Civil Service Sick Leave Costs State Over €300m Extra P/A Compared To Private Sector

daltonmd

n97 mini wrote: »

Do you think employers should pay sick pay out of their own pockets, or should they get reimbursed from the employees' social contributions?

Wouldn't this mean that the state is still paying for the sick leave?

n97 mini

daltonmd wrote: »

Wouldn't this mean that the state is still paying for the sick leave?

Only if the state is paying the employees' social contributions in the first place.

daltonmd

8under wrote: »

In the civil service, is it not true that if you are off sick on a Friday and on the following Monday, the absence is counted as 4 days even though two of the days (Saturday and Sunday) are not normal working days.

Do they count it the same way in the private sector ? I doubt it. This would also skew the figures.

Where did I say that was the case?

You are talking about Mon - Fri staff. Not all CS work those hours.

Prison officers work back to back rosters. Their week starts on a Saturday.

One Week they are due on. Sat/Sun - Wed/Thurs. The next week they are due on, Mon/Tues and Fri. If they are ill for that week, or lets say for the 2 week, 14 days are accounted as sick when they were only due to work 7.

For a Mon- Fri CS worker that same two week absence is counted as 10 days, not 14.

sarumite

daltonmd wrote: »

It's a back to back roster, not back to back shifts. It is an extended work day of 11 hours, not 8 so it's classed as one working day.

They are not paid two days.

Thats a fair point. Though I was thinking of when I used to works shifts. I was doing 12 hour shifts back then, whereas now I do 8 hours. If I miss two days working 12 hours shifts, then I am officially sick for 2 days, eventhough I have missed the equivalent of three days worth of hours if I am working an 8 hour shift. So the sick leave aspect kind of works both ways shift wise, whereby sometimes you miss more work hours, but clock up fewer missed 'days' and other times you miss fewer work hours and clock up more missed 'days'.

daltonmd

n97 mini wrote: »

Only if the state is paying the employees' social contributions in the first place.

Sorry, let's go back.

You said:

"If employers have to pay sick pay then it's only fair they should get a cut of employees' social insurance contributions."

Now the employee pays these to the state, as you know, if you are now suggesting that they pay these to the employer then you weren't very clear.

sarumite

8under wrote: »

In the civil service, is it not true that if you are off sick on a Friday and on the following Monday, the absence is counted as 4 days even though two of the days (Saturday and Sunday) are not normal working days.

Do they count it the same way in the private sector ? I doubt it. This would also skew the figures.

For a sick certificate, many (although it is impossible to say all) will include saturday and sunday as the time the certificate is valid. I.e if you are have a certificate for five days, Saturday and Sunday are included in those days.

Gumbo

8under wrote: »

In the civil service, is it not true that if you are off sick on a Friday and on the following Monday, the absence is counted as 4 days even though two of the days (Saturday and Sunday) are not normal working days.

Do they count it the same way in the private sector ? I doubt it. This would also skew the figures.

Im in an LA, if im out sick Friday and the following Monday, i need a doctors note and the sick leave is counted as Fri, Sat, Sun & Mon. Something to do with weekends counted as rest days IIRC.

Glinda

daltonmd wrote: »

For a Mon- Fri CS worker that same two week absence is counted as 10 days, not 14.

Not true. Two week absence is counted as fourteen days throughout the CS. If you are absent Friday and Monday this counts as four days.

n97 mini

daltonmd wrote: »

Sorry,

Don't worry about it.

daltonmd wrote: »

Now the employee pays these to the state, as you know, if you are now suggesting that they pay these to the employer then you weren't very clear.

We can split hairs. Employees pay social contributions. If employers get reimbursed from these for paying sick pay, then I'm sure you won't object?

daltonmd

sarumite wrote: »

If I miss two days working 12 hours shifts, then I am officially sick for 2 days, eventhough I have missed the equivalent of three days worth of hours if I am working an 8 hour shift.

Exactly and in the Prison Service if you miss 3 eleven hour shifts in the "short week" your actual sick leave count is 7 days.

sarumite wrote: »

So the sick leave aspect kind of works both ways shift wise, whereby sometimes you miss more work hours, but clock up fewer missed 'days' and other times you miss fewer work hours and clock up more missed 'days'.

