Anti-women threads in AH

Potatoeman

People on internet forums bitch and especially bitch about things they can’t talk about in real life. It’s more acceptable for woman to criticise men than for a man to criticise women. Most guys would have heard women openly say “all men are bastards” even in the workplace. If a guy said “all women are bitches” at work he would be down in HR pretty fast. Double standards breed resentment.

Gummy Panda

Nodin wrote: »

The Cake Is A Lie.

Awwww....

Abi

Gummy Panda wrote: »

Awwww....

There there...


/rubs belly

Daveysil15

Potatoeman wrote: »

People on internet forums bitch and especially bitch about things they can’t talk about in real life. It’s more acceptable for woman to criticise men than for a man to criticise women. Most guys would have heard women openly say “all men are bastards” even in the workplace. If a guy said “all women are bitches” at work he would be down in HR pretty fast. Double standards breed resentment.

Exactly, and AH would be pretty boring if everyone was pefect and had the same opinions as everyone else.

Nodin

Gummy Panda wrote: »

Awwww....

The world is cruel betimes.

Millicent

Potatoeman wrote: »

People on internet forums bitch and especially bitch about things they can’t talk about in real life. It’s more acceptable for woman to criticise men than for a man to criticise women. Most guys would have heard women openly say “all men are bastards” even in the workplace. If a guy said “all women are bitches” at work he would be down in HR pretty fast. Double standards breed resentment.

So why not tackle that at source and confront those women who make stupid, sexist remarks rather than use it as a rod to beat innocent female posters online? That saying "Two wrongs don't make a right" rings really true against this argument.

The King of Moo

Potatoeman wrote: »

People on internet forums bitch and especially bitch about things they can’t talk about in real life. It’s more acceptable for woman to criticise men than for a man to criticise women. Most guys would have heard women openly say “all men are bastards” even in the workplace. If a guy said “all women are bitches” at work he would be down in HR pretty fast. Double standards breed resentment.

People say this happens all the time but I've never heard a woman say it, either in real life or in After Hours.

I think it's something people imagine, or at least imagine is much more common than it is.

Also, most people I know, regardless of gender, would think a woman saying something like that was an idiot.

Tombi!

Potatoeman wrote: »

People on internet forums bitch and especially bitch about things they can’t talk about in real life. It’s more acceptable for woman to criticise men than for a man to criticise women. Most guys would have heard women openly say “all men are bastards” even in the workplace. If a guy said “all women are bitches” at work he would be down in HR pretty fast. Double standards breed resentment.

Millicent hit it on the head but just to add: if you heard a woman refer to men like that at work, report her.

Ficheall

Millicent wrote: »

So why not tackle that at source and confront those women who make stupid, sexist remarks rather than use it as a rod to beat innocent female posters online?

And sue her for the trauma caused.

Potatoeman

I simply said that is sexist. I don’t believe in PC I would rather hear what people are really thinking than report someone. You get a clearer picture of who they really are. The girl in question had been dumped so didn’t really care but the double standard is there.

Abi

The King of Moo wrote: »

People say this happens all the time but I've never heard a woman say it, either in real life or in After Hours.

I have, a couple of times in fact. If I decided to even bother with a gender war thread I'd chime in with

All men are bastards, all women are bitches

/ thread

In a vain hope of diffusing, or pointing out another gender war. It never worked, trolls were fed =/

Daveysil15

Millicent wrote: »

So why not tackle that at source and confront those women who make stupid, sexist remarks rather than use it as a rod to beat innocent female posters online?

Who say's its not been tackled at the source? Sometimes it is and it makes no difference, so the person goes online to complain about it, just to see what other people think of it.

Millicent

Daveysil15 wrote: »

Exactly, and AH would be pretty boring if everyone was pefect and had the same opinions as everyone else.

I don't want everyone to have the same opinion as me and that's not the issue here. The issue is that female posters should be able to expect a basic level of respect in discourse here. I see no one has answered the question--if it's not okay to systematically and insidiously denigrate black people, Muslims, immigrants or other groups, why is it okay to do it to women?

Because it's funny or because I shouldn't have to change what I post so as not to offend 50 per cent of the population is not a good enough answer.

Abi

Millicent wrote: »

I don't want everyone to have the same opinion as me and that's not the issue here. The issue is that female posters should be able to expect a basic level of respect in discourse here. I see no one has answered the question--if it's not okay to systematically and insidiously denigrate black people, Muslims, immigrants or other groups, why is it okay to do it to women?

