60 NAMA developers on €100,000 salary each

Slideshowbob

According to the main headline in the Sindo today that's what they are on.

So what value is the State getting for this money?

Will they be entitled to public pensions too?:eek:

dvpower

Slideshowbob wrote: »

According to the main headline in the Sindo today that's what they are on.

So what value is the State getting for this money?

Will they be entitled to public pensions too?:eek:

Having your debts transferred to NAMA doesn't mean you are employed by NAMA, so public service pensions don't apply.

Nor does it mean that the companies themselves are necessarily in trouble, but even if all of these 60 companies were in deep trouble owing 100s of millions each to NAMA, would 100k be a high salary to manage such a company?

[Jackass]

This has been reported several times over the last number of years, but what I don't understand is, what exactly are they doing for this money? If there was justification for it then fair enough, but the sindo put it that they were being paid for their "co-operation" as opposed to any actual benefit or constructive input.

Anyone care to shed some light on this? I don't want to be cynical straight off the bat, I'm just finding it difficult to imagine what input they are making to warrant this sort of level of payment. Some earning as much as €200,000 per year...the same as the Taoiseach...

juan.kerr

It's not clear whether this is on top of any salary they are paying themselves or in place of it.

I would have assumed that many of these 'companies' are shells of their former selves with skeleton staff and little work going on?

dvpower

[Jackass] wrote: »

This has been reported several times over the last number of years, but what I don't understand is, what exactly are they doing for this money? If there was justification for it then fair enough, but the sindo put it that they were being paid for their "co-operation" as opposed to any actual benefit or constructive input.

Anyone care to shed some light on this? I don't want to be cynical straight off the bat, I'm just finding it difficult to imagine what input they are making to warrant this sort of level of payment. Some earning as much as €200,000 per year...the same as the Taoiseach...

They are being paid to manage their companies, many containing large property portfolios.

I'm not intimatly familiar with these companies, but I'd guess that 100k isn't an unreasonable salary for doing this - at least that's what NAMA obviously feel.

Dob74

dvpower wrote: »

They are being paid to manage their companies, many containing large property portfolios.

I'm not intimatly familiar with these companies, but I'd guess that 100k isn't an unreasonable salary for doing this - at least that's what NAMA obviously feel.

I have no problem with anyone earning 100k or more as long as they are worth that.
Why a property developer should earn 100k for managing a bankrupt company is beyond me.
There is no property development going on. Many properties lie idol and are not returning a penny in rent.

What NAMA mean by cooperating that is the million dollar question. If a developer gives up his mansion moves to an average sized house pumps all his available capital back into the company(or companies) pay him 100k.
But if he is still sitting in his stately mansion stasshing his money away from NAMA than its luquidation time.

dvpower

Dob74 wrote: »

I have no problem with anyone earning 100k or more as long as they are worth that.

NAMA presumably think they are worth it.

Dob74 wrote: »

Why a property developer should earn 100k for managing a bankrupt company is beyond me.

Why? Is a bankrupt company less complex to run than a solvent one?

Dob74 wrote: »

There is no property development going on. Many properties lie idol and are not returning a penny in rent.

And many aren't idle, are returning rent and require management. Even empty properties require management.

ArmaniJeanss

[Jackass] wrote: »

This has been reported several times over the last number of years, but what I don't understand is, what exactly are they doing for this money? If there was justification for it then fair enough, but the sindo put it that they were being paid for their "co-operation" as opposed to any actual benefit or constructive input.

Anyone care to shed some light on this? I don't want to be cynical straight off the bat, I'm just finding it difficult to imagine what input they are making to warrant this sort of level of payment. Some earning as much as €200,000 per year...the same as the Taoiseach...

As I understand it, the theory is as follows.

Developer Paddy has 4 estates in Mayo and 2 in Sligo.

His expertise is in the following areas....
a) He knows the local market, the places to advertise sales/rentals, the times of year when sales are most likely. Perhaps even down to knowing potential buyers and what price they may be willing to pay. The NAMA HQ people wouldn't know this.

b) Paddy knows what the situation is with each estate, which houses are finished, which still need work doing, what commitments have been made by the locals councils to him re electricity connection, gas, roads, sewerage, lighting and stuff like that. And conversely he knows what commitments and agreements have been made by him to the council for the same things.
If Paddy wasn't enticed to stick around then it would cost the NAMA HQ people a fortune to figure all this stuff out for every estate.

c) Where work needs to be done, Paddy knows the local labour force. He can source electricians, carpenters, plumbers and labourers of good quality in a faster time than NAMA HQ people could, and they would have to spend money advertising and interviewing and such like.