But it's not in the prison service. If your day is 20 hours long and you miss that day sick it is one day sick, if you are part time and work 4 hours then if you miss that day sick then it is one day sick.

It should be the same over weeks as well as over days.

daltonmd

n97 mini wrote: »

Don't worry about it.

I'm not. You said:

"If employers have to pay sick pay then it's only fair they should get a cut of employees' social insurance contributions."

You then said:

Only if the state is paying the employees' social contributions in the first place.

The state doesn't pay the contributions, the employees do.

n97 mini wrote: »

We can split hairs. Employees pay social contributions. If employers get reimbursed from these for paying sick pay, then I'm sure you won't object?

No splitting hairs about it.

If the employee continues to pay the social contributions to the state and the employer pays the sick leave directly to the employer and is then reimbursed by the state - isn't the state still paying the sick leave?

Very clear to me.

daltonmd

Glinda wrote: »

Not true. Two week absence is counted as fourteen days throughout the CS. If you are absent Friday and Monday this counts as four days.

I don't think so Glinda. I know for prison officers that is the case, for teachers 2 weeks is counted as 12 days and some parts of the CS are counted as 10 days.

8under

daltonmd wrote: »

I don't think so Glinda. I know for prison officers that is the case, for teachers 2 weeks is counted as 12 days and some parts of the CS are counted as 10 days.

I asked the question because as a former cs, I seem to recall the situation was that you were required to submit a medical certificate for a Friday & Monday absence because you could not take uncertfied leave (for more than two consecutive days in one absence). The absence was counted as 4 continous days including Saturday & Sunday not two sick days.

I expect that this would affect the data in relation to days taken but not in relation to the cost.

n97 mini

daltonmd wrote: »

and the employer pays the sick leave directly to the employer

Do you object to employers being re-imbursed for sick pay or not?

woodoo

daltonmd wrote: »

Actually it's worse than that. I know prison officers and they told me that they work back to back shifts. Their week begins on Saturday and if they fall ill that week and return to work the next Saturday it is counted as 7 days sick, when in fact they were only due 3 days, Mon/Tues and Friday.

That has to skew the numbers.

I doubt that type of info will ever be printed in the Indo.

woodoo

daltonmd wrote: »

I don't think so Glinda. I know for prison officers that is the case, for teachers 2 weeks is counted as 12 days and some parts of the CS are counted as 10 days.

Proof?

n97 mini

daltonmd wrote: »

I know for prison officers that is the case,

Prison officers are probably not role models for sick leave. We're they caught operating a "buddy system" whereby they were carving up sick leave between themselves so as to maximise overtime.

BFDCH.

same thing is done by the porters in one of the capitals biggest hospitals.

Glinda

None of the above are civil servants. Civil servants all have the same sick leave rules and count their sick days the same way, with weekend days included.

Maybe you mean public servants? They are a much more diverse bunch and have lots of different arrangements depending on employer.

Lumbo

Looks like the Labour Court is doing something about it.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0719/public-service-sick-pay-entitlements-to-be-halved.html

Sick leave entitlements for almost 300,000 public servants are to be halved following a Labour Court recommendation issued today.
1 of 1 [URL="javascript:void(0)"][/URL][URL="javascript:void(0)"][/URL]Uncertified sick leave entitlements are to be cut