Because it's funny or because I shouldn't have to change what I post so as not to offend 50 per cent of the population is not a good enough answer.

Tbh Mill, that

Exactly, and AH would be pretty boring if everyone was pefect and had the same opinions as everyone else.

is a very weak argument. Unless there is nothing more to woman bashing in AH, then nobody is going to be the exact same. Another thin veil for allowing a gender war.

Daveysil15

Millicent wrote: »

I don't want everyone to have the same opinion as me and that's not the issue here. The issue is that female posters should be able to expect a basic level of respect in discourse here. I see no one has answered the question--if it's not okay to systematically and insidiously denigrate black people, Muslims, immigrants or other groups, why is it okay to do it to women?

Because it's funny or because I shouldn't have to change what I post so as not to offend 50 per cent of the population is not a good enough answer.

Yeah I see where you're coming from. I guess sexism is just not taken as seriously as racism and so on. Although I have seen a few male posters get banned for making sexist remarks, so its not as lenient as you may think. Somtimes its just not enforced properly.

donfers

The King of Moo wrote: »

People say this happens all the time but I've never heard a woman say it, either in real life or in After Hours.

I think it's something people imagine, or at least imagine is much more common than it is.

Also, most people I know, regardless of gender, would think a woman saying something like that was an idiot.

i've heard the "all men are bastards" things a few times in real life but it was usually said in jest and didn't offend me in the slightest, however i have to say the Irish women I know are remarkably open-minded, level-headed and easygoing so i am not really familiar with a lot of the horror stories outlined here - but heh moo you had ample opportunity to check the far-out claims of some of the posters in this thread who made accusations from the other side of the fence and said nothing, we should always strive to be as even-handed as possible in out analyses

what i mean to say is i've never heard or read any man say "all irish women are scum" "all irish women are fat and ugly" which are accusations that have been thrown around in this thread against AH users and used as examples of how apparently sexist this forum has become - simply because these are so outrageous and plainly wrong that nobody could take the person who said this stuff any way seriously

i'd like to see examples of these comments so that I can see them in the context they were written and if the posters who said such things were disciplined

hondasam

I think some people are being over sensitive. We all have to listen to crap in RL and we make the choice to fight out corner or ignore it.
This is the internet after all and I think if mods see anything OTT they will step in.
Some comments are funny some are down right offensive but everyone is entitled to their opinion whether we like it or not.

Millicent

Daveysil15 wrote: »

Yeah I see where you're coming from. I guess sexism is just not taken as seriously as racism and so on. Although I have seen a few male posters get banned for making sexist remarks, so its not as lenient as you may think. Somtimes its just not enforced properly.

But it should be, that's the thing. In this day and age, it surprises me that it's still perceived as a very big ask. The blatant sexists do get dealt with here; it's the ones that are smart enough to fly just enough under the radar and within the current rules who make the place unpleasant to be around sometimes.

Fight_Night

Abi wrote: »

Tbh Mill, that



is a very weak argument. Unless there is nothing more to woman bashing in AH, then nobody is going to be the exact same. Another thin veil for allowing a gender war.

Don't be a drama queen, there is not a gender war at work here. Yes now and again a 'women-bashing' thread can pop up and I can see where you're coming from with regards to that but most of it is said in good humour, you get the odd comment that goes overboard, well report it.

Daveysil15

Millicent wrote: »

But it should be, that's the thing. In this day and age, it surprises me that it's still perceived as a very big ask. The blatant sexists do get dealt with here; it's the ones that are smart enough to fly just enough under the radar and within the current rules who make the place unpleasant to be around sometimes.

Well if they're flying under the radar and stay within the rules then obviously their remarks are not OTT and they're not been too insulting. If someone is upleasant or annoys you that doesn't warrant a ban or censorship. Just report the people who are making the very insulting and sexist comments. A lot of them are just trolls anyway.

Potatoeman

Millicent wrote: »

But it should be, that's the thing. In this day and age, it surprises me that it's still perceived as a very big ask. The blatant sexists do get dealt with here; it's the ones that are smart enough to fly just enough under the radar and within the current rules who make the place unpleasant to be around sometimes.

That’s very subjective. Look around for sarcastic posts where people were taken seriously only to have people jump down their throat.

