Anti-women threads in AH

Ficheall

Piste wrote: »

That's the thing, it's never just "a" poster, it's a very vocal minority that come out of the woodwork and speak about women as if they were just a bit of sh!t on their shoe. When several AH posters say all Irish women are X,Y Z (or even say "some", but the thread descends into talking about "Irish Women" as some sort of monstrous, homogenous group) then it makes them look like absolute idiots, but when there are so many of them surely it's a view worth challenging through threads like this so they can see their viewpoint is not acceptable.

One of the lessons the internet has taught me is that if someone is not worth arguing with, then they are not worth arguing with.
It may seem something of a tautology, but it's true.

Double tautology intended.

Here, have a watch of this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEQouX5U0fc

Then pretend that it matters a toss if someone on AH thinks all Irish women are fat and ugly.

If I took offence at every idiotic or repetitive thing I came across on the internet, well... then I would be very offended indeed.

Miss Lockhart

Daveysil15 wrote: »

That's just it though. It's a minority. There's also a small minority of female posters who have made some bad and condescending remarks about men. Irish men have also been put into a certain group on a few occasions too. Neither gender is perfect!

What's with the what-aboutery? If you feel there's a problem with anti-man or anti-Irish man posting in AH then make a thread about it.

Nodin

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

What's with the what-aboutery? If you feel there's a problem with anti-man or anti-Irish man posting in AH then make a thread about it.

What about - mad idea this - using the report function?

efb

Abdul Abulbul Amir wrote: »

Yeah. Look, I can tell you what that'll turn into, it'll be used as an excuse for hypersensitivity, so that anything negative said about any woman for any reason is decried as sexism. How about you just deal with it instead of demanding that everyone else change for your benefit?

I am not a woman- its not for my benefit. But I'm not going to stand by and let casual attacks on women be allowed 'for da Lolz' and 'banter'

Miss Lockhart

Ficheall wrote: »

One of the lessons the internet has taught me is that if someone is not worth arguing with, then they are not worth arguing with.
It may seem something of a tautology, but it's true.

Double tautology intended.

Here, have a watch of this

Then pretend that it matters a toss if someone on AH thinks all Irish women are fat and ugly.

If I took offence at every idiotic or repetitive thing I came across on the internet, well... then I would be very offended indeed.

That's all very nice and philosophical and all, but we're not talking about the whole internet. We're talking about AH - in AH. Where racism is never ok, but sexism often is.

Piste

Ficheall wrote: »

One of the lessons the internet has taught me is that if someone is not worth arguing with, then they are not worth arguing with.
It may seem something of a tautology, but it's true.

Double tautology intended.

Here, have a watch of this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEQouX5U0fc

Then pretend that it matters a toss if someone on AH thinks all Irish women are fat and ugly.

If I took offence at every idiotic or repetitive thing I came across on the internet, well... then I would be very offended indeed.

I've long since learned some people are not worth arguing with. However this doesn't mean you shouldn't. So what if you wont change a particular poster's mind? By people voicing their dissatisfaction it lets the entire forum know that such posts are views unfavourably and you target those people, not necessarily each particular poster that posts a mysogynistic comment.

Daveysil15

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

What's with the what-aboutery? If you feel there's a problem with anti-man or anti-Irish man posting in AH then make a thread about it.

Where's the what-aboutery? No I don't have a problem with it. I don't let it bother me. Besides, the thread has already been done.

Abdul Abulbul Amir

efb wrote: »

I am not a woman- its not for my benefit. But I'm not going to stand by and let casual attacks on women be allowed 'for da Lolz' and 'banter'

I don't care what you are, you're demanding that everyone else change to suit you. No.

Piste

Why is demanding that AH posters show a bit of respect that big of an ask? Like if it's really THAT hard to do then the problem's not with us, it's with you.

Ficheall

Piste wrote: »

I've long since learned some people are not worth arguing with. However this doesn't mean you shouldn't. So what if you wont change a particular poster's mind? By people voicing their dissatisfaction it lets the entire forum know that such posts are views unfavourably and you target those people, not necessarily each particular poster that posts a mysogynistic comment.

