Dog Food Question

ShaShaBear

I know this question has probably been exhausted, some people on here know I've taken my family dog (collie-Bernese cross) as my mother isn't fit to look after him for me any more. He will be 8 in a few months.
He was not walked at home by anyone except when I came to visit, and since I moved him here, I've noticed slight stiffness of his joints and he sleeps quite a bit more than I would expect a collie even at his age. He's got a bit of weight to lose, and he's just finished off the bag of dried food (Aldi brand) that my mother had been feeding him (I know this isn't ideal, but I didn't want to risk upsetting his stomach as well as his routine and surroundings so quickly) and I want to get him onto a proper diet that will hopefully help with his joints as well as combating the weight and energy issues.

I'm not wiping my mouth with money after dinner or anything, but I don't mind going for a slightly pricier brand. Could probably afford €30 a week on his food if that's any addition.

Thanks in advance

toadfly

We used to feed our old dog propac senior, that with PLT tabs he lived to 17 in great health. He was on 2 tabs a day at first but we were able to cut it down to 1 a day and he was flying. Id say if he was to lose some weight and get him onto a better food it would make a great difference to him.

ShaShaBear

TillyGirl wrote: »

We used to feed our old dog propac senior, that with PLT tabs he lived to 17 in great health. He was on 2 tabs a day at first but we were able to cut it down to 1 a day and he was flying. Id say if he was to lose some weight and get him onto a better food it would make a great difference to him.

I'm hoping its mostly down to lack of exercise and poor nutrition. He's getting two good half-hour walks a day at the minute (I'm building him up as after about twenty minutes he's lagging behind) so I'm hoping if I combine that with good food he'll get a boost

bluecherry74

If you have the time and the inclination (and the freezer space!) I highly recommend raw feeding. I switched my two to raw a few months ago and it was initially messy and confusing (for all of us), but now I have a nice little routine going and they're thriving.

If you'd prefer to stick to a dry food you can't really go wrong with Taste of the Wild. I'd says it's easily one of the best in that price range and it's the only dry food that every really suited my dogs. Try the Pacific Stream Canine flavour if you're concerned about his joints - it's made with fish protein.

http://www.zooplus.ie/shop/dogs/dry_dog_food/taste_of_the_wild

Another good choice is Barking Heads. They do a salmon and potato variety as well as lamb and rice, chicken and rice.

You could also include the odd tin of sardines with his dinner or a piece of fresh mackerel.

ShaShaBear

I wouldn't actually have the freezer space for raw feeding, all I have is a little ice box! I don't know how I never thought of fish though, Shadow will eat anything once he thinks you eat it too!

How far would the 13kg bag stretch? At the minute he takes about two large cups of dried food with about three spoonfuls of tinned food twice a day. Id be happy to sub the tinned food for raw meat, it was just keeping in habit with his previous feeding

bluecherry74

When I was feeding my setter, who weighs 19kg, a bag would last around 7 weeks. If you click into the product on Zooplus it will give you feeding guidelines based on adult weight. You might want to go 10%-20% below these if you want him to lose a little.

My two love fish There's no harm at all in feeding a good dry food and including some extra raw or cooked fish/meat or some well cooked veg. As long as it doesn't have anything processed and isn't highly spiced it will do him no harm. Just be sure to reduce the amount of dry food if you do give him anything extra.

Vince32

Grab a bottle of Salmon / fish Oil from any pet store, and put 1 tablespoon over each meal, the natural fish oils will help a lot with stiffness and joint problems, also this is an older dog, so take the walks down to 3x15 minute walks a day until the stiffness subsides, if it doesn't your vet might be able to give you a prescription joint lube for a little more money.