The public service bill for sick pay costs around €550m a year.
Last year, €63.1m of the sick pay bill was due to illnesses not certified by a doctor.
Under the present scheme, public servants are entitled to six months of sick leave on full pay followed by six months on half pay within any period of four years.
After exhausting the first year of entitlements, they go onto a lower rate known as rehabilitation pay.
However, following today's recommendation issued by Labour Court Chairman Kevin Duffy, from 1 January 2014 the general entitlement will be halved to three months’ full pay and three months’ half pay.
Self-certified sick leave is to be cut from seven days in any year to seven days over a rolling two-year period.
This will take effect as soon as practicable.
Mr Duffy described the change as "one of major significance from the perspective of the State as an employer".
However, he also called it "reasonable and modest" compared to entitlements in other employment.
People experiencing "critical illness" will still be entitled to six months’ full pay and six months on half pay.
Today’s recommendation says that critical illness cover should be regarded as an exceptional and normally non-recurring occurrence.
The Labour Court accepts that management has discretion to decide how this is applied but recommended further talks with unions to agree a protocol including an independent appeals mechanism on how that discretion should be exercised.
It also recommends reform of rehabilitation pay.
Addressing an anomaly affecting workers recruited before 1995, it says no public servant on rehabilitation pay should receive less than social welfare benefits.
However, even where critical illness applies, the total period of entitlement including rehabilitation pay cannot exceed two years.
The court also recommends further talks regarding the entitlements of teachers.
They currently have an entitlement to one year's sick leave on full pay and different entitlements to uncertified sick leave.
Reacting to the report, General Secretary of the Public Service Executive Union Tom Geraghty said that their priority had been to maintain protection for people who were seriously incapacitated, and he believed they had succeeded in doing that.

ParkRunner

Lumbo wrote: »

Looks like the Labour Court is doing something about it.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0719/public-service-sick-pay-entitlements-to-be-halved.html

These measures should only affect those who abuse the uncertified sick leave system and those who are genuinely long term sufferers. At least those dedicated to providing a public service & who only take genuine certified sick days should not really be affected by this

christmas2012

some of them werent even seriously sick and getting six months on full pay?!?i mean wtf..?there is a saying about people in state jobs,you could stand on youre head and not get fired!these people are in cushy numbers there for life no questions asked..county councillors are the worst of the packet being honest,they dont even fix the roads near us they have been burdened with potholes that would wreck your car or a pedestrian trip over for ten plus years!and now there getting paid the household charge for what exactly on top of what they get from tax already..

Gumbo

christmas2012 wrote: »

some of them werent even seriously sick and getting six months on full pay?!?i mean wtf..?

In fairness, if your certified out of work sick for 6 months by a private sector doctor, something must be wrong above and beyond the common cold :rolleyes:

christmas2012 wrote: »

and now there getting paid the household charge for what exactly on top of what they get from tax already..

you should read up on the household charge payment figures.

christmas2012

In fairness, if your certified out of work sick for 6 months by a private sector doctor, something must be wrong above and beyond the common cold

ya...the yuppy flu ffs..

bamboozle

EF wrote: »

These measures should only affect those who abuse the uncertified sick leave system and those who are genuinely long term sufferers. At least those dedicated to providing a public service & who only take genuine certified sick days should not really be affected by this

i guess the problem is the amount of people taking the full 7 uncertified days each year, that's to be cut to 7 uncertified days every 2 years. that should have a big impact on productivity.

still waiting for the govt to announce the referendum on the closure of the Seanad...the biggest waste of tax payers money....the 1963 pawnbrokers bill was the last time it has rejected a dail bill.

Gumbo

christmas2012 wrote: »

ya...the yuppy flu ffs..

can you explain???

ParkRunner

bamboozle wrote: »

i guess the problem is the amount of people taking the full 7 uncertified days each year, that's to be cut to 7 uncertified days every 2 years. that should have a big impact on productivity.

Possibly, although those who aim to take the full 7 days uncertified sick leave each year are probably not the most productive workers in any case as they are demotivated I expect and don't see that taking the full allowance will wreck your promotion opportunities. In fairness it doesn't seem to be too difficult to get a sick cert in any case.

daltonmd

woodoo wrote: »

Proof?

From INTO

2.3.2 where time-tabled otherwise at primary and post-primary, each day’s absence on grounds of ill-health on which the teacher is scheduled to be in attendance shall count as two days sick leave in any week subject to a maximum of five days sick leave being reckoned for five school days in the same week.

2.3.3 Where sick leave absences span weekends, each intervening weekend shall count as two days.

daltonmd

Glinda wrote: »

None of the above are civil servants. Civil servants all have the same sick leave rules and count their sick days the same way, with weekend days included.

Maybe you mean public servants? They are a much more diverse bunch and have lots of different arrangements depending on employer.

Prison Officers are Civil Servants.

golden lane

i agree that people should not be paid for not going to work...unless they are certified sick.....

but there are some people getting paid..who have never ever been to work.....