And how many people do you think are now more "informed" after this 40-page thread? I'm pretty sure that everyone knows that there are some dickish posters on AH.

Piste

I'd say there are some people who didn't realise how bothersome a lot of people find those comments, I'd say this thread has possibly opened up a few eyes.

Tombi!

Right, read through all the pages I missed after last's night joking around.
Firstly:
Abdul Abulbul Amir shut up. Please, just stop.
Regardless of EFB speaking generally (that free speech should not include sexism) or in AH that sexism should be banned it doesn't matter. You don't have free speech on a website. So if they decide to ban it, guess you're going away because of all the hyper-sensitivity?

I think what Sala said was both fine and fairly accurate.
Let's face it: there are far more men on the internet than women.
So men have a large number of members to reperasent them by.

You can wager at least a few of them are complete eejits who's experiences with women range from "mammy will ye do me a dinner" to the cassanovas of "saw this ride of a bird in the club and got me hole, bleedin' deadly".

It wasn't sexist. s/he said something that isn't offensive. They said "some men". Now maybe the men who have little to no expierence with treating women like people might get offended. But I don't think anyone really cares about them. Just like nobody cares about the over-the-top women who find fault with everything a man does and screams sexist at the slightest of issues.

Now that we know the difference between male and female muppets with sexist comments, try not to get offended by either one

The thing with banter is some people might get offended by it and using a smiley (yes even this fecker:pac:) isn't a reason to dish out whatever issue you have. The "contreversial opinions" thread has a clear mod note: if it's too contreversial don't post it. Now when I saw that I honestly wanted to see "I think women all belong in the kitchen ". Why? Because it would have been funny. I don't think it would have been made in any serious tone. I think it would have been a nice post that clearly was made in jest to get a few laughs.

I think a lot of people are forgetting AH is funny.
It has been since I started lurking it back in 2004 maybe.
Some people have a "bad" sense of humour. A lot of people find rape jokes to be of a bad nature. I do and I don't. It depends on who tells them, how they're told and who they're told to.
But some posters in here (smilies or not) are bordering on "I'll pretend to be funny to say something I know would get me in trouble".

But then you have the people who DO have issues with women/unemployed/race/etc. And here's where the problem comes in. It's not me posting something in a thread with the intenetion of making people laugh. Sometimes it's downright malicious.

Take the "you on your monthlies" comment. Imagine if the OP wasn't Irish. She was... Polish! So OP posts and asks "how come I see a lot of people don't like Polish people in Ireland". And she quotes a few examples.
And then someone quotes all her first post and says "you must be Polish, all you do is take our jobs".
Funny, sort of. But still really offensive. Would there have been a much better thread to say a joke like that in when it would be more of a joke and less of "being a dick"? Of course there is.

I honestly do think that some people feel AH is almost a free-for-all but with rules against racism and direct personal abuse. At least that's what it feels like at times. Maybe it'll change, maybe it won't.

But yeah the next little bit is my own experiences with being a mod on other sites so take it all with a pinch of salt:
What won't ever change even with the help of the mods or rule changes or anything is that some people think it's okay to be muppets and post their "lol womenz go in kitchen" or "I'm irish, the polish takes our jobs" attitudes.
At least not if you don't report them. Mods can only delete what's reported (I know not right but I'm just speaking generally). How the Hell are they supposed to know that 10 users got offended by a post if they don't report it?

Honestly, if you feel like someone is acting like an idiot and should have a post removed/warned/whatever, report it. Don't reply because that'll look like "oh you wanted to say something back AND report it". You can't have your cake and eat it at the same time. Either you report it or you make a smart comment back. If you view it as a banter with a bit of offensive and reply in the same manner, thats what it is. If you report it and reply seriously (in the interested of making the post see the reality) then it's that.

It's never both so just report the damn things and explain why.

After all what's better: getting a sexist/racist/muppet shut up permantly or getting to argue with them while they just make more jokes at your expense.

efb

Abdul Abulbul Amir wrote: »

I don't care what you are, you're demanding that everyone else change to suit you. No.

It's not to suit me. That argument could be used against any proposed change and it's not very plausible.

Seren_

Nodin wrote: »

If you didn't read them, how did you know they were worth reporting?