When I got my Sibe I was the one with stiff aching bones and muscles, because I was out of shape and too comfortable on the couch :P the short walks were hard at first, but you'll be surprised at how fast the fitness comes back; I put myself on a bottle fish oil tabs (seven seas I think) now the walks are a lot more enjoyable for both of us, the transition from a lazybones to active lifestyle takes a little time, so don't push too hard <- one who knows

Vince

EDIT: Don't mix raw and dry food in the same meal, they have different digestion rates, and can cause a bacteria problem in the stomach (or so people tell me)

I'm a raw feeder too, it's really easy to manage, even if you only buy supermarket meats and portion them in ziplock bags you'll be able to do it on a weekly basis, if freezer space for the month isn't available. Have a look in tesco's or any supermarket and see along the discount bins / shelves, you can get quite good meat for very little money, and it works out the same or cheaper in price than the dry food.

But if you are going to give it a go, you'll want to start with a basic ratio of 80-10-5-5 per meal, that's 80% meat, 10% raw bone (not load bearing bones) (cooked is bad news), 5% liver and 5% other organ. (fyi heart is considered muscle and falls into the 80% range).

Then all you need to do is check the poop, too solid means less bone next time, too loose means more bone next time, and you'll figure out your own ratios for your dog in no time. The liver and organ top up any minerals or vitamins, but there should be enough in the bone and bone marrow for it.

Your dog's meal should be 2% of it's total body weight (5% if it's still a pup {under 16 months} // 3% if it's a working dog) so a dog weighing 10kg, would have a meal size of 200g

Just thought I'd addon the basics on raw feeding, in case your were interested

ShaShaBear

Hmm, I like the sound of the raw feeding, don't know why I expected it to be more expensive! Where would I get raw bone from, and I'm assuming with those percentages, I would work out how many grams per meal Shadow should be getting, and proportion out those ingredients accordingly? And with the 80% meat, is there anything I should give him, or rather any sorts of meat I shouldn't?

Vince32

Have you heard the term "raw meaty bone"? it means a chicken leg whole, uncooked, thats the kind of thing you'd be looking for, lamb shoulders with bone, pork hocks (ankles) all relativity cheap, for an example a 1kg box of chicken oysters (upper thigh) is about €3, and will last 2-3 days of feeding.

The thing to remember is to vary the meats over the course of a month, white meats, red meats, fowl, fish ( needs to be frozen for 78 hrs, in case of parasites, but can be served whole, head and all) just like in the wild, you dog will make short work of the bones, and it's stomach acids are 10x ours, so don't worry about it passing.

The way I feed is called 'species appropriate diet' meaning how they would feed in the wild, and don't worry if refuse a meal from time to time, it's a natural thing, plus raw food is 80% moisture, so they will need to drink less water too.

There are other methods, BARF Bone And Raw Food, and another one that escapes me right now, everyone I know who has made the big switch, has reported a much happier and healthier dog as a result, dry food is a perfectly good option, but my dogs get real food, and in this raw food world, ki**le is a dirty word lol.

But do a few searches on your own, and find out the pro's and con's for yourself, and make a decision that suits both you and your dog. Until you know what you want to do with regard feeding, make sure to add at least some fish oils to the dry food for lubrication of the joints.

Vince

If you do switch, you will need to fast your dog for 12-16 hours before starting, to make sure the stomach is empty when you begin, it might be confused at first, but it will know what to do instinctively.

ShaShaBear

Thanks a million for all of that, going to do some more research and nosing when I do my next grocery shopping!

DBB

ShaShaBear wrote: »

Hmm, I like the sound of the raw feeding, don't know why I expected it to be more expensive! Where would I get raw bone from, and I'm assuming with those percentages, I would work out how many grams per meal Shadow should be getting, and proportion out those ingredients accordingly? And with the 80% meat, is there anything I should give him, or rather any sorts of meat I shouldn't?

