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Blog about Soviet memorials
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15-07-2012 11:19am#1
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jonniebgood1 wrote: »Since when does a memorial to soldiers sacrifice mean that people are as you put it "obligated" to honour it.
Do you really believe that a memorial can only exist if 100% of people in that country support the memorial. I don't see where you are going with this?
Just came across this thread and am enjoying the naivete enormously.
Now the people you really need to ask about all these memorials are the people in countries like Poland, Belarus, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania etc. I have no connection to any of these countries but I am familiar with some of the parallels they have with THIS country, and the whole way in which some people are trying to make an issue out of COmmemoration.
For many of them, it's not enough that such memorials and statues exist here. They must be visited and venerated by anybody of any importance regularly and often.
For example: Have a look at this rant from Kevin Myers recently, following a ceremony to "remember" RIC and DMP casualties of the War of Independence.
It follows a familiar line that he and several of his ilk have trodden before. "Where were all the rest of you? Why weren't the government here? Where's your poppy? HOW DARE YOU NOT SEE THINGS THE WAY WE DO!!!"
That, after all, is what the "CO" in "Commemoration" is all about. Finding common ground that we all share. But maybe we don't all see historical events the same way. Maybe some of us regard both world wars as slightly more complex than doing down the dastardly Hun. And maybe we don't all want to be seen to be getting too close to people whose viewpoints we inherently distrust.
I have long thought that a good answer to "Why don't you thank the British Army and those who served in it for saving Europe?" would be to say "Well, why don't you go into a Polish social club and say 'Let's all thank that nice Josef Stalin and his army for all he did in liberating Poland!'"?
You do that, you deserve a Victoria Cross because they would probably beat you to death with an empty vodka bottle. And you would deserve it.
If you wonder why, then I suggest you google events like Katyn and the Warsaw Uprising of 1944. In the former case, the Soviets murdered thousands of Polish middle class people following the invasion of Eastern Poland in cahoots with the Nazis.
In the latter example, the Soviets at the gates of Warsaw sat back and refused to help as the Polish people rose up in an attempt to support the liberation of their capital city from the German occupiers. Not only did Stalin refuse to help the Poles, he refused to allow the Western Allies to fly in supplies either. He was thinking ahead to the next play.
He knew that there would be a power struggle in Poland between left and right following the Nazi eviction and he was making damned sure the left were going to win. Why go to all the hassle of putting them down (and carting them off to the forest to execute a second generation) when the Nazis would do the job for him?
Which they did. Thousands of Poles died in the futile fighting for Warsaw.
And you seriously wonder why Polish people might be ambivalent about heaping praise and gratitude on the Soviets???
As I say, I'm not Polish or indeed Eastern European at all. I would be very interested to hear what any Polish people might think about this.
And please. Anybody who feels the bile rising and thinks I may have Godwinned the discussion, I said there were "parallels" between our country and the smaller ones in Eastern Europe. Not equivalencies.
But I think I know where the reluctant "commemorators" are coming from.0 -
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Interesting blog.. and even more interesting thread
I am not a historian, and not particularily interested in WWII, but happen to live in Poland for some time, so I can provide a comment of a casual folk, not really interested in political discussion (in case it would affect oppinions). As such, I have spotted few heavy faults here. Perhaps a chronological order would help best understand attitude of locals to these monuments;
- "Polish fascizm" - that's rather unheard in Poland. If it existed before WWII was rather marginal and short lived. Not to be confused with "sanacja" aiming at restoriation and preserving still very weak country - especially vulnerable against Soviet Russia (see Polish-Soviet wars) and later Nazi Germany. Calling 'fascizm' in context of Warsaw uprising may cause a lot of confusion, at best. It is true though, that Polish politicians (see Pilsudski) had at the time some 'imperialistic' ambitions - they wanted to form a federation of new formed weak central european countries to prevent new invasions from the West or East.
- Not without importance was long history with Russia, rarely peaceful. Polish 'average Joe' new better what was happening in early Soviet Russia (forbidding religion, nationalisation of land, massive starvation, no need to understand politics really for catholic and farming country men). The fact that Soviets invaded half of the country just 16 days after Germans should not be ommitted. The same Red Army Poland fought with few years before (see Warsaw battle) and which supposedly liberated the country later.
- I think in minds of most people, at least in Poland, there was no sense of freedom for the next over 50 years. The country was created and controlled by Soviet Russia. There was no acceptance of this fact (as in the west), but rather understanding of the hopless situation. There was absolutely no setiment for Soviet 'liberators'. The monuments were created as places of forced cult of Soviet Russia (places of celebration of communist events), and this was clear to all. Could not be openly resisted. This is nothing to do with Russian people - there were the biggest victims of the communist party regime.
- Propaganda - Education system was naturally affected. Not that people belived it in Poland, but heavily censored particuralily history had no alternative. No such thing like free press. No access to western sources (Iron Curtain) Eg. 'Katyn' officially did not exist, as any of soviet crimes against humanity. I am not surprised by people actually living in Soviet union, that they still prize Red Army - 'Pabieda' was and still is a symbol of tryumph and superiority of the Soviet Russia (edit: and TOTALY marginalizing the role of the Allied forces). A symbol uniting the soviet nations against the new enemy - the western world - for the next 50 years, but also reminding them about the power of it. Beware that many sources and definately many minds will be heavily affected still by such propaganda. Mind also, that those who were not accepting Communist Peace were doomed for extinction.
The monument themselves were built usually in prime locations in every town and city, regardless if there were actually any important struglees of RA there (BTW - Polish Army battles were wiped out from public memory and the soldiers prosecuted). These were monuments of Soviet domination, and understandingly were put away when not needed anymore, to better use the space. I have not heard about any any anti-Russian event accompanying removing these symbols. The actual monuments and places of rest of soldiers were not touched to my knowledge.0 -
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