Why Are Irish Rail Failing so badly

TheDoc

bk wrote: »

Well I would disagree with that. Free wifi and similar projects (e.g. updating the website, updating the online booking system, RTPI, power at every seat, etc.) cost a fraction of infrastructure projects, but add a lot of extra value and help make public transport more attractive, keeping and even gaining customers due to it.

They are the low hanging fruit. The free wifi probably cost less then even 10km of extra track.

It is a no brainer to add free wifi and power at every seat. It is the big expensive infrastructure projects that are much harder to justify.

Things like free wifi, RTPI on buses, leap card, etc. are using relatively cheap technology to make the most of the infrastructure we already have. To make public transport more accessible and easier to use.

The above.

It adds value to a service. Aslong as the cost is not passed onto customers, its a value added extra to entice customers to go with them.

Dublin Bus rolled out their wifi to selected routes in the past few months and the 41x is one of them, unfortunately there is no consistency and its typically random. I have stopped getting Dublin Bus ( I have a €600 annual ticket) and am getting the Swords Express instead.

Financially much more expensive, adding onto the fact I'm not utilising my ticket, I would rather take the hit for the comfort and speed in which the Sword express gets me into town, however if I see a wifi 41x, I hop on board.

Everyone has different things that might make them sway, unfortunately Nationally owned public transport is so far behind the curve. Public transport wifi was in most European capitals six years ago....

Everyone always says private sector transport will never prevail because of the costs and that there is essential services required. Well to be fair, more and more private sector companies are targetting heavy load routes and even specific routes not covered by Dublin Bus/ Irish rail ( Swords to Blanch for example) and are making a killing.

davidlacey

but then begs the question why were the engines bought in the first place? Yes IE were facing an engine shortage at the time but again with no future planning in place this was yet another mess. it is all well and good saying storing them was the best option but why did IE purchase them if most would be sitting idle 15 years later? speaking for 201's which were manufactured in 94/95 which is not exactly ancient stuff and storing them the way IE store most of their old stock will render them useless in a few years in which time they will probably be not needed as the rail freight system will be all gone and there will most likely be no diesel hauled services left. How much did IE have to pay for the 201 Fleet was it money well spent?

foggy_lad

davidlacey wrote: »

but then begs the question why were the engines bought in the first place? Yes IE were facing an engine shortage at the time but again with no future planning in place this was yet another mess. it is all well and good saying storing them was the best option but why did IE purchase them if most would be sitting idle 15 years later? speaking for 201's which were manufactured in 94/95 which is not exactly ancient stuff and storing them the way IE store most of their old stock will render them useless in a few years in which time they will probably be not needed as the rail freight system will be all gone and there will most likely be no diesel hauled services left. How much did IE have to pay for the 201 Fleet was it money well spent?

It was money wasted as they are not suitable for Irish Railways,Why were they bought? Was it someone trying to operate Irish Rail just like the railways on the mainland in the UK? some kind of experiment to see could they work here? someone within Irish Rail with a loco fetish? as nobody within Irish Rail is accountable we will never get answers.

My own thoughts on it are that some nut-job had a vision of 201's hauling mark3 carriages on every line in the country and also being used for freight but they never did any homework or they would have known that these engines are too heavy for many of the lines they were supposed to be working and are wrecking the rails when used at speed.

davidlacey

with the money IE had for many projects why were the rails not adjusted or relaid to cope? id tell you if i was a TD i would have barry kenny up in a committee to explain why IE is operated like it was back in the 20th century

Judgement Day

davidlacey wrote: »

with the money IE had for many projects why were the rails not adjusted or relaid to cope? id tell you if i was a TD i would have barry kenny up in a committee to explain why IE is operated like it was back in the 20th century

Barry Kenny is a nobody in a CIE context - just an overpaid (presumably) spin-doctor. The real people to blame are the useless politicians who have presided over the Dept.of Transport for decades. The current incumbent is no better than his predecessors.

