US army records, 20th century

Qualitymark

Where would I go to find an individual's record? First World War.

Waitsian

Qualitymark wrote: »

Where would I go to find an individual's record? First World War.

I'm not sure about US army records but I found my grandmother's brother's army attestation papers on Ancestry. He was in the Canadian infantry. I also found details of his death. You could try that website.

M.

Coolnabacky1873

WWI records are at the National Archives and Records Administration in Washington DC (officers) and the National Personnel Records Center in St. Louis, Missouri (enlisted).

HOWEVER there was a fire in 1973 and 80% of army (there are various branches: marines, navy, air force, army [air force was not in existence in WWI]) files have been lost covering 1912-1960. Most of the losses cover WWI.

Do try Ancestry and Familysearch as NARA have partnered with them and their records are being digitized. A good source is the WWI draft registration cards on Ancestry. 98% of the male population of fighting age at the time had to fill one in. Their digitization has been very poor though on Ancestry and they are hard to read.

US military records is a bit of a weak spot for me as I don't have much need for them in my line of work but I'll try and answer any further questions if you have them.

Lots of reading here:
http://www.archives.gov/publications/prologue/2002/fall/military-records-overview.html
http://www.archives.gov/research/military/
http://www.archives.gov/research/order/order-vets-records.html#nprc

Qualitymark

Thanks, @Coolnabacky1873. Ancestry is dear to use here, though I think it's free in the US.

I've found my great-uncle Cecil Gifford in a home for disabled soldiers in 1930, but that's the only trace I could find of him. Records said he entered the US army in the medical corps. He sounds as if he was shell shocked; not knowing where he served, it's hard to say what may have happened to him.

Coolnabacky1873

If there is one country it won't be free in it's here It's a regular company and they have subscription packages depending on where you live and also a worldwide package.

Bigger libraries have institutional subscriptions so depending on where you live that might work.

Also, there are some nice folk on here that help people if you have the details of an exact record that you need and they have a sub.

RGM

Coolnabacky1873 wrote: »

Also, there are some nice folk on here that help people if you have the details of an exact record that you need and they have a sub.

You rang?

Not all those WWI registration cards are hard to read, by the way. My great-grandfather's card was key in establishing a link.

Qualitymark

This Cecil Gifford was the twin of Grace, who married Joe Plunkett a brief time before he was executed in 1916.

RGM

Qualitymark wrote: »

This Cecil Gifford was the twin of Grace, who married Joe Plunkett a brief time before he was executed in 1916.

Do you know where he was born and a rough date of birth?

EDIT: Oh, THAT Joe Plunkett.

Qualitymark

RGM wrote: »

Do you know where he was born and a rough date of birth?

Edward Cecil Gifford, born in Dublin March 4, 1888, twin of Grace, parents Frederick Gifford and Isabella (née Burton). Oh, I have him also on the boat Celtic in 1909, on the way to New York.

According to my notes, he seems to have joined the army in 1917 in the medical department as a corporal, and left for the reason "W.D. Ai" or W.D. Cei maybe, #27 (?), then re-enlisted as a private in 1921 in Co K, 29th Infantry, and left because of "reduction of army". Description was light brown hair, blue eyes, ruddy complexion, five foot eight and a half inches, religion Protestant. Admission to military hospital November 29, 1930, "Adm B.B." (?), and Read (readmission?) B.H. 9.3.31.

RGM

Well, I'm having a tough time finding records, but I did find this: http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=GI&GSfn=c&GSpartial=1&GSbyrel=all&GSdyrel=all&GSst=24&GScntry=4&GSob=n&GSsr=281&GRid=15393100&df=all&

I'd bet that's your man's grave.

Qualitymark

The date would be right. Well found.

Ahem, the 1932 would be right. The 1889 wouldn't be. 1888. But considering that the poor man was in a bad state, the 1889 may just have been a mistake.

Coolnabacky1873

Boards.ie genealogy forum - the gift that keeps on giving.

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/VHZC-CD1

Qualitymark

Coolnabacky1873 wrote: »

Boards.ie genealogy forum - the gift that keeps on giving.

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/VHZC-CD1

HTTP Status 500 -

type Exception report

message

description The server encountered an internal error () that prevented it from fulfilling this request.

exception

java.lang.NullPointerException
org.familysearch.[url]www.LogSessionIdFilter.doFilter(LogSessionIdFilter.java:39)[/url]
javax.servlet.FilterChain$doFilter.call(Unknown Source)
org.familysearch.[url]www.ETagFilter.doFilter(ETagFilter.groovy:39)[/url]
org.familysearch.[url]www.APICopyrightFilter.doFilter(APICopyrightFilter.java:78)[/url]
note The full stack trace of the root cause is available in the Apache Tomcat/6.0.18 logs.

