orange provocation

Doc Ruby

philologos wrote: »

I have no problem condemning provocateurs. I'd rather do so in equal measure if that's OK?

For the record, no, I'm not a loyalist sympathiser, nor am I a republican sympathiser :pac:



They as a whole? - I agree that there are a lot of people who are more interested in being provocateurs. At the same time though, I won't say that the 12th of July is inherently rotten, and I do believe a lot of people go out to celebrate with good intentions. I think we need to spend some time understanding this from their perspective instead of sitting back and shouting condemnation.

I don't think it is as simple as many people make it out to be.

philologos wrote: »

Location: London, UK

Speaking of nationalism...

pragmatic1

southsiderosie wrote: »

To be fair, I am neither white, nor British, nor Protestant, and I quite liked Belfast. Maybe I benefitted somewhat from my third party status; as an older lady once told me "we are nice to outsiders and not so nice to each other".

My feeling was that 95% of people are lovely, but the 5% who are bad are REALLY REALLY bad. Unfortunately, it seems like there is a lot of tacit acceptance of what the 5% does either out of fear, a warped sense of loyalty, an unwillingness to broker outside criticism, or a sense that only the passage of time will really make a difference, so why even bother in the present? That's what can make the North feel so depressing sometimes: when I see videos like this, or the massive UVF bonfire that went up at the entry to the hospital a few years ago, I can't help but think that the inmates are still running the asylum.

Tbh it isn't just a tiny little minority of unionists that are like that. It's a lot more than many people would be comfortable with. And that's not counting the air of superiority many have towards Irish people. Groups like the IRA don't just materialise out of thin air.

alastair

Noreen1 wrote: »

You think only the Nationalists go down South?

Nope - did I say that?

Noreen1 wrote: »

Every year, on the 12th, there are as many Northern reg. cars on the road in Donegal as there are Southern reg. cars.

These people come from both Communities, Protestant and Catholic.
The Protestants tend to gather, and celebrate the day peacefully in areas where there is an existing Protestant Community, though some do venture into traditional "Catholic" areas.

The Catholics tend to disperse more, throughout the County.

Your throwaway comment reveals a lack of understanding of both Communities, tbh.

You reckon? Why's that then?

Noreen1 wrote: »

Not all Protestants/Unionists want to celebrate the day by marching/banging on drums, or commemorating King Billy.

Really!! Any other revelations? You don't think I might have picked up on that from working years with colleagues of various religious persuasions up North?

Noreen1 wrote: »

You might be surprised at just how many want to enjoy a public holiday, without the political/sectarian connotations.

I don't think so - my guess would be a vast majority. Surprised?

Noreen1 wrote: »

It's rather ironic that so many Unionist people choose to come to the Republic to celebrate a holiday that is part of their culture, don't you think?

Not really. No more so that jetting off to Spain would be.

philologos

southsiderosie wrote: »

Why does everything regarding the north have to be done 'in equal measure'? This isn't a thread about Republicans, it is about a holiday that is celebrated by loyalists. Can we for once have a conversation about the North that isn't plagued by whataboutery?

I guess, a lot of it is down to the perspective I need to bring to this issue.

I've heard people all around me condemn loyalists and unionists as nutters. I'm very skeptical as to whether or not that is the full truth. I prefer to investigate things for myself, and from the looks at it, it looks as if both sides are as bad as eachother to be honest.

So yeah, I want to get a balanced view of the matter rather than spouting what is merely popular.

In terms of my personal identity - I treat a lot of the things I was taught, or inculcated into in Irish society with an open mind. I think in order to get to the truth of things, that's only right and proper.

alastair

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Speaking of nationalism...

That's telling them! The cheek of voicing an opinion from that there London.

philologos

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Speaking of nationalism...

I'm an Irishman living in England, what's your point?

Doc Ruby

alastair wrote: »

That's telling them! The cheek of voicing an opinion from that there London.

I just find it ironic that the normally indefatiguable and strident christian philologos is standing up for racists and sectarianism.

Where there's smoke, there's a burning bush.

Doc Ruby

philologos wrote: »

I'm an Irishman living in England, what's your point?

Sure you are.

Chuck Stone

philologos wrote: »

I have no problem condemning provocateurs. I'd rather do so in equal measure if that's OK?

So you're here to project an image of superior morals, smug virtue and self-righteousness?

southsiderosie

pragmatic1 wrote: »

Tbh it isn't just a tiny little minority of unionists that are like that. It's a lot more than many people would be comfortable with. And that's not counting the air of superiority many have towards Irish people. Groups like the IRA don't just materialise out of thin air.

But I do think that many unionists, regardless of their feelings about Catholics, still look at stuff like flag-burning, etc as something that 'respectable' people don't do. They won't be sending their kids to Catholic school anytime soon, but paramilitary flags and the like are a bit much.

My father grew up in the American South in the 1950s, and he will be the first to tell you that folks in Mississippi are still racist as hell - many high schools still have separate proms for the black kids and the white kids. But despite their leanings, people today aren't going nullify trials for racists who attack blacks the way they did back in the 60s, and Mississippi had some of the fastest growth in American inter-racial marriages over the last ten years.

alastair

Doc Ruby wrote: »

I just find it ironic that the normally indefatiguable and strident christian philologos is standing up for racists and sectarianism.

Where there's smoke, there's a burning bush.

And what's any of this got to do with where they're posting from? Or should I just peg this down to kneejerk localism?

philologos

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Sure you are.

:rolleyes:

Chuck Stone wrote: »

So you're here to project an image o, superior morals, smug virtue and self-righteousness?

I'm not any better than anyone else. I'm reluctant to jump to conclusions that's all.

Noreen1

philologos wrote: »

It's a bank holiday. Some people like to use that as an opportunity to go on a trip, what odds?

Philologos, it's not the only Bank Holiday in the year - but it certainly is the one that sees a mass exodus of both Communities from Northern Ireland, moreso than any other.

I think it reflects very badly on the Orange Order that the parades have been allowed to become such flashpoints in some areas that moderates from both Communities feel more welcome in the Republic.

I have no issue with Cultural celebrations. Bigotry and Sectarianism, however, are an entirely different matter, and entirely un-Christian, hence the need felt by Protestants, and Catholics to find a neutral place where they are free to celebrate the holiday the way they want to.

I think it's horrendous that they have to leave their homes to be sure of having a peaceful day.
It's an issue that the OO should have addressed years ago.

Many parades go ahead, peacefully.
However, the same areas, therefore, presumably, the same lodges, cause trouble year after year - and the same apologists show up here defending their actions.
It's long past time this kind of behaviour was outlawed by the order. Instead, they seem to condone it - thus ensuring that the trouble continues, and peace-loving members of their own Community feel obliged to leave - and come to areas where the Community is Catholic, by majority - yet more tolerant, by far.

I find it ironic - but also very sad.

philologos

Doc Ruby wrote: »

I just find it ironic that the normally indefatiguable and strident christian philologos is standing up for racists and sectarianism.

Where there's smoke, there's a burning bush.

Really?

I have no problem condemning provocateurs. I'd rather do so in equal measure if that's OK?

For the record, no, I'm not a loyalist sympathiser, nor am I a republican sympathiser

I'm now standing up for "racists" and "sectarianism"?

alastair

Noreen1 wrote: »

Many parades go ahead, peacefully.
However, the same areas, therefore, presumably, the same lodges, cause trouble year after year - and the same apologists show up here defending their actions.

Who do you think has defended, or apologised for their actions, exactly?

southsiderosie

philologos wrote: »

I guess, a lot of it is down to the perspective I need to bring to this issue.

I've heard people all around me condemn loyalists and unionists as nutters. I'm very skeptical as to whether or not that is the full truth. I prefer to investigate things for myself, and from the looks at it, it looks as if both sides are as bad as eachother to be honest.

So yeah, I want to get a balanced view of the matter rather than spouting what is merely popular.

In terms of my personal identity - I treat a lot of the things I was taught, or inculcated into in Irish society with an open mind. I think in order to get to the truth of things, that's only right and proper.

But do you think what went on in that video - which is the point of this thread, after all - represents the behavior of rational people? And here I am referring both to the decision to march around in circles singing a song that everyone knows is anti-Catholic in front of a Catholic Church and to the reaction of the men who attacked the guy recording it.

TBH the attempt to paint this as 'one side is as bad as the other' is just seems like an attempt at rationalization: the video can and should be judged on its own merits without having to go back to half a millennium of tit for tat.

Doc Ruby

philologos wrote: »

I'm now standing up for "racists" and "sectarianism"

Good stuff, the first step is admitting you have a problem.

golden lane

it is the dying gasp of a people that have lost......how long it will take them to realise that...god knows.....but in their hearts, there is a well desefved pain.....

Benny_Cake

philologos wrote: »

southsiderosie wrote: »

Why does everything regarding the north have to be done 'in equal measure'? This isn't a thread about Republicans, it is about a holiday that is celebrated by loyalists. Can we for once have a conversation about the North that isn't plagued by whataboutery?

I guess, a lot of it is down to the perspective I need to bring to this issue.

I've heard people all around me condemn loyalists and unionists as nutters. I'm very skeptical as to whether or not that is the full truth. I prefer to investigate things for myself, and from the looks at it, it looks as if both sides are as bad as eachother to be honest.

So yeah, I want to get a balanced view of the matter rather than spouting what is merely popular.

In terms of my personal identity - I treat a lot of the things I was taught, or inculcated into in Irish society with an open mind. I think in order to get to the truth of things, that's only right and proper.

I haven't heard anyone say that all loyalists and unionists are nutters. Clearly the overwhelming majority are decent people. However, anyone who marches around a church playing provocative songs is either a nutter, or something much worse.

I'm sure if the dissidents in Derry were up to their nutjob activities there would be plenty posted here about that too.

philologos

Noreen1 wrote: »

Philologos, it's not the only Bank Holiday in the year - but it certainly is the one that sees a mass exodus of both Communities from Northern Ireland, moreso than any other.

I don't know if I would say that of certainty. I'd be interested if you had statistics we could look at though.

Noreen1 wrote: »

I have no issue with Cultural celebrations. Bigotry and Sectarianism, however, are an entirely different matter, and entirely un-Christian, hence the need felt by Protestants, and Catholics to find a neutral place where they are free to celebrate the holiday the way they want to.

I'm not sure if the 12th of July is entirely rotten. Much as I'm not sure that events like Guy Fawke's Night are entirely rotten. It largely depends on what people do with these events that make them count.

Noreen1 wrote: »

Many parades go ahead, peacefully.
However, the same areas, therefore, presumably, the same lodges, cause trouble year after year - and the same apologists show up here defending their actions.
It's long past time this kind of behaviour was outlawed by the order. Instead, they seem to condone it - thus ensuring that the trouble continues, and peace-loving members of their own Community feel obliged to leave - and come to areas where the Community is Catholic, by majority - yet more tolerant, by far.

I think that the PSNI need to have more consultation in respect to these marches. But ultimately people should have the freedom to celebrate on the 12th of July, the question is as to how to do that without rubbing peoples noses up in it.

Benny_Cake wrote: »

I haven't heard anyone say that all loyalists and unionists are nutters. Clearly the overwhelming majority are decent people. However, anyone who marches around a church playing provocative songs is either a nutter, or something much worse.

I'm sure if the dissidents in Derry were up to their nutjob activities there would be plenty posted here about that too.

For the record, I agree with you.

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Good stuff, the first step is admitting you have a problem.

You're coming across as just a little bit silly, and that's in addition to accusing me of lying about my nationality on this thread

I'm simply trying to see what the truth is on this issue.

Nodin

alastair wrote: »

And what's any of this got to do with where they're posting from? Or should I just peg this down to kneejerk localism?

If it was, why should it bother you?

alastair

Nodin wrote: »

If it was, why should it bother you?

It doesn't bother me at all - I'm clear now that they guy is an idiot, and can take it from there.

Nodin

philologos wrote: »

..............



I think that the PSNI need to have more consultation in respect to these marches. But ultimately people should have the freedom to celebrate on the 12th of July, the question is as to how to do that without rubbing peoples noses up in it.
...........

Not marching in contested areas, or marching in a circle in front of a catholic church singing sectarian songs. Amazing complex issues to grasp there.

Border-Rat

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Anyone smell a re-reg here?

Careful. They 'infract' you for saying this now.

philologos

southsiderosie wrote: »

But do you think what went on in that video - which is the point of this thread, after all - represents the behavior of rational people? And here I am referring both to the decision to march around in circles singing a song that everyone knows is anti-Catholic in front of a Catholic Church and to the reaction of the men who attacked the guy recording it.

TBH the attempt to paint this as 'one side is as bad as the other' is just seems like an attempt at rationalization: the video can and should be judged on its own merits without having to go back to half a millennium of tit for tat.

Of course it isn't the behaviour of rational people.

The question is whether or not this represents the 12th of July as a whole. I'm a skeptic I have to say, and I prefer for obvious reasons to put this into perspective.

I'm not saying anything spectacular here.

Oranage2

southsiderosie wrote: »

But do you think what went on in that video - which is the point of this thread, after all - represents the behavior of rational people? And here I am referring both to the decision to march around in circles singing a song that everyone knows is anti-Catholic in front of a Catholic Church and to the reaction of the men who attacked the guy recording it.

TBH the attempt to paint this as 'one side is as bad as the other' is just seems like an attempt at rationalization: the video can and should be judged on its own merits without having to go back to half a millennium of tit for tat.

Of course there are two sides to the story and the truth is they're as bad as each other and that what Phil was saying.

http://www.964eagle.co.uk/news/uk-news/718413/police-wounded-in-northern-ireland-violence/

There's a lot more to the video then some nuts marching outside a church. Northern Ireland is a religious and political mine field and these marches are only a small part of it.

Border-Rat

philologos wrote: »

Of course it isn't the behaviour of rational people.

The question is whether or not this represents the 12th of July as a whole. I'm a skeptic I have to say, and I prefer for obvious reasons to put this into perspective.

I'm not saying anything spectacular here.

It does represent the 12th of July as a whole. Ever been accosted at an armed roadblock on the 12th of July? I have, and it was nowhere near Belfast. Of course you haven't, because you've never set foot on this Island.

BBDBB

philologos wrote: »

Of course it isn't the behaviour of rational people.

The question is whether or not this represents the 12th of July as a whole. I'm a skeptic I have to say, and I prefer for obvious reasons to put this into perspective.

I'm not saying anything spectacular here.

ahh but you are occupying the middle ground of the fair and just minded man.............hence you are despised and attacked by both sides of the debate

Border-Rat

Oranage2 wrote: »

Of course there are two sides to the story and the truth is they're as bad as each other and that what Phil was saying.

http://www.964eagle.co.uk/news/uk-news/718413/police-wounded-in-northern-ireland-violence/

There's a lot more to the video then some nuts marching outside a church. Northern Ireland is a religious and political mine field and these marches are only a small part of it.

So the local Priest wounded the officers and was held up in the Chapel? And singing songs about the famine is the job for convicting whoever assaulted the police?

Listen to yourself.

philologos

Border-Rat wrote: »

It does represent the 12th of July as a whole. Ever been accosted at an armed roadblock on the 12th of July? I have, and it was nowhere near Belfast. Of course you haven't, because you've never set foot on this Island.

To point out again, I was born and raised in Ireland.

Noreen1

philologos wrote: »

I don't know if I would say that of certainty. I'd be interested if you had statistics we could look at though.



I'm not sure if the 12th of July is entirely rotten. Much as I'm not sure that events like Guy Fawke's Night are entirely rotten. It largely depends on what people do with these events that make them count.



I think that the PSNI need to have more consultation in respect to these marches. But ultimately people should have the freedom to celebrate on the 12th of July, the question is as to how to do that without rubbing peoples noses up in it.



For the record, I agree with you.

Since so many marches go ahead peacefully, it seems that a lot of lodges know how to go about celebrating without rubbing peoples noses in it.
Ultimately, the PSNI cannot eradicate sectarianism - they can only police it.

What is needed is real leadership from both Communities - but moreso the one causing the provocation.
The majority of Orange Order members seem to be able to celebrate without offensive and provocative displays. That being the case - could a motion not be passed, where provocative displays would result in sanctions, such as any lodge engaging in provocation/sectarianism being banned from taking part in any future marches for X period of time - say, the rest of the season, or the following season if they limit their provocation to the end of the marching season?

There has to be a way forward. Just ignoring the problem, or worse, condoning it, is only adding fuel to the flames.

ps. I don't have statistics for the numbers of Protestants leaving the North on the 12th, vs. on other bank holidays.
I do, however, travel around Donegal a lot, and whereas it is true that a lot of people from N.I regularly spend Bank Holidays in Donegal, there are noticeably more cars with a Northern reg. to be seen parked in Protestant communities on the 12th, than on other Bank holidays.
You can choose to take my word for it, or not. That is your right, but I am telling the truth.

Nodin

philologos wrote: »

Of course it isn't the behaviour of rational people.

The question is whether or not this represents the 12th of July as a whole. I'm a skeptic I have to say, and I prefer for obvious reasons to put this into perspective.

.

Heres some perspective for ye.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Twelfth

philologos

Noreen1 wrote: »

Since so many marches go ahead peacefully, it seems that a lot of lodges know how to go about celebrating without rubbing peoples noses in it.
Ultimately, the PSNI cannot eradicate sectarianism - they can only police it.

The PSNI can enforce march paths. The lodges can consult better with the PSNI. Therefore there can be things done about it.

Noreen1 wrote: »

What is needed is real leadership from both Communities - but moreso the one causing the provocation.

Absolutely. I think level headed policing is the only right way to deal with situations like these.

Noreen1 wrote: »

The majority of Orange Order members seem to be able to celebrate without offensive and provocative displays. That being the case - could a motion not be passed, where provocative displays would result in sanctions, such as any lodge engaging in provocation/sectarianism being banned from taking part in any future marches for X period of time - say, the rest of the season, or the following season if they limit their provocation to the end of the marching season?

Obviously we'd need to talk as to what constitutes a "provocative display", but I agree hands down that alternative paths should be considered. Intentional intimidation of others is of course something to be frowned upon, and something to be condemned.

Noreen1 wrote: »

There has to be a way forward. Just ignoring the problem, or worse, condoning it, is only adding fuel to the flames.

Of course. I understand that entirely.

Nodin wrote: »

Heres some perspective for ye.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Twelfth

I know full well what it is about Nodin. I'm questioning simplistic attitudes that are presented towards it on this thread. I'm not sure it is exactly as people say it is.

Border-Rat

philologos wrote: »

To point out again, I was born and raised in Ireland.

Well to field your query - Loyalists act like savages on the 12th and this is not an isolated incident.

donegal_man

fryup wrote: »

:rolleyes: give me a break, hardly any prods left in the republic..they were driven out

Hell's Bells! Why did nobody tell my family this in time? Is there still time for us to catch the boat?
Huge difference between Orange "culture" and Protestantism, where I grew up in the Midlands the Orange Order was not seen as having anything to do with our culture, which was Irish, it was seen as something weird that happened in "the wee black north". It was only when I moved to Donegal that I became aware of there being lodges in the Republic and even when I got to know a couple of people involved in the order here they didn't seem at least to share the bigotry of their colleagues across the border, for example they attended their Catholic neighbours weddings, funerals etc.

Nodin

philologos wrote: »

I know full well what it is about Nodin. I'm questioning simplistic attitudes that are presented towards it on this thread. I'm not sure it is exactly as people say it is.

If you read that links section on the 12th in NI you wouldn't be coming out with that.

Nodin

Border-Rat wrote: »

Well to field your query - Loyalists act like savages on the 12th and this is not an isolated incident.

Nor would that be an isolated opinion.

In February 1992, the loyalist Ulster Defence Association (UDA) shot dead five Catholic civilians in a betting shop in Belfast. When Orangemen marched past the shop that 12th July, some marchers held up five fingers in mockery of the five dead. The Secretary of State, Patrick Mayhew, said that they "would have disgraced a tribe of cannibals".[

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Twelfth

Border-Rat

Nodin wrote: »

Nor would that be an isolated opinion.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Twelfth

What stands out more to me is the murder of a taxi driver and the burning to death of 3 Catholic children during the Drumcree standoff. After these murders, Orangemen continued their protest. Filth.

h2005

alastair wrote: »

Singing about the famine outside a Catholic church isn't actually racist, and the OO is openly sectarian - which isn't a problem until they start to actually suppress someone else on the back of that sectarianism. I'm not a subscriber to their beliefs, but it certainly doesn't bother me that they hold them - or that they perform a merry song and dance outside a church in support of them. Who was harmed on the back of the act?

The guy filming it?

philologos

Nodin wrote: »

If you read that links section on the 12th in NI you wouldn't be coming out with that.

I've read the article before.

You seem to be missing my point by a barge pole. My point was, that many people celebrate the Twelfth legitimately in Northern Ireland. Not all who are involved are provocateurs or promote that kind of attitude towards Roman Catholics.

It's not that difficult to understand my position. I don't doubt for a second that there has been violence surrounding it in the past.

Border-Rat

philologos wrote: »

I've read the article before.

You seem to be missing my point by a barge pole. My point was, that many people celebrate the Twelfth legitimately in Northern Ireland. Not all who are involved are provocateurs or promote that kind of attitude towards Roman Catholics.

It's not that difficult to understand my position. I don't doubt for a second that there has been violence surrounding it in the past.

Not condemning it is supporting it.

gurramok

philologos wrote: »

I don't know if I would say that of certainty. I'd be interested if you had statistics we could look at though.

Well, yesterday morning and afternoon after work I had the privilege of travelling on the M50(Dublin ring road motorway) all northside, nearly every 7th vehicle(all types) had a Northern reg. Co-workers travelling from the southside reported the same thing. You'd have to assume that not all occupants were of Nationalist persuasion. To see this on a major Dublin road was unreal.

alastair

h2005 wrote: »

The guy filming it?

The Shinner councillor filming wasn't injured.

philologos

Border-Rat wrote: »

Not condemning it is supporting it.

I don't condemn the Twelfth as an actual event. It is up to the people of Northern Ireland as to what they want to commemorate, and as to what they want to celebrate.

I do condemn thuggish behaviour of all kinds and wherever it comes from. I've said as much very very clearly in my posts.

pragmatic1

southsiderosie wrote: »

But I do think that many unionists, regardless of their feelings about Catholics, still look at stuff like flag-burning, etc as something that 'respectable' people don't do. They won't be sending their kids to Catholic school anytime soon, but paramilitary flags and the like are a bit much.

My father grew up in the American South in the 1950s, and he will be the first to tell you that folks in Mississippi are still racist as hell - many high schools still have separate proms for the black kids and the white kids. But despite their leanings, people today aren't going nullify trials for racists who attack blacks the way they did back in the 60s, and Mississippi had some of the fastest growth in American inter-racial marriages over the last ten years.

There's a unionist MP from the "moderate" UUP called James Taylor, he's actually a lord. He's on record saying that he had a sneaking admiration for sectarian killers like UDA C Company and the Shankill Butchers. You'd never hear a man like John Hume saying anything like that.

In the 1970s they had things called romper rooms in bars in Belfast. They'd pick up drunk Taigs, take them to loyalist bars and most people in the bar would have a hand in battering the poor Taig to death, "respectable" orange men and all.

Oranage2

Border-Rat wrote: »

So the local Priest wounded the officers and was held up in the Chapel? And singing songs about the famine is the job for convicting whoever assaulted the police?

Listen to yourself.

Right I've read enough of your posts to know you're a troll.

But im saying some orange men are scum(not all) and im also saying that the republics aren't innocent either.

Doc Ruby

philologos wrote: »

I don't condemn the Twelfth as an actual event. It is up to the people of Northern Ireland as to what they want to commemorate, and as to what they want to celebrate.

I do condemn thuggish behaviour of all kinds and wherever it comes from. I've said as much very very clearly in my posts.

People like you are why I abandoned the Abrahamic religions.

philologos

Doc Ruby wrote: »

People like you are why I abandoned the Abrahamic religions.

"People like me"? - You mean people who seek to know the truth of the matter rather than relying on human conjecture?

Sorry, I should be banging on about how all who celebrate the Twelfth are pure evil shouldn't I?

Forgive me, if I can't believe that to be true.

You're the one who has claimed I've lied about my nationality, and you're the one who claims that I advocated "racism" and "sectarianism" for simply saying I'm not sure if you're right?

h2005

alastair wrote: »

The Shinner councillor filming wasn't injured.

No just assaulted sure that`s grand

Mardy Bum

It is more of a class issue now under the false banner of religion. For generations there has been large parts of the north on the poverty line. A full second level education was rarely attained and even a primary education was rare. These same people spawned more of the same idiots who never got a education as they either could not afford it or the parents were lazy gits who couldn't care less and the cycle continued to the present day. This will most likely continue but to a lesser extent as the class divide lessens.