(Article) Think hardware: Ireland’s master plan to generate 20,000 new jobs

djpbarry

Ireland has the potential to create 20,000 extra jobs in the manufacturing sector within six months – that’s according to the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation Richard Bruton, TD. Bruton is on to something here. In the tech world, while some say ‘software is eating the world’ (and it is), people still get excited by shiny physical objects.

http://www.siliconrepublic.com/careers/item/28216-think-hardware-irelands

Good article on the potential to drive forward Ireland's high-end manufacturing sector. Ireland has attained a certain critical mass in semiconductor, medical devices and pharma manufacturing - there are a lot of people in the country with a lot of experience of these industries, which have been big contributors to the high levels of exports Ireland is currently producing.

However, what's lacking is indigenous growth - Ireland is still very heavily dependent on multi-nationals for economic growth. While Ireland in 2012 could definitely be described as a high-tech economy, maintaining this status over the coming decades will require indigenous industries driving innovation.

Welease

djpbarry wrote: »

However, what's lacking is indigenous growth - Ireland is still very heavily dependent on multi-nationals for economic growth. While Ireland in 2012 could definitely be described as a high-tech economy, maintaining this status over the coming decades will require indigenous industries driving innovation.

But that will require indigenous funding and support.. and that seems to be a somewhat major issue, and somethat the government appear to have done very little about. We could also send people to the moon in 6 months.. but we probably won't either..

Case in point.. My latest invention (related to mobile phone technology) is in the final stages of patent approval funding by a US multinational.. It will cost about 50K to secure the patent, before anyone even looked at manufacturing and delivery costs (millions). These patent submissions are not part of my normal job, I do them for fun and pass over the rights to groups who can hopefully make some cool products a reality...

I have a few more in the pipeline at present.. If i took the next one and fired it off in Mr. Bruton's direction (or yours) and said here you go.. this is something I can give to a huge multinational for free, but I will give the idea to you to go and create some jobs.. what would happen? where would you get the seed funding to get this up and running?

Sadly, there is likely a good reason Mr. Casey is a kingmaker in Silicon Valley and Asia.. and not here...
Thats not to say we shouldn't try.. but talk is cheap.. lets see the government and relevant agencies land those 20,000 in 6 months..

General Atomic

Enterprise Ireland and other funding agencies have been granted a lot of money in order to stimulate indigenous industries. I'm part of a start-up that will be receiving matching funds from them with very favorable conditions attached. There is support out there for home-grown companies but you do need to seek it out and go through some red tape.

Welease

General Atomic wrote: »

Enterprise Ireland and other funding agencies have been granted a lot of money in order to stimulate indigenous industries. I'm part of a start-up that will be receiving matching funds from them with very favorable conditions attached. There is support out there for home-grown companies but you do need to seek it out and go through some red tape.

Agreed.. but matching grants etc. do require equal funding from other sources.. Getting technological funding from banks or investors in Ireland I would imagine would be somewhat complicated and slow hence why i imagine Mr. Casey is in SV where investor funding is far more readily available... you won't see 20K jobs 6 months from now here..

(I should clarify, I have never attempted to secure external funding for designs, and I have no interest in that particular path, I am happy with the invention side alone... but there are enough good companies failing recently due to restricted funding that I imagine it's a slow and complicated process if even achievable)

Edit - Meant to say.. Best of luck with the new venture

djpbarry

Welease wrote: »

But that will require indigenous funding and support.. and that seems to be a somewhat major issue, and somethat the government appear to have done very little about.

I'd rather the government focus on creating an environment conducive to indigenous growth, not necessarily directly funding enterprises. For example, provide incentives for people to start their own business, like welfare supports in the event that the business doesn’t work out for example, so people are more inclined to take a risk. Also, get rid of the absolutely ridiculous criteria that need to be fulfilled in order to secure a work permit to attract more talented individuals to the country.

Welease

djpbarry wrote: »

I'd rather the government focus on creating an environment conducive to indigenous growth, not necessarily directly funding enterprises. For example, provide incentives for people to start their own business, like welfare supports in the event that the business doesn’t work out for example, so people are more inclined to take a risk. Also, get rid of the absolutely ridiculous criteria that need to be fulfilled in order to secure a work permit to attract more talented individuals to the country.

I think most people will agree that most elements need to be somewhat in place for such a colossal ramp in hardware manufacturing to take place in such a short space, especially if you are going to manu. new indigenous designs and not just have a price war with India/China to manufacture multinational designs.

Article wise, maybe it's me but it was a bit disappointing that it stated master plan, but then no mention what that actual plan was.. Just that we could.. possibly.. maybe :cool:

Watch this space i guess

djpbarry

Welease wrote: »

I think most people will agree that most elements need to be somewhat in place for such a colossal ramp in hardware manufacturing to take place in such a short space....

I probably should have clarified in the OP that I'm not really endorsing Mr. Bruton's plan, but rather endorsing the general idea of encouraging indigenous development in the tech sector.

