orange provocation

billybudd

alastair wrote: »

I didn't realise that nationalists and unionists were distinct racial groups! You learn something new every day. :rolleyes:

In the eyes of some unionists nationalists are not even human....and therein lies the problem.

Your being very passive agressive in this thread with your answers and refusal to see the blatant bigoty the OO file and rank have.

Noreen1

Bessiebee wrote: »

My mother told me that as a young girl growing up in the 40s/50s in East Donegal it was common place for catholic farmers to take over milking duties etc for their protestant neighbours on the 12th July so they could get dressed up to go marching in their suits, sashes and heaven forbid bowler hats :eek: and that such acts of tolerance and respect were recriprocated by protestant farmers when their catholic neighbours had their day out on the 15th August Would be great if we could all agree that there are different types of protestants, different types of catholics, different types of all different types of people living on this island without the need to bash and belittle the beliefs of one organisation just cause it doesn't conform to what we believe.

True.
But you're mostly preaching to the converted, here.

That message is one that needs to be given to the instigators of trouble in Northern Ireland.
People in the South already know that someone who happens to practice a different faith/have different political viewpoints, isn't automatically downright evil.

For some unfathomable (to me, at least) reason, some OO members in the North go to ridiculous lengths to antagonise and belittle their neighbours.
Not only that, they even go to the trouble of hiring buses to make sure they can behave like complete hate-filled, bigoted idiots.

Realistically, while these morons are allowed to be as offensive as they like, then, human nature being what it is, there will be a backlash.

For example, I see no reason why the Wicklow/Dublin/any Irish lodge of the OO shouldn't march in Dublin, if that's what they want to do.
I don't pretend to understand their allegiance to the crown - I can't understand why, for example, someone whose family have lived in Ireland for several generations would consider themselves British, rather than Irish, of British descent - but whatever floats their boat.
Equally, I have no issue with Protestant organisations being set up, to protect the Protestant faith. However, the blatant sectarianism in the rules of the OO make me sick!

Having said all of that - the thought of certain Northern lodges - the ones who cause trouble year after year - being allowed to march in the streets of Dublin makes my blood boil.
We neither need, nor want, that bigoted, hate-filled nonsense here.

I don't know how much time you've spent in Northern Ireland.
But you might want to reflect that different people will judge things by their own personal experience.
Therefore, if people have only experienced hate from the the only members of an organisation they have met - then they will naturally, view that organisation with animosity.
I have some very good neighbours who happen to be members of the OO.
Hence, I tend to keep am open mind.
However, I have also experienced bigotry from members of the OO in Northern Ireland - hence I sympathise with the people of Ardoyne, (and any other trouble spots in Northern Ireland) when certain lodges get up to the same antics, year after year.

The Orange Order needs to control these lodges. Until they do, then people will continue to resent their antics, and unfortunately, moderates will continue to feel misunderstood, and unwanted.

tl:dr:
If the Orange order want respect, they need to show respect, by curtailing the antics of the troublemakers in their midst, and negotiating a path that is acceptable to all of the people who live on this Island.

billybudd

Bessiebee wrote: »

My mother told me that as a young girl growing up in the 40s/50s in East Donegal it was common place for catholic farmers to take over milking duties etc for their protestant neighbours on the 12th July so they could get dressed up to go marching in their suits, sashes and heaven forbid bowler hats :eek: and that such acts of tolerance and respect were recriprocated by protestant farmers when their catholic neighbours had their day out on the 15th August Would be great if we could all agree that there are different types of protestants, different types of catholics, different types of all different types of people living on this island without the need to bash and belittle the beliefs of one organisation just cause it doesn't conform to what we believe.

What has the OO got to do with religion? what has the 12th of july to do with religion? do all protestants globaly celebrate this date? is it a religious day? no its a day that is celebrated for a brutal war that took place along time ago resulting in deaths of a lot of Irish people of both religions.

billybudd

Noreen1 wrote: »

True.
But you're mostly preaching to the converted, here.

That message is one that needs to be given to the instigators of trouble in Northern Ireland.
People in the South already know that someone who happens to practice a different faith/have different political viewpoints, isn't automatically downright evil.