Slideshowbob

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

As I understand it, the theory is as follows.

Developer Paddy has 4 estates in Mayo and 2 in Sligo.

His expertise is in the following areas....
a) He knows the local market, the places to advertise sales/rentals, the times of year when sales are most likely. Perhaps even down to knowing potential buyers and what price they may be willing to pay. The NAMA HQ people wouldn't know this.

b) Paddy knows what the situation is with each estate, which houses are finished, which still need work doing, what commitments have been made by the locals councils to him re electricity connection, gas, roads, sewerage, lighting and stuff like that. And conversely he knows what commitments and agreements have been made by him to the council for the same things.
If Paddy wasn't enticed to stick around then it would cost the NAMA HQ people a fortune to figure all this stuff out for every estate.

c) Where work needs to be done, Paddy knows the local labour force. He can source electricians, carpenters, plumbers and labourers of good quality in a faster time than NAMA HQ people could, and they would have to spend money advertising and interviewing and such like.

Paddy also borrowed a shed load of money for an over-valued site - he doesn't really have a clue about underlying economic trends. 100k a year, like Cheryl, because he's worth it

AlekSmart

dvpower wrote: »

NAMA presumably think they are worth it.

Why? Is a bankrupt company less complex to run than a solvent one?

And many aren't idle, are returning rent and require management. Even empty properties require management.

My own take is that paying these former stars of Irish Entrepreneureship 100G's apiece is great value IF it keeps them away from the High and Supreme Courts.

NAMA and,inter alia,the Irish Government are keenly aware of the thin line being trod here.

The "Developers" have made themselves indispensible and will,if my gut feeling is correct,emerge from this in a far healthier state than most,if not all,of their suppliers and customers.

K-9

juan.kerr wrote: »

It's not clear whether this is on top of any salary they are paying themselves or in place of it.

I would have assumed that many of these 'companies' are shells of their former selves with skeleton staff and little work going on?

From the level of paperwork that has to be given to NAMA I'd doubt it tbh. NAMA to all intents and purposes takes over the running of the company.

Going Forward

dvpower wrote: »

They are being paid to manage their companies, many containing large property portfolios.

I'm not intimatly familiar with these companies, but I'd guess that 100k isn't an unreasonable salary for doing this - at least that's what NAMA obviously feel.

It's the least they deserve, look at the good theyve done the country, they put on the green jersey years ago.

They have fallen on hard times now, I even heard that some of their wives somehow connived them into signing over much of their material belongings.

We owe these developers big time.

leeroybrown

AlekSmart wrote: »

My own take is that paying these former stars of Irish Entrepreneureship 100G's apiece is great value IF it keeps them away from the High and Supreme Courts.

Exactly. I don't know why so few people realise this. In most cases these €100k salaries are essentially (legal) bribes to the developers to prevent them from frustrating the NAMA process through legal action. I really don't like that we have to do it but it appears to represent better value for money for the state than spending twice as much on doing it through the courts.

All other factors are secondary.

serfboard

leeroybrown wrote: »

In most cases these €100k salaries are essentially (legal) bribes to the developers to prevent them from frustrating the NAMA process through legal action. I really don't like that we have to do it but it appears to represent better value for money for the state than spending twice as much on doing it through the courts.

That's what I guessed as well. The choice is pay the developer 100K for their 'co-operation' or pay lawyers many multiples of that, and take years in the process.

Mr.Micro

leeroybrown wrote: »

Exactly. I don't know why so few people realise this. In most cases these €100k salaries are essentially (legal) bribes to the developers to prevent them from frustrating the NAMA process through legal action. I really don't like that we have to do it but it appears to represent better value for money for the state than spending twice as much on doing it through the courts.

All other factors are secondary.

It remains to be seen whether this strategy will pay off, literally. I have my doubts, we have to take the word of NAMA itself that this way is effective. The taxpayer is the loser at the end of the day while the developers have the choice of a cushion to help them back to reality. Sounds like a gentlemens club to me.

Laminations

Idlike to know exactly what they are being paid for. Seeing as they are being paid so much out of the public purse I think we need weekly itineraries so we can see the value we are getting.

The Quinns have been compelled to cooperate by the courts, I can't see why a reasonable developer for the sake of reputation (or just out of embarrassment for the situation they got themselves in where NAMA was set up as a recovery vehicle) wouldn't automatically cooperate in trying to repay monies their company owes. Also did any of these payees give personal guarantees that they are now being protected against? Should we start paying Sean Quinn if he cooperates? What does 'manage a portfolio' mean. The stuff is in most cases built. It just needs to be rented or sold at the best prices. I'm not seeing the value added. If I messed up in work so bad that they needed to get forensic accountants in to find my mistakes, they wouldn't choose to pay me instead to sort through my work and highlight my errors, just cos it was cheaper and because I had personal experience - they'd fire me and demand cooperation....I'd imagine. I don't work in finance.

dvpower

Laminations wrote: »

they'd fire me and demand cooperation....