Welease

djpbarry wrote: »

I probably should have clarified in the OP that I'm not really endorsing Mr. Bruton's plan, but rather endorsing the general idea of encouraging indigenous development in the tech sector.

Absolutely.. Your post was spot on, it's exactly what we need more of..
Thats why I'm dying to know what this master plan is (as I'm sure anyone with an interest is)..

Icepick

another job initiative, eh?

golfwallah

Welease wrote: »

Absolutely.. Your post was spot on, it's exactly what we need more of..
Thats why I'm dying to know what this master plan is (as I'm sure anyone with an interest is)..

Interesting that Minister Bruton has asked the Manufacturing Development Forum to develop their plan for the manufacturing sector within six months: http://www.merrionstreet.ie/index.php/2012/07/bruton-to-bring-in-industry-experts-to-drive-new-industrial-policy-for-manufacturing-sector/

Looks like a good initiative – bringing together experts from indigenous and multinational manufacturing companies, plus representatives from Government development agencies Enterprise Ireland, IDA and Forfas and academia.

Easy to be cynical and knock yet another jobs initiative but, to me, this is positive news. As they say, “Rome wasn’t built in a day” and a goal driven forum with defined timescale is a positive step in the right direction.

Jeez enough with government interference, if national internship schemes the IDA, & the public sector is our way of creating jobs then lets just become communists.

If the government just focused on making the right conditions for business then people could do it themselves

golfwallah

Deleted User wrote: »

Jeez enough with government interference, if national internship schemes the IDA, & the public sector is our way of creating jobs then lets just become communists.

If the government just focused on making the right conditions for business then people could do it themselves

I don't really see this as interference - no point in implementing policies without talking to people in industry - and that is precisely what is happening here.

In all fairness, if you read the statement on the link in my earlier post, you will see that the forum is focused on making conditions right for business ("driving the development of policy actions to be included in the plan on manufacturing to be published before the end of 2012").

But I entirely agree that it's up to government to create the right conditions whereby people will be enabled to do it for themselves.

Let's hope this produces the results intended.

Cork boy 55

Maybe this is a topic for another thread
but what effect will 3-D printing on manufacturing in Ireland and Europe.
for job creation and larg-scale manufacturing in Ireland
Do these machines off-set the cheap labour costs for many products?

See this short demo here on youtube for what I am on about (i.e. 3-D printing)
If anyone is aware of another thread somewhere on Boards.ie please direct me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aghzpO_UZE

n97 mini

The reasons why the likes of this:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0223/jobs.html
and this:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0108/dell.html

are now gone need to be addressed.

djpbarry

n97 mini wrote: »

The reasons why the likes of this:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0223/jobs.html
and this:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0108/dell.html

are now gone need to be addressed.

I don't now about NEC, but the Dell facility is/was just an assembly line - that's not the kind of thing we're talking about here.

golfwallah

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

Maybe this is a topic for another thread
but what effect will 3-D printing on manufacturing in Ireland and Europe.
for job creation and larg-scale manufacturing in Ireland
Do these machines off-set the cheap labour costs for many products?

See this short demo here on youtube for what I am on about (i.e. 3-D printing)
If anyone is aware of another thread somewhere on Boards.ie please direct me.

Ha ha!

Yes, I think you need to find another thread for spoof and FunTheory videos .

antoobrien

golfwallah wrote: »

Ha ha!

Yes, I think you need to find another thread for spoof and FunTheory videos .

It's real enough, HP (among others) have a product: http://www8.hp.com/uk/en/products/3d-printers/index.html

C14N

Is indigenous manufacture of computer hardware feasible? I don't really know much about it but I would reason that it's very expensive and requires a lot of capital to just get started. I mean if you see inside the manufacturing area at Intel, the machinery used is worth billions in total, and it has to be upgraded frequently to stay competitive.

The simple fact is that you need a large scale of production to make it viable. It's the only way to justify the amount of R&D. Hardware manufacturers in my experience tend to be a select few big multinationals, it's not an area populated by many smaller companies.

How exactly would an enterprising individual go about setting up a company that manufacturers computer hardware (even if it's just one component) in a small country like Ireland and be competitive?

djpbarry

C14N wrote: »

Is indigenous manufacture of computer hardware feasible? I don't really know much about it but I would reason that it's very expensive and requires a lot of capital to just get started.

On the one hand, yes, you are correct, Intel's operation for example is colossal. But, the sheer scale of their production is also a major weakness - they can't easily adapt to different technologies once they lock into a process, so there is definitely room there for the competition. Also, bear in mind that, for the most part, Intel are targeting a specific market - desktop and laptop computers. Semiconductors are used in a whole range of other products these days. For example, Andor in Belfast, originally a Queens campus start-up, is now a world-leading manufacturer of scientific cameras:

http://www.andor.com/about.aspx

And there is quite a lot of private funding available in Ireland - a clever design may well attract the interest of the likes of Google, who are currently taking their first steps into hardware development. Or maybe Intel would be prepared to invest in something they can't readily do themselves?

golfwallah

antoobrien wrote: »

It's real enough, HP (among others) have a product: http://www8.hp.com/uk/en/products/3d-printers/index.html

Wow! Who would have thunk it?