For some unfathomable (to me, at least) reason, some OO members in the North go to ridiculous lengths to antagonise and belittle their neighbours.
Not only that, they even go to the trouble of hiring buses to make sure they can behave like complete hate-filled, bigoted idiots.

Realistically, while these morons are allowed to be as offensive as they like, then, human nature being what it is, there will be a backlash.

For example, I see no reason why the Wicklow/Dublin/any Irish lodge of the OO shouldn't march in Dublin, if that's what they want to do.
I don't pretend to understand their allegiance to the crown - I can't understand why, for example, someone whose family have lived in Ireland for several generations would consider themselves British, rather than Irish, of British descent - but whatever floats their boat.
Equally, I have no issue with Protestant organisations being set up, to protect the Protestant faith. However, the blatant sectarianism in the rules of the OO make me sick!

Having said all of that - the thought of certain Northern lodges - the ones who cause trouble year after year - being allowed to march in the streets of Dublin makes my blood boil.
We neither need, nor want, that bigoted, hate-filled nonsense here.

I don't know how much time you've spent in Northern Ireland.
But you might want to reflect that different people will judge things by their own personal experience.
Therefore, if people have only experienced hate from the the only members of an organisation they have met - then they will naturally, view that organisation with animosity.
I have some very good neighbours who happen to be members of the OO.
Hence, I tend to keep am open mind.
However, I have also experienced bigotry from members of the OO in Northern Ireland - hence I sympathise with the people of Ardoyne, (and any other trouble spots in Northern Ireland) when certain lodges get up to the same antics, year after year.

The Orange Order needs to control these lodges. Until they do, then people will continue to resent their antics, and unfortunately, moderates will continue to feel misunderstood, and unwanted.

tl:dr:
If the Orange order want respect, they need to show respect, by curtailing the antics of the troublemakers in their midst, and negotiating a path that is acceptable to all of the people who live on this Island.

Why should they be allowed to do this? why should loayalty to a foreign kingdom be allowed to be on show to an independent state? even without all the history between our two states why would this be something that is tolerated or allowed?

Border-Rat

Virgin Mary statue prepared for burning and a threat to a (Protestant) Sunday World reporter.

Happyman42

Bessiebee wrote: »

My mother told me that as a young girl growing up in the 40s/50s in East Donegal it was common place for catholic farmers to take over milking duties etc for their protestant neighbours on the 12th July so they could get dressed up to go marching in their suits, sashes and heaven forbid bowler hats :eek: and that such acts of tolerance and respect were recriprocated by protestant farmers when their catholic neighbours had their day out on the 15th August Would be great if we could all agree that there are different types of protestants, different types of catholics, different types of all different types of people living on this island without the need to bash and belittle the beliefs of one organisation just cause it doesn't conform to what we believe.

Noreen1 wrote: »

True.
But you're mostly preaching to the converted, here.

That message is one that needs to be given to the instigators of trouble in Northern Ireland.
People in the South already know that someone who happens to practice a different faith/have different political viewpoints, isn't automatically downright evil.

For some unfathomable (to me, at least) reason, some OO members in the North go to ridiculous lengths to antagonise and belittle their neighbours.
Not only that, they even go to the trouble of hiring buses to make sure they can behave like complete hate-filled, bigoted idiots.

Realistically, while these morons are allowed to be as offensive as they like, then, human nature being what it is, there will be a backlash.

For example, I see no reason why the Wicklow/Dublin/any Irish lodge of the OO shouldn't march in Dublin, if that's what they want to do.
I don't pretend to understand their allegiance to the crown - I can't understand why, for example, someone whose family have lived in Ireland for several generations would consider themselves British, rather than Irish, of British descent - but whatever floats their boat.
Equally, I have no issue with Protestant organisations being set up, to protect the Protestant faith. However, the blatant sectarianism in the rules of the OO make me sick!

Having said all of that - the thought of certain Northern lodges - the ones who cause trouble year after year - being allowed to march in the streets of Dublin makes my blood boil.
We neither need, nor want, that bigoted, hate-filled nonsense here.

I don't know how much time you've spent in Northern Ireland.
But you might want to reflect that different people will judge things by their own personal experience.
Therefore, if people have only experienced hate from the the only members of an organisation they have met - then they will naturally, view that organisation with animosity.
I have some very good neighbours who happen to be members of the OO.
Hence, I tend to keep am open mind.
However, I have also experienced bigotry from members of the OO in Northern Ireland - hence I sympathise with the people of Ardoyne, (and any other trouble spots in Northern Ireland) when certain lodges get up to the same antics, year after year.