foggy_lad

davidlacey wrote: »

with the money IE had for many projects why were the rails not adjusted or relaid to cope? id tell you if i was a TD i would have barry kenny up in a committee to explain why IE is operated like it was back in the 20th century

Why did nobody in Irish Rail check below the waterline for erosion at Malahide? Irish Rail is not a company it is an old boys club for engineers and jobsworth managers who are not wanted anywhere else! They have made important decisions based on meetings held in car parks, they are not accountable to anyone, they are railwaymen and its their way or the motorway!

davidlacey

foggy_lad wrote: »

davidlacey wrote: »

with the money IE had for many projects why were the rails not adjusted or relaid to cope? id tell you if i was a TD i would have barry kenny up in a committee to explain why IE is operated like it was back in the 20th century

Why did nobody in Irish Rail check below the waterline for erosion at Malahide? Irish Rail is not a company it is an old boys club for engineers and jobsworth managers who are not wanted anywhere else! They have made important decisions based on meetings held in car parks, they are not accountable to anyone, they are railwaymen and its their way or the motorway!

Well then thats the problem more than anything else

bazza1

foggy_lad wrote: »

Why did nobody in Irish Rail check below the waterline for erosion at Malahide? Irish Rail is not a company it is an old boys club for engineers and jobsworth managers who are not wanted anywhere else! They have made important decisions based on meetings held in car parks, they are not accountable to anyone, they are railwaymen and its their way or the motorway!

Foggy...I hope they resurrect the sugar beet industry and try to cure your bitterness!:D
Now I know what our managers are doing in huddles in the car park.
Secret handshakes!
Engineers and the old boys practicing their golf swings.
I see all this from my Eazy-Boy chair whilst I count my millions.

end of the road

foggy_lad wrote: »

so at least we have new efficient clean and comfortable DMU's to serve the network instead of a rail network with knackered old filthy dirty coaches with no or poor heating and no proper air conditioning and no wi-fi or power at seats expected to last for another 30 years

the mark 2s and cravens maybe but the mark 3s were comfortable and still in good condition at the time and could have been kept in service. we would have given anything for them on the rosslare line but it wasn't to be.

foggy_lad wrote: »

As for the engines they were wrong for the network to start and scrapping storing them is the best decision that could be made.

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha ah god seriously, so your saying that scrapping/storing locos bought in 1994/95 aka the 201s is a good decisian? at least the 121/141/181s were life expired when withdrawn and possibly rail freight will be gone by the time the 071s are withdrawn which may be in the next 10 to 15 years if even that. meanwhile if such rail freight should go and loco hauled passenger services become no more which most lightly will happen were stuck with a bunch of 201s in storage which nobody wants. you give out about the waste in irish rail yet you support possibly the biggest amount of waste within the company, the withdrawing/storing of rolling stock that isn't even that old.

davidlacey

is the foggy lad employed by IE?

LeftBlank

foggy_lad wrote: »

On a train to Dublin recently I experienced this where the 4 standard class carriages were dangerously overcrowded yet the diligent staff member stood his ground and blocked anyone from seating themselves in the empty dining car or the empty premium carriage, as it happens there was also no ticket check on that train and the staff menber did not walk the train once from Carlow to Dublin!

So, on the one hand people are not taking the train because they prefer the bus but on the other hand the train is dangerously overcrowded. Which is it?

PS the 22000 DMU have 5 standard + 1 first carriage.

Judgement Day

davidlacey wrote: »

is the foggy lad employed by IE?

I'd say himself and bk are employed by gobus.ie or aircoach. Maybe his mammy wouldn't buy him a trainset when he was little and he's never got over it.

bk

Judgement Day wrote: »

I'd say himself and bk are employed by gobus.ie or aircoach. Maybe his mammy wouldn't buy him a trainset when he was little and he's never got over it.

Stop being so childish.

Of course I don't work for gobus or aircoach. In fact I have never worked for any transport company.

Many people on boards know who I am in real life, it is no secret at all. I work as a software engineer. Easily proven if the mods want confirmation.