Fight_Night

Millicent wrote: »

But it should be, that's the thing. In this day and age, it surprises me that it's still perceived as a very big ask. The blatant sexists do get dealt with here; it's the ones that are smart enough to fly just enough under the radar and within the current rules who make the place unpleasant to be around sometimes.

If they aren't breaking any rules then there isn't much you can do, can't just ban people because you don't like them.

Abi

Fight_Night wrote: »

Don't be a drama queen,

So you think I'm in a heated flap on this end over it do you? Trust me, I am not, far from it.

there is not a gender war at work here.

I was not specifically talking about this thread though, so I believe that is where you are getting your wires crossed. When I said 'to allow a gender war', I meant in any thread, that is specifically designed as one.

Yes now and again a 'women-bashing' thread can pop up and I can see where you're coming from with regards to that but most of it is said in good humour, you get the odd comment that goes overboard, well report it.

While I'm very sure that obvious troll posts will be dealt with, I highly doubt that the mods want to see 'he said this' and 'she said that' every five minutes.

I bring this back to the point that I made earlier about mods having to hold the hands of repeat offenders. I'm not devoid of all humour, the odd side dig towards a gender is one thing.

But this connnnnnnstant crap churned out about how women are mean to guys in clubs, and another is women are insanely jealous of foreign women etc.. Its fúcking tiring.

I do feel wretched for any guy that has been treated by women badly, but why we should all be tarred with the same brush? I'd happily sit there and chat away with a guy, fúck it, theres a fair few guys in AH I know I'd get a great laugh out of with a few scoops. We just aren't all the same across the board =/

And as for the foreign stuff. You'd be surprised, women can appreciate female beauty, it's only the jealous ones that spit venom over it. But for the majority of us, we're actually quite happy with our lot.

Millicent

Daveysil15 wrote: »

Well if they're flying under the radar and stay within the rules then obviously their remarks are not OTT and they're not been too insulting. If someone is upleasant or annoys you that doesn't warrant a ban or censorship. Just report the people who are making the very insulting and sexist comments. A lot of them are just trolls anyway.

It's really hard to explain this so bear with me because I'm going to attempt to do it. I might fluff it but I'm trying my best to articulate it well.

Those little minor, throwaway, jokey-jokey-but-not-really posts when taken on their own don't really look like much. They seem like people messing around or having a bit of a laugh (at someone else's expense, mind, but not necessarily consciously so). However, when it's not just one or two, when it's part of the narrative of an entire forum, it begins to taint the whole place. The forum begins to take on a tone, starts to become a forum that isn't a great place to be in if you're one of those people who the jokes are about.

The "smart ones" I was talking about are no less sexist than the out-and-out sexists. They know how to say just enough to needle at the other group but not enough to be disciplined.

If the jokes aren't about you, chances are you don't notice them. You may think it's funny; you may just not pay it any heed. But when a number of those in the joked about group point out this tone and people tell them they're just being sensitive or trying to censor others or lacking in humour, it diminishes and tacitly gives permission to others to keep behaving in the same way. I fail to see why that is fair to the joked about group who either have to "take it on the chin" or avoid the forum just because others can't put themselves in others' shoes.

Tombi!

Daveysil15 wrote: »

Well if they're flying under the radar and stay within the rules then obviously their remarks are not OTT and they're not been too insulting. If someone is upleasant or annoys you that doesn't warrant a ban or censorship. Just report the people who are making the very insulting and sexist comments. A lot of them are just trolls anyway.

No.
Internet forums don't work like that. If you're a sublte príck, you're still a subtle one.

Millicent

Potatoeman wrote: »

That’s very subjective. Look around for sarcastic posts where people were taken seriously only to have people jump down their throat.

In fairness to the mods, I have reported the blatant ones -- JohnJoe here last night comes to mind -- and they were swiftly banned. The point I was making was more to do with the more subtle ones who know how to bend the rules just enough to avoid a ban.

Millicent

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

No.
Internet forums don't work like that. If you're a sublte príck, you're still a subtle one.

Exactly what I was trying to say! A good deal more succinctly too... :pac:

Micky Dolenz

Millicent wrote: »

In fairness to the mods, I have reported the blatant ones -- JohnJoe here last night comes to mind -- and they were swiftly banned. The point I was making was more to do with the more subtle ones who know how to bend the rules just enough to avoid a ban.

Firstly I'd like to say, I have nothing but respect for you. You and a few more are the balanced voice of reason. Without voices like yours, we can never move on.