The Orange Order needs to control these lodges. Until they do, then people will continue to resent their antics, and unfortunately, moderates will continue to feel misunderstood, and unwanted.

tl:dr:
If the Orange order want respect, they need to show respect, by curtailing the antics of the troublemakers in their midst, and negotiating a path that is acceptable to all of the people who live on this Island.

Fact is folks, I don't care what version of the imaginary man in the sky people wish to worship, what I do care about is the tolerance of institutional bigotry based on who you worship.
What governments need to be doing is prosecuting anybody with an organisational mandate to promote that bigotry, instead of giving into misguided political-correctness.
We are either secular states or we are not.
Britian can not claim to be a secular state when the crown heads up, protects and promotes one faith(CoE). Relinguishing that would be a start and would give the likes of the OO nowhere to hide. The banning of marching and parading bigotry here would help too, as we divest ourselves of the RC influence. Anybody who wants to stay in those organisations should then expect to face the full force of the law when you publically express bigotry.

Noreen1

billybudd wrote: »

Why should they be allowed to do this? why should loayalty to a foreign kingdom be allowed to be on show to an independent state? even without all the history between our two states why would this be something that is tolerated or allowed?

Because the Orange Order is a worldwide organisation - and one that does not cause the kind of bulls*** that we see in Northern Ireland year after year, anywhere in the World, except Northern Ireland, and Scotland.

Take a look at the US qualification criteria:
http://www.orangeusa.org/USA%20Qualifications.htm

Very different to the trash you read on their site in Northern Ireland.

I'd be a bit concerned about the American orders insistence on state schools, but, on reflection, it's no different to what secularists in this Country want.

The sectarian waffle we see here is not a Worldwide thing - and, if the 12th parade in Donegal is anything to go by - it's not an Irish thing, either.
By the way - my OO neighbours consider themselves Irish, and will happily condemn the wrongs done to the Irish people.

So, don't judge every member by the antics of the freakshow that is certain lodges in Northern Ireland.

Noreen1

Border-Rat wrote: »

Virgin Mary statue prepared for burning and a threat to a (Protestant) Sunday World reporter.

Nice clear picture there. Could be used for identification.

woodoo

alastair wrote: »

You've put the cart before the horse. They don't consider themselves not Irish because they're living in the UK - they're more than aware that nationalists in NI consider themselves Irish. NI is part of the UK - that much is obvious to all. Ulstermen consider themselves British rather than Irish - not because they're living in the UK, but because they share a common British heritage.

What exactly is a British heritage. Is it Scottish or English or Welsh or are they all three??

If its Scottish then why not say Scottish, if its English then say English. What is a British identity. Its bull s**t. They are Irish but they have allegiance to the UK that is all.

I have a Norwegian surname, my ancestors may have come here at the same time as the planters. I'm still Irish though. I don't even consider myself part Norwegian.

true

woodoo wrote: »

If its Scottish then why not say Scottish, if its English then say English. What is a British identity. Its bull s**t. They are Irish but they have allegiance to the UK that is all.

.People from the Canary islands are also Spanish ( although Morocco is closer ).

Sicilians are also Italian.

Nodin

true wrote: »

.People from the Canary islands are also Spanish ( although Morocco is closer ).

Sicilians are also Italian.

Again - whats your opinion of the scene described and shown in the OP, outside the church

Richard Hillman

The Orange Order got what they wanted out of the church incident. They used it to rile the nationalist/republican community up. It was also a moment to say to the nationalist/republican community that they can do what they want and have their sectarian marches where they want because they feel superior.

The nationalist/republican community got what they wanted as it was another opportunity to take part in their favourite pastimes, rioting and complaining. It gave them a great opportunity to tell everybody about how the world is against them and those big nasty protestants have it in for them.


Result: Win-Win

true

Nodin wrote: »

Again - whats your opinion of the scene described and shown in the OP, outside the church

as said earlier I do no condone it, but a loyalist band - one band - which stoped in the street at a catholic church to sing a beach boys copy song and to have a little march is not what Id do, not what I would go and watch. No extremely serious crime was committed and nobody was killed, and I would not tar all of the hundreds of thousands of people who enjoy the 12th with the actions of a dozen or so people in one incident.

