Looking for cost of building a house in 2012/2013

sheff the ref

sheff the ref wrote: »

Which means that there will be a surge of houses commencing by the end of February!!

Wouldnt be 100% sure on that, because this new rule only came to light of late, and a lot of people I know that were considering building hadnt gone about getting the planning.

joeirish

I know that the thread title says costs for 2012/2013 but hopefully this can now be extended to costs for 2014 or do we need another thread.

Anyway here is my question. When comparing costs of different build methods has anybody got up to date information on the relative costs for timber frame, wide cavity or single leaf concrete block with external wall insulation. I am considering each of these at the moment and although the timber frame quotations have a lot of detail I am still trying to get an idea of what the other build methods would cost for the same type of spec.

kkelliher

joeirish wrote: »

I know that the thread title says costs for 2012/2013 but hopefully this can now be extended to costs for 2014 or do we need another thread.

Anyway here is my question. When comparing costs of different build methods has anybody got up to date information on the relative costs for timber frame, wide cavity or single leaf concrete block with external wall insulation. I am considering each of these at the moment and although the timber frame quotations have a lot of detail I am still trying to get an idea of what the other build methods would cost for the same type of spec.

Standard cavity blockwork wall will always be the cheapest method (not always the best however from insulation etc perspective and assuming standard plaster) followed by timber (cost of timber is rising all the time with manufacturing rates now at the same cost as we used be able to buy timber) followed by external insulation to blockwork. The latter has the same quantity of blocks as the first but you then have the external insulation system.

Cost should not always be the main consideration as you need to take wall thickness, insulation, finish, sound etc into account

BryanF

kkelliher wrote: »

Cost should not always be the main consideration as you need to take wall thickness, insulation, finish, sound etc into account

totally agree and would suggest the following considerations also

• site exposure,
• site constraints/location
• design type/ detailing suitable
• program
• experience of builder
• maintenance/longevity
• environmental
• install health & safety

joeirish

Hi guys

Thanks again for the helpful replies. Although I am currently focused just on budget I realise that other factors come into play. I was just trying to find out (if all other things are more or less equal) which build method was most cost effective at the point in time.

So to consider other aspect, we are looking at external wall u value of in or around 0.2, roof around 0.15 (but that will be the same however the walls are built, I think?) and foundations/floor of around 0.1. We have windows and external doors already sorted. We have also considered airtightness and anything around 1ACH would be fine with us.

The sound issue (internally, as we live in a very quiet rural area anyway) is something that has concerned us regarding timber frame and it would seem that block partition walls are better.

Our site is not too exposed but is on a hill and after today's winds here in Clare this could be an important consideration!

The other considerations from BryanF are also things we have thought about and as a neighbour a couple of fields away is just completing his wide cavity house we know there is expertise in the area among local builders.

I just now have to get the price of the insulation (rigid or beads, what do you suggest) to finalise the prices. Or have I missed some other potential costs for wide cavity (e.g. I just remembered yesterday that with the TF the first floor was included but not with block built, things like that)

BryanF

joeirish wrote: »

Hi guys

Thanks again for the helpful replies. Although I am currently focused just on budget I realise that other factors come into play. I was just trying to find out (if all other things are more or less equal) which build method was most cost effective at the point in time.

So to consider other aspect, we are looking at external wall u value of in or around 0.2, roof around 0.15 (but that will be the same however the walls are built, I think?) and foundations/floor of around 0.1. We have windows and external doors already sorted. We have also considered airtightness and anything around 1ACH would be fine with us.

The sound issue (internally, as we live in a very quiet rural area anyway) is something that has concerned us regarding timber frame and it would seem that block partition walls are better.

Our site is not too exposed but is on a hill and after today's winds here in Clare this could be an important consideration!

The other considerations from BryanF are also things we have thought about and as a neighbour a couple of fields away is just completing his wide cavity house we know there is expertise in the area among local builders.

I just now have to get the price of the insulation (rigid or beads, what do you suggest) to finalise the prices. Or have I missed some other potential costs for wide cavity (e.g. I just remembered yesterday that with the TF the first floor was included but not with block built, things like that)

Have you got detailed drawings of all the major junctions?

joeirish

Not got detailed drawings yet. But there are some great documents on the DoE website. And I'll seeing an engineer in the next few days. Have you something specific in mind?