I meant I don't usually read past more than the first few posts if I see it's going to turn into a thread like that. I haven't reported the OPs or whatever because I could 100% guarantee that nothing would be done about it. Just look at this thread for an example of mods/admins showing interest in what we think about the sexism on here. (not tarring all of the AH mods with this brush obviously). I accept that they may be working out what to do privately of course.

Before anyone says it, yes I'm aware that not reporting the posts even if I think nothing gets done is stupid.

Abdul Abulbul Amir

Piste wrote: »

Why is demanding that AH posters show a bit of respect that big of an ask? Like if it's really THAT hard to do then the problem's not with us, it's with you.

Because it's something that would be enforced. You aren't asking, you're telling. I get it, this stuff is rude and crass, but I don't agree with forcing people to stop through the moderators. People should have some space where they can be rude and crass. I personally have no problem with not pronouncing all the women of the country fat ugly harpies, that's not my position here. If the threads are to die it should be through the membership of the forum not thinking it's acceptable and pouring ridicule on the posters. Or just ignoring them, either way works.

Micky Dolenz

Your Text Here wrote: »

I meant I don't usually read past more than the first few posts if I see it's going to turn into a thread like that. I haven't reported the OPs or whatever because I could 100% guarantee that nothing would be done about it. .

That is 100% a cop out.

Tombi!

Abdul Abulbul Amir wrote: »

Because it's something that would be enforced. You aren't asking, you're telling. I get it, this stuff is rude and crass, but I don't agree with forcing people to stop through the moderators. People should have some space where they can be rude and crass. I personally have no problem with not pronouncing all the women of the country fat ugly harpies, that's not my position here. If the threads are to die it should be through the membership of the forum not thinking it's acceptable and pouring ridicule on the posters. Or just ignoring them, either way works.

We already have the Thunderdome.

Piste

I explicitly said I didn't particularly want censorship, I want these comments not to be made in the first place. I think the best way to stop people making these comments is to show them they're not acceptable, by discussing it in threads like this and by calling people out on their behaviour in-thread.

Seren_

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

That is 100% a cop out.

I know, I already edited my post to say that. It seemed like a sensible thing to me at the time anyway, although it doesn't now.

Ficheall

Piste wrote: »

I explicitly said I didn't particularly want censorship, I want these comments not to be made in the first place.

Technically, that is censorship.

Abdul Abulbul Amir

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

Right, read through all the pages I missed after last's night joking around.
Firstly:
Abdul Abulbul Amir shut up. Please, just stop.
Regardless of EFB speaking generally (that free speech should not include sexism) or in AH that sexism should be banned it doesn't matter. You don't have free speech on a website. So if they decide to ban it, guess you're going away because of all the hyper-sensitivity?

Don't tell me to shut up man, I may not be able to use personal abuse around here, but you just use your imagination.

Tombi!

Ficheall wrote: »

Technically, that is censorship.

And technically you have no free speech so it's perfectly fine for Piste to request.

Though I think he means it as a "I don't want people to post stuff that's offensive" rather than "this topic is not allowed".

Abdul Abulbul Amir wrote: »

Don't tell me to shut up man, I may not be able to use personal abuse around here, but you just use your imagination.

Well at least you know you don't have free speech :pac:

Abdul Abulbul Amir

Ficheall wrote: »

Technically, that is censorship.

I have to disagree, actually that's a perfectly reasonable thing to want.

Edit: Assuming of course that it's voluntary. However, that isn't the position of most of the women in this thread, unless I'm misunderstanding them.

Nodin

Your Text Here wrote: »

I meant I don't usually read past more than the first few posts if I see it's going to turn into a thread like that. I haven't reported the OPs or whatever because I could 100% guarantee that nothing would be done about it. Just look at this thread for an example of mods/admins showing interest in what we think about the sexism on here. (not tarring all of the AH mods with this brush obviously). I accept that they may be working out what to do privately of course.

Before anyone says it, yes I'm aware that not reporting the posts even if I think nothing gets done is stupid.

You don't report posts because you can "100% guarantee" nothing would be done, even though you don't report them.......