There's a lot of disparity and differing opinions amongst raw feeders. Personally, I feed 70% raw meat and bones, 20% cooked veg puree, and 10% cooked spud. If you're feeding raw green tripe (not white tripe), the veggie component is not as important, but cooking and pureeing the veg mimics what wild canids eat from their prey's guts, and that is how they get various vitamins and nutrition that they can't get from meat alone.
How mush to feed? It depends on the dog, and over time you'll know how much is appropriate for your fella, but the rule of thumb for a dog with moderate daily activity is to feed about 3% of body weight per day, though I think you can scale it back for really large/giant breeds.
I have a big, strong GSD weighing 36kg (maybe a similar size to your dog?) who gets 700g per day, for example. It costs about €9 per week to feed her, and I don't rely on the discount shelf in Tesco. I get Prize Choice frozen blocks (400g per pack... my GSD gets one of these per day, with meaty bones and veg/spuds.. they are VERY handy) and I can squeeze about 30 of these into the top drawer of my freezer!

Vince32

I personally don't feed anything but meat on a bone and tripe, but DBB is right there are even cheaper and better ways to source food for your dogs, wholesalers love a cash sale you can find them in industrial parks, slaughter houses are great if your close enough to one, but you will have to buy in bulk to make a real saving, and with limited freezer space, it might not be the best option.

If you go to some dog shows, you'll find people selling tripe and meats frozen, from their delivery vans, and in case you don't know, tripe, especially green tripe, stinks to high heaven, kinda like manure, puke and decomposed grass all at once lol and dogs freakin love it!!

best of luck with it all, and if you have more questions, just ask I'm sure there are plenty of people willing to discuss raw feeding on this forum

Vince

ShaShaBear

I need to weigh Shadow back in, but last I checked at Christmas he was 42kg. He doesn't look madly overweight, must be the bigger breed making him stockier. It does sound like a much better option, and he has a bit of a fetish for spuds!

Renno123

I switched to Burns back in march and I am delighted with the results.
I might try another brand when this stuff is gone but thats just out of curiosity.
I use the same food on my 13 yr old dog as my 2 yr old.
the older one was quite over weight on the supermarket crap but now is the correct weight.

I bought a 15kg bag for around 58 euro and it did my 2 dogs around 14weeks.
they weigh 6.5kg and 8kg.

DogsFirst

DBB wrote: »

pureeing the veg mimics what wild canids eat from their prey's guts, and that is how they get various vitamins and nutrition that they can't get from meat alone.

Wolves and dog's don't eat the stomach contents of their prey, contrary to popular belief. Billinghurst first brought attention to the fact, citing David Mech, worlds leading wolf biologist, who says "...the only part consistently ignored in the stomach contents" based on a collective 350yrs of research. Holds for all wolves.

For dogs check out this video I found on youtube (skip to 1:40 and watch for 20 seconds). I use it to resolve the matter with doubting vets. It's a group of wild Australian dog / dingo hybrids tucking into a sheep they just killed. The big white bag you see hanging out of the sheep and carefully avoided by the dogs is the rumen, the pouch that holds all their food.

To be clear I absolutely do not support anything said in this video. I certainly abhor any sort of violence towards dogs or any other animal for that matter. The fact remains while true dingo numbers are in decline numbers of dingo hybrids are increasing rapidly across the outback, making up to 80-90% of the dingo population today. They are apparently bigger, more aggressive and are the ones attacking live stock, there being minimal problem with dingoes prior to the hybrid surge. Farmers in some regions of Australia are now licensed to reduce their numbers if they pose a threat to livestock. Unfortunately it is poorly controlled and people are taking dingo and dingo-hybrid alike.

While I disagree with a lot of what is said and certainly the tone of the video (with it's scary breathing noises every time a dingo appears on the screen, ridiculous), it serves a purpose which is to once and for all rebuke the unsupported nonsense of pet food manufacturers who claim wolves (or dogs) eat the stomach contents of their prey. They absolutely do not. It's another myth, this one popping up in the 80's, just after dogs were first noted to be "omnivorous", which was 1986 by Thurston!! They need grass and cereal like a cow needs a hamburger. A little bit off cooked or pureed veg, maybe even a little boiled brown rice / spud can be great stuff, but they wouldn't need it if we were feeding them whole animals, rats, birds, rabbits, eyes, ears, brains, adrenal glands (natural cortisone source), pancreas, little stomach contents (can't be avoided in smaller animals), meat, bone, hair.....prepared veg covers a lot of the missing bases.