Dai John

Was shown a house being built in Northern France by an Irishman for his own use. He used hollow concrete blocks , external render but inside faced polysytrene insulation sheets (like Kingspan) on a breathable membrane faced with a thick plasterboard, the joints were taped and then painted with textured paint. The blocks were 500x250x250 mm.It made for a fast build and fairly cheap and I would have thought well insulated, question is how would that fare with planning here ?

BryanF

joeirish wrote: »

Not got detailed drawings yet. But there are some great documents on the DoE website. And I'll seeing an engineer in the next few days. Have you something specific in mind?

As a self-builder, unless your willing to do a lot of your own research: Without detailed design help, I fear you will leave loads of holes in any costing.. That's why I ask. The DOE drawings lack clarity in thermal bridging, I wouldn't be saying their 'great' by any means.

joeirish

BryanF wrote: »

As a self-builder, unless your willing to do a lot of your own research: Without detailed design help, I fear you will leave loads of holes in any costing.. That's why I ask. The DOE drawings lack clarity in thermal bridging, I wouldn't be saying their 'great' by any means.

Thanks BryanF

Yes I realise the pitfalls and I am trying to avoid them. That was why I asked somewhere for recommended builders in the Clare area. There does seem to be a lot of information online about the cold bridge problems and solutions just a case of ensuring my builder can implement these. But again, if anybody has suggestions of contractors (I have one recommendation for a block layer at the moment who seems to be up to the mark in terms of building a wide cavity without cold bridges, dropped mortar etc) but I may need others also.

BryanF

Looking for recommendations post here in provided format thanks http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056682402&page=11

dizzymiss

I've just spent the last hour or so reading through this thread. An interesting read.

We have started looking into the possibility of building. I understand the new regulations are coming into effect from next month and the likelihood is we would look at a contractor doing the job for us.

We have been approved in principle for a mortgage of €220K.

We have detailed plans for a 2 storey house measuring 2300sq ft (can reduce sq footage if needed and keep layout) and ideally would like it to be finished to an inhabitable level (kitchen/utility fitted, bathroom, living space, bedroom), we have the rest of our lives to finish the rest. We are not extravagant and would be happy with these finishings being standard to mid range spec. Anywho, do those of you in the know, do you imagine that it would achievable to get this done on the budget I've outlined above???

Thanks in advance.

galwaytt

joeirish wrote: »

Hi guys

Thanks again for the helpful replies. Although I am currently focused just on budget I realise that other factors come into play. I was just trying to find out (if all other things are more or less equal) which build method was most cost effective at the point in time.

So to consider other aspect, we are looking at external wall u value of in or around 0.2, roof around 0.15 (but that will be the same however the walls are built, I think?) and foundations/floor of around 0.1. We have windows and external doors already sorted. We have also considered airtightness and anything around 1ACH would be fine with us.

The sound issue (internally, as we live in a very quiet rural area anyway) is something that has concerned us regarding timber frame and it would seem that block partition walls are better.

Our site is not too exposed but is on a hill and after today's winds here in Clare this could be an important consideration!

The other considerations from BryanF are also things we have thought about and as a neighbour a couple of fields away is just completing his wide cavity house we know there is expertise in the area among local builders.

I just now have to get the price of the insulation (rigid or beads, what do you suggest) to finalise the prices. Or have I missed some other potential costs for wide cavity (e.g. I just remembered yesterday that with the TF the first floor was included but not with block built, things like that)

I would disagree about the sound issue and TF. It's down to the quality of the one you buy. I have seen sound tests for Party Wall in TF and done correctly are very quiet. Internal noise they can be quieter than conventional build too.

Wind is a non-issue for TF. All systems are required to meet the same wind loading. Lots of TF in your area - including out on the head at Doorus and that's a very windy spot !!

dizzymiss wrote: »

I've just spent the last hour or so reading through this thread. An interesting read.

We have started looking into the possibility of building. I understand the new regulations are coming into effect from next month and the likelihood is we would look at a contractor doing the job for us.