Why is it everytime these specific allegations get a light shone on them they seem to dissappear?

Daveysil15

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

Abdul Abulbul Amir shut up. Please, just stop.

Is this not an example of free speech?

Abi

Abdul Abulbul Amir wrote: »

Because it's something that would be enforced. You aren't asking, you're telling. I get it, this stuff is rude and crass, but I don't agree with forcing people to stop through the moderators.

This is the bit that disheartens me, because you wouldn't mind if the thread got through to a few at least. What you've said above is closer to the truth. In order for woman bashing to be toned down a bit in the forum, the same díckheads have to be held by the hands of the moderators and given a little slap on the wrist when they've over done it again.


Imagine how sad it would be if the mods had to add to the charter that boys and girls ought to be less disrespectful to one another. It's like a fúcking playground.

Tombi!

Daveysil15 wrote: »

Is this not an example of free speech?

No. Okay, maybe I'll get a warning for the shut up. Maybe not. I dunno.

But free speech doesn't exist on a private website, ever.

Case in point if I call you an idiot, I (ideally) get some punishment because that isn't allowed. So it's still not free speech we have here.

Ficheall

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

And technically you have no free speech so it's perfectly fine for Piste to request.

Though I think he means it as a "I don't want people to post stuff that's offensive" rather than "this topic is not allowed".

I never mentioned "free speech". I think that "free speech" is a bull**** shield to hide behind.
And I get what Piste meant. I also agree with it. It's still censorship though.

If we're talking about what we'd ideally like the posts in AH to be like though, I'd like more pics of attractive female redheads, funnier posts, chess puzzles, and youtube links to really good fingerstyle guitarists.

Tombi!

Ficheall wrote: »

I never mentioned "free speech". I think that "free speech" is a bull**** shield to hide behind.
And I get what Piste meant. I also agree with it. It's still censorship though.

If we're talking about what we'd ideally like the posts in AH to be like though, I'd like more pics of attractive female redheads, funnier posts, chess puzzles, and youtube links to really good fingerstyle guitarists.

My point was they can still censor what they like.

It's not going to go over the top. If it was it'd be brought in as a site wide rule.

efb

Ficheall wrote: »

I never mentioned "free speech". I think that "free speech" is a bull**** shield to hide behind.
And I get what Piste meant. I also agree with it. It's still censorship though.

If we're talking about what we'd ideally like the posts in AH to be like though, I'd like more pics of attractive female redheads, funnier posts, chess puzzles, and youtube links to really good fingerstyle guitarists.

There's a sub forum for each of those!

Tombi!

efb wrote: »

There's a sub forum for each of those!

Erm... could I perhaps have a link to the attractive red-head forum please?

Ficheall

efb wrote: »

There's a sub forum for each of those!

So there being a subforum renders my desire for such posts invalid? There's a Ladies Lounge, if it comes to that...

Abi

Ficheall wrote: »

If we're talking about what we'd ideally like the posts in AH to be like though, I'd like more pics of attractive female redheads, funnier posts, chess puzzles, and youtube links to really good fingerstyle guitarists.

Would you like some jam on that too sir? :pac:


I used to come back time and time again to AH, because it was a laugh a minute. Now it's a disaster zone of nastiness (not just the gender wars), and the odd troll thread.

A lot of women I'd imagine lurk a lot, but a shyer few might have been afraid to post in case they were ripped to shreds, let alone the views *some* of the men have towards women.

I've never been afraid to post, but I am finding the forum less and less enjoyable.

efb

http://m.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055853138&page=98

There you go- see my post ;-)

Fizzlesque

Piste wrote: »

I explicitly said I didn't particularly want censorship, I want these comments not to be made in the first place. I think the best way to stop people making these comments is to show them they're not acceptable, by discussing it in threads like this and by calling people out on their behaviour in-thread.

Ficheall wrote: »

Technically, that is censorship.

I didn't read Piste's post to be advocating, even technically, censorship. I read it to mean don't censor, allow people to say whatever they want, but know that, equally, those who think someone needs to be pulled up about stuff, will do just that.