Apols Corkboy ...... Youtube link looks like something out of Startrek - especially the bit about scanning a solid object with moving parts, that produces a usable replica ...... just how this can work is amazing and I still find it hard to believe.

There's more on Wikipedia about 3D Printing.

Would love to hear from someone who has experience of this stuff and how it could be used to support manufacturing here.

Cardinal Richelieu

golfwallah wrote: »

Wow! Who would have thunk it?

Apols Corkboy ...... Youtube link looks like something out of Startrek - especially the bit about scanning a solid object with moving parts, that produces a usable replica ...... just how this can work is amazing and I still find it hard to believe.

There's more on Wikipedia about 3D Printing.

Would love to hear from someone who has experience of this stuff and how it could be used to support manufacturing here.

Its cutting edge stuff, Radio Nederlands had a piece on it earlier this year asking why it wasn't mainstream yet.

http://www.rnw.nl/english/article/3d-printing-just-around-corner

Probably more suited to a bespoke industry, so if you want a specific item such as a hearing aid, personalised phone cover it can be programmed and hey presto you have your item. In theory anyone can pretty much operate the printer using preset designs or write your own.

Radio Nederlands-

Pricey printers
Right now, if you want to have something printed in 3D, you can have it made and delivered by a professional company like Shapeways or ProtonSpace. It’s also possible to buy your own home printer, but they’re still pretty pricey; the HP 3D printers start at € 13,000.

For DIYers, there will soon be another solution: the Ultimaker kit – not yet on the market – will allow you to assemble your own 3D printer. At € 1200 it might not be cheap, but it’s a lot more accessible for the average enthusiast.

University of Glasgow have already conducted research into its viability to produce medication.

http://www.techdaily.eu/articles/science/3d-printers-could-be-used-for-creating-pills-256.html

More likely you will pop into your chemists in 20 years time and they can print your medication as needed rather than holding stock. It could actually damage large manufacturers because now anyone who can afford a printer now has an amazing manufacture capability sitting in their living room.

C14N

golfwallah wrote: »

Wow! Who would have thunk it?

Apols Corkboy ...... Youtube link looks like something out of Startrek - especially the bit about scanning a solid object with moving parts, that produces a usable replica ...... just how this can work is amazing and I still find it hard to believe.

There's more on Wikipedia about 3D Printing.

Would love to hear from someone who has experience of this stuff and how it could be used to support manufacturing here.

I know they're used at the moment for making replicas of things. So lets say you were making a new phone, you could "print" an exact model so you would know how big it is and see the shape and stuff. They're mighty expensive still though, only companies with decent R&D budgets are investing in them thus far.

sunshinediver

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

Maybe this is a topic for another thread
but what effect will 3-D printing on manufacturing in Ireland and Europe.
for job creation and larg-scale manufacturing in Ireland
Do these machines off-set the cheap labour costs for many products?

See this short demo here on youtube for what I am on about (i.e. 3-D printing)
If anyone is aware of another thread somewhere on Boards.ie please direct me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aghzpO_UZE

That's been around for about 6 years, while impressive it typically only prints one thing and is a lot more expensive and time consuming than traditional moulding methods.

As a poster above said, 2 key things that need to be addressed in Ireland to encourage entrepreneurship are some sort of welfare scheme for entrepreneurs if their venture fails and secondly a large change in bankruptcy legislation. 2-3 years is sufficient, not 12.

vinnyme

golfwallah wrote: »

Wow! Who would have thunk it?

Apols Corkboy ...... Youtube link looks like something out of Startrek - especially the bit about scanning a solid object with moving parts, that produces a usable replica ...... just how this can work is amazing and I still find it hard to believe.

There's more on Wikipedia about 3D Printing.

Would love to hear from someone who has experience of this stuff and how it could be used to support manufacturing here.

Well we have what could be described as the Rolls of 3D printing in house (An Objet 260V - we print stuff commercially just so you know) - and to be honest we're seeing all kinds of different work form it. Form toolmakers wanting to proof a concept to architectural modelling and character development for games, we're seeing a lot of work coming our way. The machine is very pricey but the accuracy and choice of polymers is huge. The HP stuff is all FDM and not really quite up to scratch.

The biggest challenge isn't so much the printing but it's ensuring people have a good grasp of 3D modelling tools. Sketchup and Blender offer STL export but the learning curve on Blender is quite steep while the modelling in sketchup is quite poor. I think an easy to use, parametric open source 3d modelling platform is what is required right now....

Scofflaw

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

Maybe this is a topic for another thread
but what effect will 3-D printing on manufacturing in Ireland and Europe.
for job creation and larg-scale manufacturing in Ireland
Do these machines off-set the cheap labour costs for many products?