There has been a lot worse happen.

billybudd

Noreen1 wrote: »

Because the Orange Order is a worldwide organisation - and one that does not cause the kind of bulls*** that we see in Northern Ireland year after year, anywhere in the World, except Northern Ireland, and Scotland.

Take a look at the US qualification criteria:
http://www.orangeusa.org/USA%20Qualifications.htm

Very different to the trash you read on their site in Northern Ireland.

I'd be a bit concerned about the American orders insistence on state schools, but, on reflection, it's no different to what secularists in this Country want.

The sectarian waffle we see here is not a Worldwide thing - and, if the 12th parade in Donegal is anything to go by - it's not an Irish thing, either.
By the way - my OO neighbours consider themselves Irish, and will happily condemn the wrongs done to the Irish people.

So, don't judge every member by the antics of the freakshow that is certain lodges in Northern Ireland.

I am sorry but william of orange is not symbol of the protestant religion, he is a symbol of war and in this case it is the battle of the boyne and from an Irish context that war was about being released from sectarian and etnic rule and to have rights to own land and have rights to hold office as a catholic and to one day self govern as an independent state.

Also you can be proud to be Irish and be protestant without the need to join and be part of an order that celebrates from its earliest onset sectarian and bigotry behaviour.

If it is a orange order lodge then the clue is in the name, orange=william of orange, a Dutch man who came to Ireland to preserve the right to treat Irish nationlists as second rate citizens with no rights.

I include RC & COI as Irish nationals btw.

Nodin

true wrote: »

as said earlier I do no condone it, .

O thats very big of you, not condoning it.

true wrote: »

but a loyalist band - one band - which stoped in the street at a catholic church to sing a beach boys copy song and to have a little march is not what Id do, not what I would go and watch.
.

Not that you'd belittle and trivialise the whole thing.

billybudd

Richard Hillman wrote: »

The Orange Order got what they wanted out of the church incident. They used it to rile the nationalist/republican community up. It was also a moment to say to the nationalist/republican community that they can do what they want and have their sectarian marches where they want because they feel superior.

The nationalist/republican community got what they wanted as it was another opportunity to take part in their favourite pastimes, rioting and complaining. It gave them a great opportunity to tell everybody about how the world is against them and those big nasty protestants have it in for them.


Result: Win-Win

Was there this sort of behaviour a few weeks ago when bunting was around ulster on display in celebration of the queens jubilee? did nationalists use it as an excuse to riot or moan? no and no.

Sometimes there is just cause and this is sometimes.

Fratton Fred

TommyPolack wrote: »

Going further it is one man game - Rothschild.
Coming back to the subject. I was answering question about who invaded who and what are Brits celebrating on the 12th.
Protestants invaded Catholic nation, they won and now in NI, during the celebration of the victory, Brits burn catholic nation’s flags.
Simple.- pure sactarianism

That's actually way off the mark tbh.

Galwayguy35

Fratton Fred wrote: »

That's actually way off the mark tbh.

Nope, sounds just about right to me.

alastair

Noreen1 wrote: »

Nationalists and Unionists are different ethnic groups

Away up the road with that nonsense.

alastair

billybudd wrote: »

In the eyes of some unionists nationalists are not even human....and therein lies the problem.

It's all so simple eh?

billybudd wrote: »

Your being very passive agressive in this thread with your answers and refusal to see the blatant bigoty the OO file and rank have.

I've no problem identifying the bigotry at play - I've said as much - but that's a far cry from racism - where both parties are from the same racial and ethnic group - the difference is purely religious and political.

alastair

Happyman42 wrote: »

Britian can not claim to be a secular state when the crown heads up, protects and promotes one faith(CoE). Relinguishing that would be a start and would give the likes of the OO nowhere to hide. The banning of marching and parading bigotry here would help too, as we divest ourselves of the RC influence. Anybody who wants to stay in those organisations should then expect to face the full force of the law when you publically express bigotry.