Qualitymark

RGM wrote: »

Do you know where he was born and a rough date of birth?

EDIT: Oh, THAT Joe Plunkett.

Yeah, that's the lad.

RGM

The Kalamazoo, Michigan public library has "KAL. CO. RECORDS OF SOLDIERS...1914-19" that mention a Cecil E. Gifford. Not sure exactly what info is in those records, but worth contacting them. Not available online.

Qualitymark

Wow, thank you so much!

Qualitymark

Have emailed the Katz in Kalamazoo.

Ponster

Ancestry also has him travelling from Liverpool to New York in 1909


Name: Edward Cecil Gifford
Arrival Date: 3 May 1909
Birth Year: abt 1888
Birth Location: Ireland
Birth Location Other: dublin
Age: 21
Gender: Male
Ethnicity/Race­/Nationality: Irish
Port of Departure: Liverpool, England
Port of Arrival: New York, New York
Ship Name: Celtic


Father, Fred Gifford from 8 Temple Villas.

Ponster

Qualitymark wrote: »

According to my notes, he seems to have joined the army in 1917 in the medical department as a corporal,

I take it that you have the record from the U.S. National Homes for Disabled Volunteer Soldiers ?

The WWI forum guys are great at deciphering the military jargon.

P. Breathnach

Coolnabacky1873 wrote: »

Boards.ie genealogy forum - the gift that keeps on giving...

You make us sound like what is sometimes euphemistically called a "social disease".




[It might be an apt label.]

Qualitymark

Ponster wrote: »

Ancestry also has him travelling from Liverpool to New York in 1909


Name: Edward Cecil Gifford
Arrival Date: 3 May 1909
Birth Year: abt 1888
Birth Location: Ireland
Birth Location Other: dublin
Age: 21
Gender: Male
Ethnicity/Race­/Nationality: Irish
Port of Departure: Liverpool, England
Port of Arrival: New York, New York
Ship Name: Celtic


Father, Fred Gifford from 8 Temple Villas.

That's our Ces. I think his sister Kay may have been on the same boat, or maybe it was another. Cecil, Ernest, Gabriel and Kay all travelled over at various points.

RGM

http://data.wmgs.org/Veterans/FMPro?-db=Orders&-lay=VeteransOrders&-format=search.htm&-New

You can order Cecil Gifford's record from the Grand Rapids Soldiers' Home for $13.50 US. Says there are 21 pages?

Qualitymark

RGM wrote: »

http://data.wmgs.org/Veterans/FMPro?-db=Orders&-lay=VeteransOrders&-format=search.htm&-New

You can order Cecil Gifford's record from the Grand Rapids Soldiers' Home for $13.50 US. Says there are 21 pages?

21 pages? I never saw that looking at the site before! Will do that. Have done that! The records will take a couple of weeks, it seems, they'll be sent by post.

Ponster

Qualitymark wrote: »

That's our Ces. I think his sister Kay may have been on the same boat, or maybe it was another. Cecil, Ernest, Gabriel and Kay all travelled over at various points.

Ernest travelled with him. Gabriel (and his wife) didn't go over until 1915.

Qualitymark

Ponster wrote: »

Ernest travelled with him. Gabriel (and his wife) didn't go over until 1915.

Ah yes. Ernest (or as he's always called in the family, Frederick). Thanks.

Ponster

Qualitymark wrote: »

(or as he's always called in the family, Frederick)

Most likely because it's his name (I couldn't decipher it from the records but he gave his name as Frederick Ernest)

Qualitymark

Ponster wrote: »

Most likely because it's his name (I couldn't decipher it from the records but he gave his name as Frederick Ernest)

Some of the boys used their first name, some their middle name.

Another brother, Claude Frederick, was a member of the Canadian Expeditionary Force; I don't know how to find his records either.

Waitsian

Qualitymark wrote: »

Some of the boys used their first name, some their middle name.

Another brother, Claude Frederick, was a member of the Canadian Expeditionary Force; I don't know how to find his records either.

http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/cef/001042-119.01-e.php?id_nbr=412575

Ponster

Qualitymark wrote: »

Ah yes. Ernest (or as he's always called in the family, Frederick). Thanks.

He also pops up in 1917 as a truck driver in LA

Qualitymark

Ponster wrote: »

He also pops up in 1917 as a truck driver in LA

Really? Where's the reference??

Qualitymark

mod9maple wrote: »

http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/cef/001042-119.01-e.php?id_nbr=412575

Wow! Well found! How can one tell how much is in the box, how many pages, etc?