See this short demo here on youtube for what I am on about (i.e. 3-D printing)
If anyone is aware of another thread somewhere on Boards.ie please direct me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aghzpO_UZE

They'll certainly have an impact in Ireland, I think - we have a surprising amount of medical prosthetics manufacturing here:

Medical Device Sector in Ireland

Ireland has been extremely successful in developing an internationally renowned centre for medical technology, with over 250 companies currently developing and manufacturing medical devices. These companies employ approx 26,000 people and export medical products amounting to approximately €6 billion per annum, which represent 9% of Ireland’s total exports. A recent Government survey has shown that 80% of the companies in the sector are “innovation active.” Despite the current economic climate the Irish Medtech sector continued to do well in 2010. IBEC's most recent sector sentiment and investment survey showed that confidence in the future is high and two thirds of medical technology companies expect turnover to increase in 2012.

Fifteen of the world’s top 20 medical technologies (devices and diagnostics) companies are located in Ireland, including Abbott, Hospira, Medtronic, J&J, Baxter, Boston Scientific and Stryker.

I would suspect that prosthetics is exactly the kind of manufacturing sector that will be hit by 3D printing, because (from the point of view of the patient) you're ideally looking at personalised devices, which means manufacturing runs of one.

cordially,
Scofflaw

vinnyme

Scofflaw,

Your absolutely right, especially for bone graft prosthetics like hip or cranial reconstruction, SLS of titanium and ceramics is already happening because the tolerances are directly affected by the amount of bone taken out, so you're literally reverse engineering the bone by using MRI data. The reality though is this kind of work is very niche. Most prosthetic limbs are sawn off straight and posted onto the healthy bone. These prosthetics are mass produced from Titanium billets which are far more reliable than sintered material which still contains trace amounts of polymer and air bubbles trapped during the sintering.

As far as exo-prosthetics are concerned, there is no one really in Ireland dealing with that. It's an American market (Diabetes epidemic coupled with War wounds = profitable business!) and they are already using rapid prototyping for even tooling for harder plastics, the turn around on an SLA tool can be literally a couple of hours. They usually iterate the model until the patient is happy with the shape/comfort.

I'd see this as a casting option too, especially where pinning the bone is involved - you could create a 3D printed drilling guide in the hospital and then create a cast to support the pins.

Cheerful Spring

The problem with manufacturing is the low wage end companies no longer find Ireland, all that attractive. The Dell companies of this world have found other places around the world, were they can pay people less. So its highly unlikely companies like this will invest here? Most of the unemployed likely have never worked in the high wage manufacturing industry, so how are they to get work here without having the skills, education and training. My view would be to have a training policy. The unemployment would be sent to companies for training, with no pay, just expenses paid like travel and food. Each month they go to a different company. Can you imagine after a period of time how this would benefit our economy?

vinnyme

Having read over some of the previous posts, here are my 2 cents worth regarding job creation/manufacturing in Ireland. I'd like to add before that that I work in a consultancy supporting manufacturing in Ireland so I'm pretty much at the coal face of it everyday.

1 - training (or lack thereof)
Training is a massive issue. The problem is around how the education system is skewed towards an academic qualification even for those who do not want one. Yes - there's Fas apprenticeships but I've always felt like they are looked at by most people as courses for "people who are good with their hands". France for example offer like a BEng equivalent called BT (Brevet Technique) which is highly regarded amongst employers which can be added onto their apprenticeship and follows through their apprenticeship (so say they start the apprenticeship at 16 - at 21/22 they will get a BEng equivalent with their apprenticeship). I know it sounds like block release stuff but it really works. The academic skills are followed through all the way and usually a company or group of companies step in and sponsor the apprentices.

Where I'm getting at is that the companies chosen for sponsorship provide training for specific roles. Say you did your qualification in metal pressing. The company that sponsors you of and which interests you most specialises in Metrology. You then have a major in pressed metal and a speciality in pressed metal metrology and a piece of paper to prove it. There are a lot of jobs in the manufacturing industry (toolmakers for one) that are suffering from a lack of apprentices. Apprentices aren't interested in the local guy - they wanna work for the big boys. I say screw that - get them in a contract that binds them to the company for x amount of years.

Point in this: get better trained apprentices by creating a real value training protocol. You don't just have an apprenticeship - you have a BEng with a Technical Degree which is highly regarded. To do that, you also have to shake up the education system by which these apprentices are to train. To me, that means:
- Sticking the boot into IT lecturers. If these guys are to receive the best training possible, give them all the opportunities. That means getting lecturers to commit to longer workshop hours and a longer working week. That means forcing IT lecturers to publish papers related to their disciplines - something they are not under pressure to do as they are content in doing sweet **** all. That means retraining lecturers during summer time in new advances in technology and making teaching an open and reactive way of engaging students. That means fighting your corner at meetings to gette latest technology that will give your students an edge.
- Encouraging Open Source learning (MIT curriculum is free and online)
- Get into bed with Software companies (Autodesk, Dassault) and hardware companies(Netstal, Huusky, DeMag) to promote the machinery from an early stage. You never know, these guys might buy your gear if they are successful.

I'll write up my next 3 points later (yawn)

maninasia

Welease wrote: »

I think most people will agree that most elements need to be somewhat in place for such a colossal ramp in hardware manufacturing to take place in such a short space, especially if you are going to manu. new indigenous designs and not just have a price war with India/China to manufacture multinational designs.