Who do you work for JD? Care to prove it?

davidlacey

bk wrote: »

Judgement Day wrote: »

I'd say himself and bk are employed by gobus.ie or aircoach. Maybe his mammy wouldn't buy him a trainset when he was little and he's never got over it.

Stop being so childish.

Of course I don't work for gobus or aircoach. In fact I have never worked for any transport company.

Many people on boards know who I am in real life, it is no secret at all. I work as a software engineer. Easily proven if the mods want confirmation.

Who do you work for JD? Care to prove it?

Ah lads we are getting off the IE failing point now

foggy_lad

end of the road wrote: »

the mark 2s and cravens maybe but the mark 3s were comfortable and still in good condition at the time and could have been kept in service. we would have given anything for them on the rosslare line but it wasn't to be.

Once the 22000's started arriving the old knackered mark3 carriages were surplus to requirements and there was nowhere they could have been used considering all the modifications required to keep them in service.

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha ah god seriously, so your saying that scrapping/storing locos bought in 1994/95 aka the 201s is a good decisian? at least the 121/141/181s were life expired when withdrawn and possibly rail freight will be gone by the time the 071s are withdrawn which may be in the next 10 to 15 years if even that. meanwhile if such rail freight should go and loco hauled passenger services become no more which most lightly will happen were stuck with a bunch of 201s in storage which nobody wants. you give out about the waste in irish rail yet you support possibly the biggest amount of waste within the company, the withdrawing/storing of rolling stock that isn't even that old.

the 201's are not suitable for Irish Railway conditions yet they were bought by some people in Irish Rail because??? were there secret payments or contracts awarded to friends or family etc? Why were these lemons bought and why is nobody being sacked now over the waste?

LeftBlank wrote: »

So, on the one hand people are not taking the train because they prefer the bus but on the other hand the train is dangerously overcrowded. Which is it?

PS the 22000 DMU have 5 standard + 1 first carriage.

some services are dangerously overcrowded and losing two carriages of a 6 car set doesn't help, 1 premier carriage and the dining car which has a number of seats that can only be used by premier passengers.

Judgement Day wrote: »

I'd say himself and bk are employed by gobus.ie or aircoach. Maybe his mammy wouldn't buy him a trainset when he was little and he's never got over it.

I had a great train set which spewed out smoke as well as steam and made realistic steam train sounds:D

LeftBlank

foggy_lad wrote: »

some services are dangerously overcrowded and losing two carriages of a 6 car set doesn't help, 1 premier carriage and the dining car which has a number of seats that can only be used by premier passengers.

The only trains left with a dining car are the Mark IVs and even they are not reserved for premier only class. The 22000s don't have a dedicated dining car, the shop is in the same car as premier but is accessible to all.

end of the road

foggy_lad wrote: »

Once the 22000's started arriving the old knackered mark3 carriages were surplus to requirements and there was nowhere they could have been used considering all the modifications required to keep them in service.

they were not knackered, and thats the end of it, they were lovely comfortable carriges.

foggy_lad wrote: »

the 201's are not suitable for Irish Railway conditions

no their not but thats no excuse to scrap them.

foggy_lad wrote: »

yet they were bought by some people in Irish Rail because???

i don't know but i imagine at the time it was for a number of reasons such as.
1. at the time passenger services apart from the dart and the arrow were operated by loco hauled carriges and their wasn't plans to move to DMU operation on intercity and regional routes at least not in the forseeable future or at all possibly.
2. the a-class locos were either due to be, were being, or were allready retired,, they didn't forsee the decline in rail freight, they didn't think that by the time the 121/141/181s were retired that they had more then enough locos to cover what they were needed for meaning a sirplus of locos.

foggy_lad wrote: »

Why were these lemons bought and why is nobody being sacked now over the waste?

no they shouldn't have been bought or at least not as many of them but they were and thats it. nobody will be sacked over it.

foggy_lad

LeftBlank wrote: »

The only trains left with a dining car are the Mark IVs and even they are not reserved for premier only class. The 22000s don't have a dedicated dining car, the shop is in the same car as premier but is accessible to all.

the trains i was on had a full premier carriage plus half a carriage of seating for diners and the shop/kitchen

foggy_lad

end of the road wrote: »

they were not knackered, and thats the end of it, they were lovely comfortable carriges.