This subtle low level trolling is something we are only too aware of. You may notice a few big time LLT are no longer with us. The more they are reported, the bigger the case against them becomes. Then one day we quietly take them out of the community.

I know I sound like a broken record here but the more times a poster is reported by the community, the more we will notice the low level crap.

Abi

Millicent wrote: »

Those little minor, throwaway, jokey-jokey-but-not-really posts when taken on their own don't really look like much. They seem like people messing around or having a bit of a laugh (at someone else's expense, mind, but not necessarily consciously so). However, when it's not just one or two, when it's part of the narrative of an entire forum, it begins to taint the whole place. The forum begins to take on a tone one that isn't a great place to be in if you're one of those people who the jokes are about.

These are common enough, and therefore do fly under the radar. Those ones are the ones that would prevent you from saying anything, because they mightn't seem damning enough for a mod to pull them up on.


Edit: Just copped your post there Micky, noted.

starbelgrade

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Then one day we quietly take them out of the community.

You sound more like a hitman for the mob than a broken record!

The King of Moo

donfers wrote: »

i've heard the "all men are bastards" things a few times in real life but it was usually said in jest and didn't offend me in the slightest, however i have to say the Irish women I know are remarkably open-minded, level-headed and easygoing so i am not really familiar with a lot of the horror stories outlined here - but heh moo you had ample opportunity to check the far-out claims of some of the posters in this thread who made accusations from the other side of the fence and said nothing, we should always strive to be as even-handed as possible in out analyses

what i mean to say is i've never heard or read any man say "all irish women are scum" "all irish women are fat and ugly" which are accusations that have been thrown around in this thread against AH users and used as examples of how apparently sexist this forum has become - simply because these are so outrageous and plainly wrong that nobody could take the person who said this stuff any way seriously

i'd like to see examples of these comments so that I can see them in the context they were written and if the posters who said such things were disciplined

I've heard women say all men are bastards too, also in jest, but I assumed potatoeman meant that he heard it used seriously, which is something I've never heard in real life, though on mature recollection, I have seen a very small number of posts by female users making generalisations about men, but only a very small number.

There haven't really been many neanderthalic posts in this thread, maybe because some of the more sensible posts have shown the people who might make them that they wouldn't be very welcome here.

There was that guy who hates women and believes in Zionist conspiracy theories, but he's an extreme example of the type and was swiftly dealt with by others.

I could go back and trawl through threads for idiotic posts, though it would take me some time, as like I said, they are in a minority, albeit a vocal and persistent one.
They are quite common though: they're to be found in the regular threads which deal with gender, often created early on Sunday morning or afternoon.

Micky Dolenz

starbelgrade wrote: »

You sound more like a hitman for the mob than a broken record!

Damn, my cover is blown.

*Checks for starbels IP address*

Daveysil15

Millicent wrote: »

Those little minor, throwaway, jokey-jokey-but-not-really posts when taken on their own don't really look like much. They seem like people messing around or having a bit of a laugh (at someone else's expense, mind, but not necessarily consciously so). However, when it's not just one or two, when it's part of the narrative of an entire forum, it begins to taint the whole place. The forum begins to take on a tone one that isn't a great place to be in if you're one of those people who the jokes are about.

The "smart ones" I was talking about are no less sexist than the out-and-out sexists. They know how to say just enough to needle at the other group but not enough to be disciplined.

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

No.
Internet forums don't work like that. If you're a sublte príck, you're still a subtle one.

Yeah I understand completely what you're saying and I have seen it before. There are some people who purposefully post ambiguous comments just to get a reaction, then when someone disagrees with them, they reply saying that they meant something else entirely. It does happen from time to time - they're sneaky - often condecending, and it is very annoying, but there's not much you can do about it. Try not to let them get to you.

Morag

Gongoozler wrote: »

Thank you.

So, you mean that you're saying some women might be lurking but afraid to post, based on what some have said in previous threads?

This topic comes regularly on the forum, do a search here or on feedback and you will see.
You will also see women posters giving up on AH and some even the site due to it.

AH has gotten a lot better with that crap after the last time there was this sort of feedback
but it's gotten out of hand again and I know it's put me off posting in here.

Abi

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

I know I sound like a broken record here but the more times a poster is reported by the community, the more we will notice the low level crap.