Bigotry isn't a crime. It certainly shouldn't be a crime in any secular state - and since when has the British monarch had any sway in the constitutional democracy that forms the UK state? She's defender of the faith in a couple of other pretty obviously secular states too - Canada being a case in point.

alastair

billybudd wrote: »

I am sorry but william of orange is not symbol of the protestant religion

Well actually... he is a pretty clear symbol of one part of British Protestantism.

Happyman42

alastair wrote: »

Bigotry isn't a crime.

It is when it incites hate.

It certainly shouldn't be a crime in any secular state - and since when has the British monarch had any sway in the constitutional democracy that forms the UK state? She's defender of the faith in a couple of other pretty obviously secular states too - Canada being a case in point.

Who said the monarch did?
The OO give their allegiance to the Monarch.

kevmol88

So a loyalist band stopped at a catholic church to sing the famine song and to have a little march. I wonder how many of them are descendants of these people.

The Williamite forces, composed of British, Dutch and Danish armies as well as troops raised in Ulster, ended Jacobite resistance by 1691, confirming the Protestant monopoly on power in Ireland. Their victories at Derry, the Boyne and Aughrim are still commemorated by the Orange Order into the 21st century.

Finally, another major influx of Scots into northern Ireland occurred in the late 1690s, when tens of thousands of people fled a famine in Scotland to come to Ulster

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Scots_people

alastair

Happyman42 wrote: »

It is when it incites hate.

Well that's a different matter - incitement isn't bigotry.

Happyman42 wrote: »

Who said the monarch did?
The OO give their allegiance to the Monarch.

And you have a problem with that for some reason? Every priest in this country give their allegiance to a nice German man in Rome. The country rolls on regardless.

Happyman42

alastair wrote: »

Well that's a different matter - incitement isn't bigotry.

Everytime the OO take their bigotry onto the streets, that's incitement, plain and simple.
Ordinary decent protestants and Unionists can see that clearly now. That is why membership is below 30,000 and falling, from highs of 100,000 to 150,000. The bigots will usher the end.

And you have a problem with that for some reason? Every priest in this country give their allegiance to a nice German man in Rome. The country rolls on regardless.

More whataboutery.
The issue is the OO hiding behind the skirts of the head of state of the UK.

alastair

Happyman42 wrote: »

Everytime the OO take their bigotry onto the streets, that's incitement, plain and simple.

No it's not. The vast majority of OO parades are a celebration of a bigoted sensibility, but they clearly don't incite. Public bigotry still isn't a crime, I'm afraid.

Happyman42 wrote: »

More whataboutery.
The issue is the OO hiding behind the skirts of the head of state of the UK.

An 'issue' of your imagination. The monarchy, let alone the UK state, couldn't give two hoots about the Orange Order's oaths etc. And are you claiming that Canada isn't a secular representative democracy?

Fratton Fred

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Nope, sounds just about right to me.

At what point was the battle of the boyne about protestants invading a catholic nation?

You've obviously missed the part where the Pope was backing William of Orange as well.

billybudd

alastair wrote: »

Well actually... he is a pretty clear symbol of one part of British Protestantism.

Not in anyway, shape or form, adopted yes but a symbol? no, but i can understand a person with certain views being confused about it.

alastair

billybudd wrote: »

Not in anyway, shape or form, adopted yes but a symbol? no, but i can understand a person with certain views being confused about it.

You certainly are. Have you paid any attention to your flag recently?

billybudd

alastair wrote: »

You certainly are. Have you paid any attention to your flag recently?

Yes certainly, a small group of French women sympathetic to our plight gave it to us and we adopted it and with good intentions set the orange part as a hand of peace towards people loyal to WOO (were tolerant that way) and look where it got us? still dont see how WOO is a symbol of the protestant religion? care to elaborate?

alastair

billybudd wrote: »

Yes certainly, a small group of French women sympathetic to our plight gave it to us and we adopted it and with good intentions set the orange part as a hand of peace towards people loyal to WOO and look where it got us? still dont see how WOO is a symbol of the protestant religion? care to elaborate?

But nothing to suggest the religious symbolism of William of Orange at play there. Riiight.

The white in the centre signifies a lasting truce between the Orange and the Green, and I trust that beneath its folds the hands of the Irish Protestant and the Irish Catholic may be clasped in generous and heroic brotherhood.

Thomas Francis Meagher
April 15th 1848

billybudd

alastair wrote: »

But nothing to suggest the religious symbolism of William of Orange at play there. Riiight.