We have been approved in principle for a mortgage of €220K.

We have detailed plans for a 2 storey house measuring 2300sq ft (can reduce sq footage if needed and keep layout) and ideally would like it to be finished to an inhabitable level (kitchen/utility fitted, bathroom, living space, bedroom), we have the rest of our lives to finish the rest. We are not extravagant and would be happy with these finishings being standard to mid range spec. Anywho, do those of you in the know, do you imagine that it would achievable to get this done on the budget I've outlined above???

Thanks in advance.

Honestly, you have a bit of an uphill battle. If the budget is truly capped at 220k, then you have to sacrifice either the quality/BER or reduce the size. I just think that budget is too tight.

joeirish

BryanF wrote: »

As a self-builder, unless your willing to do a lot of your own research: Without detailed design help, I fear you will leave loads of holes in any costing.. That's why I ask. The DOE drawings lack clarity in thermal bridging, I wouldn't be saying their 'great' by any means.

Just found some more great information online on how to deal with issues such as junctions, airtightness, thermal bypass etc. There is a lot of information out there and as long as a builder/contractor is prepared to take instructions from the customer then hopefully my research will help me in my build. At the very least it has enabled me to ask my engineer some specific questions and now I may need another engineer who is more knowledgeable about (or more prepared to consider) modern building technique.

BTW, for anybody who is interested in doing their own research, there are a few of blogs on building to PH standard using wide cavity wall and certainly plenty of products available to ensure the PH standard is met.

UrbanFret

You can do it no problem. I have finished a 1950sq ft dormer including kitchen, bathroom ,utility, e.t.c for €117,500. Ber rating A3. Took me 2 years and a lifetime of grief but i got there and so can you!

UrbanFret

pic

hexosan

UrbanFret wrote: »

You can do it no problem. I have finished a 1950sq ft dormer including kitchen, bathroom ,utility, e.t.c for €117,500. Ber rating A3. Took me 2 years and a lifetime of grief but i got there and so can you!

Can you give a breakdown of your costs, are professional fees included, how much work did you do yourself, is the cost of the site included

UrbanFret

hexosan wrote: »

Can you give a breakdown of your costs, are professional fees included, how much work did you do yourself, is the cost of the site included

The site isn't included. I did some of the digger work myself but that was all.

joeirish

UrbanFret wrote: »

You can do it no problem. I have finished a 1950sq ft dormer including kitchen, bathroom ,utility, e.t.c for €117,500. Ber rating A3. Took me 2 years and a lifetime of grief but i got there and so can you!

Can you PM me, I don't seem to be able to PM you. Thanks.

master of all

Hi guys,
Just browsing the net looking for some info & answers & found this discussion. Very interesting & helpful indeed.

Just want to share with you what I came across when dealing with builders/contractors. They dont listen to you & do what they are used to. If you asked them for specific specs they would tell you 'yeh, yeh' and thats the end of it. Also, you have to mind the workmanship. Before you hire anyone, go & check at least one or two jobs. Beforehand, inform yourself regarding the main requirements for this job being done to highest possible quality.
For the last 12 years came across unbelievably bad workmanship. I wondered often why there is no quality control to follow the building regulations & basic requirements. I see on regular basis bad walls, floors, windows, door frames, timber floors, tiles, plumbing, you name it, done disastrously. Those are like hidden bomb waiting to explode some time down the road, causing only problems.
There should be standards in place to follow & then quality check on each main job done, i.e before fitting the any door the floor levels should be taken correctly & sufficient space allowed for the proposed floor cover; Or before laying any concrete, you should make sure it is not going to be 50 mm difference from one corner to the other.

Hope that helps you a bit
Best of luck with the build!

joeirish

UrbanFret wrote: »

The site isn't included. I did some of the digger work myself but that was all.

I just sent you a PM as it is now working. Not sure what was wrong before.

galwaytt

...just a quick post: I was in UK all last week, and came in to the office today to find a bunch of post/emails etc, as usual.

Included in that pile is a number of notices of price increases, to wit:

EPS/XPS Insulation: +6%
Rough white deal timber: +7%
Polyiso Insulation: +8%
Slates: +3.5%
Sewer pipes, fittings etc : +5 to + 7%
Roofing fittings (those bits excluding slates): +3%

Just fyi.