Article wise, maybe it's me but it was a bit disappointing that it stated master plan, but then no mention what that actual plan was.. Just that we could.. possibly.. maybe :cool:

Watch this space i guess

It's about people being willing to jump out of their secure but restrained jobs in multinationals and having the initiative and ambition to strike forward into the unknown themselves. I think it's a cultural thing more than anything. This can of course can be helped along with the right incentives and the willingness of investors to make riskier but more lucrative bets.

In this sense the relative lack of downsizing among multinationals has actually hampered indigineous growth, such as happened following the failure of Digital in Galway decades ago. Maybe if Boston Scientific was to collapse you could have a real explosion of new businesses!

In some Asian countries the culture is very much about being your own boss, due to lack of good benefits and working conditions and the veneration that bosses are held in, being your own boss is a pretty good thing to go for!


It's my impression that a lot of start-ups in Ireland are dominated by academics who hold onto their day job, they bring the technology to fruition and then sell out to multinationals, who then transfer the IP and core technology overseas. The academics keep their day job and get a big pay day, they are happy with that.

The above discussions also highlight the usual idea in Ireland that you invent the product or make the product and it kind of sells itself. It doesn't work like that in the real world. Sales and marketing skills and understanding of global channels are pretty poor , one of the reasons again being that the multinationals mainly manufacture products in Ireland rather than focus on sales and business development. Yes there are sales offices sometimes, but not always, often it seems to be customer support back-office type functions.

vinnyme

Looking at the point above - yes, I think you're right, there shouldn't be a price war between ireland and Asian countries. We just can't compete on that. What we can compete on is design, quality, lean manufacturing skills, our geographic position and our people.

We also need to bring back "big industry" but in a more collaborative fashion. I feel there is a culture of "dont steal my marbles" in ireland which is prohibiting large companies from setting up here. Take the car industry - thats big industry right? Ireland would be able to manage building a car if a manufacturing consortium, lead by a manufacturing entity thats familiar with big industry, would steer and allocate different parts of the job to different companies.

We could hire French/German/UK/US consultants that have better large industry knowledge than us - lets poach some and bring them over here, HYUNDAI style. All we'd need is to find a car manufacturer that would be willing to set up over here. Not too big, not too small, maybe someone like Tesla?

I visited the Audi factory in Ingolstadt and i was shocked to see how many suppliers they have. The industrial estate where the suppliers are is nearly 2/3 bigger than the Audi factory. Audi just put everything together and press the metal for the body and do the painting. So you have hundreds of suppliers, sometimes doing the same thing, working collaboratively on a larger project. Distance isn't a thing either - at Audi the motors are made in the Czech republic and shipped overnight to Ingolstadt to be assembled the next day. I takes roughly 7 hours to go from Donegal to Cork - I see everything converging to Cork (cos of the port) and then shipping out...

djpbarry

vinnyme wrote: »

Take the car industry - thats big industry right? Ireland would be able to manage building a car if a manufacturing consortium, lead by a manufacturing entity thats familiar with big industry, would steer and allocate different parts of the job to different companies.

There is absolutely no point in Ireland trying to compete with the likes of Germany, the UK, Japan and the US on the automotive front.

What's the point in reinventing the wheel (no pun intended)?

vinnyme

The point is there is no "Big" Industry - I simply took the automotive industry as an example. It could be consumer goods or anything - just bringing back industry and selling ireland as a consortium of manufacturers that work together was the point.

bbam

But the whole push in the thread is to dream up something that we could plough loads of money into so we have created the environment where a large industury grows.... lots of if's, but's and maybe's..

the truth is we are sitting on two major industries at the moment which are completly underdeveloped and essentially ignored...

Tourism;
We have lakes and rivers for fishing, dis-used rail track for cycling, the west cost is second to none.. Heritage and folkloire round every hill and corner, but all these need some developing and marketing, a simple example is that there is still little to do here when it rains.. tourists come to spend money to enjoy themselves, thats half the battle, they expect to spend money!

Wind Power:
off-shore or on-shore. there is an industury to be developed, not just sign over liscences.. an actual industury manufacturing developing turbines and producing green power for consumption and export.


No need to re-invent the wheel... just change the tyre on the current wheel and away we go... attracting another Intel or HP is becoming more and more diffocult.

djpbarry

vinnyme wrote: »

The point is there is no "Big" Industry - I simply took the automotive industry as an example.

Ok, but the problem there is that Ireland has never really had any kind of heavy industry. That’s not to say that some might develop in the future (Ireland’s particularly well-positioned geographically to develop a renewable energy technologies industry), but attempting to imitate and out-compete established industries in other major economies is unlikely to be successful.