I can't speak for everyone on this, but it wouldn't be ordinarily something that I personally would report, as it become standard that it is okay to have a go at women in AH. Reporting low level stuff feels like you'd be telling tattles, and (maybe others feel the same) but I would feel silly reporting something like that. It feels too, playground-ish at this stage. Sexist comments had become the nature of the AH beast.

I have noted what you've said however. How about the AH mods put it in the "so this month we will be infracting for" thread and see how it goes

Works both ways, men and teh wimmins! :pac:

Micky Dolenz

Abi wrote: »

I can't speak for everyone on this, but it wouldn't be ordinarily something that I personally would report, as it become standard that it is okay to have a go at women in AH. Reporting low level stuff feels like you'd be telling tattles, and (maybe others feel the same) but I would feel silly reporting something like that. It feels too, playground-ish at this stage. Sexist comments had become the nature of the AH beast.

I have noted what you've said however. How about the AH mods put it in the "so this month we will be infracting for" thread and see how it goes

Works both ways, men and teh wimmins! :pac:

We have all the rules in place, it's just enforcing them. As you say, it may be an idea to remind people of specific parts of the charter via that "we're coming to get you" sticky.

Since the last feedback thread, we complied a shit list of low level trolls. We would ensure that every word they wrote was read and we acted accordingly. It was successful, as in, a few were permabanned from the forum.

I think it's probably time to update that list.

donfers

low level trolling, under the radar, subtle, know how to bend the rules, narrative of the forum, tone etc etc

that's all very very very very vague and as long as the accusations continue to be vague hot air, not a lot can be done about what is said

incidentally let me repeat, women are not alone in being the butt of the joke in AH, everybody is, that's kind of how the forum operates

if a strict zero tolerance approach is applied to banter/gags/offensive comments/call it what you like against women then many will argue that the same rigour should be applied to policing comments about men, christians, treehuggers, computer geeks, boggers, immigrants, cyclists, hippies etc etc

if you handle only the women-related threads with a zero tolerance approach (or very near that) then that is sexism in itself (whether that sexist act is necessary or not is another debate but some seem to be arguing for it as they seem to see their persecution as a kind of special case - that may be valid, i don't know)

so again i ask what are the demands of the posters in this thread agitating for change?

a) a ban on all threads relating in any way to themes about women in general

b) a strict policing on threads about women in general (where a more rigorous approach is applied and there is less tolerance for jokey edgy borderline stuff that would be allowed on the rest of the forum)

c) a transformation of the forum in its entirity to a more serious high-brow and mature meeting-place where any kind of gags, humour, sarcasm or irony that might offend even someone with the most delicate of sensibilities be immediately removed and the poster punished - the message loud and clear that AH is changing focus

d) just post a thread like this every few months and hope slowly but surely that people take on board the message that AH is becoming less tolerant of any kind of disaparaging insinuation towards the female gender (but carte blanche still exists elsewhere)

those are all the options i can think of that aren't bound in vague subjective interpretations so which one is it to be then?

Millicent

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Firstly I'd like to say, I have nothing but respect for you. You and a few more are the balanced voice of reason. Without voices like yours, we can never move on.

This subtle low level trolling is something we are only too aware of. You may notice a few big time LLT are no longer with us. The more they are reported, the bigger the case against them becomes. Then one day we quietly take them out of the community.

I know I sound like a broken record here but the more times a poster is reported by the community, the more we will notice the low level crap.

Thanks, Micky, and you know I gots mad love for you.

I really appreciate that answer and what ye all are doing. Maybe if a few were less quietly taken out, though, it might make others sit up and take notice? What would the mods think of doing that? Practically I don't know if it would work but if there was a note after whatever post was the one that broke the camel's back that this poster was banned for routine harassment/abuse/dicknishess to women, it would send out a message.

It would reinforce to those of us who, for one reason or another, have noticed and are annoyed by those posts that we are listened to, respected and valued. I think that such a message would do an awful lot on both sides, weeding out those potential low-level crap users before they get a chance to really get comfortable here, and telling those of us who feel like this that we are understood.

Just my two cents.

hondasam

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

I think it's probably time to update that list.

what if I promise to be good?

Gongoozler

Sharrow wrote: »

This topic comes regularly on the forum, do a search here on on feedback and you will see. You will also seem women posters giving up on AH and some even the site due to it.

AH has gotten a lot better with that crap after the last time there was this sort of feedback but it's gotten out of hand again and I know it's put me off posting in here.