Handsandtools

joeirish wrote: »

I know that the thread title says costs for 2012/2013 but hopefully this can now be extended to costs for 2014 or do we need another thread.

Anyway here is my question. When comparing costs of different build methods has anybody got up to date information on the relative costs for timber frame, wide cavity or single leaf concrete block with external wall insulation. I am considering each of these at the moment and although the timber frame quotations have a lot of detail I am still trying to get an idea of what the other build methods would cost for the same type of spec.

If anyone have cost compared I'd like to know the outcome.
I'm at the moment calculate 4 different types of walls, hope to get them right soon.

Handsandtools

UrbanFret wrote: »

The site isn't included. I did some of the digger work myself but that was all.

So can You give me m2 of Your external walls, just try to figured out How much You pay for external walls to be built and insulated and what u-value You got for it?

Handsandtools

joeirish wrote: »

Just found some more great information online on how to deal with issues such as junctions, airtightness, thermal bypass etc. There is a lot of information out there and as long as a builder/contractor is prepared to take instructions from the customer then hopefully my research will help me in my build. At the very least it has enabled me to ask my engineer some specific questions and now I may need another engineer who is more knowledgeable about (or more prepared to consider) modern building technique.

BTW, for anybody who is interested in doing their own research, there are a few of blogs on building to PH standard using wide cavity wall and certainly plenty of products available to ensure the PH standard is met.

As I was in Germany to study carpentry and building works and work with company's like KNAUF and ISOVER, I see a lot of mistakes made by builder in Ireland, even in the famous ''HOME BOND'' manual are graphics where I can see a clear cold bridge and place for mold, but by Ireland's standards it's ok.
I like Scandinavian type of construction and advanced materials used, but it will take ages to get that kind of standard to Ireland, because transporting building materials is costly and raise price to high for costumers be interested in, local production- there's one company in Ireland which started it, but quality and U-value is to low compare to price plus no tradesman are trained to work with this kind of new materials. English have they factory but it's far from Scandinavian standards.

BryanF

Handsandtools wrote: »

because transporting building materials is costly and raise price to high for costumers be interested in, local production- there's one company in Ireland which started it, but quality and U-value is to low compare to price plus no tradesman are trained to work with this kind of new materials. English have they factory but it's far from Scandinavian standards.

I don't agree with this.
We simply need clients to pay for design and construction support and involve a builder/ material/ system supplier who get a decent price for a good job done

Handsandtools

BryanF wrote: »

I don't agree with this.
We simply need clients to pay for design and construction support and involve a builder/ material/ system supplier who get a decent price for a good job done

I look at the prices in Dublin and can't believe that old buildings D-rated cost so much, no point for developer to invest in design, if he can make money by just building sheds and fit fancy design furniture in it. Problem here is the costumers, they are not educated about what is important in building and what's not.

master of all

Totally agree with that:

'I look at the prices in Dublin and can't believe that old buildings D-rated cost so much, no point for developer to invest in design, if he can make money by just building sheds and fit fancy design furniture in it. Problem here is the costumers, they are not educated about what is important in building and what's not.'

I just came from a similar project. The home owners there had no clue what is important & what is not in the building. They trusted the builder, which is how it should be in a normal situation, but the builder himself is not that educated, also the specific skills are not there too. Well, the end result is a disaster. And moreover, that's not only one case. Most of the projects I have visited or seen are with very similar problems.

Handsandtools

There's need for training of builders and more education for costumers. It will takes time before quality buildings come Ireland

master of all

Handsandtools wrote: »

There's need for training of builders and more education for costumers. It will takes time before quality buildings come Ireland

I dont know if you noticed in Germany, but after every important stage of the build there is an inspection to verify if the work complies with the regulations.
Haven't seen anything like this here, ever.

Hence, I think, if there is no inspection, there will be no reason to reach for higher standards as the end customer does not really know the difference.

What else is very popular, i noticed, when a builder wins a tender by giving a set price, the drill is to start 'cut corners' in every possible way. Don't think that's the right way to do anything. On the other side, I understand them as they are constantly pushed for low prices.