Dirty grubby old worn out carriages which the cest of irish rail maintenance had made even worse by buggering up the lights and heating and public address system.

no their not but thats no excuse to scrap them.

<snip>

no they shouldn't have been bought or at least not as many of them but they were and thats it. nobody will be sacked over it.

They were bought and it was deemed more economical to store tham rather than pay the price of allowing them destroy miles of rail faster than it was being repaired!

368100

I used to travel by train from Dundalk to Dublin 5 days a week. Now I use Matthews coaches because:

Cheaper - by over €50 a month
Quicker - 7am bus gets to my stop at around 8.05, 7.13 train used to get to same area at 8.45. Train stops at lots of stations, bus is direct.
Quieter - trains 3 years ago were noisy with the beep beep of doors and noisy engines - bus is a lot quieter and most people are commuting and sleep so there's not even any talking
More reliable- have never had a breakdown on the bus, on the train I remember 3 occasions sitting for well over an hour between stations where another train had broken down ahead of the one I was on. Too many examples of delays under an hour to count.

The only service Irish rail offered that was in any way comparable was the enterprise to Belfast, but it wasn't timed to suit commuters but I guess that is intentional.

If the train was able to compete with the above I would consider using it again, a lot from Dundalk moved to bus when the viaduct collapsed at malahide and unfortunately for Irish rail, the bus service was just simply too good compared to the train to switch back for the majority of commuters.

Hungerford

foggy_lad wrote: »

the 201's are not suitable for Irish Railway conditions yet they were bought by some people in Irish Rail because??? were there secret payments or contracts awarded to friends or family etc? Why were these lemons bought and why is nobody being sacked now over the waste?

There's actually nothing fundamentally wrong with the 201 class. Close cousins of the class are used through Europe and the US on passenger and freight services.

The main issues are primarily down to Irish Rail. The HEP issue was anticipated by the manufacturers but Irish Rail insisted on the system that the class was ultimately fitted with to save money.

The issue with track wear and route availability is down to the fact that Irish Rail's permanent way isn't up to European standards. Irish Rail have traditionally used UIC-54 rail, which weighs 54kg/m, compared with the heavier UIC-60 (60kg/m) prevalent elsewhere (even Iraqi railways uses UIC-60). The reason appears to be that UIC-54 is cheaper.

miller50841

Any real ideas on how improvements could be made as other poster said was getting way off topic.

Saw a steam engine on the bray line yesterday flying along.
It was deadly to see something only ever see on tv to be honest.

Was wondering would it not be good to keep lets say 2 of each model that they retire so can be kept on for special days out, tours and the like.

Always thought the same for buses and that always wondered why the old open top buses especially the dublin milenium 1 wasn't kept

davidlacey

I dont see why the mark 3s cannot be used when we have terrible looking commuters hoofing and puffing their way around ireland and not comfortable at all

Jamie2k9

The issue with track wear and route availability is down to the fact that Irish Rail's permanent way isn't up to European standards. Irish Rail have traditionally used UIC-54 rail, which weighs 54kg/m, compared with the heavier UIC-60 (60kg/m) prevalent elsewhere (even Iraqi railways uses UIC-60). The reason appears to be that UIC-54 is cheaper.

The whole Heuston-Cork line is now 60kg/m and as far as I know any new track being put down is 60kg/m.

I dont see why the mark 3s cannot be used when we have terrible looking commuters hoofing and puffing their way around ireland and not comfortable at all

They can but find the money to bring them up to standred and the special requirments.

yer man!

kieran4003 wrote: »

A trial Dublin - Galway train has taken 1:55. Similar improvements will be made here.