Waitsian

Qualitymark wrote: »

Wow! Well found! How can one tell how much is in the box, how many pages, etc?

No problem, glad to help.

"However, most Canadian Expeditionary Force service files contain an average of 25 to 75 pages, with those for personnel who were drafted or enlisted later in the war typically having smaller files."

Click on the link at the top of the page for details of full service file: 'How to consult a file on-site or order a copy of the complete file'

Waitsian

Btw I notice there are 2 addresses for next of kin, one in Dublin (crossed out) and another in Essex, England! Nice.

Qualitymark

mod9maple wrote: »

Btw I notice there are 2 addresses for next of kin, one in Dublin (crossed out) and another in Essex, England! Nice.

That'll be his mother in Ireland and his wife in England.

I clicked on that "how to consult a file" link, but it was just general instructions.

What do those 25 to 75 pages tend to involve?

Correction - it's 16 Dawson Street, Dublin, so that must have been his father's business. His father would be incapacitated with a stroke at some stage during that year; I'd thought the family business was in South Frederick Street, but maybe they'd moved offices.

Incidentally, my great-aunts used to say "the boys" were in "the army" (whereas they (girls) were in the Citizen Army or affiliated to the Volunteers). But of the other brothers, I've found no sign of Liebert (spelled various ways including Lebirt), Frederick or Gabriel being in the British, US or Canadian armies. Gerald Vere had died as a result of a rugby scrum collapsing some years earlier.

shanew

Qualitymark wrote: »

......
it's 16 Dawson Street, Dublin, so that must have been his father's business. His father would be incapacitated with a stroke at some stage during that year; I'd thought the family business was in South Frederick Street, but maybe they'd moved offices.
....

Thom's 1914 - 16 Dawson street :

J.C. Mathieson, milliner, costumer
F. Gifford & Son, solrs. and com. for oaths
Fredk. Gifford, solr. and com. for oaths - res. 8 Temple villas, Palmerston Rd., Rathmines
Claude F. Gifford, solr. and com. for oaths for Ireland and British Columbia
- res. Kilgour, Dartry Rd., Rathmines
City & County Private finances Co. - J. Callely sec.
S.D. Lambert, B.A. solr. - res. Hillsdene, Portmarnock

S.

Ponster

Qualitymark wrote: »

Really? Where's the reference??

Here you go. Most likely him (IMO) as place of birth is Dublin and the year of arrival and ship taken match up.

http://imgur.com/I4MU7


By the way, Ancestry has a record of a Robert W. Gifford, born Ireland, fighting in the US Civil War. You never know, he may be one of your lot

Ponster

Qualitymark wrote: »

I've found no sign of Liebert (spelled various ways including Lebirt),

Nope. I can't find him in any army records.

Is he the same Liebert who dies in Montréal in 1934 ?

Qualitymark

Ponster wrote: »

Nope. I can't find him in any army records.

Is he the same Liebert who dies in Montréal in 1934 ?

Yes, he is. I also found a reference to him aged 16 having run away to sea on some boat, but the internet ate the reference and I never found it again.

Qualitymark

[QUOTE=shanew;79728830
Claude F. Gifford, solr. and com. for oaths for Ireland and British Columbia
- res. Kilgour, Dartry Rd., Rathmines
City & County Private finances Co. - J. Callely sec.
[/QUOTE]

Interesting thing is that Claude is a solicitor in the Dublin records and a barrister in the Canadian. I have a vague memory of coming across him being qualified as a barrister in Canada, but the time scale...

Qualitymark

Someone has come back to me with an offer to send the US records on Cecil for €2 a page, and I've sent an email to the Canadian site to find out how to get Claude's records. We shall see.

Qualitymark

Ponster wrote: »

He also pops up in 1917 as a truck driver in LA

Was this a joke or are you serious? If serious, where's the record, please?

Oh, wait, I see you answered this already - sorry.

But what is this 'Declaration of Intention'? Is it an application for naturalisation, since he's rejecting foreign princes, potentates, etc?

RGM

Qualitymark wrote: »

Was this a joke or are you serious? If serious, where's the record, please?

Oh, wait, I see you answered this already - sorry.

But what is this 'Declaration of Intention'? Is it an application for naturalisation, since he's rejecting foreign princes, potentates, etc?

"Prior to 1952, a two-step process was required before an immigrant could become a U.S. citizen. Filing a Declaration of Intention was the first step. Sometimes referred to as the "first papers," the Declaration of Intention could be filed anytime after the immigrant arrived. After 1862, those who were honorably discharged from the U.S. Army were excused from this first step in the naturalization process (added for the Navy & Marine Corps in 1894). In 1952, a Declaration of Intent was no longer required for anyone, although some immigrants filed them."