Would you cooperate after being fired?

leeroybrown

Mr.Micro wrote: »

It remains to be seen whether this strategy will pay off, literally. I have my doubts, we have to take the word of NAMA itself that this way is effective. The taxpayer is the loser at the end of the day while the developers have the choice of a cushion to help them back to reality. Sounds like a gentlemens club to me.

I have doubts too but I definitely believe that in some cases these salaries are a far cheaper option than the alternative legal process. Some of the high profile NAMA cases have already shown that.

Laminations wrote: »

If I messed up in work so bad that they needed to get forensic accountants in to find my mistakes, they wouldn't choose to pay me instead to sort through my work and highlight my errors, just cos it was cheaper and because I had personal experience - they'd fire me and demand cooperation....I'd imagine. I don't work in finance.

The difference is who has to take the costly court action. If you were dismissed from work you'd be the one paying a solicitor to lodge proceedings with the High Court. The employer can then instruct their solicitor to obstruct you through legal means at a modest cost to them in the hope you'll run out of money and give up. In the NAMA case they're the ones chasing the proceedings with some developers sitting back and deliberately frustrating the process at every step.

AlekSmart

leeroybrown wrote: »

Exactly. I don't know why so few people realise this. In most cases these €100k salaries are essentially (legal) bribes to the developers to prevent them from frustrating the NAMA process through legal action. I really don't like that we have to do it but it appears to represent better value for money for the state than spending twice as much on doing it through the courts.

All other factors are secondary.

I too agree that this approach is a,rock and hard-place,solution which has us,the contributing classes,doing what we do best.....paying for stuff.

However,there is a twin prong to this "compliance money",and that is the preservation of the Legal Status-Quo.

Many threads on Boards over the past 5 years have delved into the broad-based collapse of everything we considered to be sound and well founded.

Equally there were,and still are,many calls for entirely new Legal and Political rules to govern how these "Developers" are allowed to proceed with their business,particularly when it involves large scale deleriction of responsibilities,eg Priory Hall scenarios.

One only has to study the various form books of the Political Parties and groupings to realize that high pressure,strategically positioned Lobbyists and Groups remain very firmly in place,continuing to dictate the pace the rest-of-us live our lives at.

It's quite depresing to realize that "The Courts" would be the primary weapon in any disaffected Developers arsenal and in that role could frustrate any and all attempts to impose a new-order on these old Captains of Industry.

Even worse is the powerlessness of the same Courts to act decisively in support of the many ordinary people left shafted and sore by the "Lads"...

Judgements,orders,and the entire panopoly of Legal documentation can,it appears,be shrugged off by a well "lawyered Up" developer...whereas his disgruntled customers would easily recieve a custodial........

But as it stands,yes €100,000 per anum is probably the going rate for State Sponsored Bribery right now.....with a cost-of-living review due along soon !!!!! :mad:

Dob74

dvpower wrote: »

NAMA presumably think they are worth it.


Why? Is a bankrupt company less complex to run than a solvent one?


And many aren't idle, are returning rent and require management. Even empty properties require management.

NAMA may think they are worth it, this only shows what clowns NAMA are.

If a company is bankrupt or has no money it wont be very active. If you are building a few hundred housing units i am sure you would be busy. Watching them sit there would take alot less time and energy.

NAMA are keeping rent and house prices up by not letting the market correct its self. Time to sell off the ghost estates, if you get a penny on the dollar so be it. Letting them sit and rot into nothing is worse. Time to do something rather than this sit and wait approach.

dvpower

Dob74 wrote: »

NAMA may think they are worth it, this only shows what clowns NAMA are.

Obviously you have a far better insight.

Dob74 wrote: »

If a company is bankrupt or has no money it wont be very active. If you are building a few hundred housing units i am sure you would be busy. Watching them sit there would take alot less time and energy.

If a company has nearly €50bn in assets to manage, they might be very busy indeed - they might want to hire the people with deep knowledge of those assets to help with that mangement.

Dob74 wrote: »

NAMA are keeping rent and house prices up by not letting the market correct its self. Time to sell off the ghost estates, if you get a penny on the dollar so be it. Letting them sit and rot into nothing is worse. Time to do something rather than this sit and wait approach.

A fire sale? Why didn't the clowns over at NAMA think of that?