late Finbarr Corry to even get the ZV number plate introduced. On the back of this unless we have a sympathetic ear from the minister of Transport or other have other politicians on our side, trying to resurrect other such numbers may well be a lot lower of the current administrations list of priorities than lets say looking to increase ways of increasing more revenue from a wider range of tolls.
That being said this is where the whole area of affiliated clubs associated to the the IVVCC comes to the fore, as this larger group of voices provide the IVVCC with more weight behind any arguments/suggestions that are put to the powers that be.

@ carchaeologist/corktina
In relation to the practice of ringing imported cars on old brown tax books, this is not something that I'm personally aware of. That being said as points raised here will be put to the relevant individuals in the IVVCC so I can get an appropriate answer to raised issues.
My personal feeling is that there are individuals involved in govt administration who actually don't have the knowledge to the same degree as enthusiasts do that basicaially they don't/can't differentiate one vehicle from another.
As I said above I will put this to the individuals within the club but again don't be shy raising these issues through your affiliated clubs to the IVVCC so there is extra weight behind these Important issues.
Regards,
Denis

macplaxton

corktina wrote: »

I dont think emissions are part of the NCT until you get a car way into the nineties...it wasnt checked on my 1990 Sierra anyway

Emissions are part of the NCT. Details can be found in the NCT Manual

Emission limits will vary depending on the year of manufacture of the vehicle and become progressively tighter for newer vehicles. Broadly speaking, the limit will not be any stricter than the emission limit when it was new.

Emissions testing applied to 4 stroke spark-ignition (petrol, gas, etc.) and 4 stroke compression-ignition (diesel, etc.) vehicles. Two-stroke and rotary piston (Wankel) engines are exempt.

kasper

my renault 9 1985 went through the nct test in the last few months and they only done a smoke test , car passed

corktina

IVVCC wrote: »

@ carchaeologist/corktina
In relation to the practice of ringing imported cars on old brown tax books, this is not something that I'm personally aware of. Denis

CLUNK....did you hear that? twas my jaw dropping and hitting the desktop...How could you not be aware of this? It is RIFE in the hobby, just go to shows and check out the cars with UK numbers etched in the glass and old Irish plates, or check out the tax books for sale all the time on Donedeal and the like.... I could list you a couple of dozen just from my local area!

corktina

macplaxton wrote: »

Emissions are part of the NCT. Details can be found in the NCT Manual

Emission limits will vary depending on the year of manufacture of the vehicle and become progressively tighter for newer vehicles. Broadly speaking, the limit will not be any stricter than the emission limit when it was new.

Emissions testing applied to 4 stroke spark-ignition (petrol, gas, etc.) and 4 stroke compression-ignition (diesel, etc.) vehicles. Two-stroke and rotary piston (Wankel) engines are exempt.

the limits shown for my Sierra was "0.00"

carchaeologist

corktina wrote: »

CLUNK....did you hear that? twas my jaw dropping and hitting the desktop...How could you not be aware of this? It is RIFE in the hobby, just go to shows and check out the cars with UK numbers etched in the glass and old Irish plates, or check out the tax books for sale all the time on Donedeal and the like.... I could list you a couple of dozen just from my local area!

While i understand your shock Corky, to be fair here the IVVCC does not really deal with the kind of cars that most of us on here do normally, theres a lot of high end and much more expensive stuff in their range of vehicles. With respect i would say they are quite removed from what would be the 'Grass roots' enthusiast, of which there are many of us posting here that are into ordinary 70s and 80s vehicles which are not what would be if termed correctly Vintage and Veteran. They call these sort of cars 'youngtimers' as opposed to 'oldtimers' in europe, which i think is a great description.

As far as i can see most of the ringing goes on with guys wanting an authentic looking plate as opposed to the two rubbish choices that are there for import vehicles, guys avoiding the NCT by aging the car pre 1980, and/or trying to avoid paying high road tax on a newer car,etc, etc.
I doubt there is much of this going on with the high end and really old stuff because of the value of the cars and the rarity factor also making the cars well known in enthusiasts circles.

I wonder what Finbarr Corry made of the current 5 digit issues?

unkel

hi5 wrote: »

BTW, could the details of the charter, like tax rates and VRT rates be updated.

Done! I think. If anyone spots any inaccuracies or issues, please PM me and I'll try and get it sorted.

corktina

carchaeologist wrote: »

While i understand your shock Corky, to be fair here the IVVCC does not really deal with the kind of cars that most of us on here do normally, theres a lot of high end and much more expensive stuff in their range of vehicles. With respect i would say they are quite removed from what would be the 'Grass roots' enthusiast, of which there are many of us posting here that are into ordinary 70s and 80s vehicles which are not what would be if termed correctly Vintage and Veteran. They call these sort of cars 'youngtimers' as opposed to 'oldtimers' in europe, which i think is a great description.

As far as i can see most of the ringing goes on with guys wanting an authentic looking plate as opposed to the two rubbish choices that are there for import vehicles, guys avoiding the NCT by aging the car pre 1980, and/or trying to avoid paying high road tax on a newer car,etc, etc.
I doubt there is much of this going on with the high end and really old stuff because of the value of the cars and the rarity factor also making the cars well known in enthusiasts circles.

I wonder what Finbarr Corry made of the current 5 digit issues?

with respect its the IVVCC and therefore they SHOULD know about issues which will affect their priviledges just as much as yours and mine

The Aussie

Hello Denis, i sent a few emails to people in the IVVCC a while ago asking if they knew if the build records from the Lincoln & Nolan from the Baggot St plant were still in existence, do you or any of your members know if they were saved?

IVVCC

@ corktina
As I mentioned in my above post I'm not personally aware of that practice. I will however bring the matter to the powers that be in IVVCC as promised and provide you with a reply.

Its Important that matters such as these are brought to the attention not only of the likes of the IVVCC but relevant government authorities so practices can potentially be stopped at source.

@The Aussie, do you know who you sent the messages to so I can follow up with them? I will follow up and revert

Carazy

The IVVCC representative has never heard of classic/vintage cars and ringing of old brown tax books.

Sorry if I'm being an a$$ but get another hobby if you are that out of touch.

djcrossflow

hi i hav a mk2 escort 1975 and am trying to get insurance

IVVCC

@ carazy

As I mentioned in my above post was not personally aware of that practice, but thanks to being on Boards.ie and interacting with other enthusiasts through this other and social media sites I now do!

This is part of the exercise I'm implementing for the IVVCC, that information like this is being shared by like minded individuals every day and not just at club meetings or shows etc on an irregular basis with a local/regional reach.

Getting back on topic...I'm sure other members of the IVVCC do know of the practice and as its illegal then so do the Gardai and they I'm sure themselves are active in trying to stamp it out.

I have communicated the details of the above posts to individuals within the IVVCC so I can get a proper answer for everyone.

It must be noted that the IVVCC is only an umbrella organization for car clubs in Ireland, as such its powers only reach as far as lobbying the authorities. Implementation and removal of such practices falls on the legal authorities in this country such as the Gardai.

Everyone who posts here, who has a classic, veteran or vintage etc car doesn't want the practices you mention to continue, so if anyone knows that its happening and can prove it they need to contact the authorities.

charlie1966

Hi IVVCC. It's good to see the organization taking an interest in this side of classic car ownership.
Regarding the old log book issue, how many who have seen this practice going on at shows or online have reported it, or is it left to someone else so "I" don't get my hands dirty?

Silvera

Hi Denis and welcome to the forum!
Its great to finally have an IVVCC representative on this forum.

With regard to the 'ZV' issue, I would like to add some comments.
Firstly, it should be acknowledged that the issuing of the ZV 'Vintage' series back in 1992 was a very welcome development for Irish vintage and classic vehicle owners. Tributes must be paid to the late Mr. Corry and his colleagues for their trojan work in this regard.

Secondly, I do not believe the 'powers that be' will re-issue unused old series registrations, however I do believe that the IVVCC has a good case to argue for a re-devlopment of the current ZV series.

My proposal would be that future ZV plates be issued in the following (reversed) formats -

1 ZV - 999 ZV (pre-1920 vehicles)
1000 ZV - 9999 ZV (1921 - 1969 vehicles)
ZVA 1 - ZVA 999
ZVB 1 - ZVB 999
ZVC 1 - ZVC 999
ZVD 1 - ZVD 999
etc etc etc (1970 - 1986 vehicles)

IMHO, the current series of 7 digit ZV plates are totally out-of-step with the original (pre-1987) plates which always had a maximum of 6 digits, and I believe are not in keeping with the spirit of the original (1992) ZV concession/allocation to vintage vehicle owners.

IVVCC

All,

I've spoken to members of the board in the IVVCC and the below statement was provided to me in relation to the ZV registration number issue.


The board of the IVVCC are actively working on having an updated registration system introduced.
While the ZV system was a great success, it's high numbers are no longer suitable for historic vehicles. We therefore hope that we can reach agreement with the authorities to introduce a new system - however, as the government is such a large organisation, these things take time, but it should be noted that the club will continue to work hard on all enthusiast's behalves until such a system is introduced.

I know this statement may not go far enough for some, but I would request that enthusiasts be patient in the knowledge that there are interested parties working behind the scenes to have implemented a request that is close to many peoples hearts.
These matters do take time especially dealing when with government, however as information comes my way I will post relevant details here too.

Regards,

Denis O'Donovan
IVVCC

hi5

Thanks Denis, thats good news, people on this site will help any way they can.
Have you looked at circulating petitions to be signed by the numerous club members around the country.
Every signiture is a potential vote in the eyes of a politician, and even though many politians may have little interest in the car scene, they all want to been seen as having done something positive come election time, the numbers of classic/vintage enthusiasts should hold serious weight at this stage.

IVVCC

Hi hi5,

The idea of multiple petitions drawn from affiliated clubs to support the lobbying that's currently being undertaken by the IVVCC is a good one and one I'll definitely pass on to our affiliate secretary (Shane Houlihan email: clubs@ivvcc.ie)

Regards,

Denis O'Donovan
IVVCC