Qualitymark

Interesting. I've looked in a few places but found no further mention of Frederick Ernest Gifford.

The odd thing is that my notes have Claude and Liebert born in the same year, 1876 - Liebert on April 27 and Claude on January 8. Not sure where I got the date for Liebert - maybe from familysearch.org, which of course could have the date wrong. I should go in to the Ilac Centre and see if I can hunt out their birth certs and get this clear.

RGM

Qualitymark wrote: »

Interesting. I've looked in a few places but found no further mention of Frederick Ernest Gifford.

Ancestry has his WWI registration card from 1918.

Address is 808 S. San Pedro, LA, California. Nearest relative Isabella Gifford in Dublin. Having trouble making out his occupation, but his employer is given as Ottewall(sp?) Hampton in Inyo County.

Qualitymark

RGM wrote: »

Ancestry has his WWI registration card from 1918.

Address is 808 S. San Pedro, LA, California. Nearest relative Isabella Gifford in Dublin. Having trouble making out his occupation, but his employer is given as Ottewall(sp?) Hampton in Inyo County.

What do you mean by WWI registration card, please?

RGM

Qualitymark wrote: »

What do you mean by WWI registration card, please?

All males of a certain age had to register for the draft. According to Ancestry, 98 percent of American men aged 18-46 filled out a registration card. So it doesn't imply military service.

One of the first suggestions in this thread for finding Cecil was his registration card. Unfortunately the scans and transcriptions are not of the best quality and some cards are hard to find.

Qualitymark

Is there any way to find out if someone who filled in the registration did actually serve?

Incidentally, Inyo County in California, where he was working as a truck driver, is apparently a Native American reservation.

Ponster

RGM wrote: »

Ancestry has his WWI registration card from 1918.

Address is 808 S. San Pedro, LA, California. Nearest relative Isabella Gifford in Dublin. Having trouble making out his occupation, but his employer is given as Ottewall(sp?) Hampton in Inyo County.

That record has a different date of birth and different place of birth than the OP. You'd have to make sure that there wasn't another person with the same name, around the same age who was in fact born in NYC. Without going into it further I'd say that it isn't the same guy.



Place of Birth:New York;United States of America
Birth Date: 9 Feb 1889




He also appears in the 1920 and 1940 census

Name: Frederick E Gifford
Respondent: Yes
Age: 52
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1888
Gender: Male
Race: White
Birthplace: Irish Free State
Marital Status: Single
Relation to Head of House: Roomer
Home in 1940: San Francisco, San Francisco, California
View Map
Street: Cherry
House Number: 349
Inferred Residence in 1935: San Francisco, San Francisco, California
Residence in 1935: Same Place
Resident on farm in 1935: No
Citizenship: Naturalized
Sheet Number: 62B
Rent/home value:
Occupation: Elevator Operator




1920

Fred E Gifford

Age: 32
Birth Year: abt 1888
Birthplace: Ireland
Home in 1920: Oakland, Alameda, California
Race: White
Gender: Male
Immigration Year: 1900
Relation to Head of House: Lodger
Marital Status: Single
Father's Birthplace: Ireland
Mother's Birthplace: Ireland
Able to read: Yes
Able to Write: Yes

RGM

Ponster wrote: »

That record has a different date of birth and different place of birth than the OP. You'd have to make sure that there wasn't another person with the same name, around the same age who was in fact born in NYC. Without going into it further I'd say that it isn't the same guy.

I'm not sure what you're looking at, but the record I'm referring to is definitely the guy and there is no mention of NY. The record doesn't actually have a place of birth, but lists him as an alien.

It gives the same Dublin address for his mother Isabella, 8 Temple Villas, that was mentioned earlier in the thread.

I think you're confused.


The census records you posted are actually far more suspect, considering the DOB. The other records have him born 1880-1882, yours both say 1888 and have no other connection than the name and state.

RGM

Qualitymark wrote: »

Incidentally, Inyo County in California, where he was working as a truck driver, is apparently a Native American reservation.

There may be a reservation there, but I'm sure it is only a very small part of the county. Inyo County is about as big as a third of Ireland (all of Ireland).

Qualitymark wrote: »

Is there any way to find out if someone who filled in the registration did actually serve?

Not from the cards themselves.

Ponster

Yep. You're right. He was born in 22 Mar 1880. I still think that the census results are him though no matted about the dob being off. The weird thing is that the only other FEG around at the time is married to an Isabella Gifford (but not the same one it seems)