If people who make these comments don't have the opportunity to make, in a censorship-free environment to begin with, and then and discover they're not really acceptable (due to having made them and being told), then they'll never learn they're not acceptable. [hmmmm, this is turning into a tongue twister, not sure I'll get to the end of this post still knowing what I'm trying to say].

Of course, all that presume the capacity and desire to grow and learn, which may not always be the case.

Gummy Panda

Someone give me an update.

Have we agreed to get along and have cake?

Ficheall

Abi wrote: »

Would you like some jam on that too sir? :pac:

My heart is telling me there's obvious potential innuendo here, but my brain is refusing to cooperate

Tombi!

Gummy Panda wrote: »

Someone give me an update.

Have we agreed to get along and have cake?

Depends. Are you a man? If so, no. We're on a "pro women; boo men" thing right now.

And yes, I am disgused as a lady to get cake.

Fizzlesque

Gummy Panda wrote: »

Someone give me an update.

Have we agreed to get along and have cake?

The cake is now stale .....bloomin' long threads (which I secretly love )

hondasam

Abi wrote: »

I've never been afraid to post, but I am finding the forum less and less enjoyable.

Same here but I would say some women are treated like one of the lads which makes it easier to post.
I think the regular posters are treated a bit different to the sometimes posters.

Gongoozler

Abi wrote: »

Would you like some jam on that too sir? :pac:


I used to come back time and time again to AH, because it was a laugh a minute. Now it's a disaster zone of nastiness (not just the gender wars), and the odd troll thread.

A lot of women I'd imagine lurk a lot, but a shyer few might have been afraid to post in case they were ripped to shreds, let alone the views *some* of the men have towards women.

I've never been afraid to post, but I am finding the forum less and less enjoyable.

You say this as if it's fact, but unless lurkers come in to make the same point/agree, then you would be as well off just to give your own feelings on the topic.

Tombi!

Ficheall wrote: »

My heart is telling me there's obvious potential innuendo here, but my brain is refusing to cooperate

Well maybe if you put the jam on your hoo-hoo-dilly someone's gonna get a bit hungry

Abi

Ficheall wrote: »

My heart is telling me there's obvious potential innuendo here, but my brain is refusing to cooperate

If that means what I think it means, no there was no innuendo

/puts down fork


/pushes away cake

hondasam wrote: »

Same here but I would say some women are treated like one of the lads which makes it easier to post.
I think the regular posters are treated a bit different to the sometimes posters.

That is true of most fora though, not a whole lot can be done there.

Nodin

Gummy Panda wrote: »

Someone give me an update.

Have we agreed to get along and have cake?

The Cake Is A Lie.

Abi

Gongoozler wrote: »

You say this as if it's fact, but unless lurkers come in to make the same point/agree, then you would be as well off just to give your own feelings on the topic.

Two things.


1) Welcome to boards.


2) This isn't the first time this subject has come up.

Ficheall

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

Well maybe if you put the jam on your hoo-hoo-dilly someone's gonna get a bit hungry

I find that sexist, offensive, and a little nauseating

Tombi!

Ficheall wrote: »

I find that sexist, offensive, and a little nauseating

Alright I'll be very blunt: stick some jam on your penis and go near a beehive and have fun with your innudendo

Ficheall

*reports BD for living up to his username *

Fight_Night

MrMojoRisin wrote: »

They have to take a lot of that negativity? Bullsh!t. If other blokes were any way mature and had their heads screwed on, they wouldn't abnegate responsibility for their own unhappiness by lazily projecting their frustrations on to the female population by demeaning them.

That's the dumbest thing I ever heard.

It's the dumbest thing you've ever heard? Ever?

Just giving the honest answer, you can put your head in the sand if you want but at the end of the day all off topic forums are about bitching whether it is about something that happened in the day or a problem with society. Women being in the minority will take the heat sometimes. Don't take it personally, if it wasn't women it would just(and normally is) something else. They don't physically 'have to' but I'm just pointing out how I see it. Didn't condone it(although being honest don't feel very strongly about it).

Gongoozler

Abi wrote: »

Two things.


1) Welcome to boards.


2) This isn't the first time this subject has come up.

Thank you.

So, you mean that you're saying some women might be lurking but afraid to post, based on what some have said in previous threads?