I would definitely use that if it came into proper service. That's 35 minutes faster than the fastest bus to Dublin city from Galway.

miller50841

yer man! wrote: »

I would definitely use that if it came into proper service. That's 35 minutes faster than the fastest bus to Dublin city from Galway.

Thats whats needed also much safer then our roads and idiots on them

newmug

Judgement Day wrote: »

Barry Kenny is a nobody in a CIE context - just an overpaid (presumably) spin-doctor. The real people to blame are the useless politicians who have presided over the Dept.of Transport for decades. The current incumbent is no better than his predecessors.

Nail, head, hammer. Want to hear a little story? RIGHT!

Well, as we all know, since Charlie Haughey's days FF were a group of nest-feathering ba$tards who did absolutely anything to get their hands on money. Our last minister for transport was Noel Dempsey. He is from Trim, in co. Meath. 20 years ago, he promised, no, swore blind, that Navan would have passenger rail service to Dublin within 10 years. This is all verifyable, it was in local papers etc. at the time, so I'm not liabeling Boards.

Now Trim and Navan have excellent bus services. If you take a 53 seater coach for example, at least 10 come and go (from Trim alone) to Dublin every day. They're always full, and you have private buses taking advantage of the rich pickings from this route aswell. Compared to a DMU unit, its pretty clear that a passenger rail service from the even bigger town of Navan would be at the very least viable, if not profitable.

Boom times came, and the bould Noel was minister for transport. Did he keep his promise? Feck no. Instead, he built no less than 3, yes 3, dual carraigeways through the rural heartland of Ireland that is county Meath. Why, you might ask? Well this is where the FF genius for extracting money comes into play.

You see, a crowd called Raymond Potterton auctioneers procured the contract for doing the buying-up of land for the motorways. They recieved a percentage fee for every bit of land compulsorily purchased bought. That must have been a disgusting amount of money. Now, who worked in Potterton's, only Noel's son-in-law, FF councillor Ronan McKenna. Fancy that, Noel's daughter married to a FF gombeen with ties to a company procuring lands at a nice fee, controlled by the minister for transport, who happened to be, er, Noel.

All of the above is true and verifiable.

You see, it takes far more acreage to build a motorway than it does a railway. And whatever about pulling off a tolled dual-carraigeway to Virginia of all places, 3 brand new railway lines probably wouldn't have washed.

Noel did do one thing for rail travel in Ireland though, so at least he cant be accused of not trying to keep his promise:rolleyes:. He built the M3 parkway......... AFTER the toll bridge.

Add to that, if one studies the routes taken, these motorways seem to snake aimlessly some of the time, pointlessly hug the existing old roads at other times, yet plough through priceless archealogoical heritage sites other times. Rumour has it (note I said rumour, the following is not verifiable and I dont claim it to be true, you can make up your own mind) that most of the land was owned by FF people, and they were "accomadated" by having the motorway routed through their land, for that age-old lust of FF's, money.

As I said, that last bit is only rumour. But the route sure looks pretty random to me. Either way, Meathman Noel Dempsey killed off any hope of proper passenger rail sevices in Meath.

davidlacey

yer man! wrote: »

kieran4003 wrote: »

A trial Dublin - Galway train has taken 1:55. Similar improvements will be made here.

I would definitely use that if it came into proper service. That's 35 minutes faster than the fastest bus to Dublin city from Galway.

I think a more pressing issue is how many years do the die detrich( i know spelt wrong) carriages have left in them?

yer man!

davidlacey wrote: »

I think a more pressing issue is how many years do the die detrich( i know spelt wrong) carriages have left in them?

I've only ever seen 22000's on this line for the past 2 years anyway.

davidlacey

yer man! wrote: »

davidlacey wrote: »

I think a more pressing issue is how many years do the die detrich( i know spelt wrong) carriages have left in them?

I've only ever seen 22000's on this line for the past 2 years anyway.

I mean the belfast one