No, so Gerry Adams is a symbol of being roman catholic?

alastair

billybudd wrote: »

No, so Gerry Adams is a symbol of being roman catholic?

Has he got a colour obviously identified with him? No he doesn't. Is he represented on any flags? No he isn't. He's a symbol of Irish Republicanism, but a fairly watery one at that.

William of Orange, Orangism, Orange are all commonly understood symbols of a particular strand of British Protestant heritage. That's how we ended up with that symbolism on our flag.

billybudd

alastair wrote: »

Has he got a colour obviously identified with him? No he doesn't. Is he represented on any flags? No he isn't. He's a symbol of Irish Republicanism, but a fairly watery one at that.

William of Orange, Orangism, Orange are all commonly understood symbols of a particular strand of British Protestant heritage. That's how we ended up with that symbolism on our flag.

Dont get so angry.

His symbol is green, nationalist/republican. watery? in what way? how was his ideolgy on war different to WOO?

WOO is identifiable with British protestant heritage but is in no way a symbol of it, it is a religion and what proper religion has bigoty towards another religion?

alastair

billybudd wrote: »

Dont get so angry.

His symbol is green, nationalist/republican. watery? in what way? how was his ideolgy on war different to WOO?

WOO is identifiable with British protestant heritage but is in no way a symbol of it, it is a religion and what proper religion has bigoty towards another religion?

I'm not remotely angry.

Gerry Adams' symbol is green? Nope - he's appropriated a colour associated with Ireland and Nationalism - whereas The House of Orange provided a symbolic colour for Protestantism. You get the distinction? That's the difference between the quality of symbolism - WOO is Coke, Gerry is Roller Cola.

As regards 'proper' religion - I'm at a loss as to what you're trying to say. When we adopted the tricolour as our national flag, the significance of orange was clear to all.

Noreen1

alastair wrote: »

Away up the road with that nonsense.

Eh:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ethnic

   [eth-nik] Show IPA
adjective 1. pertaining to or characteristic of a people, especially a group (ethnic group) sharing a common and distinctive culture, religion, language, or the like.

2. referring to the origin, classification, characteristics, etc., of such groups.

3. being a member of an ethnic group, especially of a group that is a minority within a larger society: ethnic Chinese in San Francisco.

4. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of members of such a group.

5. belonging to or deriving from the cultural, racial, religious, or linguistic traditions of a people or country: ethnic dances.

alastair

Noreen1 wrote: »

Eh:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ethnic

Heh. I note you felt 'ethnic dances' watered down your position somewhat. All the pasty-faced indigenous residents of NI are from the same ethnic melting pot. There's no racism at play outside that church - just common or garden sectarianism.

Happyman42

alastair wrote: »

No it's not. The vast majority of OO parades are a celebration of a bigoted sensibility, but they clearly don't incite. Public bigotry still isn't a crime, I'm afraid.

When it incites it is.
Keep up the pathetic game you are playing, admitting the crime doesn't diminish it. Decent people and decent societies will keep going after bigots no matter where they hide.
30,000 left and falling. Probably a good deal more gone after the little stunt outside the church.

An 'issue' of your imagination. The monarchy, let alone the UK state, couldn't give two hoots about the Orange Order's oaths etc. And are you claiming that Canada isn't a secular representative democracy?

Why do you keep up with the whataboutery when you don't want to address the issues?

billybudd

alastair wrote: »

I'm not remotely angry.

Gerry Adams' symbol is green? Nope - he's appropriated a colour associated with Ireland and Nationalism - whereas The House of Orange provided a symbolic colour for Protestantism. You get the distinction? That's the difference between the quality of symbolism - WOO is Coke, Gerry is Roller Cola.

As regards 'proper' religion - I'm at a loss as to what you're trying to say. When we adopted the tricolour as our national flag, the significance of orange was clear to all.

Yes again passive agressive, WOO the more branded more respectable coke while poor gerry is the inferior roller cola. nice!

Interesting that there is no orange in the union jack but the RC religion is represented by the flag of st.patrick, its absolute tripe to adopt the color orange as a symbol of being protestant quite ludricrous really, but carry on i am enjoying laughing at you.