OK, you're saying it's putting you off too, and that's coming from you, but what I don't get is that you can say it's putting others off - unless you know them personally, surely you can't know if that's why someone has left.

Tombi!

Daveysil15 wrote: »

Yeah I understand completely what you're saying and I have seen it before. There are some people who purposefully post ambiguous comments just to get a reaction, then when someone disagrees with them, they reply saying that they meant something else entirely. It does happen from time to time - they're sneaky - often condecending, and it is very annoying, but there's not much you can do about it. Try not to let them get to you.

I didn't know boards kept profiles on its users like how Micky said :pac:
But seriously from what I gather every report that's made helps. Within reason. Obviously if you're reporting stuff that's fine then it doesn't help the case at all. So reporting does work even if it takes a while

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Since the last feedback thread, we complied a shit list of low level trolls. We would ensure that every word they wrote was read and we acted accordingly. It was successful, as in, a few were permabanned from the forum.

I think it's probably time to update that list.

Hey uh listen I'm not sure how to put this but they can just make new accounts. So... ever think about taking them out, permantely?
I'll do it for oh say, the chance to say "all women belong in the kitchen" at the next beers.

But I do have a somewhat serious question: you said they get every word read. I assume you mean by a mod. So if you think a user is trouble you (or any mod) will actively check their posts to make sure they're not being dicks to other people?

Gummy Panda

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

This subtle low level trolling is something we are only too aware of. You may notice a few big time LLT are no longer with us. The more they are reported, the bigger the case against them becomes. Then one day we quietly take them out of the community.

Michael Caffee above

Morag

Gongoozler wrote: »

OK, you're saying it's putting you off too, and that's coming from you, but what I don't get is that you can say it's putting others off - unless you know them personally, surely you can't know if that's why someone has left.

How do I know? cos one person left the site stated that was the reason, she got no end of stick for refusing to put up with sexist clap trap on AH.

How do I know it puts other women posters off? Cos they tell me, I have many friends who have been on boards years and the majority of them tell me they won't post in AH due to the sexist put downs and the ganging up on women posters by lads who think they are funneh.

Potatoeman

Millicent wrote: »

Thanks, Micky, and you know I gots mad love for you.

I really appreciate that answer and what ye all are doing. Maybe if a few were less quietly taken out, though, it might make others sit up and take notice? What would the mods think of doing that? Practically I don't know if it would work but if there was a note after whatever post was the one that broke the camel's back that this poster was banned for routine harassment/abuse/dicknishess to women, it would send out a message.

It would reinforce to those of us who, for one reason or another, have noticed and are annoyed by those posts that we are listened to, respected and valued. I think that such a message would do an awful lot on both sides, weeding out those potential low-level crap users before they get a chance to really get comfortable here, and telling those of us who feel like this that we are understood.

Just my two cents.

No, transparency is far better.

Gongoozler

Sharrow wrote: »

How do I know? cos one person left the site stated that was the reason, she got no end of stick for refusing to put up with sexist clap trap on AH.

How do I know it puts other women posters off? Cos they tell me, I have many friends who have been on boards years and the majority of them tell me they won't post in AH due to the sexist put downs and the ganging up on women posters by lads who think they are funneh.

That's fair. I haven't seen anyone mention reasons for leaving the site myself. Just wanted an idea of where this notion was coming from, and if it was based on anything in reality. Thanks.

Millicent

Potatoeman wrote: »

No, transparency is far better.

Are you agreeing with me or no? Sorry, long day at work. Brain slightly fried.

Morag

Gongoozler wrote: »

That's fair. I haven't seen anyone mention reasons for leaving the site myself. Just wanted an idea of where this notion was coming from, and if it was based on anything in reality. Thanks.

Here have a read, you might learn a thing or two.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056033467

Gongoozler

Sharrow wrote: »

Here have a read, you might learn a thing or two.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056033467

Ah, thanks for the link, though I probably won't read all 468 posts. I think the 'you might learn a thing or two' comment was unnecessary and slightly bitchy. I didn't do anything to you, and I'd appreciate if you could not treat me like I have.

Morag

You are reading a tone of voice which is not in my post.
I would offer to edit it and ad a but I guess that may be misconstrued as being patronising.

Gongoozler

Sharrow wrote: »

You are reading a tone of voice which is not in my post.
I would offer to edit it and ad a but I guess that may be misconstrued as being patronising.

If you say I took it up wrong, then I take you at your word.