Ireland has a lot of experience and expertise in the food industry, in particular, and it makes sense to exploit this as fully as possible. In recent decades, expertise have also been acquired in software development and high-end manufacturing, which will hopefully stand to the country in the decades to come.

vinnyme

djpbarry wrote: »

Ok, but the problem there is that Ireland has never really had any kind of heavy industry. That’s not to say that some might develop in the future (Ireland’s particularly well-positioned geographically to develop a renewable energy technologies industry), but attempting to imitate and out-compete established industries in other major economies is unlikely to be successful.

Ireland has a lot of experience and expertise in the food industry, in particular, and it makes sense to exploit this as fully as possible. In recent decades, expertise have also been acquired in software development and high-end manufacturing, which will hopefully stand to the country in the decades to come.

I completely agree with the high end stuff - we're actually really good at it. But to create jobs, we need to get big industry back - there's only so many people qualified for the high end stuff. In the meantime, as in now, you need to be able to employ all the low skilled people - they are the ones in real trouble. So how about an initiative to develop renewables? Should there be an Irish, manufacturing led platform looking at how we can scale our current knowledge and turn it into a worldwide player (Like Siemens) but using the technologies we are good at developing (Tidal wave power, estuary turbines etc) instead? The composites industry is quite small here but it is easily scalable and is a very hands on method of manufacturing.

As far as the tourism trade is concerned - I don't think you can play on that. Portugal and Spain have a massive tourism sector but it's not pulling the countries out of recession.

djpbarry

vinnyme wrote: »

I completely agree with the high end stuff - we're actually really good at it. But to create jobs, we need to get big industry back - there's only so many people qualified for the high end stuff. In the meantime, as in now, you need to be able to employ all the low skilled people - they are the ones in real trouble.

Well, first of all, the Googles of this world require far more than just programmers and computer scientists – check out the array of positions advertised on their jobs pages.

Secondly, jobs create jobs. Filling high-skilled positions creates a demand for services within the local/national economy, creating job vacancies that are more likely to be filled by lower-skilled workers.

The problem in Ireland at the moment is that there is great big mismatch between employment opportunities and the general skill-set of the unemployed. Consequently, numerous high-skilled positions are not being filled and this represents a significant barrier to growth. Obviously Ireland needs to focus more on developing indigenous industry, but that’s a longer term goal.

vinnyme wrote: »

As far as the tourism trade is concerned - I don't think you can play on that. Portugal and Spain have a massive tourism sector but it's not pulling the countries out of recession.

I wouldn’t expect tourism alone to fuel Ireland’s economic growth, but it shouldn’t be written off. Ireland has been incredibly successful in marketing itself abroad. It’s quite remarkable that a small island off the coast of Europe should be so well known throughout the world (a Japanese colleague of mine is planning on travelling to Ireland for his honeymoon). It would be foolish not to capitalise on this to the fullest extent possible.

vinnyme

djpbarry wrote: »

Secondly, jobs create jobs. Filling high-skilled positions creates a demand for services within the local/national economy, creating job vacancies that are more likely to be filled by lower-skilled workers.

Do you mean like in the construction industry? Or retail for that matter? That didn't work out so well last time. The parallel between high skilled jobs and low skilled labor sometimes cracks me up. Getting low skilled labor employed means getting them into jobs that are bubble-proof, stable and indigenous. Clean-tech is going to be around for a good while - we're not switching to deuterium power plants in the near future. We can compete with the giants on theis one - some of our indigenous technology in teh Clean tech sector is amazing and miles ahead of other larger companies but we're losing out on contracts because of productivity issues.

Gurgle

djpbarry wrote: »

There is absolutely no point in Ireland trying to compete with the likes of Germany, the UK, Japan and the US on the automotive front.

The big manufacturers seem to be turning more towards outsourcing of parts in recent years.

I agree there would be no point in setting up a new brand to try and grab some market share, but I expect there's more room for specialist companies to supply subsystems.

Automotive grade batteries for example, there's a market that is guaranteed to take off in the next decade. Who's making them now?

Tea drinker

Gurgle wrote: »

I agree there would be no point in setting up a new brand to try and grab some market share, but I expect there's more room for specialist companies to supply subsystems.

Well didn't that company that made wiring looms close a few years back? Ford and the others long since gone. I think we are too expensive and industry will wind down rather than pick up here.
We need NAMA to make available a few of those empty warehouses lying empty for entrerenaurs (not property developers) to brainstorm and build ideas in.
It's further up the value chain we need to be - I think.

djpbarry

vinnyme wrote: »

Do you mean like in the construction industry? Or retail for that matter? That didn't work out so well last time.

Retail? To an extent. Construction? Not so much – I wouldn’t call construction a service, although there’s nothing wrong with having a functional construction industry.

vinnyme wrote: »

Getting low skilled labor employed means getting them into jobs that are bubble-proof, stable and indigenous.

What kind of jobs are we talking about here? Because, to me, “low-skilled” and “stable” are two concepts that are difficult to reconcile.

Tea drinker wrote: »

We need NAMA to make available a few of those empty warehouses lying empty for entrerenaurs (not property developers) to brainstorm and build ideas in.
It's further up the value chain we need to be - I think.

Why on Earth would anyone need a warehouse in order to “brainstorm”?