Happyman42

alastair wrote: »

Heh. I note you felt 'ethnic dances' watered down your position somewhat. All the pasty-faced indigenous residents of NI are from the same ethnic melting pot. There's no racism at play outside that church - just common or garden sectarianism.

The OO see themselves as members of the British race, when they invoke hatred against the Irish race, that is racism.

alastair

Happyman42 wrote: »

When it incites it is.
Keep up the pathetic game you are playing, admitting the crime doesn't diminish it. Decent people and decent societies will keep going after bigots no matter where they hide.
30,000 left and falling. Probably a good deal more gone after the little stunt outside the church.

Hundreds of thousands out for the marches this year, you'd be a fool to bet against the same story next year. What's 'pathetic' is attempting to wish away the reality of a movement that get punters out to that degree.

Happyman42 wrote: »

Why do you keep up with the whataboutery when you don't want to address the issues?

Because the point you raised is quite clearly deflated by those 'what abouts'. That's why. The UK is as much a secular state as Canada - regardless of what their monarch's relationship with one church or all might be.

alastair

Happyman42 wrote: »

The OO see themselves as members of the British race, when they invoke hatred against the Irish race, that is racism.

The 'British race'?! The 'Irish race'?! Away up the road!

Jimoslimos

alastair wrote: »

Hundreds of thousands out for the marches this year, you'd be a fool to bet against the same story next year. What's 'pathetic' is attempting to wish away the reality of a movement that get punters out to that degree.

It doesn't matter whether 50 or 50,000 people turn out to watch them. The actions of the OO are still wrong and should be condemned

Happyman42

alastair wrote: »

Hundreds of thousands out for the marches this year, you'd be a fool to bet against the same story next year. What's 'pathetic' is attempting to wish away the reality of a movement that get punters out to that degree.

Membership of the OO is 30,000 and falling. As I said, that so many go for the day out does not relate to or bolster the collapse in membership figures, since the peace process began.

Because the point you raised is quite clearly deflated by those 'what abouts'. That's why. The UK is as much a secular state as Canada - regardless of what their monarch's relationship with one church or all might be.

I give up, you clearly don't want to stray into territories that weaken your standpoint further.
You live in a state of denial similar to that of the orangeman, preferring to ridicule posters than address what they are actually saying.

cardwizzard

Fact of the matter is that no matter how much the OO try to dress up their organisation, they are rotting to the core with bigots and scum.

And until these elements are ousted, which IMO will never happen because they don't want them out, they will continue to be the same narrow minded, pathetic excuse of a 'culture' know to mankind.

Happyman42

alastair wrote: »

The 'British race'?! The 'Irish race'?! Away up the road!

We'll see how many scones you get offered in the field next year after your keynote speech claiming 'We are all the same, give up yer auld bowler hats!' :rolleyes:

alastair

billybudd wrote: »

Yes again passive agressive, WOO the more branded more respectable coke while poor gerry is the inferior roller cola. nice!

I'm guessing that whooshing noise over your head means nothing to you?

billybudd wrote: »

Interesting that there is no orange in the union jack but the RC religion is represented by the flag of st.patrick, its absolute tripe to adopt the color orange as a symbol of being protestant quite ludricrous really, but carry on i am enjoying laughing at you.

The Union flag is a composite of the various countries of the UK. The only religious symbolism in any of those relates to generic christianity - unlike the tricolour. The cross of Saint Patrick is not a religious symbol - it's the symbol of a British chivalric order.

alastair

Happyman42 wrote: »

Membership of the OO is 30,000 and falling. As I said, that so many go for the day out does not relate to or bolster the collapse in membership figures, since the peace process began.

Yeah - keep ignores the hundreds of thousands out on the roads in support of this withering organisation. Maybe no-one will come out next year, eh?

Happyman42 wrote: »

I give up, you clearly don't want to stray into territories that weaken your standpoint further.
You live in a state of denial similar to that of the orangeman, preferring to ridicule posters than address what they are actually saying.

I'm addressing your points. Sadly you don't like what I'm posting though. I'd say the denial problem isn't at this end.

Happyman42

alastair wrote: »

Yeah - keep ignores the hundreds of thousands out on the roads in support of this withering organisation. Maybe no-one will come out next year, eh?

Are you going to address the collapse in membership or not? Jesus H.:rolleyes: