orange provocation

Nodin

woodoo wrote: »

It is a guess based on how he is coming across in his posts.

It rather presumes that protestant=unionist/loyalist. I think it time we moved passed that kind of thing.

Nodin

getzls wrote: »

Man arrested for attempted murder it seems during rioting, wonder how far he came to be offended? They have travelled from far and wide before.

So whats that vague rant to do with some shower in their fancy boy-scout uniforms playing their hate filled crap outside a catholic church?

woodoo

Nodin wrote: »

It rather presumes that protestant=unionist/loyalist. I think it time we moved passed that kind of thing.

I used his name too in my guesstimate...

Alistair from dublin defending the OO, going out with a belfast girl. Its a pure guess.

A generalisation would be if i heard they were protestants and assumed he was a unionist.

Technique

Laneyh wrote: »

There are a few Orange Orders in the South in Donegal & Cavan.. Do they march on the 12th get up to anything that riles the rest of the population ?

There's quite a few lodges in this part of the world, but rarely any trouble/controversy. They get funding from the (Irish) state for refurbishment of Orange Halls etc. and the Dept. of Foreign Affairs are one of the main financial backers of the Apprentice Boys parade each year in Derry.

getzls

Nodin wrote: »

???????

Yeah, don't know what happened there!

getzls

Nodin wrote: »

???????

Yeah, don't know what happened there!

getzls

Nodin wrote: »

So whats that vague rant to do with some shower in their fancy boy-scout uniforms playing their hate filled crap outside a catholic church?

Well, the title of the thread is, orange provocation. Think the O.O. were well away by the time the rioters and gunmen appeared. Old habits die hard.

Nodin

getzls wrote: »

Well, the title of the thread is, orange provocation. Think the O.O. were well away by the time the rioters and gunmen appeared. Old habits die hard.

So the OO marching down an area they weren't wanted in, and skipping a few miles nobody cared about to get there had nothing to do with it. Coincidence.

Happyman42

Bessiebee wrote: »

care to elaborate on "protestant nonsense"??

The OO's enshrined belief; here, in Africa, in America, in Bray, is to defend the protestant faith against the demonic influences of the roman church. It underpins everything they stand for, they will defile the crown if the crown turns against protestantism or the 'reformation' or what the OO stands for.
The OO in Dublin and Wicklow is such a non entity that it managed to pass under the radar of my wife, who is a proud and good protestant who was born into the biggest protestant parish in Dublin and who never, ever heard of the existence of an Orange lodge in her parish. That Orange lodge is being used by the Northern organisation in an attempt to bring legitimacy to it's existence.
Here, for a giggle, is their gritted teeth welcome of Michael D. Higgins election to President, it kinda speaks for itself in it vaingloriousness,

As President, he will be responsible for protecting the civil and religious liberties, which flow from the Glorious Revolution of 1688, and which are enshrined in the Irish Constitution and the European Convention on Human Rights.

Bessiebee

I went to Boarding School in Dublin, not too far from your wife's church - a big Protestant School - guess what, everyone there had heard of the OO and the existence of a Lodge in Dublin - no one ever admitted to being keen to join or learn anything about it but they knew it existed - guess your wife was living in a bubble or maybe she confused it with the Masonic Lodge and denies all knowledge about being aware of its existence which of course she would be conditioned to do.

Happyman42

Bessiebee wrote: »

I went to Boarding School in Dublin, not too far from your wife's church - a big Protestant School - guess what, everyone there had heard of the OO and the existence of a Lodge in Dublin - no one ever admitted to being keen to join or learn anything about it but they knew it existed - guess your wife was living in a bubble or maybe she confused it with the Masonic Lodge and denies all knowledge about being aware of its existence which of course she would be conditioned to do.

Never mind my wife, address the pointlessness of an OO in Dublin and their even more pointlessness to 'being a protestant' in the republic. Then have a go at their alliegance to a foreign monarchy....not their identity..their ALLIEGENCE, which by the way, my wife in a bubble, finds hilarious. The worst thing the Dublin-Wicklow LOI Orange Lodge ever did was letting actual real protestants find out about them.

Bessiebee

Happyman42 wrote: »

Never mind my wife, address the pointlessness of an OO in Dublin and their even more pointlessness to 'being a protestant' in the republic. Then have a go at their alliegance to a foreign monarchy....not their identity..their ALLIEGENCE, which by the way, my wife in a bubble, finds hilarious. The worst thing the Dublin-Wicklow LOI Orange Lodge ever did was letting actual real protestants find out about them.

Where did I say there was a "point" to the OO in Dublin? I merely pointed out the fact that they exist and have therefore no intention of addressing their "pointlessness". I just find it hard to believe that a protestant in Dublin would be unaware of their existence. As to their alliegance to a foreign monarchy, did I profess to having any information on the thinkings of the OO or any of its members, so perhaps your questions might be better put to someone who does know

ahal

First of all the Fyffes saga, now this :pac:

Happyman42

Bessiebee wrote: »

Where did I say there was a "point" to the OO in Dublin? I merely pointed out the fact that they exist and have therefore no intention of addressing their "pointlessness". I just find it hard to believe that a protestant in Dublin would be unaware of their existence. As to their alliegance to a foreign monarchy, did I profess to having any information on the thinkings of the OO or any of its members, so perhaps your questions might be better put to someone who does know

Thursday she found the website of DW LOI, because I showed it to her, so amazed, was she, that she sent the link to about 15 of her friends (from the parish) none of them where aware of the Dublin-Wicklow lodge. They have been swapping 'quotes' from it since.

Bessiebee

Have they nothing better to be going?

Bessiebee

I meant doing.

TommyPolack

Laneyh wrote: »

I've seen better culture in a yoghurt pot but really I think there are only 2 ways to go to respond to this

1. Completely ignore them, not be out on the street watching them.. This will serve to highlight how childish and petty it is
it won't be near as enjoyable for them if they think the Catholics are unaffected by it.

2. Inject some humour - this will confuse the pompous bigots.
Perhaps a river dance flashmob timed to coincide with there little march.

3. Make them pay untill they learn to respect other.

alastair

woodoo wrote: »

I'll guess you are a Dublin protestant going out with a Belfast protestant and are well and truly bought and sold by the idea of unionism/loyalism

I'm guessing you regularly put your foot in your own arse then? :rolleyes:

alastair

TommyPolack wrote: »

3. Make them pay untill they learn to respect other.

How's that going to work then?

alastair

Happyman42 wrote: »

The OO's enshrined belief; here, in Africa, in America, in Bray, is to defend the protestant faith against the demonic influences of the roman church. It underpins everything they stand for, they will defile the crown if the crown turns against protestantism or the 'reformation' or what the OO stands for.
The OO in Dublin and Wicklow is such a non entity that it managed to pass under the radar of my wife, who is a proud and good protestant who was born into the biggest protestant parish in Dublin and who never, ever heard of the existence of an Orange lodge in her parish. That Orange lodge is being used by the Northern organisation in an attempt to bring legitimacy to it's existence.
Here, for a giggle, is their gritted teeth welcome of Michael D. Higgins election to President, it kinda speaks for itself in it vaingloriousness,

Your personal opinions about the OO (or your wife's ignorance of their lodges) doesn't really make their existence or beliefs 'protestant nonsense'. There's all kinds of strands to protestantism, and just because this bunch are very keen on one particular angle, and they might represent a small minority in south county Dublin or whatever, doesn't mean they're 'pointless'. You could equally make the same claim for any religious organisation - large or small.

tbh - your antagonism is what shines through most clearly - and yet you expect more respect from them.

Cú Giobach

midlandsmissus wrote: »

With regards to your first comment.They are saying Northern Ireland is part of Britain, and if the Catholics want to be Irish they should **** off back to the republic of Ireland.

I lived in Northern Ireland long enough to see that there are many people who consider it to be in no way, shape or form, Ireland.

What do these people's irrational fantasise have to do with reality?
If they consider that part of Ireland is not Ireland by virtue of it being in the UK, where does this leave England, Scotland and Wales? Are these not really England, Scotland or Wales and the inhabitants not fully English Scottish or Welsh and would they only become so if they left the Union?
Were my grandparents who were born in Cork and Kerry before 1922 not Irish because they were born in the UK, how about my grandfather who was born in Belfast pre-1922 was he Irish?
Some people aren't the brightest.

alastair

Cú Giobach wrote: »

What do these people's irrational fantasise have to do with reality?
If they consider that part of Ireland is not Ireland by virtue of it being in the UK, where does this leave England, Scotland and Wales? Are these not really England, Scotland or Wales and the inhabitants not fully English Scottish or Welsh and would they only become so if they left the Union?
Were my grandparents who were born in Cork and Kerry before 1922 not Irish because they were born in the UK, how about my grandfather who was born in Belfast pre-1922 was he Irish?
Some people aren't the brightest.

They would consider themselves Ulstermen/women. I'd say that some Cornish wouldn't consider themselves English - even though they undoubtedly were born and raised in English territory. Rationality doesn't really enter into it - if they reckon they're not Irish, they probably aren't - by any meaningful cultural allegiance - and you can't really expect them to be convinced otherwise.

billybudd

How anyone can try and understand bigots singing provocative scottish football hooligan songs outside a place of whorship is beyond me.

OO lodges & beliefs should not be tolerated in the republic as to do so is to condone genocide & unjust war.

Both religions got on fine before OO and before william of orange and can do so again without the need to put one or the other down.

Shame on any Irish person who thinks this is ok to tolerate.

kryogen

Rationalism has got to come in to it tbh, if they are born on this island, of Ireland. They are Irish.

My grandfather was English, born there, died in Ireland. Still English. My father was born in England, has lived 40+ years in Ireland, does not consider himself to be English from a "cultural" point of view, doesn't really make a difference he is English.

Ian Paisley - Irish.

They can be Unionist if they like, they are part of the United Kingdom, but they are Irishmen/women whether they like it or not.

Cú Giobach

alastair wrote: »

They would consider themselves Ulstermen/women. I'd say that some Cornish wouldn't consider themselves English - even though they undoubtedly were born and raised in English territory. Rationality doesn't really enter into it - if they reckon they're not Irish, they probably aren't - by any meaningful cultural allegiance - and you can't really expect them to be convinced otherwise.

I'm not talking about how various sections of that society view themselves, but on the irrational concept that NI is not Ireland because it is in the UK.

kryogen

William of Orange wasn't even English!

It is not an English/Irish thing, it really shouldn't be, it is about an institution that is inherently anti Catholic. Catholics and people with Catholic relatives are banned from joining. Even if you stop being a Catholic you will not be admitted unless you are in the Protestant church for a "reasonable" period of time. That is discrimination based on religion, something that is frowned upon I believe. They claim to be a cultural institution, rubbish, they are overtly political, they have hired bands that play anti catholic songs at the marches, they have had many loyalist militants in their ranks.

Rather then go on and on, I will just say that the Orange Institution should be one of those illegal organisations like the Ku Klux Klan. Extreme view?

alastair

Cú Giobach wrote: »

I'm not talking about how various sections of that society view themselves, but on the irrational concept that NI is not Ireland because it is in the UK.

Nationality is all about cultural allegiance and heritage. Do you have the same difficulty with Canadians not considering themselves American, even though they're on the same continent as the US, and used to be joined at the hip as British colonies?

alastair

kryogen wrote: »

Rather then go on and on, I will just say that the Orange Institution should be one of those illegal organisations like the Ku Klux Klan. Extreme view?

I'd say so. There's more than a few groups that proscribe particular religions or groups from their organisiation - you'd be pretty busy sending various organisations underground if you took that line. I don't believe the KKK is illegal in any case.

Cú Giobach

alastair wrote: »

Nationality is all about cultural allegiance and heritage. Do you have the same difficulty with Canadians not considering themselves American, even though they're on the same continent as the US, and used to be joined at the hip as a British colonies?

I know it's early on a Sunday morning but I think my comment "I'm not talking about how various sections of that society view themselves, but on the irrational concept that NI is not Ireland because it is in the UK." is pretty clear, if you would like to engage me on that point please do, but do not make out I am saying something I am not. OK?

I'll even repeat again, I'm not talking about how various sections of that society view themselves, but on the irrational concept that NI is not Ireland because it is in the UK.

kryogen

alastair wrote: »

I'd say so. There's more than a few groups that proscribe particular religions or groups from their organisiation - you'd be pretty busy sending various organisations underground if you took that line. I don't believe the KKK is illegal in any case.

Is it not? I thought it was for some reason, it is certainly classed as a hate group, and was surely illegal at one time as being a member got you arrested (at least it did in A Time to Kill )

There have been comparisons made between the KKK and the OO actually, not far off.

I don't discriminate, any group that discriminates and promotes hate should be made illegal

alastair

Cú Giobach wrote: »

I know it's early on a Sunday morning but I think my comment "I'm not talking about how various sections of that society view themselves, but on the irrational concept that NI is not Ireland because it is in the UK." is pretty clear, if you would like to engage me on that point please do, but do not make out I am saying something I am not. OK?

I'll even repeat again, I'm not talking about how various sections of that society view themselves, but on the irrational concept that NI is not Ireland because it is in the UK.

You've put the cart before the horse. They don't consider themselves not Irish because they're living in the UK - they're more than aware that nationalists in NI consider themselves Irish. NI is part of the UK - that much is obvious to all. Ulstermen consider themselves British rather than Irish - not because they're living in the UK, but because they share a common British heritage.

billybudd

Cú Giobach wrote: »

I know it's early on a Sunday morning but I think my comment "I'm not talking about how various sections of that society view themselves, but on the irrational concept that NI is not Ireland because it is in the UK." is pretty clear, if you would like to engage me on that point please do, but do not make out I am saying something I am not. OK?

I'll even repeat again, I'm not talking about how various sections of that society view themselves, but on the irrational concept that NI is not Ireland because it is in the UK.

It is under the UK jurisdiction but resides on Irish soil. Most normal people in N.I will consider themselves Northern Irish.

steddyeddy

To be honest the ones that suffer most from their bigotry are the bigots themselves. Their shooting themselves in the foot with stunts like these and as a result they will never be taken seriously.

TommyPolack

kryogen wrote: »

William of Orange wasn't even English!

Rather then go on and on, I will just say that the Orange Institution should be one of those illegal organisations like the Ku Klux Klan. Extreme view?

If Orange Institution is celebrating past events, I think it is absolutely OK.
If Orange Institution is offending other, regardless of nation, religion, etc…

Incitement to ethnic or racial hatred - “Under the Law of the United Kingdom, "incitement to racial hatred" was established as an offence by the provisions of §§ 17-29 of the Public Order Act 1986. It was first established as a criminal offence in the Race Relations Act 1976. The Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 made publication of material that incited racial hatred an arrestable offence.”


WIKI - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incitement_to_ethnic_or_racial_hatred#United_Kingdom

Your freedom ends where my privacy start. Simple as that.

kryogen

alastair wrote: »

Nationality is all about cultural allegiance and heritage. Do you have the same difficulty with Canadians not considering themselves American, even though they're on the same continent as the US, and used to be joined at the hip as British colonies?

Kurds consider themselves Kurdish. Regardless of where they are born, it doesn't change the fact that for example a Kurd born in Turkey will be a Turkish Kurd. He/she is Turkish. This does not infringe on the cultural identity they have.

kryogen

TommyPolack wrote: »

If Orange Institution is celebrating past events, I think it is absolutely OK.
If Orange Institution is offending other, regardless of nation, religion, etc…

Incitement to ethnic or racial hatred - “Under the Law of the United Kingdom, "incitement to racial hatred" was established as an offence by the provisions of §§ 17-29 of the Public Order Act 1986. It was first established as a criminal offence in the Race Relations Act 1976. The Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 made publication of material that incited racial hatred an arrestable offence.”


WIKI - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incitement_to_ethnic_or_racial_hatred#United_Kingdom

Your freedom ends where my privacy start. Simple as that.

What kind of past events? Does that extend to any group?

alastair

kryogen wrote: »

Is it not? I thought it was for some reason, it is certainly classed as a hate group, and was surely illegal at one time as being a member got you arrested (at least it did in A Time to Kill )

There have been comparisons made between the KKK and the OO actually, not far off.

I don't discriminate, any group that discriminates and promotes hate should be made illegal

I don't think the KKK was ever illegal.

All religions discriminate - and there's certainly members of many religious groups that promote hate. Should all religions therefore be made illegal? It's just not viable. The OO is unambiguously discriminatory, but how many of it's members actually promote hate - do they all?

Cú Giobach

alastair wrote: »

You've put the cart before the horse. They don't consider themselves not Irish because they're living in the UK - they're more than aware that nationalists in NI consider themselves Irish. NI is part of the UK - that much is obvious to all. Ulstermen consider themselves British rather than Irish - not because they're living in the UK, but because they share a common British heritage.

Try reading what I said.

"I'm not talking about how various sections of that society view themselves, but on the irrational concept that NI is not Ireland because it is in the UK."

I will neither repeat this again nor respond to you if you keep trying to get into an argument about something I am not saying. My comments are in response to this.....

midlandsmissus wrote: »

I lived in Northern Ireland long enough to see that there are many people who consider it to be in no way, shape or form, Ireland.

This is not about being British or Irish but on the fact that (say) Belfast is as much part of Ireland as Cork is.

alastair

kryogen wrote: »

Kurds consider themselves Kurdish. Regardless of where they are born, it doesn't change the fact that for example a Kurd born in Turkey will be a Turkish Kurd. He/she is Turkish. This does not infringe on the cultural identity they have.

If you're born in Belfast, you can opt to get an Irish or a UK passport. If you opt out of the Irish passport, what's actually defining you as Irish? You can justifiably point to your being from Ulster, but beyond that...?

billybudd

alastair wrote: »

Nationality is all about cultural allegiance and heritage. Do you have the same difficulty with Canadians not considering themselves American, even though they're on the same continent as the US, and used to be joined at the hip as British colonies?

That is not true and intersting you should note the US where there is an amazing amount of different heritage and culture from around the world but yet most US people are patriotic to the stars and stripes regardless of their family heritage. American first and everything after second if you like.

kryogen

alastair wrote: »

I don't think the KKK was ever illegal.

All religions discriminate - and there's certainly members of many religious groups that promote hate. Should all religions therefore be made illegal? It's just not viable. The OO is unambiguously discriminatory, but how many of it's members actually promote hate - do they all?

That's not really the point though, it is likely that not all members of the Nazi party promoted hate yet that is what the ideals of the party was essentially.

Also, The Orange Order is not a religion so I don't see the relevance?

It is an organisation.

billybudd

alastair wrote: »

If you're born in Belfast, you can opt to get an Irish or a UK passport. If you opt out of the Irish passport, what's actually defining you as Irish? You can justifiably point to your being from Ulster, but beyond that...?

The passport will say the united kingdom of great Britain & northern Ireland.

alastair

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Try reading what I said. This is not about being British or Irish but on the fact that (say) Belfast is as much part of Ireland as Cork is.

Let me ease your confusion. It's a different country. Has been for quite a few years now.

Cú Giobach

billybudd wrote: »

It is under the UK jurisdiction but resides on Irish soil. Most normal people in N.I will consider themselves Northern Irish.

Good for them but that has nothing to do with my point.

kryogen

alastair wrote: »

If you're born in Belfast, you can opt to get an Irish or a UK passport. If you opt out of the Irish passport, what's actually defining you as Irish? You can justifiably point to your being from Ulster, but beyond that...?

What defines you as being Irish is the fact that you were born on the island of Ireland. Nothing to do with the Republic of Ireland or the Uk. Simply the land where you were born.

Beyond that it doesn't require anything further tbh.

alastair

billybudd wrote: »

The passport will say the united kingdom of great Britain & northern Ireland.

Yep. Northern Ireland - which is unarguably a different place to that other Ireland.

alastair

kryogen wrote: »

What defines you as being Irish is the fact that you were born on the island of Ireland. Nothing to do with the Republic of Ireland or the Uk. Simply the land where you were born.

Beyond that it doesn't require anything further tbh.

What if you were born on the island of Hispaniola? What would that make you?

kryogen

alastair wrote: »

Let me ease your confusion. It's a different country. Has been for quite a few years now.

Yes, Belfast is part of Northern Ireland, part of the United Kingdom, located in Ireland.

billybudd

alastair wrote: »

Let me ease your confusion. It's a different country. Has been for quite a few years now.

And this has got what to do with bigoty?

Jimoslimos

alastair wrote: »

If you're born in Belfast, you can opt to get an Irish or a UK passport. If you opt out of the Irish passport, what's actually defining you as Irish? You can justifiably point to your being from Ulster, but beyond that...?

Define Irishness for me please?