Tea drinker

djpbarry wrote: »

Why on Earth would anyone need a warehouse in order to “brainstorm”?

Everyone needs an empty warehouse to brainstorm, there's probably enough for all of us.

But seriously think of it as a one stop shop for fostering business ideas. How many people have good ideas and no way to make a prototype, get advice on marketting and how to build a business? FAS and IDA hardly do this for domestic ideas today. It's about setting up a sandbox to get the kernel of an idea to a desirable marketable commodity. Sure there would be a lot of chaff in the wheat but all it needs is a few winners.
Even if the success rate is abysmal we still get a spinoff off fostering domestic business minds, something we continually slate as lacking here?
And why a warehouse? They are waay cheaper than office buildings and are in plentiful supply, often in industrial estates which would have raw materials etc. As there would be a need for an engineering workshop for prototyping an office building is not best suited. I think we are smart enough people to have some great ideas out there just waiting to be nourished. Look at how the likes of google work on these ideas, giving people time to brainstorm on how theway they can really change the way they work. It's not a static slow enviornment it builds an impetus to get things done.

Tht's what I think a jobs initiative looks like.

maninasia

It's a nice dream, but the car industry is already extremely competitive. You'd have to have a niche in something beyond the current generation, as you mentioned Tesla. But it would have a high chance of becoming the Delorean's replacement in Back to the Future 4.

You are right aswell that the car industry creates massive amounts of downstream jobs and industry and services, which is why it was mistake for the UK in particular to turn away from heavy manufacturing. We have never been a heavy manufacturing base in Ireland, excepting Northern Ireland. We just don't have the capital to compete in that kind of industry. We could try to attract more car part suppliers to manufacture here, but why would they do that? The industry is located in Central Europe with great transport, skills and cost base, we are on the periphery with crap transport, few skills in that area and a high cost base.

Ireland can do light manufacturing well. It seems customised manufacturing could be a real growth area. Pharma, IT, high tech, we've got them all in Ireland. It will be good to build on those strengths. Real areas of opportunity exist in upgrading the local agricultural and food processing industry. Also bringing existing stodgy brands into the world of fashion and luxury and to promote them into emerging markets in Asia and the Middle East and step away from the hokey olde Irish element. That market will remain but there is no growth there. Ireland needs to face East more to catch bigger growth opportunities.

Waterford crystal went bankrupt. Swavorski is bigger than ever. There's a lesson there.

maninasia

Gurgle wrote: »

The big manufacturers seem to be turning more towards outsourcing of parts in recent years.

I agree there would be no point in setting up a new brand to try and grab some market share, but I expect there's more room for specialist companies to supply subsystems.

Automotive grade batteries for example, there's a market that is guaranteed to take off in the next decade. Who's making them now?

China and the US, even if the R&D is in the West China will probably be the manufacturing base for this type of product, they already have the infrastructure and know-how and huge existing industry.

maninasia

vinnyme wrote: »

Do you mean like in the construction industry? Or retail for that matter? That didn't work out so well last time. The parallel between high skilled jobs and low skilled labor sometimes cracks me up. Getting low skilled labor employed means getting them into jobs that are bubble-proof, stable and indigenous. Clean-tech is going to be around for a good while - we're not switching to deuterium power plants in the near future. We can compete with the giants on theis one - some of our indigenous technology in teh Clean tech sector is amazing and miles ahead of other larger companies but we're losing out on contracts because of productivity issues.

I'm intrigued. I've heard Ireland is 'really good at' clean-tech and renewable energy industry. In fact what exactly is 'clean tech'?
What are the examples?

We have 'lots of potential'. So where is it exactly?

Didn't we have a company called Airtricity which built itself up and then they sold themselves off to a multinational?
How many wind turbines do we produce in Ireland?
Can we make money off all these renewable resources without increasing our internal electricity costs significantly?

djpbarry

Tea drinker wrote: »

But seriously think of it as a one stop shop for fostering business ideas. How many people have good ideas and no way to make a prototype, get advice on marketting and how to build a business? FAS and IDA hardly do this for domestic ideas today. It's about setting up a sandbox to get the kernel of an idea to a desirable marketable commodity. Sure there would be a lot of chaff in the wheat but all it needs is a few winners.

Well, let me put it like this...

An entrepreneur who needs the state to supply them with a premises in which they can thrash out ideas is probably not going to be a terribly successful entrepreneur. People who need to be thrown together in a room in order to network probably don’t have the necessary proactive disposition to start their own business.

vinnyme

maninasia wrote: »

I'm intrigued. I've heard Ireland is 'really good at' clean-tech and renewable energy industry. In fact what exactly is 'clean tech'?
What are the examples?

We have 'lots of potential'. So where is it exactly?

Didn't we have a company called Airtricity which built itself up and then they sold themselves off to a multinational?
How many wind turbines do we produce in Ireland?
Can we make money off all these renewable resources without increasing our internal electricity costs significantly?

Well the two that spring to mind are wavebob and openhydro. Have a google. The potential, as it has been discussed in a roundabout way beforehand, is that it is bulky, labor intensive work. Airtricity as far as I can remember were onlyo a reseller. We make turbines in Ireland but they are quite small. The turbine isn't the challenge - its the blades. We could theoretically throw a load of money at tidal/wave power but the infrastructure costs are pretty high. The good thing about tidal is the currents never really fluctuate, which was a major problem in wind farms.

Agent Weebley

Platitudes from Richard Bruton about determination and creating a powerful engine cannot be taken seriously, when the backdrop to his speech is austerity, which is, in actuality, monetary septic shock. He should aspire to quit, taking the rest of the parasites with him, so we indigenous people*** can be free to solve the "government problem" on our own. Bruton has no "Master Plan." All government wants to do is to continue the parasitic relationship, while touting it as a symbiotic relationship. They do this by endless mindless platitudes about solving problems they created in the first place!

If governments had not thrown up trade barriers in the first place, then there would be no need for a trading block, such as the Common Market . . . I mean the European Community . . . I mean the European Union. 200 years ago, everyone traded happily, until special interest groups that could not compete under free trade were able force a barrier to be erected, so their stuff now had a captive market. Ever read any Bastiat?

Sure, high tech sounds sexy, but Quantum Computing, Qubits, and Human Turing Machines are poised to turn the computer industry on its ear.

Low tech has low barriers to entry. Take Stirling Engines and attached generators, pumps or tranny gearboxes as a prime example of almost free energy that can be mobilised for manufacture rather quickly. All that is missing is the means of trade, which is money.

Imagine: a Turing Machine pops out an answer to the current woes: use Game Theory to understand where to go from here.

I apologise if you feel I did not add to the conversation here, but talk is definitely cheap, and something must be done quite quickly. Game Theory demands that all parties are aware of the Great Game that is being played. We cannot continue, unless the Austerity Game is not fully explained.

Could the Mod please open the recently closed We Don't Know What Austerity Is thread? That thread got onto twisted tracks. Give me 7 days to get it steamin' and a roliin' . . .

***indigenous includes 80 million diaspora

djpbarry

Agent Weebley wrote: »

200 years ago, everyone traded happily...

I read your post up to this point, after which it was nigh on impossible to take you seriously.

Agent Weebley

You're not giving me much to go on, djpbarry . . . did you take issue in what I said, the way I said it, or . . . did you like, laugh at my premise or something? I am a pretty serious guy, but life's too short to not dispense with the doom and gloom by making the Rx a little less wooden.

I guess you could say I am a student of the spoonful of sugar makes the medicine go down school?

Even though you may be thinking I may be some sort of Mr. Potato Head, I promise to pop on on my serious face as best I can . . . if you open up that thread again. I could easily bring the subject back on track if someone tried to throw a chain under the wheels, or change the points, or, heaven forbid, just try to stoke me by being a doubting Thomas The Tank Engine for laying down a parallel train of thought . . . a scenic route with signposts indicating how the "Powers That Be" like to label things to add credence or legitimise nonsensical concepts, such as Anthropomorphic Global Warming Climate Change, or Too Big To Fail, or Quantitative Easing, or Austerity, but to name a few.

I happen to be a trained home economist, so I default to adding a little sugar to bring a little HO HO HO into the mix.

antoobrien

Agent Weebley wrote: »

I happen to be a trained home economist

The you'll know that the "trade" you were referring to 200 years ago was actually colonialism/imperialism and not anything close to modern trade.

southsiderosie

MOD NOTE:

Agent Weebley wrote: »

Could the Mod please open the recently closed We Don't Know What Austerity Is thread? That thread got onto twisted tracks. Give me 7 days to get it steamin' and a roliin' . . .

No.

Agent Weebley wrote: »

You're not giving me much to go on, djpbarry . . . did you take issue in what I said, the way I said it, or . . . did you like, laugh at my premise or something? I am a pretty serious guy, but life's too short to not dispense with the doom and gloom by making the Rx a little less wooden.

I guess you could say I am a student of the spoonful of sugar makes the medicine go down school?

Even though you may be thinking I may be some sort of Mr. Potato Head, I promise to pop on on my serious face as best I can . . . if you open up that thread again. I could easily bring the subject back on track if someone tried to throw a chain under the wheels, or change the points, or, heaven forbid, just try to stoke me by being a doubting Thomas The Tank Engine for laying down a parallel train of thought . . . a scenic route with signposts indicating how the "Powers That Be" like to label things to add credence or legitimise nonsensical concepts, such as Anthropomorphic Global Warming Climate Change, or Too big To Fail, or Quantitative Easing, or Austerity, but to name a few.

I happen to be a trained home economist, so I default to adding a little sugar to bring a little HO HO HO into the mix.

Erm, what?

1) djpbarry is a moderator, but not in this forum. So he can't open anything for you.

2) It is a site wide rule that moderation is not discussed on thread. Send a moderator a private message if you have a question or issue.

3) If you can 'easily' bring this conversation back on track, then I encourage you to do so. Derailing threads via silliness or obfuscation is not looked upon kindly in this forum.